Ship AA DP Question

[Blood_Hawk23]

Stuart,

Keep them coming. These look great.

I'll take a peek at the DP if you'd like. I'll let you know if anything is out.

I'm working on some WWI DPs for your Royal Navy ships. Atleast the ones for the Tondern Raid. I have to make a new one for the Revenge. You have it as an aircraft carrier. Boxes are even shaped like one. Its about half way done. I have the Cruisers finished. After the Revenge I have the Destroyers left.

Till Later,

John

[stuart277]

Hi John:wavey:
Thanks for the offer to check out the DP's. The offset and swivel limit of the AAGuns may need to be looked into. I am not too sure of what to do with these. Pitch is Ok.
The DP's take longer to do than the model's, with the starting and restarting the mission builder to check gun positions.
(Just thought of something, I could set the tracer to all tracers, that might be helpful.)

Sorry about the Revenge (and all the RN Battleships).:icon_redface:
I thought I used the DP from the SHA_PENN.
I changed the MISC_DATA and EXTRA lines to reflect the Queen Elizabeth and the

[MISC_DATA]
unit_family=5
category=17
allegiance=4
min_speed=0
cruise_speed=25
max_speed=45
entered_service=8/3/15

[EXTRA.0]
location=0.0,0.0,71.2
effect=fx_wake_m

[EXTRA.1]
location=0.0,0.0,-75.0
effect=fx_stern_m

[EXTRA.2]
location=0,28.0,4.0
effect=fx_smokestack

[EXTRA.4]
location=0.0,0.0,71.2
effect=fx_bow_s

Cheers for now.
Stuart
PS.
Should have some IJN Destroyers out by the end of next week, the models are done, just need to do the DP's. (maybe the week after next)

[Blood_Hawk23]

hey Stuart,

I'm looking over the DPs. Check the round weights they are very high. 4444oz for one round? would be 277.75 lbs. oh wait thats for the 200mm main guns. A little high I have 242.5. At 277lbs that would include the powder charge. you could leave it. not sure if it will throw off the ballistics or not.

Max rounds would be 120. only had a barral life of 300 rounds. Not sure if these were used for AA or not. You can add them if you want. Might be over kill to use against small bombers and fighters. with a 4 sec travers speed they may have been too slow anyways.

I'll leave it to you.

Gun Data.
here is a great site for naval gun data.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm

here is the data for the Myoko's guns...

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_79-50_3ns.htm

It is an accurate site. I've double checked most of the data against other sources. as you can see he will list anything that might contradict one another.

The rest of the DP...
The gun angles look fine. remember that you have it so only one side can engage at a time. unless attacked strait on. might be why your not seeing all of the guns. what setting do you have the ships at when testing? Novice Veteran or ACE. then what is the aggression level at? that can make the difference.

I'll have to test them ingame to see how things look. Everything else looks in order. I'll have to look closer on my days off.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Stuart are you using DPED?

[stuart277]

Hi John
Thanks for that website has a wealth of information, which will be useful when doing DP's.
And thank you very much for all your help.:applause:
With regard to DP's, I use DPed as well as some hand editing with the help of Caleb Flerk's website, http://www.cfgse.calebflerk.com/.
I probably test the ships on novice level.
With regard to the angles I think the following is correct???
For a ship heading North (0 degrees)
L/R Angle = 0, the gun points north.
L/R Angle = 180, the gun points south.
Offset = -ve value (port side), L/R Angle = 270, the gun points west.
Offset = +ve value (starboard side), L/R Angle = 90, the gun points east.

It is the left/right swivel limits where I am not sure.
Are the left/right swivel limits based on the ship facing north (0 degrees) or the offset and L/R Angle values.
Cheers for now
Stuart

[stuart277]

Hi Miccasharon:wavey:
Thanks for the kind comments.
I will get onto the Shimakaze. I am working on some IJN destroyers at the moment, the models are completed, but I am getting onto the DP's, and I am not experienced with these (the Katori was my first try at DP's)
With regard to the Nagato, at the moment I am working on ships that have not been made for CFS2 already, but I may get around to some 'upgrades' in the future.
Cheers
Stuart


Hi Stuart,

Fantastic work!
These ships are really needed for the battle of Pacific.
Katori was a missing piece for the missions of battle of Truk.
Myoko class, as well, are needed for many missions as like as the battle of Leyte.

If you still have a plan to build IJN ships, I would like to ask your consideration for Nagato Class BB.
She is needed for missions for the battle of Mariana & battle of Leyte.
We already have excellent VN Nagato class here in outhouse but she is earlier model before a refit before a war starts..

Also we don't have IJN Shimakaze DD.
We need her for missions for the battle of Leyte.

You may be busy for your work but if you have time in the future, I would like you to consider about this.
Anyway, I am already enjoying your ships all the time.
Thanks again.

Miccasharon

[miccasharon]

Hi Stuart,

I am so happy to hear that you have some more plans for IJN ships.
Since I have no knowledge about ship modeling & DP building, I can't help you on that.
But if you need any information of IJN ships or Jap-Eng translation of documents, I think I can give you a small help.
Pls feel free to contact me anytime.
Txs again.

Yuki MURAYAMA as Miccasharon

Hi Miccasharon:wavey:
Thanks for the kind comments.
I will get onto the Shimakaze. I am working on some IJN destroyers at the moment, the models are completed, but I am getting onto the DP's, and I am not experienced with these (the Katori was my first try at DP's)
With regard to the Nagato, at the moment I am working on ships that have not been made for CFS2 already, but I may get around to some 'upgrades' in the future.
Cheers
Stuart

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hey Stuart,

Lets see if I can explain it correctly. In the DPED folder you have the "HOW TO" doc.

here is part of it with regards to the Guns.

"[GUNS] window:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This window controls the armaments definitions.
[Trigger] is a trigger button. The value may 0,1,2 or 3. The values
correspond to each 1-4 key on a keyboard. If the "No Weapons" is specified,
the [GUNSTATIONS] and [GUNS] sections are not written in a DP file. If
the plane has no armaments, you may select "No Weapons".
[Spec] defines armaments specification. The value may 1,2,4 or 8.
[Part] is a part of this armament which is defined in the [PARTS] window.
In case you want to set armament which is not in a PARTS section, you
can set the number directory into the right window. For example, bombs(21)
and Torpedoes(62) of CFS2 are not in PARTS section.
[Round] is an interval of fire. "0.06" means 1000 rounds per minute.
[Speed] is an initial speed in (meters/second).
[Trace] is a term how long CFS traces its trajectory in second.
[Flush] means muzzle flush. Ordinary value for guns are "0.01" and
cannons are "0.05".
[Range] is concerning the timing when AI planes start shooting. When
you close towards an AI plane, the closer you are to this [Range], the AI
plane will start shooting at you.
[Sound] defines the shooting sound (eg cannon or machine gun).
[Tracer] is a percentage of a tracer (it is adviseable to keep this value
below 80% as it will affect graphics/game speed!).
[Dice] is a damage dice. "1d1*" means unit of a dice. If a value following
the "1d1*" is larger, the damage will occur to a larger area. Ordinary values
are followings.
7.7mm = 8
12.7mm = 13
20 mm = 20
30 mm = 30
90LB Rocket=3000
110LB Bomb =6000
An explosion warhead value may 1.4 to 3 times as big.
[Offset] is an offset value from the CG (center of gravity) in meters.
[Pitch] is UP/DOWN angle.
is for swivel guns.
[B][L/R angle] is a horizontal heading in degrees. Forward = 0, Right = 90,
Left = -90, Backward = 180(-180).
[Swivel Limit] is a limit angle of swivel guns. Neutral position is
defined by [Pitch][Bank][L/R angle].
Swivel guns are only effective when the plane controls them - AI. Otherwise
the gun will fixed to neutral direction.
[Weight] is a weight of bullet in ounces (be aware that this armament weight
is added to that of the fuel and then the aircraft's dry-weight to give
a total weight!).
You may delete or add [GUNS] by clicking [Del] or [Add] button. If you
delete [GUNS], related [GUNSTATIONS] datas also will removed.
You may define armament positions at a lower part of the window.
[Bullets] is maximum and default of the number of bullets.
[Offset] is an offset from a position defined at the above.
[Pitch] and [L/R angle] is an offset angle in degrees.
[Tracer On] is defining whether tracer is visible or not (see above!).
You may delete or add [GUNSTATIONS] by clicking [Del] or [Add] button.
You may choose armaments from my armaments database. "

So they have it as...

0 is facing front
-90 is facing left
90 is right
180 (or -180) is rear

not sure if it will understand 270 deg. i think it only sees in half spheres. so -180 would be all the way left and 180 would be all the way right.

does that help any?

[Blood_Hawk23]

here are some of my Armaments that you can add to the ARMS.dat

just copy and past them in tho the dat file though note pad.

8.8 cm/45 (3.46") Flak L/45,4,-99,2,2,790,2,0.05,9000,6,20,1d1*200,0,0,0,0,0,0,-90,90,70,-10,337.76,Germany
Rheinmetall-2 cm/65 (0.79") C/30 20mm Cannon,1,-99,2,0.16,835,2,0.04,3700,4,20,1d1*28,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,85,-11,8.73,Germany - UBoats
Vickers QF 3 inch 20 cwt anti-aircraft gun,4,-99,2,2,760,2,0.05,7600,6,10,1d1*180,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,90,-10,256,United Kingdom
1-pdr (0.45 kg) [1.46" (37 mm)] Mark 10 AA gun 1914-1918,4,-99,2,2.4,610,2,0.05,800,6,10,1d1*180,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,35,-10,25.92,USA
3"/23.5 (7.62 cm) Mark 14 AA gun 1914-1918,4,-99,2,6.6,503,2,0.05,2000,6,10,1d1*200,0,0,0,0,0,0,-90,90,75,-15,264,USA
3"/50 (7.62 cm) Mark 11 AA gun 1914-1918,4,-99,2,3,823,2,0.05,2000,6,10,1d1*200,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,85,-10,384,USA
8.8 cm Ubts + Tbts Flak L/30 1914-1918,4,-99,2,4,590,2,0.05,2000,6,10,1d1*180,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,45,-10,486.4,Germany
8.8 cm/45 (3.46") Flak L/45 1915,4,-99,2,4,890,2,0.05,4000,6,10,1d1*200,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,45,-10,528,Germany
0.303" (7.7 mm) Maxim Machine Gun Mark I 1914,0,-99,1,0.11,700,2,0.01,200,0,40,1d1*8,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,75,-45,0.96,United Kingdom
VSM 1-pdr (0.45 kg) [1.46" (37 mm)] Mark I,1,-99,2,0.6,367,2,0.05,500,5,20,1d1*80,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,75,-10,21.92,United Kingdom
2-pdr [4 cm/39 (1.575")] QF Mark II 1915,1,-99,2,0.8,585,2,0.05,1100,5,20,1d1*110,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,80,-10,47.2,United Kingdom
Vickers 3-pdr (1.4 kg) [1.85"/50 (47 mm)] QF Marks II,4,-99,2,2.4,785,2,0.05,1800,6,10,1d1*150,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,80,-5,105.6,United Kingdom
3"/45 (7.62 cm) 20cwt QF HA Mark I 1915,4,-99,2,4.28,762,2,0.05,4000,6,10,1d1*180,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,-180,180,40,-10,105.6,United Kingdom
3"/30 (7.62 cm) "Lender's Gun" 8-K 1914/15,4,-99,1,4,588,2,0.05,4000,6,10,1d1*150,0,0,0,0,0,0,-180,180,75,-5,400,Russia
6.5 mm/115 (0.26") 3rd Year Type Kihô 1916-1918,0,-99,1,0.15,740,2,0.01,500,0,20,1d1*8,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,-180,180,85,-25,0.32,Japan
3"/25 (7.62 cm) 8 cm/25 (3") Short Guns 1914-1918,4,-99,2,4,455,2,0.05,2000,6,10,1d1*130,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,-180,180,75,-10,204.8,Japan
8 cm/40 (3") 41st Year Type (Model 1908) ,4,-99,2,4,680,2,0.05,2000,6,10,1d1*150,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,-180,180,75,-10,200,Japan
4"/45 (10.2 cm) QF Mark V and Mark XV ,4,-99,2,4.28,805,2,0.05,5000,6,10,1d1*350,0,0,0,0,0,0 .5,-180,180,85,-5,400,United Kingdom
37 mm Puteaux single shot cannon,4,45,2,8,478,2,0.05,600,6,80,10d20*20000,0, 0,300,0.25,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,France
12-pdr [3"/40 (7.62 cm)] 12cwt QF Marks I,4,-99,2,4,681,2,0.05,1500,6,20,1d1*150,0,0,0,0,0,0,18 0,180,70,-10,206.4,United Kingdom
Hotchkiss M1909 8mm Benet-Mercie machine gun,0,-999,1,0.15,730,2,0.1,300,1,40,1d1*8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0.38,French
QF 6 pounder (57mm)Hotchkiss,4,-999,2,2.4,554,2,0.2,300,6,10,1d1*130,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,155.2,French
25mm V1-CFS2 stock,0,-30,1,0.52,922.813,2,0.01,7688,5,40,1d1*20,-3.2,18.816002,-26.240002,0,0,180,-80,180,85,-10,9.6,Japan
5" V1-CFS2 stock,4,-24,1,12,944.88,4,0.01,14538,7,20,1d1*120,-11.392001,16.640001,9.216001,0,0,270,-90,100,75,-10,800,Japan
20 cm V1,0,-22,2,20.3,835,15,0.1,28000,6,100,1d1*10000,0,8.2,6 0.1,0,0,0,-150,150,70,-5,4444,Japan
12.7cm V1,0,-27,2,4.28,720,15,0.1,9440,6,100,1d1*3000,6.9,11.8, 10,0,0,90,-90,90,90,-8,811,Japan
25mm V2,0,-31,1,0.1,923,8.3,0.01,3800,4,40,1d1*35,4.3,17.05,2 9.125,0,0,0,-45,180,90,-10,8.8,Japan
20 cm/50 (8") 3rd Year Type No. 2 ,4,-999,2,20,840,3,0.05,8000,6,0,1d1*8000,0,0,0,0,0,0,-90,90,55,-5,4438.4,Japan
12 cm/45 (4.7") 10th Year Type ,4,-999,2,7.5,825,6,0.05,5000,6,200,1d1*300,0,0,0,0,0, 0,-90,90,75,-10,718.4,Japan
25 mm/60 (1") Type 96 Model 1 ,1,-999,1,0.5,900,3,0.05,2500,4,20,1d1*25,0,0,0,0,0,0,-90,90,85,-10,24,Japan
3.7cm (37mm) Flak 37,1,54,2,0.4,845,2,0.05,2500,5,30,1d1*50,-1.657,13.541,-65.239,0,0,0,-180,180,90,-7,52,Germany
12.8cm (128mm) Flak 40,4,52,2,3,880,2,0.05,5000,6,20,1d1*500,61.649,16 .041,-65.41,0,0,0,-180,180,88,-3,912,Germany

These are all historically accurate from the naval gun site and other sources.

[Blood_Hawk23]

When you make your DPs Stuart are you using your Gmax model as a reference?

1011210113


1011510117

1011410116

Not sure if you can see it clear enough here. I do a general outline of the major ship components.

[Blood_Hawk23]

After doing the boxes I add the parts. Some are copied from other dps in note pad then edited in DPED. After that I add the Guns. The main guns I add as Parts. where the AA guns are both parts and gunstations.

Now for one of the WWI Battleships I'm adding the gunstation for one of the main guns. It was used to shoot down zeppelins. I forget which turret.

[stuart277]

Hi John,

As you know, all of the DP's on my ships, up to Katori, are just copied from other ships.

Without any alteration other than wakes and position of funnel smoke.

eg, The Myoko DP is just the Takao DP from Usio (and Pen32win). It is OK with Myoko as the ships are so similar but it is drawing a long-bow to when I used the DP from the stock Omaha Cruiser to represent on of my ships (I forget which one, but someone commented on this one, so I decided to try to have a go at DP's).

Anyway, I with Katori, I used a DP from a similar sized ship and used my GMax Model to change the dimensions of the damage boxes, gun positions etc as you have suggested.

Thanks for the armament website and the info from the DPed readme (I should have looked myself)

With regard to the 270 degree business, I was using DPed to look at the side armaments from some of the stock ships and they have 270, eg. SHA_INDIANA, guns 1 and 3.

I prefer the 90 and -90, in relation to the front of the ship.

At the moment I am working on IJN Shimakaze DP.

I have used the Kagero DP from Usio and Pen32win. I can do the dimensions of the damage boxes and most of the other things but the swivel limits are still a bit of a mystery.

So far I have done this:

Front 127cm gun:
LR angle = 0
Swivel Limit Left = -135
Swivel Limit Right = 135

My guess is that the gun faces forward and can swivel left and right to face 45 degrees astern (max)??

I have two triple 25mm AA guns amidships, one port side and one starboard side.
LR angle = -90 (port gun)
LR angle = 90 (starboard gun)

I am going to set the swivel limits for the port gun as -10 (slightly to port/forward) and -170 (slightly to port/astern)

The starboard gun, 10 (slightly to starboard/forward) and 170 (slightly to starboard/astern)

The idea being that each gun can only fire in a limited arc on the side of the ship that it is set. Am I on the right track with this??

The #2 and #3 127cm guns face astern:
LR angle = 180
Swivel Limit Left = -45
Swivel Limit Right = 45
My guess is that the guns face astern and can swivel left and right to face 45 degrees forward. (Max)

Am I on the right track with this as well??

Cheers and thanks again for your help,

Stuart

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hummmm...

Now your posing a good question.

See I always thought that the swivel limit went off of the guns position. So if the gun was facing south 180 then the -90 was from that starting point. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think we need someone to shed some light on this.

Here is why I thought that. If the limit left is -90 and right is 90 then the total is 180 (technically its zero but that mathematically). So with a max of 360 then -180 left is to the rear and 180 is right to the rear for a total of 360. Now if it can do 720 then that throws all of my thinking out the window.

So in this lies the question. Do we need to think in full 360 deg rotation in each direction or only 180?

[stuart277]

Hi John,

I will copy my last post and put it up on a separate thread.

Cheers,

Stuart

[stuart277]

Hi All
At the moment I am working on IJN Shimakaze DP. BloodHawk23 has been helping me with this but we need some input from someone who knows a bit more about DP's.
I have used the Kagero DP from Usio and Pen32win.
I can do the dimensions of the damage boxes and most of the other things but the LR Angle and swivel limits of the guns are still a mystery.:dizzy:
So far I have done this:
Ship facing north, 0 degrees.

Front 127cm gun:
LR angle = 0
Swivel Limit Left = -135
Swivel Limit Right = 135
My guess is that the gun faces forward and can swivel left and right to face 45 degrees astern on both port and starboard sides (max)??

I have two triple 25mm AA guns admidship, one port side and one starboard side.
LR angle = -90 (port gun)
LR angle = 90 (starboard gun)
I am going to set the swivel limits for the port gun as
-10 (slightly to port/forward) and -170 (slightly to port/astern)
The starboard gun, 10 (slightly to starboard/forward) and 170 (slightly to starboard/astern)
The idea being that each gun can only fire in a limited arc on the side of the ship that it is set.
Am I on the right track with this??

The #2 and #3 127cm guns face astern:
LR angle = 180
Swivel Limit Left = -45
Swivel Limit Right = 45
My guess is that the guns face astern and can swivel left and right to face 45 degrees forward (max)

Am I on the right track with this as well??

Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Stuart

[Allen]

LR angle = sets basic firing and Swivel Limit is how far it can move from the LR angle.

The Front 127cm guns are set to fire form 0 to 45 degrees aft.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do with the two triple 25mm. Can you clear that up some?

The Back 127cm guns are set to fire form 180 to 135 degrees aft.

I attach a dergee wheel that may be usefull and a view of the ship guns angles.

10159 10160

[stuart277]

Hi Allen
Thanks for the help. :applause:
The Degree Wheel is very useful and the pictures are just what I needed.
As Bloodhawk thought, the Swivel Limit is how far it can move from the LR angle.
So with this in mind:
The front 12.7cm guns are OK.
The rear 12.7cm guns should also have:
Swivel Limit Left = -135
Swivel Limit Right = 135
Which will allow limited (45 degree's) fire to the bow and full fire astern.

With regard to the two triple 25mm.
They sit abreast each other amidship.
one is set to face port (left), LR angle = -90, and cannot fire to starboard in case it hits the starboard gun.
the other is set to face starboard (right), LR angle = 90 and cannot fire to port in case it hits the port gun.

So I should have the swivel limits set to:
Swivel Limit Left = -75
Swivel Limit Right = 75
for both of these guns.

How does that look??
Cheers
Stuart

[UncleTgt]

Stuart/ Bloodhawk,

Good thread going here.

Allen, thank you for the Degree Wheel, a really useful visualisation aid.

I would like to suggest you looking at the ship mods that Blue Devil made. His view on ship damage is a little bit different, & he approaches the HAA ranges by tweaking various parts of the GUNS section of the dp to get the reach & effect of long range air burst. He annotates his dps to outline his approach.

If you use historically accurate figures for your 3", 4", 5", 5.25" etc, you'll be disappointed at the visual spectacle, & engagement range.

Blue Devil correctly deduced that CFS2 was only tracking rounds for 2 secs, so time of flight for long range AA needed to match the 2 sec flight time. He changed the speed of the round to compensate.

[Allen]

stuart277

Front Guns.
LR angle = 0
Swivel Limit Left = -135
Swivel Limit Right = 135

Mid Left Guns
LR angle = -90
Swivel Limit Left = -70
Swivel Limit Right = 70

Mid Right Guns
LR angle = 90
Swivel Limit Left = -70
Swivel Limit Right = 70

Back Guns.
LR angle = 180
Swivel Limit Left = -135
Swivel Limit Right = 135

10181

UncleTgt

The Degree Wheel is a quick and dirty thing but works well since DPED display firing angles.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Here is a thought,

You can change the round tracking. That falls under Trace. to get the trace you just take the distance and divide it by the speed. An example would be; If the range is set for 1500m and speed is 762mps then the trace will be 1.96. You can just round up to 2 if you'd like.

So a better fix for long range may be to adjust the trace to match the actual time. Other wise the round is going faster then what it should.

Its up to you how you want it to work.

If you look at the arms.dat I posted you'll see that most are for WWI. I didn't want to be shot down 2 seconds after nearing a ship. now in groups the ships start to become deadly and you have to keep away. I'm able to fly a sopwith pup near a ship without too much to worry about. If you stick around then you will have trouble. The crew get better the longer you hang around. This also depends on the aggression level and experience level.

[stuart277]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the info.:applause:

I'm on track. Those pictures are very good.

Cheers,

Stuart

P.S. - UncleTgt, There is a bit of golf near you. I haven't been to Hoylake (or Lytham or Birkdale) and I can't even watch it on the tele as we don't have fox sports. Looks like an awesome course from the website.

[UncleTgt]

Its always windy at Hoylake :pop4:

and they replaced the local trains with a bus service so it doesn't upset the "World Class" golfers ... yeah right :hopelessness:

Good job is the other side of the River from me...:costumed-smiley-034

[UncleTgt]

I decided to do some testing, so I created duplicate missions:

Player F6F trailing 2 x F6F on a strafing attack on Stock Kagero Jap DD. Stock dp file altered to give the 5" fore & aft a trace time of 10 secs (to reflect published ranges)
Player F6F trailing 2 x F6F strafing attack on stock Kagero Jap DD, with Blue Devil's ACM dp

The effect is night vs day

Blue Devils method really makes you feel like Flak is dangerous, whereas the stock dp file is harmless

I think there are two issues

Irrespective of the stated trace time, I think the game stops tracking rounds after 2 seconds.
I noticed most of the stock airbursts where within a 2000mtr radius of the DD, even though a 10 second trace time should have given it a 9000mtr+ radius. It also seems to wait until the previous round has gone before firing the next (not certain, needs more testing)

The Fire Control model is suitable for MG & cannon, but not suitable for airburst barrages. Consequently the game AI does not predict target path, so airbursts are never close enough to worry you until the time of flight is small (ie close in AA ranges, where the MG & cannons take over).

Blue Devil's solution was an elegant way of faking the game AI fire control to emulate realistic Heavy AA barrages.
I think there must be some scatter built into the game fire control for flak, as you don't have to tweak up/down left/right angles to reduce the laser accuracy of bomber gunners at long ranges. Just adjusting time between rounds & speed of round so that the trace is within 2 seconds, & the rate of fire approximates the firing cycle for the barrage works well enough.

Note:
Stated ROF can be misleading, it's the sustained firing cycle time during an engagement that is important.

The ship Fire Control System effectiveness is also an issue - only the US seems to have deployed a fully capable 3-axis High Angle FCS during WW2, so everybody else's real-life engagement performance was less effective than advertised - particularly against Dive Bombers.

As the game AI FCS is fixed, we only have tweaking the dp files as ways of simluating these differences. The main impact seems to have been reduced rates of fire, as the prediction/ correction control loop either slowed everything down, or made everything much less accurate.

This needs more work.

Bloodhawk,

Currently I'm collecting info from:

Naval Weapons of WW2 - John Campbell, 1985
US Naval Weapons - Norman Friedman, 1983

Once I have a table of data that I think is useful I'll ping you a copy - most of the older WW2 guns were useful for WW1 as well :playful:

[Blood_Hawk23]

It would seem that Blue Devil had a lot figured out. I think MS had trouble with the ballistics calculator. It seems it can not cycle fast enough. Which would explain why it waits for the next round when dealing with the FLAK.

Do you have the rest of Blue Devils notes? It seems to be missing some points.

A new arms.dat file is needed for WWII guns. It would be nice to include historical data that looks as it should in the sim.

I don't have reference books to go by. Anything you can get would be helpful. Do check out the website I listed earlier. They include references with each entry. I'd love to see how the site stacks up.

Not sure if this will help but here is a sample of my data collection format...

3"/50 (7.62 cm) Mark 11 AA gun 1914-1918
RoF: 15-20 rmp
Weight: 24lbs (convert to ounces for round weight)
Velocity: 823 mps
Range: 9270m max
Range Effective: 2000m (engagement range)
Elevation: -10min +85max

[UncleTgt]

Hi John,

navweaps uses some of the books I'm trawling through as source data, but it fills some gaps. I think Blue Devil annotated the top of each ship dp he did with some notes of the changes he made. These give a clue to the thought process, but like you I've struggled to find a complete explanation - I just know the changes he made result in more realistic flak (IMHO)

I will mail you with what I have collected so far.

[Worthless]

This is great stuff. I'm saving this thread for future reference. Many thanks!

[Blood_Hawk23]

Thats great UT. Good to know that you have some of the same sources. It helps me to validate the info.

I have a PDF copy of Janes Fighting Ships 1919 that I've been using for my WWI ships. saddly it only covers the Royal Navy. Which is great to have but its only the RN and no one else. It seems that the publisher bought the rights back and the person who made the PDF was only allowed to do the British ships. I wish he could have been allowed to do the German as well.

Anyways, between that and Wiki I'm getting the correct guns for each ship and class of ship. Then I'm making the ARMS.dat info based on the navwep data.

So based on what I've done, do you see any changes that need to be made?

If you need to see them in DPED you can copy and paste them to your arms.dat in the DPED folder. Then just open DPED and select Guns. Then under edit select armaments. You can scroll down to each one and hit add on the one you want to look at. If you can follow the entries themselves then that would save time. What ever way is easiest for you.

[UncleTgt]

Bloodhawk,

I have "Janes Warships of WW1" in hardback. Let me know what you need - if I can scan it I will, otherwise I can get the info you need some other way. Just don't say "all the rest of the Nations!":stupid: