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Nick C
October 6th, 2008, 02:17
Well it's happened, it seems Phil has decided to pull the plug permanently on the Alsphasim forums. With the wealth of information that there was on them, I find it hard to believe that this was in the best interest of the customers, although obviously it is less work for staff.

http://www.alphasim.co.uk/index2.html


Due to technical problems, both the forum and gallery are no longer accessible. The gallery will be re-instated as soon as practical, however after much consideration, we have decided not to re-instate the forum. We are confident that a leaner AlphaSim is the way forward and this increased efficiency will result in more and better models and scenery in the coming years.

Although this comes as no great surprise, I'm sorry to see them go.

harleyman
October 6th, 2008, 02:37
From just reading here it seems they were destined to just outright drop the ball..Looks like they just want to sell and offer no support..Just ask HellDiver.......:stop:

Nick C
October 6th, 2008, 03:18
I'm sure the idea to offer support via email still stands, although helldivers case is a worry. If Phil decides that he's not dealing with a customer, what other avenues are open? With the F1 wrapper system, it means products will be sold via other shops, you should be able to gain support via the retailers own support procedures in the future.

jmig
October 6th, 2008, 03:32
Maybe they will have a section in the F-1 forums?

harleyman
October 6th, 2008, 03:40
I would think once they hit other retailers they would insist there be some type of support offered if they were to sell the items......

Francois
October 6th, 2008, 03:43
I'm sure the idea to offer support via email still stands, although helldivers case is a worry. If Phil decides that he's not dealing with a customer, what other avenues are open? With the F1 wrapper system, it means products will be sold via other shops, you should be able to gain support via the retailers own support procedures in the future.

Retailers don't DO support :173go1:

Nick C
October 6th, 2008, 03:58
I hope so John.

I haven't had any problems with Phil or Alphasim as a customer and to be fair I hardly know anybody who has (with the exception of HD), but I think that forums in this day and age are a vital part of customer service allowing the developer to interact with customers directly.

The Alphasim forums, like many, were great if you were looking to buy a product. If the product pictures were not great in the shop, and they seldom aren't, you could go to the forum and often find pictures posted from users of that addon. Of course there are companies, such as Real Air, who don't have support forums, but they also have a small collection of addons. Alphasim, by comparison, have many projects under construction at any given time and frequent previews are key to marketing. Support can quickly be offered by the many Alphasim developers directly, rather than having to wait while they are sifted through by one person.

The Alphasim forums were also frequented by a community that enjoyed their products, fans, I wonder how those active members felt when they found their forum was closed? Pretty much the same way anybody would feel if their favourite forum was closed. Sadened...but then you would move to another forum...which means the customers would not be as frequent to your site, wouldn't it? I certainly visited the Alphasim forums far more frequently than their website.

Anyhow all of this, I guess, is irrelevant now.

Nick C
October 6th, 2008, 04:00
Retailers don't DO support :173go1:

They certainly should Francois. If I buy a product from YOU and it's faulty, I want YOU to offer me a refund :d

Speaking of support, I'll try to catch you on Skype this evening, I have a feeling I've been neglecting my duties and need a deadline!! :kilroy:

Ickie
October 6th, 2008, 04:03
Running forums is not automatic, its an awful lot of work, it can be a full time job.
You are always a target for all kinds of attacks.
Sometimes you have to deal with the nut cases, (who think they know everything and are always right).
Maybe Phil just had enough, and to quote Poppy the sailor,
"Its all I can stanz and I can't stanzs no more".
Its Phils choice not to re-open the forums and his alone.

Francois
October 6th, 2008, 04:11
I have a feeling I've been neglecting my duties and need a deadline!! :kilroy:

:icon_lol::icon_lol:

Real Life comes first for all those not stuck in this thing professionally :wavey:

IanP
October 6th, 2008, 04:21
Running forums is not automatic, its an awful lot of work, it can be a full time job.
You are always a target for all kinds of attacks.
Sometimes you have to deal with the nut cases, (who think they know everything and are always right).
Maybe Phil just had enough, and to quote Poppy the sailor,
"Its all I can stanz and I can't stanzs no more".
Its Phils choice not to re-open the forums and his alone.

Forums are, however, a lot easier than answering the same question thirty times - most people will at least look at, if not search, forums for answers before submitting a support ticket/e-mail. If the forums aren't there, and you can't put the answers to the most frequent questions in one place, then sticky it, you end up answering them twenty, fifty, two hundred times instead. At the same time, a lot of customers will talk about your products, share experiences, share repaints/updates/add-ons and answer all the new threads that the staff aren't around to.

Yes you have to deal with the nutcases, idiots and complaints, but that's part of being in business, not just running a forum.

Alphasim are, once again, making life more difficult for themselves than they need to. It only takes so many nails to make a coffin and I know of a lot of people that would love to see Alphasim fall, who will be falling over themselves laughing at this announcement. I'm the opposite, I want to see them survive and thrive, but certain members of their staff really could make life a lot easier for themselves at times.

Ian P.

jmig
October 6th, 2008, 04:55
It only takes one unanswered or brushed off question to lose a customer. Lose enough customers and you are out of business.

CodyValkyrie
October 6th, 2008, 05:41
Even Ariane has a forum....

I don't understand why some addon companies continue to think that providing less open support increases productivity. I could rattle off quite a few companies who have gone this route whos product line hasn't changed in the least.

Oh well. Not my company. While I like a few guys over there, I never was a big Alphasim supporter. I do however have a "couple" sweet gems from them, namely the Gee Bee and the LongEZ.

pernik
October 6th, 2008, 05:43
Can't say I am surprised, very disappointed but not surprised.
The way the forums were heading made this move inevitable. What I don't understand is the "announcement" which comes across as bad tempered and ill concieved.


Announcement : Customers must not be concerned by the moronic comment made by the SimFlight News page editor that 'AlphaSim has given up supporting its customers'. Such stupidity beggars belief. Like many developers, we do not require a forum to provide support, that will be done initially by e-mail and later by a dedicated support page which we are putting together. SimFlight should realise that the purpose of an FS News page is to simply announce things - not to make harmful subjective comments. We trust that the saner minds there will eventually prevail.

It's announcements like this and similar forum posts that irritate the hell out of me. The impression they give of the company is not the best, coming across as defensive, bombastic and not a little childish.

Oh well I can see my long standing support ( both financially and otherwise) of AS coming to an end.

CWOJackson
October 6th, 2008, 05:46
Kind of reminds me of LAGO.

michael davies
October 6th, 2008, 05:50
:banghead::censored::censored::banghead:



Deep breath




Big mistake IMHO

Regards

Michael

MudMarine
October 6th, 2008, 06:00
I'm with you MD. I stopped visiting the AS forums months ago. Due to the idiots and the real lack of support. I like AS, BUT I'm disapoint in the direction they seem to be going lately.......:isadizzy:

deimos256
October 6th, 2008, 06:07
with this move they have just lost my business, as i was trying to get on the forums for information about a purchase i was going to make, but now forget it.

michael davies
October 6th, 2008, 06:41
with this move they have just lost my business, as i was trying to get on the forums for information about a purchase i was going to make, but now forget it.


You see thats what the rub here is really all about, a large percentage of Alphasims products are team efforts.

By closing the forums and other 'adverse' actions, Alphasim is not only hurting customers but is seriously hurting the third party developers who helped make those products.

In some products a respectful% of the product fee goes to third party developers, not to Alphasim. People not buying isn't hurting Alphasim as much as its hurting the fringe that prop up Alphasim.

This isn't a case of please buy from someone you disagree with to help support the fringe and often important minions, its a case of actions taken by 'some' having an adverse impact on other innocent parties.

Closure of the forums will generate less interest and lower sales, thats a no brainer before it even started, lower sales will effect those on the outer fringes the hardest, not the inner core.

If you cut too much fat and skin off the carcass your only left with a pile of dead bones.

Best

Michael

deimos256
October 6th, 2008, 06:53
well hopefully these developers will move their efforts elsewhere, didnt a scenery team recently pull their stuff off AS? Maybe they knew this was coming

S
October 6th, 2008, 06:55
Crap. That place nearly felt like a virtual home to me. I don't like this at all.

CodyValkyrie
October 6th, 2008, 06:57
Crap. That place nearly felt like a virtual home to me. I don't like this at all.
You were one of the people I was referring to when I meant friends! Don't you work for or with AS? If my assumption was wrong, my apologies!

tigisfat
October 6th, 2008, 07:05
having been booted off the alphasim forums some time ago, I'm personally at no loss.:costumes:


I do have to say, however, that we shouldn't make a big deal out of this. Most manufacturer's forums are no more than clubhouses these days. I have respect for the amount of effort it takes to run a forum. Forums are probably costly monetarily as well. It's no secret that Alphasim has not been highly lucrative for all involved. There comes times when every business, for better or worse, must cut their overhead.

That being said, the best support I've recieved for Alphasim products has been by going directly to the likes of Dan, Mike and others. I've never been turned down and I've never waited more than a day or two for detailed one-on-one support.

We've seen this before. Let us not judge a company or their products by the actions of one man. Alphasim is a consortium of talents.

We can't say that the company is going downhill when 2008 has seen top level, highly competitive releases of the utmost fidelity. Moving towards the release of boxed products will only increase their profitability and it's possible that some of the internal struggles there wil cease to exist.

:redf:Let us also ignore the angrily written comments that are now featured at the top of their news page.:redf:

S
October 6th, 2008, 07:11
You were one of the people I was referring to when I meant friends! Don't you work for or with AS? If my assumption was wrong, my apologies!
I'm not part of the AlphaSim team but I have created quite a few movies for them.

Forums are easy to control if you ask me. Not timeconsuming at all as long as you've got the self discipline to stick to your ROE.

Developers - Simply only add news like preview shots and new releases.

Admin - Simply said the tech guy who keeps the forum software healthy and running.

Moderators - They are the voice of the company. Make sure these guys know what is going on. They need to have excellent PR and marketing skills. They will handle the customer support.

And the golden rule, when opening a forum make sure you have crystal clear rules layed out for the moderator so that they know exactly how to respond to any situation. Nothing is worse than two moderators saying two different things.

I just wish we'd get a forum back. Even if it'd be very basic. It's not just a forum, it has developed itself into some sort of online community.

tigisfat
October 6th, 2008, 07:11
I just read the simflight comments. I don't know why Phil (or someone else) would make such an angry post on the Alphasim main page (http://www.alphasim.co.uk/index2.html):

"Customers must not be concerned by the moronic comment made by the SimFlight News page editor that 'AlphaSim has given up supporting its customers'. Such stupidity beggars belief. Like many developers, we do not require a forum to provide support, that will be done initially by e-mail and later by a dedicated support page which we are putting together. SimFlight should realise that the purpose of an FS News page is to simply announce things - not to make harmful subjective comments. We trust that the saner minds there will eventually prevail. "

I don't think the simflight comments are out of line. Alphasim has indeed given up on supporting customers VIA their forum. Simflight didn't say anything about Alphasim ceasing support all together. Here's what simflight said here (http://simflight.com/2008/10/alphasim-forums-off-line/#comments):

"It was pointed out by readers that the New Zealand based Alphasim has taken its forum off-line. There are no further indications as to why, but speculations run high in the (military) flightsim communities on various forums. Their ‘Coppermine’ based photo gallery is also off-line. Aphasim has had its share of forum ‘discussions’, from both sides, and recently published a first product through Flight1. Their website (http://alphasim.co.uk/index2.html)is still on-line.
Update: it is now confirmed that indeed Alphasim has given up on supporting its users via their forums and they are closed now."

S
October 6th, 2008, 07:14
tigisfat keep in mind that the original text might have been edited between the moment that simflight posted and now. Not saying this happened but this is what is tricky with such situations. It's hard to know that for sure unless someone saved the original page once it went up and can display the source.

I'm unsure as to what really happened but if this is indeed how it was written intentionally then AS in my opinion is out of line. Again, I can't be 100% sure about that.

michael davies
October 6th, 2008, 07:16
well hopefully these developers will move their efforts elsewhere, didn't a scenery team recently pull their stuff off AS? Maybe they knew this was coming

The scenery guys can because they own all of the product, one other plane developer did the same, I only provide a slice of the product, much as I'd like to write to AS and say thanks for all the fish and please remove my work, I cant, the product would become unsaleable and that would impact on other innocent parties ( many close friends ), thats an impact I find intolerable.

Best

Michael

JIMJAM
October 6th, 2008, 07:16
I have spent a ton of money with Alphasim and at one time bought just about everything they sold.
Then when their prices passed $40 and then broke $50 with, I think the A6, I nicely:d expresssed my concern about how expensive they were getting.
Man, the Alpha groupies attacked in force and I was ripped a new one. One was even a mod.
After getting roughed up and humiliated, I have NEVER poster there again.
All they do is bloat about how great the screenshots are.
Never mid the ****ty flight model or that 4 things work in the vr cockpit.
I will not miss em.

Pultacatt
October 6th, 2008, 07:20
I refrained from visiting the AS forums since their E.E. Lightning was in build; they released some WIP shots. Having grown up as a child in and around the beast in question I pointed out, in a very polite and constructive manner, that there were a few minor but quite visible discrepancies. I was ridiculed and debased openly by staff and patrons so I felt compelled to leave the forum with my tail between my legs. Lo and behold the actual designer contacted me via email and being the gentleman he is thanked me for my input and after conducting his own research he rectified the small issues in question.

I am sorry to see the forum go and so many people being affected by it's loss but as one person has already said it is Phil's decision and he has to go with it whether for good or bad.

JimJam I also have spent hundreds of dollars on AS products, picking up every release regardless as after all it was an AS product, since way back in 1999 and I agree that if you so much as whispered any concerns with the model, Flight Dynamics (their FD's being my biggest bone of contention with AS products except their latest F-105 which to be honest is a master piece) then you were effectively black balled beyond reason.

My support for AS waned quite quickly, forums can be both good or bad for a Dev but if managed properly are a true asset.

I share MD's opinion 100% and admire his outlook and attitude.

CWOJackson
October 6th, 2008, 07:41
Support


In need of some help? Don't worry! Here are some Frequently Asked Questions and guides!
The support section has recently been updated with revised guidelines for the new online store.



Installing your new purchase (http://www.alphasim.co.uk/h_install.html)
Navigating and using the new AlphaSim Online Store (http://www.alphasim.co.uk/h_store.html)

Need a more personal form of assistance? Please email alphasim1(AT)alphasim.co.uk if you have any technical problem, or question you'd like answering.

Problems regarding technical issues with the website or store should be directed to our forums.

Francois
October 6th, 2008, 07:51
Didn't see that yet..... :d Phil must be smoking New Zealand Sheep Wool or something ....

Some people..... :isadizzy:

harleyman
October 6th, 2008, 07:53
Didn't see that yet..... :d Phil must be smoking New Zealand Sheep Wool or something ....

Some people..... :isadizzy:




Better than Sheep Wool I think.........Maybe he just wants out and doesn't know how to pull the plug....

IanP
October 6th, 2008, 07:55
Apparently Phil feels the need now to resort to selective quotes when he doesn't like people reporting on what he's doing, to try and shift the emphasis from reality into "they're attacking me!"

As a previous Alphasim customer who was very seriously considering a number of their newer models (Liberator, Blackhawk, Longbow) until this latest burst of insanity, he's just cost me any further business with them. No forums I disagree with, but can live with. Factually inaccurate rants and misquotes to show how hard done by you are just make you look stupid.

An abnormally large number of FS sites seems to have had database failures recently and I sympathise greatly with those working to put them back together. Been there, done that, decided it was quicker to repopulate than repair, which made me very unpopular.

However, you don't just decide to close them because of a technical difficulty - or if you do, you say "we're sorry, but we are unable to resolve the problems which were caused by..."

Talking of a "leaner" company sounds like management speak for "we're going bust". Dropping back from an efficient to an inefficient support mechanism doesn't make sense regarding staff loadings. Then they wonder why people speculate?

Ian P.

jmig
October 6th, 2008, 07:57
You see thats what the rub here is really all about, a large percentage of Alphasims products are team efforts.

By closing the forums and other 'adverse' actions, Alphasim is not only hurting customers but is seriously hurting the third party developers who helped make those products.

In some products a respectful% of the product fee goes to third party developers, not to Alphasim. People not buying isn't hurting Alphasim as much as its hurting the fringe that prop up Alphasim.

This isn't a case of please buy from someone you disagree with to help support the fringe and often important minions, its a case of actions taken by 'some' having an adverse impact on other innocent parties.

Closure of the forums will generate less interest and lower sales, thats a no brainer before it even started, lower sales will effect those on the outer fringes the hardest, not the inner core.

If you cut too much fat and skin off the carcass your only left with a pile of dead bones.

Best

Michael

Michael, now may be the time to believe in the saying, "When one door closes, another one opens." Alphasim seemed to be a good model upon which small developers could work together.

IMO, from an outsiders POV, management became paranoid over the lost of revenue from pirates and began to have a "we vs. them" mentality. This was exacerbated by an individual who seems to have a very strong will and believes his opinion is the only correct one. It led to "them" becoming anyone who expressed the least bit of criticism. We are all witnessing the results.

Now may be the time for you and others like you to look for other outlets for your talents. Maybe to band together to form a new company based on the same model but with management who guides and steers in a manner that brings individual talents together for even better products.

Good luck!

CodyValkyrie
October 6th, 2008, 08:06
MD, I am PMing you. Check back shortly... I have an idea.

gajit
October 6th, 2008, 08:31
I admit that I am a full on Alphasim product fan - especially their rotary hangar. It will be disappointing if the forums have gone but if it means that Dan and the team are able to continue to improve the quality as well as quantity of products - then I will be happy.

They did have to put up with an awful lot of unnessary crap at times. It must be demoralising if you are putting 100% into it.

Gotta say that if it were my business I would have introduced much more control without losing the focus for genuine support and information.

ps - i notice that SimMarket has stopped reviews now on products which is a great shame as it saved me from falling for a lot of purchases.

Lightning
October 6th, 2008, 08:44
Now may be the time for you and others like you to look for other outlets for your talents. Maybe to band together to form a new company based on the same model but with management who guides and steers in a manner that brings individual talents together for even better products.

Good luck!

Already been done by a number of Alphasim contributors. :icon_lol:

Check out http://www.skysim.co.uk/home.htm for current and future releases by some of us.
Others may show up elsewhere, but rest assured WE are not dead or down and out! :a1451:

calypsos
October 6th, 2008, 08:54
I would have loved to have seen one little flurry of AS forum die-hards posting.....


Fantastic stuff Phil, now we will not have to waste time saying how 'awesome' or 'mindblowing' everything is, we can just fly the planes.....oh dear I have not actually bought any planes, just loved the hype:redf:

Having the forum was a great idea, it allowed (moderated, sometimes harshly) transparency of thier products, often those with problems could find the fix (or at least find out the lack of testing was the fault, not them) without e-mailing and waiting ages for a reply. As to saving time, with the usual number of snags, I think Dan will be spending weeks at the 'Customer Service' PC rather than the designing machine!

Pultacatt
October 6th, 2008, 08:56
Superb post Jmig.

Panther_99FS
October 6th, 2008, 08:56
"Boxed Products"

http://secure.simmarket.com/product_info.php?products_id=3247

http://secure.simmarket.com/product_info.php?products_id=3244

deimos256
October 6th, 2008, 08:58
i sent an email with a question i had, lets see how long it takes for a reply, this ought to be interesting

expat
October 6th, 2008, 09:04
That place nearly felt like a virtual home to me. I don't like this at all.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Nice to see you here Erik - consider it your "new" home!

The whole Alphasim experience leaves one with very mixed feelings. Once upon a time - on their boards AND their on-line shop - it was THE place for discussing and enthusing about classic military a/c. The fact that they indulged my interests by making almost every USN cold war era plane that were childhood favorites made them extra special. I valued the superior knowledge and shared enthusiasm of people posting there. I learned a heck of a lot about aviation and its history. This know-how was valuable and it is a sad loss now that it is no longer available as a research database. I had good experiences with support and admired how they would release older models as freeware - or build an "oddball" aircraft they knew only a few die hards craved and wouldn't be best sellers (sort of "Oh, what the heck, we'll make it anyway . . ") - both terrific customer goodwill builders IMHO.

But things change and life goes on. When they chopped the boards down a couple years back, that's when I found myself coming here and enjoying the same, and in many ways broader learning experiences, not to mention the comraderie, good nature and humor of SOH members, whereas by contrast, it was disappointing to sense a growing bad temperedness around AS. In any event, I wish them all the best of luck and continued success. My personal FS experience would not have been the same without them and I will remain a customer.

Expat

S
October 6th, 2008, 09:19
Well guys, I feel like stepping in here for a second. Just to show that there have been good cases too when it comes to their customer service. I've had to contact Phil a few times about a few issues I had about some of their products. Always had a reply within a day. Sometimes this brought a fix and sometimes he simply explained as to why he wouldn't change a certain thing, but always in a very polite and friendly manner. What more can you ask. Same goes for Dan. Always very supportive and driven about his products.

Pinch a sloth with a stick and you'll have a day to wait for a reaction, pinch a leopard with a stick and your next stop will be heaven's gate. Don't demand, ask kindly and politely, even if you feel you are 100% right to demand. In the end a nice and polite question usually gets a better result.

Why I say this, simply because I've seen those kind of rather blunt demands quite often on the AS support forum.

Well I think I'm just going to do some flying. Not the best of days for me today it seems.:isadizzy:

Lateral-G
October 6th, 2008, 09:22
I have spent a ton of money with Alphasim and at one time bought just about everything they sold.
Then when their prices passed $40 and then broke $50 with, I think the A6, I nicely:d expresssed my concern about how expensive they were getting.
Man, the Alpha groupies attacked in force and I was ripped a new one. One was even a mod.
After getting roughed up and humiliated, I have NEVER poster there again.
All they do is bloat about how great the screenshots are.
Never mid the ****ty flight model or that 4 things work in the vr cockpit.
I will not miss em.

See there's the thing with AS' forums....say ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, negative and your were soundly thrashed. Either by the AS fanboys or the mods. You either were a happy-happy, joy-joy customer with nothing but praise and goodness to say else you were thrashed, beat down, or tossed out and banned.

A business has to be able to handle the good criticism as well as the bad. How they handle the bad is even more a reflection on them (and the owner) than how they take the priase and acclaim.

Like I said in the FS9 forum about this topic...Phil's going to do damn well whatever he wants...and that's his right. However, in the process he just maybe screwing himself. of course we all know from past experience and situations with him that his temper and petulance often stand in the way of common sense and good business practice. He needs to learn to distance himself from the idiots. Every business attracts them. You can't help it when dealing with the public customer. Ask anyone that deals with customers on a regular basis and you'll get some fine examples of inane requests or comments. You need to take a deep breath, step back and realize you can't always fix stupid. By the same token, even though they may look and act stupid you can't ignore them and treat them that way. Because they're going to run off and tell all their stupid friends (and a few smart ones too) what lousy service they received, how poorly they were treated and no one should do business with AS ever again.

Shutting off a forum because you don't want to hear whiny customers, negative comments or the same question over and over again because you lack the patience and skill to do so only hurts the business in the end. especially after those forums were established to promote the business and product as well as support it. IMO the flight sim community/market is too small to piss of whatever customer base you might have.

-G-

harleyman
October 6th, 2008, 10:41
MD, I am PMing you. Check back shortly... I have an idea.




We're listening.......:d

Henry
October 6th, 2008, 10:44
A business has to be able to handle the good criticism as well as the bad. How they handle the bad is even more a reflection on them (and the owner) than how they take the priase and acclaim.
You can't help it when dealing with the public customer. Ask anyone that deals with customers on a regular basis and you'll get some fine examples of inane requests or comments. You need to take a deep breath, step back and realize you can't always fix stupid. By the same token, even though they may look and act stupid you can't ignore them and treat them that way. Because they're going to run off and tell all their stupid friends (and a few smart ones too) what lousy service they received, how poorly they were treated and no one should do business with AS ever again.



-G-
That is basic business
The Customer is always right even if they are not
rule #1 customers lie
rule #2 customers are stupid
of course thats not the majority but after a while
dealing with them that comes first
customer relations is an art, one need someone
who will do there best to fix a problem
with respect!
that is one of my real life occupations
its not always easy but i seldom get a problem i cannot fix
one way or another.
Its also not that easy running a Forum, the typed word can be
completely misunderstood by misreading etc etc
there are always 2 sides to every story.
I am not taking sides here as i do not frequent AS forums
but i would think that without a forum
one can still maintain customer support
take a look at AH they have no forum
and they have excellent customer support
sometimes airing problems out in the open
can cause even more problems.
Looking back over this thread it seems like 2 threads
1 over the forums and 1 over support
maybe the loss of one will make the other better
Just my thruppence :d
H

Mickey D
October 6th, 2008, 10:50
Hi there tigisfat. How are you doing? Hope you didn't think I was a jinx when my prophesy re. the English summer came true at Fairford.:kilroy:

jdhaenens
October 6th, 2008, 10:59
LOL...too quick on the fingers...

IanP
October 6th, 2008, 11:04
I'd say there were three issues here, not two.

1) Forums or lack thereof.
2) Support or lack thereof.
3) Attitude of certain members of staff.

Like I said before, I can only speak for myself, but closing the forums isn't a killer for me.

Support? I've had some very good experiences with Alphasim and some absolutely dire ones. The good ones I have had have been direct contact. As soon as the forum gets involved, basically if you weren't there to praise Alphasim to the heavens, you were scum to be ridiculed, ignored or, if you persisted, banned. They were great if you were one of the "in" crowd, and utterly useless if you weren't. This isn't a new thing, either. I started giving up on them back in the days of the Big E being their latest product. It's gone downhill ever since to the point where I actually didn't want to click on links that people sent me to the Alphasim forums.

Finally, and the killer for me, is that I've seen far too many petulant outbursts, downright untruths and childish rants from one person in the very recent past to consider sending any money his way. I feel really sorry for the developers trying to work around him, but he's blown it for them as well.

I know I'm not the only person who feels that way, and I'd go back to Alphasim with no problems given a serious change in attitude. I like their models, I have a lot of time for a number of their developers, but I can't see it happening. Hence I'll spend my pay on developers who don't want to treat me like dirt for not being sycophantic enough to them in public.

Ian P.

centuryseries
October 6th, 2008, 11:49
I have spent a ton of money with Alphasim and at one time bought just about everything they sold.
Then when their prices passed $40 and then broke $50 with, I think the A6, I nicely:d expresssed my concern about how expensive they were getting.
Man, the Alpha groupies attacked in force and I was ripped a new one. One was even a mod.
After getting roughed up and humiliated, I have NEVER poster there again.
All they do is bloat about how great the screenshots are.
Never mid the ****ty flight model or that 4 things work in the vr cockpit.
I will not miss em.

I hope you're not talking about the aircraft that I worked on. Before saying something is ****ty imagine the hours put in first. I can see why developers give up on the flightsim community with comments like that.

Contrary to what I'm reading a lot of us who either still work for AS, or the recently departed always tried to give sound advice on things.

I remember your feedback Jimjam on the Avsim forums, this was all taken as constructive criticism - we listened to what the posters had to say. While somethings might not have been updated for that product I certainly remembered them for the later ones.

It doesn't matter where you go there will always be 'fanboys' those were out of Alphasim mod control, we cannot censor comments about people liking things, that would be ludicrous. One thing that should've happened is that posters there should've used the search facility rather than posting the same question that at least one person had already asked in the past, thus saving dev time with quicker construction.

I don't agree with the forums being closed, but it is not in my control. If Phil decides he wants to close them thats his business decision, if I don't want to put up with a lack of advertising space I know what to do. :ernae:

Best Regards,

David
AlphaSim-Quid21 (well used to be lol)

SkippyBing
October 6th, 2008, 12:51
Before saying something is ****ty imagine the hours put in first. I can see why developers give up on the flightsim community with comments like that.

To be honest if you're charging money for something you can't really use the 'I put hours into it, what about my feelings' excuse, because the purchaser put hours in to earn the money to buy it.
I was put of ever buying anything from AS from the replies posted on the forums to anyone who had a criticism of a model, no matter how it was put. So I suppose scrapping them might improve sales...

michael davies
October 6th, 2008, 13:38
Michael, now may be the time to believe in the saying, "When one door closes, another one opens." Alphasim seemed to be a good model upon which small developers could work together.

Good luck!

Indeed, since Alphasim closed the door on new scenery products last year I was left with a carrier with no home to go to, that has been picked up by another company, the new CVN project has also been picked up by another company....I'm not going to get cuaght with all my eggs in one basket again LOL....seriously both companies are well respected and have general areas of expertise, each carrier fits a set time zone that suits each companies existing catalogue.

Many other Alphasim developers have moved to Skysim, some more may move over in due course, some may stay, some may go elsewhere and sadly some may just throw the towel in, I've had my hand on that door several times these last few months.

I dont agree with the forum closure, I dont think Alphasim set out to close the forums, they did have a genuine server crash and I think they took that as a gift horse to close the forums and save themselves a lot of work and back lash, their getting some now but no where near as much as if they had closed an up and running forum.

As others have said, there is nothing here that I can write publically or privately that will alter any of this, I've known Phil nearly ten years, when his mind is set its set.

The objective now is to minimise the damage done and try to ensure it never happens again.

Best

Michael

michael davies
October 6th, 2008, 13:40
MD, I am PMing you. Check back shortly... I have an idea.

Checked, will formulate a reply once things settle down around here LOL.

Kindest

Michael

Mickey D
October 6th, 2008, 13:53
well hopefully these developers will move their efforts elsewhere, didnt a scenery team recently pull their stuff off AS? Maybe they knew this was coming

;) It was blowing in the wind. And yes we are in the process of re-releasing them here www.sky-sim.co.uk (http://www.sky-sim.co.uk) at a more sensible price.

Something over which we had no control at AS.

vstudios
October 6th, 2008, 15:34
A much simpler system would suffice, (ticket support and knowledge base manager)

I fully agree, managing a forum is not as easy as everyone seems to think.

Bone
October 6th, 2008, 15:36
What a pisser. I'm going to miss the A.S. forum. I had to change my "name" to get on this one...it's nice to see some of the guy's here.

Formerly "Bone" on A.S..

Panther_99FS
October 6th, 2008, 15:37
;) It was blowing in the wind. And yes we are in the process of re-releasing them here www.sky-sim.co.uk (http://www.sky-sim.co.uk) at a more sensible price.

.

And if we could now only get some SkySim scenery screenshots....There are items I'm interested in purchasing...:kilroy::kilroy::kilroy:

mcjerkyls
October 6th, 2008, 16:56
while i may not post much, i have been a lurker for a good 4 years, and all this (forum) discussion got me on it, just wanted to say a big KUDOS to the SOH MODS, staff, donators, etc for a job extremely well done, always keeping a fantastic, social atmosphere, that is almost 100% unique to this forum. so friendly, helpful, non political which is a big plus, no fighting for the most part, just a great place to be.
-Steve

harleyman
October 6th, 2008, 17:15
Thats what keeps us all here and happy....Nice to see you post after all this time...There are truely good and unique folks here..:ernae:

Islander
October 6th, 2008, 17:49
Actually, I'm trespassing over here in the 'Land of FSX', as I still live in the past (FS9), but saw this thread, read through it, and thought I'd paraphrase some of my comments from the FS9 forum:

Though I've never posted much here at SOH, I've browsed the forum on a daily basis for two or three years- it's a friendly and relaxed environment with a huge resource of experience, ideas and assistance.

It would be unfair for me to witness the demise of the AS forums without thanking those who made it a fine place to share ideas, etc for such a long time. There are the developers and team members, past and present. There are the 'civilian' moderators who volunteered their time in an effort to keep us on track, and there are the members without whose ideas, assistance, screenshots and humour the whole thing would have deflated.
Thanks... all of you :applause::applause:.

It's a pleasant surprise to see so many of those characters posting here.
Fortunately for all of us, there's Sim-Outhouse :ernae: !"

piperarcherpilot
October 6th, 2008, 20:13
SimFlight was not out of line in my opinion. Just because you can make OUTSTANDING aircraft for FS, that doesnt mean you're mature.

AlphaSim is simply showing the public that they are very immature. Not good.

tigisfat
October 6th, 2008, 20:48
Hi there tigisfat. How are you doing? Hope you didn't think I was a jinx when my prophesy re. the English summer came true at Fairford.:kilroy:

How's it going? Did you attend RIAT, Duxford or farnborough? You'd think they wouldn't be held almost at the same time......

The food and beer was great, the weather wasn't!!:ernae: I've wanted to go since I was a child, I guess that ruined now....

tigisfat
October 6th, 2008, 20:49
Has anyone noticed that someone at AS took the 'mean message' down?

fsafranek
October 6th, 2008, 21:35
Has anyone noticed that someone at AS took the 'mean message' down?
Yea and personally I think it was a good thing to do. If you want a forum to post comments in then have one, but please keep the news to news.
:ernae:

Bone
October 7th, 2008, 01:52
Yea and personally I think it was a good thing to do. If you want a forum to post comments in then have one, but please keep the news to news.
:ernae:
How much do you guys want to bet that it was Dano who, once again, removed one of Phil's comments.

Panther_99FS
October 7th, 2008, 03:43
How much do you guys want to bet that it was Dano who, once again, removed one of Phil's comments.

What's the prize for the winner :ques:

SteveB
October 7th, 2008, 04:03
What's the prize for the winner :ques:

Free burial at sea with a partner of your choice :costumes:

Mickey D
October 7th, 2008, 12:42
Has anyone noticed that someone at AS took the 'mean message' down?

Yes but not the underhand jibe re. 'ageing scenery'. Par for the course though.

IMO Dano is a level young guy who at times finds himself between a rock and a hard place. I fortunately met him at Elvington just before he moved out.

jdhaenens
October 7th, 2008, 12:48
What are you supposed to do, update the scenery so it looks older?:costumes: ...and therefore more current?

Makes no sense to me...

thudpilot
October 7th, 2008, 16:45
JimJam I also have spent hundreds of dollars on AS products, picking up every release regardless as after all it was an AS product, since way back in 1999 and I agree that if you so much as whispered any concerns with the model, Flight Dynamics (their FD's being my biggest bone of contention with AS products except their latest F-105 which to be honest is a master piece) then you were effectively black balled beyond reason.

..... From the old goat who did the flight model for their F-105D.
..... Thank you very much Pultacatt! :ernae:

jmig
October 7th, 2008, 17:12
..... From the old goat who did the flight model for their F-105D.
..... Thank you very much Pultacatt! :ernae:
If it didn't require saying something positive about Alphasim, I would also speak highly on the Thud. However, since this isn't a "sing their praises" thread, I won't.

;)

:ernae:

Panther_99FS
October 7th, 2008, 17:14
I agree that if you so much as whispered any concerns with the model, Flight Dynamics (their FD's being my biggest bone of contention with AS products except their latest F-105 which to be honest is a master piece) then you were effectively black balled beyond reason.


I believe some of those FD designers are at SkySim now.

If this is the case, then it should be interesting to see how SkySim handles FD critique....

Bone
October 7th, 2008, 17:17
Hey, in all fairness to the man who runs A.S., he is an avid indoorsman...just needs to get out a little more.

Pultacatt
October 7th, 2008, 17:59
Panther, I agree it will be interesting to see how "they" handle constructive criticism whether the FD creators have moved to Skysim or anywhere else.

Their E.E. Lightning was pure fantasy despite being "tested by a real life Lightning pilot" etc, etc, etc - I could go on with a veritable list.

Alphasim FD's have been suspect and have never delivered the beans. This is my opinion no matter who's to blame (management, beta testers, or FD designer). Now to make this clear before I get gang flamed: Obviously this is how I feel and I am just one voice, I do not and will not speak for anyone else. To close this semi-rant I will defend AS in saying that FD's are NOT easy to get right as I know from first hand experience...

However their F-105 is almost perfect to the manual, about as good as you are going to get in FSX. We fly that model to the real world manuals we have been given by ex 105 aircrew and it performs perfectly, you step outside of the real world envelope and she (the model) will bite ya!

Thudpilot here's a nickle on the grass and a bravo zulu for a wonderful FD. Thank YOU very much for many hours of enjoyment (60+hrs and climbing in FSX).

michael davies
October 7th, 2008, 21:25
Panther, I agree it will be interesting to see how "they" handle constructive criticism whether the FD creators have moved to Skysim or anywhere else.

Their E.E. Lightning was pure fantasy despite being "tested by a real life Lightning pilot" etc, etc, etc - I could go on with a veritable list.

Alphasim FD's have been suspect and have never delivered the beans. This is my opinion no matter who's to blame (management, beta testers, or FD designer). Now to make this clear before I get gang flamed: Obviously this is how I feel and I am just one voice, I do not and will not speak for anyone else. To close this semi-rant I will defend AS in saying that FD's are NOT easy to get right as I know from first hand experience...

However their F-105 is almost perfect to the manual, about as good as you are going to get in FSX. We fly that model to the real world manuals we have been given by ex 105 aircrew and it performs perfectly, you step outside of the real world envelope and she (the model) will bite ya!

Thudpilot here's a nickle on the grass and a bravo zulu for a wonderful FD. Thank YOU very much for many hours of enjoyment (60+hrs and climbing in FSX).

I'm just mildly curious here, do you group helo FDEs in that statement above ? .

Regarding Skysim, I'm not sure any FD developers have moved over there yet ?, AS has its own bespoke FDE man, it used to be Jay McDaniel, now its Shane, as far as I know neither work for Skysim yet, I did the helo FDEs and I dont 'officially' work for Skysim yet ( read no models yet ready for release ). The Vixen FDE was done by the developer and the Hawk also by the developer, there doesnt seem to be a single focal FDE man at Skysim yet, but it is a growing team so that may come in the future.

Best

Michael

deathfromafar
October 7th, 2008, 22:10
Two statements here. First, the F-105 is absolutely a masterpiece in FS. Well done Thudpilot and all involved!

Secondly to MD, I will step out on a limb so to speak in saying that I think your Chopper FDE's are damn good considering the inherent limitations in FS you must deal with and the fact that it is virtually impossible to make a perfect Rotor flight model in MSFS. Having 12 hours of actual rotor time in my logbook, I understand the differences and similarities. You do fine work. Period! You mentioned Jay McDaniel. I feel Jay has few if any equals in his game. The guy has in my humble opinion has helped if not actually transformed flight modeling for FS. Shane seems to be doing a good job but no offense to him, I favor Jay's work recent or past. Out of about 3 dozen Alphasim models I have bought(if my count is correct,maybe more or less), I have had few things to fuss about. Figuring in the limitations of FS, the FDE's are pretty solid overall. I will say lastly, whenever I did find an issue either FDE or model related, it got fixed quickly.

fsafranek
October 8th, 2008, 00:31
I believe some of those FD designers are at SkySim now.

If this is the case, then it should be interesting to see how SkySim handles FD critique....

Just a gut feeling? In fact, none have. Skysim has it's own anyway.
:ernae:

Pultacatt
October 8th, 2008, 01:04
I'm just mildly curious here, do you group helo FDEs in that statement above ?Oh ohs... Now I'm in for it... :icon_lol:

MD I would never have a bad word for your work as you should know from our past email convo's a looong time ago but to clarify I wouldn't critique Helo FD's as I have no interest or flown Rotary Wings - Too unnatural form of flight for me (in other words I can't fly em for love nor money and instant respect for anyone who can).

I do however stand by my comment regarding AS's FD's. The visual models on the other hand have always been very good indeed, I have always bought the models on the understanding that the FD's would need tweaking.

Nick C
October 8th, 2008, 03:21
Well perhaps it's time to wrap up this thread. I think everyone has made their point about various topics, but really this was just a thread about a forum closing.

I'm still sad it's closed, but as has been proven in this forum and the FS9 forum, the Alphasim forum members are finding new homes.

I sent an order for an FSX B-24 last night with PayPal to Phil, it was actually a gift which I asked to be sent to Ian (a bribe to keep writing reviews for my site) and the order was fulfilled within twelve hours with no fuss, once again.

I hope Alphasim continue to make nice add-ons, they may not be perfect, but neither am I. I just hope one day they see sense and reinstate their forums.

Right, I'm off to see if we can sort out HD's issues.

Lightning
October 8th, 2008, 03:26
..... From the old goat who did the flight model for their F-105D.


And what a fight it was too, eh Thud ? :banghead:

That was the last beta test I was on.
Got unceremoniously dumped from all betas right after that.

paulb
October 8th, 2008, 03:41
Panther, I agree it will be interesting to see how "they" handle constructive criticism whether the FD creators have moved to Skysim or anywhere else.

Their E.E. Lightning was pure fantasy despite being "tested by a real life Lightning pilot" etc, etc, etc - I could go on with a veritable list.

Alphasim FD's have been suspect and have never delivered the beans. This is my opinion no matter who's to blame (management, beta testers, or FD designer). Now to make this clear before I get gang flamed: Obviously this is how I feel and I am just one voice, I do not and will not speak for anyone else. To close this semi-rant I will defend AS in saying that FD's are NOT easy to get right as I know from first hand experience...

However their F-105 is almost perfect to the manual, about as good as you are going to get in FSX. We fly that model to the real world manuals we have been given by ex 105 aircrew and it performs perfectly, you step outside of the real world envelope and she (the model) will bite ya!

Thudpilot here's a nickle on the grass and a bravo zulu for a wonderful FD. Thank YOU very much for many hours of enjoyment (60+hrs and climbing in FSX).

Just to pick up on the comment re the E. E. Lightning flight model. Allow me to share a few facts -
The flight model was built by Jerry Beckwith - probably one of the most expert people around when it comes to building flight models
I spent many hours testing the flight model against available data - eg official pilots notes and flight test reports by Roland Beaumont.
The flight model was tested and approved by a genuine ex RAF Lightning pilot.
The flight model was tested and approved by a genuine RAF fast jet instructor with experience on the Tornado and Hunter amongst others.

Is it perfect? The answer is obviously no because FS9 was never designed for fast jets - only GA aircraft and lumbering airliners. Also, I know that the fuel consumption rate is too low - something that we just could not fix to our satisfaction. However, I will still defend the flight model given the expertise and effort that went into it.

I am not looking to enter a debate here, I just wanted to share a few facts!

In terms of the demise of the Alphasim forums, I too am disappointed and think it a step in the wrong direction. But I have been retired for a little while now and obviously have no say in such matters.

Regards

Paul

fsafranek
October 8th, 2008, 04:05
Regards

Paul

Hi Paul. Good to see you.
:ernae:

paulb
October 8th, 2008, 04:18
Hi Paul. Good to see you.
:ernae:

Thanks Frank

I hope that you are well and continuing with your great work!

Regards

Paul

Panther_99FS
October 8th, 2008, 04:27
Just a gut feeling? In fact, none have. Skysim has it's own anyway.
:ernae:

Then there *should* be no problems...:jump:

michael davies
October 8th, 2008, 06:31
Oh ohs... Now I'm in for it... :icon_lol:

MD I would never have a bad word for your work as you should know from our past email convo's a looong time ago but to clarify I wouldn't critique Helo FD's as I have no interest or flown Rotary Wings - Too unnatural form of flight for me (in other words I can't fly em for love nor money and instant respect for anyone who can).

I do however stand by my comment regarding AS's FD's. The visual models on the other hand have always been very good indeed, I have always bought the models on the understanding that the FD's would need tweaking.


Thats ok, I was just curious, one cannot advance ones skills with out critical feedback.

Regarding not being able to fly them, sadly I dont subscribe to that, a good helo FDE should be able to be flown with a modicum of pleasure after a short while by any die hard fixed wing fan, not interested in the subject manner I can understand though, each to their own :applause:.

Best

Michael

Mickey D
October 8th, 2008, 10:34
Thanks Frank

I hope that you are well and continuing with your great work!

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul. :wavey: You're to young to retire. Can we tempt you back?

paulb
October 8th, 2008, 10:51
Hi Paul. :wavey: You're to young to retire. Can we tempt you back?

Hi mate

Thanks! :icon_lol:

But, sorry no........ I was with FS from its first incarnation through to FS9 - and I do still have FSX installed on my pc.

But the new technical challenges of FSX are a step beyond me :d. Also, I do realise that the customer is becoming ever more demanding in terms of 'bells and whistles'. I have no issue with that, but I dont think that I can measure up to the challenge.

Anyway, I wish you every success with your new scenery and your new home.

Best regards

Paul

tigisfat
October 8th, 2008, 23:14
being a pilot, I can't possibly understand how devs think 'flight dynamics based on research using the REAL flight manual' should even be a selling point. A manual may give you performance airspeed numbers, but it can't tell you how something should feel, fly, land, or build AOA.

The other side: Sometimes, customers think something should fly one way and it actually flies another. There are many self-described experts in the MSFS world that complain about perfectly realistic dynamics.

The truth: most of Alphasim's .AIR files are great and passable. Also, most of Alphasim's engine and thrust modelling is horrid and not passable. Lightly loaded jet attack aircraft don't need 2/3rds throttle just to start and stay rolling on the ground.

Pultacatt
October 8th, 2008, 23:59
Also, I do realise that the customer is becoming ever more demanding in terms of 'bells and whistles'. I have no issue with that, but I dont think that I can measure up to the challenge.Paul, I think you under estimate your abilities, if your previous work is anything to go by, and I think a lot of folk would agree with me.

At the risk of protracting this conversation I will just say this; the E.E. Lightning was a superb model, the AS F-105 of its day but by way of visual model, it really was stunning no two ways about it and stands even now as testament to your design "magic".

Now please understand that with complete respect for yourself and anyone else who worked on that product the FD was still way out of the ball park no matter who created it, his reputation, the work that went into it, testing it etc. To be able to hold an approach and land a Lightning, with a full fuel weight, 70kias below its real world figures says it all, let alone the fuel burn (which is fixed by bumping the fuel scalar to 4.5 giving 40mins unrefuelled flight time with 5 mins on reheat).

I could write a tome about the AS Lightning but Paul I really hate to speak out like this especially as you mention the amount of hard work that went into producing it but the way that AS marketed the product and the manner in which their forum clientele (inc Mr Beckwith) and its owners treated those that tried to assist its design team with very, very polite, well intentioned and constructive critique was deplorable. This was my point and I am very sorry to have upset you, that was far from my intention because even though I rewrote the FD the aircraft was still yours, it looked superb, it was the "mutts", still is and am very grateful that you created it.

To the rest of the SOH people reading this please accept my apologies for taking this thread off topic slightly. :redf:

paulb
October 9th, 2008, 09:14
Paul, I think you under estimate your abilities, if your previous work is anything to go by, and I think a lot of folk would agree with me.

At the risk of protracting this conversation I will just say this; the E.E. Lightning was a superb model, the AS F-105 of its day but by way of visual model, it really was stunning no two ways about it and stands even now as testament to your design "magic".

Now please understand that with complete respect for yourself and anyone else who worked on that product the FD was still way out of the ball park no matter who created it, his reputation, the work that went into it, testing it etc. To be able to hold an approach and land a Lightning, with a full fuel weight, 70kias below its real world figures says it all, let alone the fuel burn (which is fixed by bumping the fuel scalar to 4.5 giving 40mins unrefuelled flight time with 5 mins on reheat).

I could write a tome about the AS Lightning but Paul I really hate to speak out like this especially as you mention the amount of hard work that went into producing it but the way that AS marketed the product and the manner in which their forum clientele (inc Mr Beckwith) and its owners treated those that tried to assist its design team with very, very polite, well intentioned and constructive critique was deplorable. This was my point and I am very sorry to have upset you, that was far from my intention because even though I rewrote the FD the aircraft was still yours, it looked superb, it was the "mutts", still is and am very grateful that you created it.

To the rest of the SOH people reading this please accept my apologies for taking this thread off topic slightly. :redf:

No problem my friend!

As I said, I do not want to enter a debate. It was just that a huge amount of love and effort (for not a huge reward) went into the Lightning. So, I guess that I am just being a 'lion looking after its cubs'! :icon_lol:

Best regards

Paul

centuryseries
October 9th, 2008, 12:31
being a pilot, I can't possibly understand how devs think 'flight dynamics based on research using the REAL flight manual' should even be a selling point. A manual may give you performance airspeed numbers, but it can't tell you how something should feel, fly, land, or build AOA.

The other side: Sometimes, customers think something should fly one way and it actually flies another. There are many self-described experts in the MSFS world that complain about perfectly realistic dynamics.

The truth: most of Alphasim's .AIR files are great and passable. Also, most of Alphasim's engine and thrust modelling is horrid and not passable. Lightly loaded jet attack aircraft don't need 2/3rds throttle just to start and stay rolling on the ground.

Well (Hi Walker),

Using a manual for flight dynamics can provide the 'feel' of the aircraft - by the performance figures, lift characteristics and roll rates. However, as you rightly state, some people think aircraft should fly differently, and then there are the Mach 2 at sea level crowd who complain the aircraft wobbles like f*** at 500 feet and Mach 2 who don't read the manuals!!

Cees Donker
October 22nd, 2008, 01:17
I still fly the Lightning a lot! It's one of my favorite planes ever made for FS! Thanks for the effort Paul.

:wavey:

Cees