Ship Carrier model data information -Ship AI

[COBS]

I have noticed that several Ship and aircraft carrier model developers have posted here .

I need ship identifier information for a Radar that can search for ships.

I checked the Boat section cfg's and the only data was Ship type number and in a couple of cases a name.

The sort of information that I'm after is :-
1. name .
2. Ship type number
3. Class
4. Ship length
5. Ship weight
6. BRC (Base Recovery Course) for carriers
7. Speed
8. Heading

or any other data/ information that would aid in identifying a ship on a radar display , especially to aid
in discriminating a Aircraft Carrier hidden in an escort group.

Are any of the above parameters defined or used in either the Model or the FDE ?

If they are , I need the actual descriptive text and it's location .
or even a snippet or example .

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Karol

[Wizard]

Naval Engagement! (NE) provides information such as you are asking - but radar alone would only give location information. If there is an IFF attached then that could give you specific (friendly) information. Some radars in the real world can give relative size - but there are numerous ways to deceive a radar return, so I wouldn't count on that. Of course, there are numerous versions of surface radars, and each has it's own capabilities and limitations (which NE uses) - not to mention their range/horizon limitations.

I use various publications including Janes, Combat Fleets of the World, Guide to the Soviet Navy, etc as reference material - as well as several online web sites which provide various information - unclassified, of course.

Hope this helps!

[lazarus]

Raw surface search radar-a 'skin paint' will only show heading, speed, and some size difference based on target size, reflectivity and range. You see this in a standard deception technique to defeat a radar seeker on a ASM where a helio's fly formation with the ship carrying radar reflectors to give an attacking ASM a artificially large return,which causes the missile seeker to aim for the centroid of the return , hopefully some where between the ship and helio, missing the ship. Chaff works the same way. some modern SAR and MMW sets have enough resolution to actually give a 'picture' of the target. So sorting out which ship is which relies on speed (warships move faster than merchies when the spam is in the fire) target behaviour,size and strength of return, vanishing returns denote a diving sub, and , if the other guy is coming in dumb and radiating; ELINT identification of radars, jammers,and radios the bad guy is using. If your smart, you run in 'EMCON' -emissions control, not radiating any EM, as this can be 'seen' at a range many times greater than the detection range of your radar. Really cagey operators go after carriers by looking for the E-2's, many miles distant from the ship, but it gives you a box to look in. ECM, if in use, reduces the range at which your radar can pick anything out of the 'noise', but heavy ECM pretty much says "here I am !" to everyone in the area. In a non tactical application, or if you have sea and air superiority, and little risk of attack, the transponder is on, which gives an IFF signal to any one with a set that will receive it. I would suggest looking at a way to have the radar show ATC information for a ship, and use the ships radio call as an ATC IFF tag. That information can be found by a quick google search.Radio hobbyists are nuts for lists of call signs. The calls are often given in wikipedia articles too. I have a few lists of warship radio call signs found online from trying to get an ATC tag to work a ship- no soap though.
Hope that helps

[SkippyBing]

Raw surface search radar-a 'skin paint' will only show heading, speed, and some size difference based on target size, reflectivity and range.

Strictly speaking a skin paint will give you range and bearing from the radar, everything else is conjecture on the part of the operator/software. Having occasionally seen a 'track while scan' radar give a merchant ship a course and speed of 40+ knots in the opposite direction to reality I find it's best to be sceptical!

[Essex]

Specific to FSX you may wish to have a look at the inner workings of the realistic F18 HUD or RFN TACAN Gauge V2x, they identify ships by their mdl radius and whether or not they are carriers by the presents of a catapult.

[lazarus]

Strictly speaking a skin paint will give you range and bearing from the radar, everything else is conjecture on the part of the operator/software. Having occasionally seen a 'track while scan' radar give a merchant ship a course and speed of 40+ knots in the opposite direction to reality I find it's best to be sceptical!

Yup. They don't call 'em 'Scope Wizards' for nought. The radar gauge from Brian's Nimrod is ta really handy version of the old traffic radar gauge- shows all AI, rate, range, bearing, heading tags on mouse , air targets in green when moving, sea and ground targets in white, shows space targets, even dropped objects-markers, weapons, missiles. You can even radar bomb with it, with some practice. Getting fairly good at plinking subs with the Shackleton at night with depth charges.

[COBS]

It's a fascinating topic wether about real life or in the sim .
I gather newer radars are able to not only detect an aircraft but also identify the 'type' of aircraft
being tracked .
Presumeably it compares the radar returns with a data bank/ library of aircraft profiles ,
the extreme capability of computers and software dramatically add to a radars capability.

Most will have seen in movies similar being done by skilled sonar operators who can not only detect
a submarine , but also identify it's class and sometimes identify an individual sub from it's unique
sound.
Most of that task would now be conducted by computer software making comparisons with an extensive library
pre recorded sound profiles.
Just imagine the radars currently being developed in secret labs , they would have awesome capabilities.
Regards helicopters being used as decoys , several navies are now using the Nulka missile decoy , a neat device.

Regards a ship Radar for the Flight Simulator (FSX).
I want to go further than the unit in the Nimrod.

Essex ,
Thanks for that imput .
If I'm correct the "RFN TACAN Gauge V2x" is done in C++ , way out of my league , I'm strictly xml code.
The F-18 HUD with the included Tacan will be definitely worth a look at , I gather it enables ILS style
carrier approaches , so it is detecting and getting data on the ship , that's good.
I've just done a 'Mark Position' instrument that enables precision ILS style landings on any surface anywhere ,
so that can easily be adapted to carriers.

I have done two instruments that detect and 'Lock On' to AI aircraft , what I would love to add to my radar
is a similar Maritime capability with lots of ship data.
Then I would have both 'Air to Air' and "Maritime" that could be selected .

Any further Ship specific parameters would be appreciated.

Below is a shot with my Radar in Air to Air mode with text data overlay of selected AI aircraft Locked on ,
at Right center , it detects AI out to 40 nm , it repeats data at the top of the HUD.
The instrument below is the "AI Hunter' it detects out to 80+ nm .
Note the amount of text data in both instruments.
Ignore the two instruments at top left , they are just my experiments.

Cheers
Karol
9599

[Essex]

Karol
The earlier versions of the RFN gauge used modified xml code from the F18 HUD, this meant the two were compatible and made it possible to have HUD ILS to carriers listed in Carrier.xml but not coded in the HUD.
This changed with V3 and I've never been able to get it to cooperate with the HUD, there may be a workaround.
Anyway, sounds like you're making good progress.

[COBS]

Essex ,

Thank you , would you happen to know where or a website that I can download the earlier version of the
" RFN gauge " from ?

The instruments that I make are freeware , as is that panel depicted in the above shot .

What I'm trying to do is gather a range of data (parameters) relating to ships/boats that can , subsequently
be used in instruments such as radars , and also possibly for weapon targeting purposes .

Any useable ship data would of course be made available to all other developers whether freeware or
commercial for use in their own instrument projects.
I like developing instruments and capabilities that give flight simulation users options and extra systems
or capabilities that can enrich their flying experience.
Some of these expansions introduce real world capabilities into the Sim , and in my opinion that's neat.

Cheers
Karol

Regards the above shot , with the available AI data in my radar you can intercept or fly in formation with
any AI that you have currently selected , then remain precisely on station anywhere relative to that AI,
if you chose to fly say 237' away from him you can maintain that position.
Interestingly , you do not even have to see him , ie; at night , in cloud , or even if you are in front of him,
the data and visual presentation keep you fully informed of what your target AI is up to at any instant
and his position and flight data relative to you.

[Essex]

Karol
What I should have said is the modified xml code from the F18 HUD is in a separate xml file, it isn't the whole gauge.
There are quite a few other files, Carrier.xml, which is a user editable list of carriers and Carrier.dll which presumably reads the contents of Carrier.xml, amongst others. This isn't that much use to you as unlisted ships are ignored.
Perhaps you could estimate tonnage based on mdl radius?

[COBS]

Essex ,

Thank you for showing an interest and for the info that you have provided.
I will keep on digging to see what further ship information I can find , I suspect that this search might
take some time .
I consider that it is a worthwhile project to tackle .
It's a two pronged thing ;
1. Get the maximum information possible on ships .
2. Devise a way to render that information into a format that can subsequently used in various instruments
including radars with ship capability.

If you are interested the following describes the construct of a Radar to give it an accurate scalar display,
most of it is boring technical coding stuff , but at page 3 and specifically around post #59 you will see the
the difficulties that are being experienced in trying to get fully informed ship data to show up.
The link is :-
http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/need-help-with-radar-gauge.428217/

So you can see that it would be nice to get more and better ship data to show in our instruments ,
I suspect that a lot of us would appreciate a better way to track and identify ships in our Sim .

Regards
Karol
PS ; when conducting background information research every single scrap of information is vital ,
because you never know where it might lead you to. thanks again.

[expat]

I expect you are, but in case not aware, the ARS4 guage at avsim allows you to track and link the AP to be guided to both moving aircraft (eg for refueling) and also moving carriers and other ships.

ars4.zip

[COBS]

expat ,

Yes , the ARS4 is a wonderful instrument , but it only recognises aircraft carriers for a specific download package.
I want to be able to track and identify any ship or any carrier .
That is why I am after AI ship parameters .
The radar in the above link uses the ARS4 method , but cannot identify what a ship showing on the radar actually is ,
it could be a speed boat or a carrier or neither !!

For example if you want to land on a carrier , and your radar is showing multiple ships , which is the Carrier ?
Often carriers have several escorts , but at the moment you cannot identify individual ships.

Another example , with military applications you want to attack a destroyer , how do you tell if a target ,
on your radar is a destroyer , liner , fishing boat or a yacht , at the moment you can only identify by
visual sighting , by then it's too late to press home the attack .

All I want is to present the pilot with the maximum possible info so that he is always fully informed ,
unfortunately the flight simulator does not declare the ship Variables in the published SDK's.
So basically we are left to devise a work around to get the required info.

Cheers
Karol

[Wizard]

Ah I see! Let me interject - that you are going to give a fighter pilot far more information than would be readily available to him. It's really the ships and AWACS/E-2/SH-60 aircraft that can process ESM data (radars being emitted, sonars, etc) and come up with a probable platform type.

A major part of deception is to place the carrier where it won't be identified, with limited if any emissions. If you take away the "stealth" ability, it is much easier for the opposing force to target the carrier (for instance) while ignoring the escorts. It's a game of nerves, stealth, and knowledge of your own equipment and peoples capabilities and what you think the enemy's Order Of Battle is. It's hard to resist poking a periscope up to get a visual confirmation. Fighter pilots (well, at least in my day - 70s and 80s) were vectored to a target by a controller and told which platform to "take". Fighters having only survival detection capability (ie RWR, IR detectors). You are very much correct that a visual confirmation would likely result in being shot down long before it could occur.

I just seems to me that with all the info you want to present to the pilot, there would be no reason to go into EMCON - might as well have all radars lit off if the enemy knows who you are. My two pennies in the for what it's worth department.

[COBS]

Wizard ,

You raise valid and interesting concerns .
The 70's and 80's were quoted , at that time very powerful Radars and computers started to
be fitted to even fighters.
Since that time the equipment fitout in military aircraft has advanced out of sight.

A single fighter is becoming somewhat awesome , as well as now being both a fighter and a bomber ,
it also has incredible reconnaisance capabilities with real time networked communications that enable
data sharing to various other assets both near and far .
Even as long ago as the Panavia Tornado , the pilot could plot and record unfolding enemy battle assets,
their number and locations and pass on that data .

Today and tomorrow your fighter at the click of a button becomes a bomber , it's equipment includes :
- Radar very powerful with ranges in the region of 300 nm , it can , search for aircraft , trucks , tanks , ships,
it can map the ground with close to photographic quality , it can do extensive ECM jamming and record or
transmit what it sees , some can see single wires strung between power poles , they can track and target
multiple objects simultaneously , target recognition , and the list goes on ...
- Day / night vision pods that can be pointed off boresight with BVR magnification powers usually fitted
with Laser ranging and targeting. Operate in both visual and infra red spectrum.
- Infra red , search , track and targeting systems that operate passively.
- an extensive suite of powerful fully automated ECM , Electronic Counter Measures .
- Battlespace management displays .
- Communication include the ordinary stuff , encryption , networked and data sharing , transmissions are
line of sight , HF ans satelite , you only have to think of the amount of data that you can get or send on
the internet to realise what an advanced military setup might be capable of.

- As an example a single F-22 can go into battle supporting a squadron of older fighters being their eyes , ears ,
and command and control.

- The shear amount of data available in a modern fighter is so immense that it overwhelms the pilots
ability to process it all , and that is with a high degree of automation thrown into the mix , you will have
noticed that many now have a crew of two to share the workload burden.

What I try to do is provide the pilot with the maximum information and to replicate a small fraction of what is
available in modern real world military applications.
I believe in creating strong and powerful instrument systems that are very useful tools for the flight simulation
pilot.
I try to provide the options , then leave it to the users judgement what he wants to use in any given situation.


Cheers
Karol

[Wizard]

Roger all the above. The NEUWUC system provides all that information - but, it is not inherent to FSX - but rather from the simulation server (NE!) and gauges within the Underway! dll. While I am intimately familiar with SimConnect, I know little of the other systems within FSX. :icon_eek:

It is interesting to see the way the military is changing as technology leaps ahead. There's an old folk song entitled "A Sailor Ain't a Sailor Aint't a Sailor Anymore" which laments the loss of sail, coal, oil, etc. The Navy of today is not my Navy. Heck, I hardly even recognize the modern enlisted uniform (looks way too much like a Marine uniform).

Best of luck in pursuing your goal! :icon37:

[COBS]

Wizard ,

Thank you .
You are right ..... the times , they are a changing ... if my memory serves me correctly , that is a line from a song .
Some changes are good , others are just for the sake of changing !!?!!
while other changes are retrograde steps to our civilisation .

Fortunately we here in the flight simulator have a major advantage in that respect , we can at any time
choose the period that we wish to operate in , WWI , WWII , 70's , 80's , now or the future .
I think it' great to be able to select either a Sopwith Pup , Spitfire , Vulcan , B-52 , Typhoon , F-15 , F-22 ,
or a Cessna , really , how lucky are we !

Technology , and especially military technology is a fascinating subject area that is evolving so rapidly that
it is hard to keep up with it.

I had hoped that some of the developers who have in the past contributed to threads here at SOH , and
who are involved in AI Ship or aircraft carrier creation would have chipped in with ideas.
I really would love to know of some of the data that goes into either the model or the FDE ,
some of that data might just provide leads that could be of subsequent use in Radars .

Cheers
Karol