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N2056
January 22nd, 2009, 15:06
It would seem that Microsoft has given pink slips to Aces...:faint:

My source is a solid one. I am certain he will post soon regarding this very shocking bit of news.

crashaz
January 22nd, 2009, 15:23
uh? Don't like the sound of this.:gossip:

Pepere
January 22nd, 2009, 15:23
Well, if that is true - lets look on the bright side- that should but more life into FSX! :typing:

After two years I'm just getting mine to work better plus it should help with developers to get some new aircraft/addons out for us's.

David :kilroy:

deimos256
January 22nd, 2009, 15:26
going slightly off topic, were they also working on train simulator 2?

N2056
January 22nd, 2009, 15:26
I found this just now...
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21981

crashaz
January 22nd, 2009, 15:30
Yep I just saw that too. :faint:

Some really good people there. This could be a real blow to the gut for the community.:kilroy:

harleyman
January 22nd, 2009, 15:32
Oh man........Thats is terrible news....Poor us..Even worse for the guys and their famalies....Man...That bites...


I have been drooling over MSTS for months too.:help:


And preparing for a build for FS X1....

Pips
January 22nd, 2009, 15:33
Wow!!:faint:That seems to be an insane move on Microsoft's part. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

codeseven
January 22nd, 2009, 15:35
Wow! I heard that MS was laying off 5,000 employees, a first in the history of that company. I'm really going to be bummed if the 'entire' Aces team is laid off.

It's a crazy time in history, especially around the tech world. Looking at the front page of HardOCP are two opposing headlines, 'Microsoft Posts Weak Earnings, Cutting 5,000 Jobs' and 'Apple Trounces Wall Street Estimates'. Who would've ever guessed.

http://www.hardocp.com/

crashaz
January 22nd, 2009, 15:38
All that work they put in to be more involved with the community.... Check Anaconda Catalogue (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?anaconda/) and Best and less Catalogue (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?best-and-less/). and now Balmer pulls the rug out from underneath them. Should have fired the Zune team as it looks like PC gaming revenues went up 3%.

Keep Aces... trash Zune.


Really bummed right now.

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 15:39
so we get Macs or we get consoles...eventually life goes on - the flight sim community is big enough to warrant ongoing development somewhere.

is it time for a petition in the meanwhile? cause its better to act fast than to sit around grousing about it

where is P-12 Paul I wonder

Paularx
January 22nd, 2009, 15:39
If so.... what about TS2 & FSXI ! :faint:

I hope your source is mistaken Robert !
i really would hate to hear this is true.
what a nasty shock !

datter
January 22nd, 2009, 15:49
I just heard about this a little while ago myself. Sign o' the times I'm afraid... and really too bad.

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 16:03
good thing 1c is still working on the Storm of War and Neoqb is still working on Rise of Flight.

M/S had a good thing going...I blame the Vista O/S debacle - that piece of carp really cost them big time

Here they had the next generation civil flight sim in their hands and its all over - hell they should let the ACES team design the next O/S and fire the clowns in THAT department

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
January 22nd, 2009, 16:03
It has been said that the bean counters have the last word , guess there is some truth to that after all .<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The FSX platform remains stable and there was no plans for any service packs anyway , ESP must be supported , that is the Aces in the hold.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Actual members of Aces are under NDA agreements and are likely to respect the letter of the law in forums i should think, press releases from spin doctors will doubtless be forthcoming, i still think there will be a console release eventually .... time will tell , bean counters count verry well after all.

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 16:06
yeah I seee Phil Taylor is in the room - I guess its unlikely any of those guys can comment other than to agree that its a dam shame...if all this news is true.

stiz
January 22nd, 2009, 16:13
phil hasnt worked at aces for a while though, went to work at intel, so i doubt he knows whats truley going on either, unless he kept links :)

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 16:16
yeah but he was pretty connected over there - wasn't he an ACES team leader for awhile? - he would likely know more than we do about this one would think.

N400QW
January 22nd, 2009, 16:20
From my post at Avsim...

Sad to see Phil but not unexpected given the current economic conditions.
You, Hal, Z, Singer, and the rest of the guys at the Studio have done an outstanding job on your outreach to developers and the community.
Thanks for all of your efforts and let's hope there is a turnaround at some point in the future.

Meantime, Team Eaglesoft will continue to develop for both FS9 and FSX Platforms as they are the only game in town at this point :kilroy:

stiz
January 22nd, 2009, 16:22
yea progamming lead i think, but what i mean is that would be people who work for intel know the ins and outs of job cuts at microsoft, as i said, unless hes kept in touch with the ACES lot i doubt he knows much more than us, and even if he did i dont think he'd say much, if anything.

But of course i could be completly wrong :)

PhilTaylor
January 22nd, 2009, 16:25
yeah but he was pretty connected over there - wasn't he an ACES team leader for awhile? - he would likely know more than we do about this one would think.

yes, I have contacts.

it's a sad day, that is all I can say at this point.

crashaz
January 22nd, 2009, 16:26
So what is left of Aces?

Hal, Z,Singer and Paul?

All that talent just thrown away?

After Windows, FS has to be one of their all time best selling software.

This is EXACTLY why I am staying in the consulting business.... join a company full-time and start to believe... and then some bean counter destroys all the people and the purpose that was created.

Kiwikat
January 22nd, 2009, 16:30
O_O;

:faint:

hey_moe
January 22nd, 2009, 16:31
Phil, sorry to read and hear something like this and it saddens our community that MS has decided to go in this direction.

war.ace
January 22nd, 2009, 16:32
let's not forget the people working for microsoft aren't the only ones losing jobs, there are thousands being laid off in north american car manufacturers and there might be a "recession"

bkeske
January 22nd, 2009, 16:36
It's happening all over. I'm a residential architectural designer. Believe me, we have been decimated this past 6 months.

Thank God we are still alive an kicking, but it sure does not look good right now. Only the 'highest end' projects are currently keeping us afloat....for how long?

Lionheart
January 22nd, 2009, 16:38
Man... This is a big chunk of news.. I never though this day would come.


:faint:



Bill

stiz
January 22nd, 2009, 16:39
of course if the bosses of the big firms and such took pay cuts as well, heck could cull some of them off instead of the workers :kilroy:

N400QW
January 22nd, 2009, 16:39
It's happening all over. I'm a residential architectural designer. Believe me, we have been decimated this past 6 months.

Thank God we are still alive an kicking, but it sure does not look good right now. Only the 'highest end' projects are currently keeping us afloat....for how long?

Times are indeed tough Brian. Here's hoping your industry stays as healthy as possible.:focus:

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 16:42
yes, I have contacts.

it's a sad day, that is all I can say at this point.

Sorry about your friends at ACES, Phil.

This IS a sad day, but talent is talent and there are viable flight sim development companies working now and others just waiting to be born.

the times are the times - but renewal is an ongoing process - this is just part of the process.

I hope this sad day will soon be looked back on as a golden opportunity and the day some NEW dreams were born

war.ace
January 22nd, 2009, 16:43
I heard how Canada's government is giving GM a loan so they won't have to lay off some more jobs. And thank God that Bombardier isn't being affected with this whole "loonie crash" thing.

bkeske
January 22nd, 2009, 16:45
Times are indeed tough Brian. Here's hoping your industry stays as healthy as possible.:focus:

Me too Ron. There are some upcoming aircraft I want to be able to be able to afford....hint....hint....:jump:

Thanks for the kind words.

crashaz
January 22nd, 2009, 16:52
Ugh... dejected is the word.

I haven't felt this bad about a simming company disappearing since Microprose.

c87
January 22nd, 2009, 16:57
It is a sad occurrence, for the people involved. But it could also be an opportunity. I could see a group of Aces individuals coming together to form their own flight sim development company -- the future of the (former) MS Flight Sim franchise.

I have a brother-in-law who was squeezed out of an engineering firm making high tech equipment (mngmnt was running the place into the ground). He and about 4 others started their own company, doing essentially the same thing as the company they left. That was 12 successful years ago. He's now the president of the new company and they're doing just fine.

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 16:59
Good Bye ACES - you made an outstanding Flight Simulator Series - providing endless amusement and entertainment and employment for many people, for many years.

That is No Small Achievement! :ernae: Thank You All

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 17:01
M/S - you have made another HUGE blunder - congratu-frikkin-lations

kjb
January 22nd, 2009, 17:09
I sure never saw this coming. The flow from this through the companies that make things for FS could be devastating. The design team at MS may be just the tip of the iceberg. People who make hardware and software addons for FS have to be very worried that their market will simply vanish. X Plane might be the only one to profit from this decision.

MCDesigns
January 22nd, 2009, 17:17
Wow, I really feel for the employees, but can't help but be angry, especially if the decision came from the bean counters. That would probably mean that the console design studios within MS are still going strong, at least for now. if true, yet another reason to NOT support consoles for me.

Man, I was really looking forward to FS11, if for nothing else to hopefully bring the community more together seeing how divided it is f between FS9 and FSX.

Hmm, I've always been a supporter of MS, might to rethink that now. I find it interesting that MS has to make severe cuts to stay afloat and a retailer, such as JCPenny is in the black with 2 bill on the books.

Wonder if Obama can give ACES a bailout, they/we need it more than the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 17:19
last note here from me as I'm eating bandwidth like candy here...jeez this sux

I hope the 3rd party development on FSX will continue as I look forward to flying FSX for many years to come and promise to spend $$ to the extend that I can on new terrain, scenery, aircraft etc..

and further - I would hope that some of the 3rd party groups would get in contact with any ACES people that might be available for hire directly or for consultation - to help with ongoing FSX related projects..or in Razbams case future 'from the ground up' flight simulations...EULA's and NDA's notwithstanding ofcourse

dammit - and to think - it was just a few weeks ago that the biggest problem we'd ever had around here was a smelly smilie

Ickie buddy - if only that could have been the end of it

Prowler1111
January 22nd, 2009, 17:19
I sure never saw this coming. The flow from this through the companies that make things for FS could be devastating. The design team at MS may be just the tip of the iceberg. People who make hardware and software addons for FS have to be very worried that their market will simply vanish. X Plane might be the only one to profit from this decision.
I doubt this will be the end of the MSFS series, by far...give the Strike FIgthers comunity a look, they are with a 8 yrs old sim platform, which JUST got a new version(vista able) and itīs very limited(scenery wise) but going stronger than ever (and actually making it a very good combat sim)
The FSX engine is very powerful, as far as i can see, we are just scratching itīs whole capabilities, besides, i read nowhere that they are killing the franchise...
Letīs just NOT PANIC..
Prowler

bkeske
January 22nd, 2009, 17:24
Wonder if Obama can give ACES a bailout, they/we need it more than the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

Not in my business ;)

...anyway, I have more faith that the free marketplace will fix all this before the government will, or can.

mike_cyul
January 22nd, 2009, 17:26
Let's be sure not to lose or damage our FS9 and FSX CDs then. May not be able to buy replacements down the line, and we may need 'em for a while!

The only constant in life is change, and I guess this is just another example of that. The answer is adapting, which is a part of that process.

Perhaps it also means that developers will gradually fill in all the possibilities of FSX as time goes on, and make it the best ever. I certainly won't be leaving FSX behind, unless something much, much better appears.

Be interesting to see what happens next.

Mike

CodyValkyrie
January 22nd, 2009, 17:41
I just got a couple of calls from some clients, and made a few of my own. I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I just found out.

Moses03
January 22nd, 2009, 17:51
...Letīs just NOT PANIC..


Exactly. Let's see what happens when we know all the facts. It's too easy to get all gloom and doom here. I just feel bad for the Aces team.

MHAircraft
January 22nd, 2009, 17:52
I'm sure I'm not the only one who started FS when it was known as the subLOGIC Flight Simulator.

Sad news as it is, I don't think we need to think of this as the end of FS. Maybe MS will resurrect the project when there's more money available. Maybe another company will buy the rights and continue. As long as there are enough of us to make it profitable, FS will live on.

N2056
January 22nd, 2009, 17:57
After I made the initial post I headed off to the gym to work off the initial shock...now I'm back, and still stunned.
I really hate to see people out of work, and I do hope that somehow these talented folks find some way to get back together and continue the legacy. I have been addicted to this simulation from the very first version that I flew on an Apple IIe many moons ago. Hard to believe it might actually be done.

I am very thankful that we have a version that is certainly workable in terms of developing content for. We will at least be able to enjoy what we have now for many years to come :)

Gibbage
January 22nd, 2009, 18:40
Hi guys. Im sure a lot of you know me from my work on both IL2 with the P-38, Go-229 and many many others, and many of my FSX add-on's.

In October, I started my dream job at MS, working on the ACES team as an artist for an un-announced title. Due to NDA, im sure you can understand me being vague. All I can say is I lost my job this morning, and what has happened has not fully sunk in for myself.

Needless to say, I am going to start back to work on 3rd party add-on's. FSX is far from dead, as the engine still has a lot of room for growth, and lots of developer tools for us to work with.

Again, due to the NDA, and the fact that I want to work in the game industry again (Breaking the NDA will kill my chances of any new job), I cant say any details at all about what happened, other then I myself no longer work at ACES. :frown:

Anyone need a good aircraft modeler with LOTS of experience?

harleyman
January 22nd, 2009, 18:45
Gibbage... I am truely sorry to hear this for you and your family...It is indeed a sad day for all...

What the hell are they thinking over there???????

You and all the MS folks will be in my thoughts during these rough times....

LonelyplanetXO
January 22nd, 2009, 18:48
Certainly agree that its sad to see good people lose their jobs, but there may be a silver lining to this. The problem with both FS9 and FSX were that they were heavily entrenched in M$' doctrine of "force hardware upgrades" and "force people to buy our rubbish OS products" which led to some really crap code and resulting performance issues which is what split the community in the first place. Fact is only Microsoft can get away with that sort of behaviour. The FS franchise itself is a valuable title - possibly the worlds longest running game so the rights are worth $$$. What if someone like EA gets hold of it? Imagine a version of FS that runs smoothly on any machine...even a Mac, or Linux machine! Maybe MS selling off FS is the best thing that could happen to the title. And all those talented developers would find an open door if that occurred.

LPXO

stlkrash
January 22nd, 2009, 18:48
Gibbage get with me ASAP

Kiwikat
January 22nd, 2009, 18:58
Certainly agree that its sad to see good people lose their jobs, but there may be a silver lining to this. The problem with both FS9 and FSX were that they were heavily entrenched in M$' doctrine of "force hardware upgrades" and "force people to buy our rubbish OS products" which led to some really crap code and resulting performance issues which is what split the community in the first place. Fact is only Microsoft can get away with that sort of behaviour. The FS franchise itself is a valuable title - possibly the worlds longest running game so the rights are worth $$$. What if someone like EA gets hold of it? Imagine a version of FS that runs smoothly on any machine...even a Mac, or Linux machine! Maybe MS selling off FS is the best thing that could happen to the title. And all those talented developers would find an open door if that occurred.

LPXO

This may be a bit off topic but I have to entirely disagree with you.

EVERY other type of "game" or entertainment title advances hardware or software design somehow. Hardly anyone could play Crysis a year ago, now its "easy" for computers to run. I don't want the next flight simulator to look like Xplane or FS9, I want it to look like FTX or better. If you want to play a version that runs on a 5 year old machine, play a 5 year old sim. I prefer cutting-edge technology.

fliger747
January 22nd, 2009, 18:58
Gibbage:

Good luck with the future. There are always places for talented individuals, though the adjustment when you have finally advanced to the first circle, to shovel coal to feed the fires at some lower level can be difficult.

Good folks and good camaraderie here, so hope to see more of you!

Cheers and good fortune! Tom

jmig
January 22nd, 2009, 19:14
Gibbage:

Good luck with the future. There are always places for talented individuals, though the adjustment when you have finally advanced to the first circle, to shovel coal to feed the fires at some lower level can be difficult.

Good folks and good camaraderie here, so hope to see more of you!

Cheers and good fortune! Tom

What an uplifting and positive post. I too wish everyone at Aces the best ion the future. It is not an end. Only the start of a new adventure.

Pepere
January 22nd, 2009, 19:15
FSX Dead? Man if I were an addon developer I'd go for it. Now they can make addons that will really make this sim (pardon the expression) fly! This version of flight sim can go for years and only get better. :amen:

David

Prowler1111
January 22nd, 2009, 19:24
and further - I would hope that some of the 3rd party groups would get in contact with any ACES people that might be available for hire directly or for consultation - to help with ongoing FSX related projects..or in Razbams case future 'from the ground up' flight simulations...EULA's and NDA's notwithstanding ofcourse

Well, just to add, we need the following:
- particles programmer (effects, flames, smoke trails, sparks, bombing/napalm/white phosphorus etc)

- interface programmer (menus, map, mission editor)

- campaign programmer (mission builders)

- gfx shaders programer (especially post production ones like HDR lighting)


Sorry for hijacking the thread............................................ .............................Not HighJacked at all.....Thanks for putting this out there for any former ACES members to see...It may help.....(Harleyman)

Prowler

Gibbage
January 22nd, 2009, 19:27
Gibbage:

Good luck with the future. There are always places for talented individuals, though the adjustment when you have finally advanced to the first circle, to shovel coal to feed the fires at some lower level can be difficult.

Good folks and good camaraderie here, so hope to see more of you!

Cheers and good fortune! Tom

I cant say I agree with you fully. Doing 3rd part work is in now way lowering myself. Lowering my pay? Yes. But NOT in ANY way degrading. What I was doing at MS is the same thing I did when I was working on the 3rd party stuff freelance.

Here is how I look at it. I LOVE aircraft. I love creating things. I love flying. There is NO BETTER job I can think of that combine those 3 aspects into 1 nice little package. A lot of times I had to ask myself "They PAY me for this?" since I was doing what I love! Modeling aircraft!

Working with the guys at Aces was GREAT. An amazing group of people, and a vast wealth of knowledge. I will miss working with them very much, and will keep in contact with them as much as possible. Im just hoping that I can continue to do what I love, and model aircraft! I do have an F4U I need to wrap up. It was put on hold a bit once I got the job at MS.

Gibbage

heywooood
January 22nd, 2009, 19:35
Well, just to add, we need the following:
- particles programmer (effects, flames, smoke trails, sparks, bombing/napalm/white phosphorus etc)

- interface programmer (menus, map, mission editor)

- campaign programmer (mission builders)

- gfx shaders programer (especially post production ones like HDR lighting)


Sorry for hijacking the thread............................................ .............................Not HighJacked at all.....Thanks for putting this out there for any former ACES members to see...It may help.....(Harleyman)

Prowler


Hijacking ??! Hell - just what I meant to see when I said it - prolly music to some ACES ears Prowler :ernae:

Razbams Korean Combat flight sim might just have found a bullpup to the fast track

Smudge
January 22nd, 2009, 19:49
Bugger...

Firstly, my thoughts are truly with the boys & girls at Aces and their families. Regardless of the industry, jobs around the world are being lost and people are finding times hard. In this industry, sales are down...sure I'm managing to keep the bills paid and will continue to pump out planes until I have to get myself a 'real' job..lol. Hopefully then there'll be one for me!

In either event, generally when one door closes another one opens, which whilst probably unrealistic is a nice optimistic way of looking at things today.

I doubt if the guys at Aces decided to form their own design house outside of MS to focus on a new breed of civilian flightsim, would be able to make use of any FS branding, code etc due to it being MS IP, although someone with some legal experience might be able to shed some light on that. In that case, chances of MS renewing the FS product down the road would purely be on a profit basis.

One thing I though about after the 'oh my god' feeling subsided is the simple fact that the main reason FS is STILL going after all these years is one major point... US. The flightsim community is a varied and close knit group of people, and regardless of your point of view, many would agree it is the FS community and fans that keep the product alive.

WE keep buying it every new version, WE keep downloading freeware work from talented designers who have a passion for one aircraft, airfield or another. WE keep a plethora of small businesses in the payware industry afloat (a point that I am immensely greatfull for!) because WE purchase their work, be it good, bad or ugly.. :)

Whilst ACES is no more, and whilst MS may well have put the stop on any FS releases for the forseeable future, please let us all remember that WE as a community of flightsim fans are the glue that holds it all together. Providing WE continue to support commercial developers, freeware developers, virtual airlines, military fans etc, there will ALWAYS be an avid flightsim following, because simply it is of our making.

I only have to think of the huge fan following of the Falcon 4 sim.. That sim was dropped more than a few years ago from Microproses stable (If I remember correctly) yet its huge fan following, and large ability to mod (much like the FS product) has kept it going to the point where the source code was released many years after for a new build. (again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

My heart goes out to the families of those affected by the job cuts, however what would be an even bigger shame would be for the community to drop the hobby just because MS has ceased development of the core program. There are many years left in FSX, many many years in the hobby, and many people who have invested years of their lives at keyboards, mice and joysticks, often to the chargrin of wives/sons/daugters/husbands/dog and/or cat!

I for one will be developing my wares right until Karen tells me to get a real job..lol.

And so it should be.

:woot:

n4gix
January 22nd, 2009, 19:51
Wow, I really feel for the employees, but can't help but be angry, especially if the decision came from the bean counters. That would probably mean that the console design studios within MS are still going strong, at least for now. if true, yet another reason to NOT support consoles for me.

According to another article from Gamasutra:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21971

"The company says that while Xbox 360 platform and PC game revenue drove the increase, it was offset by a decrease in revenue from the company's Zune music player."

How does it make any financial sense to kill one of the cash cows to support a spavined mule? :faint:

CodyValkyrie
January 22nd, 2009, 19:59
Gibbage, I sent you a message. I'm sure you already know. I would like to talk if you don't mind.

stlkrash
January 22nd, 2009, 20:10
This is UNREAL. This is like the Navy baggin the Tcat. To the guys effected. I am sorry to hear this news and hope you guys get work ASAP. The dev community just made a big gain, M$'s loss. But being as we the flightsim community have one if not the biggest true community following, I am sure things will look up.

N6722C
January 22nd, 2009, 20:11
Maybe MS selling off FS is the best thing that could happen to the title. And all those talented developers would find an open door if that occurred.

LPXO

How did laying off employees suddenly JUMP to "selling off MSFS" :gossip:

Temporary setback -- current ecconomic times -- will not last.

Consider ESP, and its potential. No way will ESP die. It might sleep for a bit, :sleep: but it's potential is to far to great to be burried.
And with ESP, comes Consumer Spin offs like MSFS.

Naturally, we all feel for the ACES employees, but this is happening to many Worldwide.

As far as the USA is concerned - BIG changes for most .. but not the end of the world.

Geoff_D

PlaneEater
January 22nd, 2009, 20:57
Until about 2pm today, I shared an office with Gibbage.

I was at ACES as a contractor in 2007 when we shipped FSX:Acceleration, and I built some of the mission set pieces - the Beamtrawler, the Sugarloaf cable cars / facility, the big SAC hangars at Kirtland AFB, some others - plus painted the liveries for Xpack's P-51 (and cleaned up the mess of a model).

I returned to ACES this August, and I dragged Gibbage up here in October to join the team because there was another contractor spot open. We'd known each other since we were in the IL-2 community and worked together on Pacific Fighters, and we'd stayed in touch over the years in between. About a week ago, our boss - who is a flat-out awesome guy - extended my contract to the full span, scheduled to take my 100 day break in July. That's not going to end up being the case.

The only thing I can add is that I can verify what Gibbage has said, and that I lost my job today as well.

One thing that every person at ACES will tell you is that the community and each of you in it mean the world to us for sharing our passion of flight, and so it really hurts that Gib and I can't tell you more. I was a FS fan before I joined the FS team, and being able to work on the sim we all love so much was a dream come true. I just want to thank everyone here for the time and passion they've poured into Flight Sim for so many years, and to let you all know that every person at ACES is in awe of how much the community cares about what we build.

Gib and I both got to keep our plane-buildin' skills, and I'm looking for paying work as well. If anybody wants an ACES-trained aircraft artist (and I can provide other work experience and references... ;) go ahead and ping me here, or hit my web-portfolio: www.garagebay9.com (http://www.garagebay9.com)

Thanks again for all the kind words and encouragement during times like this, folks. It really is helping make things a little easier.

- PlaneEater

warchild
January 22nd, 2009, 21:22
I for one will be developing my wares right until Karen tells me to get a real job..lol.

And so it should be.

:woot:

And I for one will be right there with ya. Just, at my age, dont expect me to look for a "real" job anytime soon, or in this lifetime even..

There's lot of negatives here, but that said, theres a lot of positives as well. You folks at Aces: Maybe you couldnt write an fde to save your skins, but you more than knew how to create flight physics in the main engine. Just because Aces may be gone doesnt mean that fs is going away. It'll be here for a very long time to come, as long as we, as a community of developers and enthusiasts continue to explore tis thing we call flight sim and push the boundaries further out, creating a better and more rewarding experience for everyone.

It was a very long time ago when Broderbund sold their F-16 Fighting Falcon to Electronic Arts, and again a long time ago that Electronic Arts stopped producing the game, but you can still get it. The F-16 community kept it alive. Except for dates and names, i really dont see a difference, except maybe one. FS has a much larger community.

Another aspect also is that there is X-Plane, and possible cross development for it.. Eliminate the flight sim worlds religious jihad's and work towards one single community (yeahhhh,, i'm a dreamer, but at least i dream big).

In the early Ninties, Bill Gates made an announcement stating that by the year 2000 Microsoft would own all the desktops in the world. A few years later they attempted o get everyone to purchase and use network terminals where you would turn on the terminal and log into your account on the web.. Welll, no one was interested then, so now, we have the X-Box. Maybe it's a good thing they arent going to be developing fs any more. .I personally dont trust their motives. I expect however that fs being a game to them will maybe get ported to the X-box Live and if you want to play it you can pay a fee and log on and fly the toy planes. Otherwise you can pay out the nose for ESP..

It all just means that we as a community, need to be stronger, not freak out, be a little more patient with each other, a little more helpful with the newbies, and a little more adventurous in what we do. Who knows. This may be a golden opportunity for us all, and I'm sorry, but i'm not going to grouse over the loss of ACES if it means those people are now free to develope in ways they have wanted too and couldnt, and cn now be more active with the rest of us..

Pam

warchild
January 22nd, 2009, 21:32
Let's be sure not to lose or damage our FS9 and FSX CDs then. May not be able to buy replacements down the line, and we may need 'em for a while!



Mike

My only concern here is that each time you install FSX you have to register it either via the interface or by telephone call.. This could seriously put a crimp in our continuing to enjoy this software.

Pam

Cerberus
January 22nd, 2009, 21:33
I’m still having a lot of trouble keeping up with all of the projects we have going on, and could also use some good help again. Don’t hesitate to ask if anyone needs anything.

barryward12345
January 22nd, 2009, 21:37
How will this affect FSx activation? Will MS continue to sell FSx?

Barry

Gibbage
January 22nd, 2009, 21:51
Im sure MS will still handle activation. That was handled by MS, not some PC at Aces studio.

Francois
January 22nd, 2009, 22:21
Anyone need a good aircraft modeler with LOTS of experience?

I am sure that all well-known development houses like RealAir, Flight1, Eaglesoft, Aerosoft, FSAddon and others could use your skills and expertise...... as I am sure that FS isn't dying just yet !

However, working in the add-on business sure isn't as lucrative as being a Microsoft employee, I am sure .... well... up to a few days ago that is :help:

CodyValkyrie
January 22nd, 2009, 22:27
I am sure that all well-known development houses like RealAir, Flight1, Eaglesoft, Aerosoft, FSAddon and others could use your skills and expertise...... as I am sure that FS isn't dying just yet !

However, working in the add-on business sure isn't as lucrative as being a Microsoft employee, I am sure .... well... up to a few days ago that is :help:
You speak the truth! I'm sitting here looking at the last couple of dollars on my desk until my next paycheck. Man, I wish cigarettes weren't so expensive.

n4gix
January 22nd, 2009, 22:39
If we could get every flightsimmer in the world to pony up $10 or so, maybe we'd have enough capital to start our own flightsimulator line... :applause:

P-12C
January 22nd, 2009, 22:42
I would love to jump into this thread and shed some light on what happened today, but I must be respectful of the NDA I am under.

I will be looking for work soon, and that can be scary, but I am optimistic that I will land on my feet.

I am VERY proud of my work and the work of all my teammates. FSX will continue to be sold and should have very long legs with all of the great work being done by third party developers.

I'll be checking in to keep some tabs on what is going on in the Flight Sim world.

Thank you for all of your well wishes,

Paul

CBris
January 22nd, 2009, 22:51
Reading this thread in parallel with the one on Cessna's standpoint on royalties (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=2694) it looks like the whole industry is cutting of its face to spite its nose. (Deliberate reversal of that saying) But if anyone is to take up the reins, they'll have to pay royalties to Microsoft. Will EMI be handling the case?

What any new flight sim will look like is anyone's guess right now, but as long as it is away from the Redmond corporate mindset and gets the necessary leadership it deserves, we are still in with a chance.

I really feel for the ACES crew, I also worry for all the other third party developers - from hardware and software and I hope that any new FS owner actually gets the core code as well - royalty free of course.

CodyValkyrie
January 22nd, 2009, 22:52
As I have said already in PM to a couple of guys here, let me know if you are looking for some work. I'm keeping my eyes out for a good fit for various clients. Hopefully if nothing else, it wouldn't hurt to do a few spot jobs here and there with some of the guys I work with to make a few bucks.

*shrugs*

Good luck to you all regardless and thanks for your hard work up to this point.

grunau_baby
January 22nd, 2009, 23:08
Apart from the shocking news, I really wish everyone personally involved the best for the future! I know how it feels since I lost my own one-man-business 4 years ago when the german webdesign market literally collapsed, but there were other challenges ahead and things actually became better. Donīt give up!!!

I also think there are many chances elsewhere for you talented people. An independant new simline is just one (but very unlike, I guess) future possibity from my usual "against the grain" thinking (I had a dream: FS without MS limitations:monkies:).

I think the existing platform can still give us enough to enjoy with all the creative input and hopefully it turns out that you can make a living with your labour of love. So I guess we now really should think twice before argueing about addon pricing in the future:redf:.

Our comunity has seen many downturns in the past, but this is a big one for sure, but letīs hope it is a) temporary (market-related) b) giving more time for enhancing the exisiting platform c) creating new ways

Time will tell, maybe itīs still too fresh to be fully overlooking it all.

Alex

empeck
January 23rd, 2009, 00:09
Best wishes to guys at Aces, it is shocking news to hear FS franchise is being axed :( Hope you guys find a new job soon.

fsdreamscapes
January 23rd, 2009, 00:47
Hey Guys,

There may be some opportunities here at FS Dreamscapes for anyone at ACES looking to develop some projects...

I'm going to chase up a few leads tonight as well and see where those leads may go...

Good opportunity to rebuild a sim from the ground up...

Email me at dean|AT|fsdreamscapes|DOT|com if anyone from ACES is interested in developing some projects...

My prayers are with you guys,

Dean.

harleyman
January 23rd, 2009, 00:53
Still in shock over here....Can't believe this horrible news for all these MS people....


I like the idea above about the entire community chipping in and getting a new sim going..That ever happens..I'm in.......


I also wonder if and how this affects the latest MSTS that I have been drooling over for months now?

Looks like I can drop the need for an i7 build now....

RickN
January 23rd, 2009, 01:42
I feel for the folks at ACES, not so much for MS. In fact I am switching my companies systems to Linux this year.

Anyway folks I have two words for you. Flight Gear.

A free, open source flightsim that could really be something if the talented people here were working on it.

I am not into the civilian sims much preferring the combat sims, but even I fly Flight Gear at times for something different. I am not sure if you could make payware add-ons for it but I do not see why not.

txnetcop
January 23rd, 2009, 01:57
To all you guys at ACES I want to encourage you. A very short few years ago I lost my dream job of 18 years in Silicon Valley. I was making money hand over fist and thought it would never end. It did and abruptly. I was handed divorce papers soon after, suffered from a serious health issue soon after that. I thought my world was collapsing around me and soom there would be no more me. All my friends walked away from me except one and he died two years later. I thought of suicide seriously. We lost our home, our plane, our cars and I was living out of a used KIA. She had a thing going with guy that had money and landed on her feet.

Guys, that was the second time in my life I had lost everything I cared about. At that most desperate point of my life I decided I could wallow in this or do something about it. God gave me the strength to take one step at a time and rebuild my life. It's been a little while, and I don't make what I used to, but I'm happy. I have a wonderful new wife, and in spite of some divorce issues that will never go away-don't ever get a California divorce-MOVE somewhere else, my life is a good one and I started a small network contractor business that keeps me afloat. I can grow it if I want to.

One thing I learned while serving the U.S. Army Airborne that always kept me going-that is another story. There is always one more thing you can do. Never give up, never quit, never say die, but most all, look at what skills you possess and make the most out of the tools you have to work with. There will always be obstacles in our way even in good times, we must learn to adapt and overcome. Every soldier knows this, and so should every man, woman and child.

This is a big community, and I think any of us would be willing to pony up whatever to help you guys, if you decide to build a new ground up sim or whatever other clever ideas you come up with. Together we are mighty. The economy we have now will not end as long as capitalism is alive and well. It is sick and in trouble because of some greedy wall street thieves, but not dead-not even with some new fools at the helm-don't make this political. Every administration has them!

We really appreciate what you guys have done for us. Don't allow yourselves to fall into depression, don't hesitate to ask us for help, but most important don't give up your dreams.
Ted

deathfromafar
January 23rd, 2009, 02:22
Forgive me if this has been asked elsewhere in here. But I'd like to ask the ACES guys who posted here a question. "If" M/S is getting out of the Flight Simulator business or it is suspected they will do so, do you guys think it might be possible for another entity to buy FS from them to keep it going? If so maybe a mass fundraiser in the community and other sources could contribute a large portion of not all that is needed to acquire the rights to the product. Maybe it is a huge longshot but if M/S is going to drop FS, then why not?

michael davies
January 23rd, 2009, 03:18
Well this puts a crimp in my day, sad to see job losses but thats a global axe and it swings close to many here I'm sure, my self included.

Its the potential loss of TS2 that I personally find particularily hard, we already have a decent platform for FS ( FSx ) to keep us going for a few years but in TS there's nothing except RS and its pitfalls and the original TS1. This is MS second abort in that project vein and I highly suspect we'll never seen a new train sim for good deal of time.

Sad times ahead for many I fear.

Best

Michael

Snuffy
January 23rd, 2009, 03:36
Maybe all the sim groups can get together now and create one great big world wide combat sim?

Planes, Trains, and ships?

The player picks the era ... and viola he's transported back in time, or to some date in the present and he has a virtual environment to make his combat.

Can you imagine flying a formation of bombers in to occupied Europe and see the rail system running trains and the like ... especially if your target was a rail head ...

Oh well ... I can dream can't I?

RickN
January 23rd, 2009, 03:37
I like your dream, a lot.

empeck
January 23rd, 2009, 03:42
Well this puts a crimp in my day, sad to see job losses but thats a global axe and it swings close to many here I'm sure, my self included.

Its the potential loss of TS2 that I personally find particularily hard, we already have a decent platform for FS ( FSx ) to keep us going for a few years but in TS there's nothing except RS and its pitfalls and the original TS1. This is MS second abort in that project vein and I highly suspect we'll never seen a new train sim for good deal of time.

Sad times ahead for many I fear.

Best

Michael

I agree with you Michael, I have both Trainz and Rail Sim from Kuju, but I don't like them that much. I was waiting for TS2 mostly because of World of Rails concept.

jmig
January 23rd, 2009, 03:56
To all you guys at ACES I want to encourage you. A very short few years ago I lost my dream job of 18 years in Silicon Valley. I was making money hand over fist and thought it would never end. It did and abruptly. I was handed divorce papers soon after, suffered from a serious health issue soon after that. I thought my world was collapsing around me and soom there would be no more me. All my friends walked away from me except one and he died two years later. I thought of suicide seriously. We lost our home, our plane, our cars and I was living out of a used KIA. She had a thing going with guy that had money and landed on her feet.

Guys, that was the second time in my life I had lost everything I cared about. At that most desperate point of my life I decided I could wallow in this or do something about it. God gave me the strength to take one step at a time and rebuild my life. It's been a little while, and I don't make what I used to, but I'm happy. I have a wonderful new wife, and in spite of some divorce issues that will never go away-don't ever get a California divorce-MOVE somewhere else, my life is a good one and I started a small network contractor business that keeps me afloat. I can grow it if I want to.

One thing I learned while serving the U.S. Army Airborne that always kept me going-that is another story. There is always one more thing you can do. Never give up, never quit, never say die, but most all, look at what skills you possess and make the most out of the tools you have to work with. There will always be obstacles in our way even in good times, we must learn to adapt and overcome. Every soldier knows this, and so should every man, woman and child.

This is a big community, and I think any of us would be willing to pony up whatever to help you guys, if you decide to build a new ground up sim or whatever other clever ideas you come up with. Together we are mighty. The economy we have now will not end as long as capitalism is alive and well. It is sick and in trouble because of some greedy wall street thieves, but not dead-not even with some new fools at the helm-don't make this political. Every administration has them!

We really appreciate what you guys have done for us. Don't allow yourselves to fall into depression, don't hesitate to ask us for help, but most important don't give up your dreams.
Ted

Ted, it is rare that a person gets to our age without taking a canvas hitting blow or two. I share some of your story. It hurts, it sucks, but that, unfortunately is life. You later find there is life after X.

The guys at Aces with find there is life after Aces. We in the Ft Sim community wish them an even better future. Just know guys, that we support you in our hearts and prayers.

And Bill, I will gladly put up the $10.00.

JT8D-9A
January 23rd, 2009, 04:40
It's sad that we always have to lose something to fully realize its value.
Many thanks to ACES for their work and dedication to the FS community and all the best to you!
I'm very happy to fly ACES Flight Simulator X and to be able to enjoy its innovations.

BTW: http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13716

Roger
January 23rd, 2009, 04:45
Said my piece at The Old Hangar but it is truely a sad day for Aces and simmers alike.:frown:

gera
January 23rd, 2009, 04:50
Come On Amigos!!!!...our beloved Sim was and is a "No Money" maker for Microsoft. So when things go sour in
a company what do you do?...cut off the products that donīt make money fast. I and many of you were not impressed by FSX at the start and boy!!!! MS got the wrath of so many!!!!.....by that time FS9 must have trickle to nickels and dimes and some medicine doctor told the Aces to get going with Trains2!!!!! that fumbled the ball alright. Then we say the boss jumping ship followed by an economic meltdown, now MS kicks butt.......this was an accident ready to happen. But as everything in this world, things evolve either by discovery or earthquakes (political, business wise or sentimental). So enjoy FSX or FS9 for the next one is going to take a loooooooooooong time. Back to the my Missions.
---I thing there are Greater Opportunities today than yesterday!!!! I wish I was 26!!!

michael davies
January 23rd, 2009, 05:00
I agree with you Michael, I have both Trainz and Rail Sim from Kuju, but I don't like them that much. I was waiting for TS2 mostly because of World of Rails concept.

Its the FSx physics and graphics that I wanted most, neither of the current contenders do both well, but do one ( graphics ) very well.

Whilst the loss of the majority ( all ? ) of Aces is a blow, it may not be as bad as one initially thinks, I've long since been a vocal adversary to this twice to thrice yearly churning out of new platforms, for developers its mind numbing to have to keep relearning new tools every two or three years.

If you look to FS9 there still developing and learning new stuff, even in CFS2 there's new stuff being found out now and again, looking at FSx we see weapons, ships and effects showing up now as more and more developers get into the sim, add to that Accusim and other developments going on theres plenty of mileage left in FSx. On a positive note theres a good two maybe three years of growth left in FSx, perhaps knowing that there isn't an FSxi will allow developers to relax and fully explore the current environment, I suspect in the past there has been a lot of rush and hype to get something new out and then rush onto something else, must get it done and get a return or mileage before it becomes redundant with a new sim on the horizon.

Developers are no longer in the two or three year relearn cycle, now they can settle back and explore properly, the end result will be better models and vastly better experience all round.

The previous concept was much like a platform game, take the Tomb Raider series, you rush through to get to the end and probably miss all the pockets of gold and secrets, the same could be said for FSx, now we don't have to rush, now we can look in all the nooks and crannies and discover much more, I especially like the look that the nautical side is taking, though I doubt theres much demand for 100,000 dwt container ships I'd love to make LOL.

So whilst the loss of the Aces staff and there devastating loss of a job is a bad thing, it may be the best thing to ever happen to the community by slowing down the development race and the thus raise the level of experience to new levels.

Best

Michael

JoeW
January 23rd, 2009, 05:06
Judging by the weather I have been downloading, Jepperesen has gotten the Ax too. FSX weather has always been off a bit but it ain't even close now.
FS Meteo is a much better choice.
Do ya'll find this true?
:faint:

JimC1702
January 23rd, 2009, 05:26
All I will add to this thread is that I really hope this is just a temporary shelving and that the team will be back at work when the economy straightens around.

Fortunately for us, FSX has "legs". Heck, it'll be another year or two till we have hardware to run it at its full potential. And if it's no longer a "moving target", the third party developers can really start cranking out the add-ons. Development has been really slow to this point because of SP1, SP2/Acceleration; the game was constantly changing just when developers thought they had a handle on it.

Best wishes to the ACES team and all the employees who have lost their jobs, hopefully it's just a temporary setback.

Jim

jimjones
January 23rd, 2009, 05:29
What a day. First I could not log on to AVSIM, then saw that flightsim.com did not have upload updates yesterday. Then
at simflight.com there was the zinger about MS and ACES. And now this thread. WOW. How terrible.

Sorry for the guys at ACES, hope you get on your feet soon.

I thought MSFS would be here forever. What about Windows?

We better make backup copies of everything, and protect those FS and Windows disks. In the past some of those early FS versions don't work on the later Windows/PC versions. Will future Windows eventually make all our FS versions obsolete?

Maybe ESP will serve as the core for future MSFS versions when the economy is better, provided ESP survives.

Should be an advantage to X-Plane sales.

Hopefully the FS community will continue to support addon developers, SOH and other FS web sites.

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to enjoy FSX and all the great addons, and hope for good news in the future.

krazycolin
January 23rd, 2009, 06:01
ESP is gone too.

Thoe6969
January 23rd, 2009, 06:19
Yeh Bill Gates is laughing all the way to the bank,saying thanks suckers for making me rich by buying me products.:kilroy:

Kiwikat
January 23rd, 2009, 06:22
I was hoping this would miraculously disappear overnight... but it didn't.

Good luck to everyone who was let go. Our hobby must always continue.

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
January 23rd, 2009, 06:25
Anybody of a mind to vent could send the boss their thoughts on the subject steveb@microsoft.com (steveb@microsoft.com) , the decision is final no doubt, the Beans have been counted , PC gaming is toast .... Beans on Toast , an old Quebec Favourite ,, wonder what he is having for lunch today ?

harleyman
January 23rd, 2009, 06:32
Anybody of a mind to vent could send the boss their thoughts on the subject steveb@microsoft.com (steveb@microsoft.com) , the decision is final no doubt, the Beans have been counted , PC gaming is toast .... Beans on Toast , an old Quebec Favourite ,, wonder what he is having for lunch today ?


Already sent two his way.............:amen:


What is this ESP ????????

txnetcop
January 23rd, 2009, 06:37
http://www.microsoft.com/esp/

harleyman
January 23rd, 2009, 07:03
http://www.microsoft.com/esp/


Thanks Ted..After asking the stupid question I googled it and read up on it......:faint:

FLighT01
January 23rd, 2009, 07:17
Very sad, for those MS employees affected as well as the members of the flight simming community around the world.

CodyValkyrie
January 23rd, 2009, 07:25
I'm still trying to find out the details, but it may be that ESP stays around. My understanding is that there is still a skeleton crew around of core ACES employees (ESP). If I hear more, I'll certainly let you all know.

cheezyflier
January 23rd, 2009, 07:32
to all those folks who lost their jobs:
best of luck to you. the talent you posess will see to it you're not job hunting very long i would suppose. thanks for doing your best while you were there at aces.

i have to say in my mind, it initially appears to be a good thing for developers and hobbyists. in my mind it sounds logical that we would see more/better add-ons for fsx because it will allow the sim to have a longer life.
frankly i was getting a little uneasy with all the talk of what fs11 might be like. my rig barely runs fsx right now. i am encouraged to think that fsx will be current when i am finally able to upgrade, and there should be some really butt kickin add ons for it by then as well.




One thing I learned while serving the U.S. Army Airborne that always kept me going-that is another story. There is always one more thing you can do. Never give up, never quit, never say die, but most all, look at what skills you possess and make the most out of the tools you have to work with. There will always be obstacles in our way even in good times, we must learn to adapt and overcome. Every soldier knows this, and so should every man, woman and child.


probably the most important thing i've ever seen posted on any forum, anywhere, anytime :applause:




Judging by the weather I have been downloading, Jepperesen has gotten the Ax too. FSX weather has always been off a bit
Do ya'll find this true?
:faint:

yes, it has baffled me since the start


.

Bruce Thompson
January 23rd, 2009, 10:16
Very sad news indeed, I think Ted said it all in his post No 80 above.

I 've been there , done that and bought the bloody Tea shirt also.

Very well worded Ted:applause:

Good luck to all of you ACES, and many thanks for what you have already done for all us Sim Flyers.

kilo delta
January 23rd, 2009, 11:41
I too would like to offer my well wishes to the former ACES team. No point dwelling on the past, but instead look forward to a new chapter in your lives. I was made redundant 6 years ago, having worked in my company for 13 years, so I've an idea of what you may be going through. My wife had only recently given birth to our first child and we had a new mortgage at the time too. I re-trained myself and got a better job in a completely different field soon after. My current job prospects aren't looking great at the moment either , but I'll persevere and will face that challenge if and when it arises.
That which doesn't kill you can only make you stronger!:amen:

S
January 23rd, 2009, 12:37
I was more sad when they closed Ensemble Studios. Bunch of morons. I devoted so much time to their games and they were so successful. I hope Microsoft explodes. Free market to power. Though realistically I know greed is a shapeshifting occurance. Talk about revolving doors. Oh well. Really sorry for all the dedicated people at ACES. That sucks! Let's hope they will be able to find other game developers that are willing to take them and their knowledge aboard and put it to good use!

ryanbatc
January 23rd, 2009, 12:40
If we could get every flightsimmer in the world to pony up $10 or so, maybe we'd have enough capital to start our own flightsimulator line... :applause:

Where do I send the 10 bucks? :amen:

noshadez
January 23rd, 2009, 15:27
This can in no way be just because of slow sales..It is that- but it is probably also future predictions of being taxed to death..Microsoft are considered the so called (Rich) and they are probably securing the planes and trains.. is all for the next 4 years.. Taxation to prosperity is as much a myth as trickle down economics:karate:

heywooood
January 23rd, 2009, 16:05
oh fer cryin out loud

N2056
January 23rd, 2009, 16:09
This can in no way be just because of slow sales..It is that- but it is probably also future predictions of being taxed to death..Microsoft are considered the so called (Rich) and they are probably securing the planes and trains.. is all for the next 4 years.. Taxation to prosperity is as much a myth as trickle down economics:karate:

I'm sorry, but I'm baffled with this :isadizzy:

heywooood
January 23rd, 2009, 16:24
this will be missed 2: I don't s'pose anyone can tell us how far along it was?....I'm a real masochist I know...

N2056
January 23rd, 2009, 16:42
Wow! Nice model...SD-40-2?

heywooood
January 23rd, 2009, 16:47
yes - check out Train Sim 2 or TS2 and look at those beautiful models...its just sad

harleyman
January 23rd, 2009, 17:11
this will be missed 2: I don't s'pose anyone can tell us how far along it was?....I'm a real masochist I know...




From what I hear it was due out at Christmas..but they ran over with it and it was not ready then..How far off it really was is as guess ....

noshadez
January 23rd, 2009, 17:42
I'm sorry, but I'm baffled with this :isadizzy:
Ok let me un-baffle you-- The Rich such as who make big bucks and control companies such as Microsoft are not going to be a hero, take a pay cut or sell their mansion for a smaller modest house for the (We can) or (Change) feel good thingy --or for the big one (Spread the wealth)=Tax the rich- to keep their employees such as the aces team..What they will do (as history easily predicts) is Fire most of everybody and hole up..thus the employees get the ax..In other if you have not heard the new president of the US wants to spread the wealth (soak the rich with heavy taxes) Thus large companies are rolling in the sidewalks until (If) the storm passes

N2056
January 23rd, 2009, 17:49
Sorry. I won't bite...

heywooood
January 23rd, 2009, 17:57
I'm sorry, but I'm baffled with this :isadizzy:
Ok let me un-baffle you-- The Rich such as who make big bucks and control companies such as Microsoft are not going to be a hero, take a pay cut or sell their mansion for a smaller modest house for the (We can) or (Change) feel good thingy --or for the big one (Spread the wealth)=Tax the rich- to keep their employees such as the aces team..What they will do (as history easily predicts) is Fire most of everybody and hole up..thus the employees get the ax..In other if you have not heard the new president of the US wants to spread the wealth (soak the rich with heavy taxes) Thus large companies are rolling in the sidewalks until (If) the storm passes

no - prolly has much more to do with the relative failure of Vista and the Zune fiasco and the ruined economy, than political rhetoric...

this is not a political forum but Yes we Can talk about flight sim news and try to Change the emotions of those so recently affected from one of sadness and trepidation to one of some hopefullness whilst also showing gratitude from the community to those who helped make Flight Sim the very best of its kind bar none.

777 Studios - Jason
January 23rd, 2009, 18:32
Hi guys,

I just wanted to chime in and say what a bummer this is for everyone involved. Sorry to hear of the shut down of ACES. I think a lot of us in the community had friends or knew someone who worked there. I hope the talented folks who worked there will land safely somewhere else.

Jason

spotlope
January 23rd, 2009, 18:42
I'm sorry, but I'm baffled with this :isadizzy:
Ok let me un-baffle you-- The Rich such as who make big bucks and control companies such as Microsoft are not going to be a hero, take a pay cut or sell their mansion for a smaller modest house for the (We can) or (Change) feel good thingy --or for the big one (Spread the wealth)=Tax the rich- to keep their employees such as the aces team..What they will do (as history easily predicts) is Fire most of everybody and hole up..thus the employees get the ax..In other if you have not heard the new president of the US wants to spread the wealth (soak the rich with heavy taxes) Thus large companies are rolling in the sidewalks until (If) the storm passes

Yep, and freedom is slavery. Only one problem... you're 24 years too late.

michael davies
January 23rd, 2009, 22:15
From what I hear it was due out at Christmas..but they ran over with it and it was not ready then..How far off it really was is as guess ....

The 2008 Xmas deadline was put back a long time ago, mid last year I think, the latest deadline I'd heard was 2009 Q2 or realisitcally Q3, it was quite advanced and a lot of good art work had already been produced.

Best

Michael

CBris
January 23rd, 2009, 23:02
Microsoft Flight Simulator is dead, long live its successor.

There's a thriving addon market that is making big business in the simulated flight world. So what is now really stopping a breakaway team to create a new aviation simulator? All the addon makers would gladly support a new venture with it's own SDK.

It would have to be created from the ground up, just to make sure no proprietary MS bloat-code was used. But keep your eyes open... New aviation simulation software won't take long in appearing and WE will be the judges. As long as any new development does what FSX and FS9 did OR that the new SDK at least makes it EASY for software developers to re-compile their products, the WE win

Microsoft does not own ANY of the thousands of former third party developers and it is THEY who Microsoft had to thank for the success of FS, not the other way around. So the Big M has meigsed up. All the addon developers own their own code and can use it for any new simulation that decides to make it easy for them.

So who's first? Flight Unlimited, you still there? Get to work on an SDK...

extrudinator
January 24th, 2009, 03:58
Perhaps I'm in denial, but I believe that the death of Flight Simulator is greatly exaggerated. Take a look at this item from just a few months ago.



Living In De-material World: On Microsoft, Train SIM and the Virtual Everything (http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2008/09/25/living-in-de-material-world-on-microsoft-train-sim-and-the-virtual-everything/)


If Microsoft has suspended this project, it has done so only temporarily. This is the future--with Microsoft taking the lead in the creation of new "metaverses." They can steal a march on Google (already charging in this direction) but in order to do this, there is a bit of awkwardness concerning the internal organization of the company. After all, ACES Studio could not "take over" Microsoft--the tail cannot wag the dog--but, from a strategic point of view, that is what has to happen, to some extent. The demise of ACES Studio is just a strategic redeployment on the way to a much greater goal.

In the future, "simulation" will no longer be a part of Microsoft, it will be ALL of Microsoft.

Prowler1111
January 24th, 2009, 04:55
Well...it already is..they give you the simulation of a full working OS...nad itīs called Vista!!!

Prowler

Boomer
January 24th, 2009, 05:15
My condolences to those that have lost their jobs.

Now in regards to the alleged demise of Flight Sim I suggest ya'll sit back & take a deep breath!

If there is money to be made in FS IMO MS will continue to pursue it. That's what corporations do even with slim margin products. So long as everyone is getting paid & the ledger still in the black its a winner. In the unlikely event that MS doesnt forge on (this is just a guess but I think this was a reorganizational move) someone else will.
As has been previously stated, FSX has a lot of life in it. In fact IMO it is still in its infancy. We have many years of enjoyment ahead of us with FSX.

Now ya'll quit wringing your hands & rending your clothes & instead pick up your joystick. Or better yet, hit a payware dev's website & buy that addon you have been considering. Go back to enjoying this wonderful sim the good people at Aces have made for us.

Bruce Thompson
January 24th, 2009, 05:49
I see fsinsider is still running, interesting note in Developers Corner regarding ESP.

ananda
January 24th, 2009, 05:56
I see fsinsider is still running.
Not at the moment :help:

hairyspin
January 24th, 2009, 06:06
As a user of an old sim no longer supported by MS, but still loved by many, could I suggest reports of FSX's death are somewhat exaggerated. This probably means the released code is now frozen, so developers can continue to explore all the sim is capable of without looking over their shoulders for an upcoming FS11, 12, XX. It has taken about six years to explore most of what MS Combat Flight Simulator 3 is capable of, so you've got plenty of scope.

It's not just what MS (and especially Aces) put in the shrinkwrap, it's what the community make of these open-platform products that counts in the long run.

but if there's anything for developing you need to download from MS, you might like to get it now....

Francois
January 24th, 2009, 06:13
As a user of an old sim no longer supported by MS, but still loved by many, could I suggest reports of FSX's death are somewhat exaggerated. This probably means the released code is now frozen, so developers can continue to explore all the sim is capable of without looking over their shoulders for an upcoming FS11, 12, XX. It has taken about six years to explore most of what MS Combat Flight Simulator 3 is capable of, so you've got plenty of scope.

It's not just what MS (and especially Aces) put in the shrinkwrap, it's what the community make of these open-platform products that counts in the long run.

Yes, FSX, or FS9 for that matter, isn't dead.

But there are 100 people out there with no job to go back to next Monday. There is a 25+ year 'project' thrown in the toilet.
Ms decided to turn their back on hundreds of thousands of enthusiastic FS customer overnight.
FS11 and MST2 are not seeing the light of day anytime soon if at all.

Sure, add-on development and FS usage will continue for years.... but that's not the point today. Or tomorrow.

Throwing the wrong project out of the window, and losing a bunch of very skilled and talented people, IS !

BASys
January 24th, 2009, 06:15
Hi Folks


Not at the moment :help:
George -
It needs to be prefixed by www.
i.e. http://www.fsinsider.com/

Been like that since they moved servers last year.

HTH
ATB
Paul

hairyspin
January 24th, 2009, 06:40
But there are 100 people out there with no job to go back to next Monday

And they have my full sympathy, but there's precisely zip I can do about that - business is also about making hard-nosed decisions, so MS's decision doesn't surprise; they are there to make money first, software products second. Nasty, but true of any successful company.

The present economic turmoil will produce more casualties before it's over and non-essential industries like simulations will suffer more than the essential ones. That - sorry! - is the point today and I hope we can all keep our jobs until better times return. But I'm not confident...

S
January 24th, 2009, 06:43
Microsoft Flight Simulator is dead, long live its successor.
Amen to that hehe.


So who's first? Flight Unlimited, you still there? Get to work on an SDK...Ah those were solid flightsims that made me fall in love with the California and Washington State area. I'd buy any new sim from them. Time to resurrect Looking Glass Studios.:ernae:

This was 1999....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/FU3_windhawk_rainier_eve.jpg

Pepere
January 24th, 2009, 07:46
My personnel thought - we, FS, got the ax, in part, because we, FS, do/did not not support Vista os. "You, fs community, don't play my, MS, way I'm taking my toys and going home!" :caked:

David :kilroy:

Nick C
January 24th, 2009, 07:53
A lot of remorse and speculation in this thread, so I'll throw in my views too.

As I've said elsewhere, my sympathies go the aces members who lost their jobs, but FS is not dead for the moment. FS9 is still being enjoyed by many thousands, as is FSX and the latter welcomes new users daily who’ve upgraded their PC’s and are able to enjoy all that FSX has to offer. However, it will be sad if Microsoft don’t continue with the development of FS in the future when the economy stabilises. I'd hate for it to follow the demise of their combat series.

To the ACES team. Wherever you end up, best of luck with your future endeavours, drop by when the dust settles and let us know how you're getting on.

:ernae::ernae::ernae:

Kiwikat
January 24th, 2009, 07:54
Well said, Nick. I echo every word you said. :ernae:

Bjoern
January 24th, 2009, 08:38
To quote a post I've made at SimHQ:

"Okay, Microsoft, you've said "A". Now say "B".


Either outsource development to a competent team or assemble a new one including some of the old dogs from ACES.

I'm not sad about seeing ACES go. The FS series desperately needs a fresh start. If it takes a whole new team to achieve this, so be it!"


I'm sure you guys know the "Tomb Raider" series, right?

While the first three parts of the series were excellent games, everything went downhill from part four on. After the awful sixth part published in 2003, the publisher canned the development team and everything went quiet until 2006 when the series made a furious comeback with "Tomb Raider: Legend", developed . And from that point on, the quality of the new games has been excellent.

I'm pretty sure MSFS will rise from the ashes someday and set a new benchmark in terms of civil flightsims.
The new technologies avaible for game engines, like SpeedTree, will make for a way better, more effective experience.

empeck
January 24th, 2009, 09:38
I'm sure you guys know the "Tomb Raider" series, right?

While the first three parts of the series were excellent games, everything went downhill from part four on. After the awful sixth part published in 2003, the publisher canned the development team and everything went quiet until 2006 when the series made a furious comeback with "Tomb Raider: Legend", developed . And from that point on, the quality of the new games has been excellent.

After release of excellent Tomb Raider: Underworld (I think it's the best TR I've played), Eidos fired over thirty people from Crystal Dynamics in return, because it sold 'only' 1,5mln worldwide...

I'm afraid we won't see FSnext, or TS2...

CodyValkyrie
January 24th, 2009, 09:41
You know, if I was Austin over at X-Plane, I would be taking a huge loan out right now and hiring every developer I can think of, and members of the ACES team. There is such a huge opportunity to expand it is unbelievable. If the addon market doesn't follow, build addons in house and sell them until the market catches up.

Francois
January 24th, 2009, 09:45
LOL ! I would think Austin needs to change a thing or two in his operations before he could even think about that.

Bjoern
January 24th, 2009, 10:01
After release of excellent Tomb Raider: Underworld (I think it's the best TR I've played), Eidos fired over thirty people from Crystal Dynamics in return, because it sold 'only' 1,5mln worldwide...

I'm afraid we won't see FSnext, or TS2...

I think we will. Not before 2012/2013 though.

harleyman
January 24th, 2009, 10:09
LOL ! I would think Austin needs to change a thing or two in his operations before he could even think about that.



You said it..I demoed the game last night,and could not even get into the air ..All i did for my 10 minutes was to stumble around......Plus it artifacted all over the place..Seems it does not like the 8.12 ATI drivers at all....Hmmmm

I asked for help on their forums,and the reception was IMO far from friendly...

So my new Christmas unopened present is going back to best buy..They can have it....LOL


Sorry to rant and hijack .....

n4gix
January 24th, 2009, 10:23
From what I hear it was due out at Christmas..but they ran over with it and it was not ready then..How far off it really was is as guess ....

Christmas 2009, not this past Christmas! :whistle:

harleyman
January 24th, 2009, 10:36
Christmas 2009, not this past Christmas! :whistle:


Hmmm I think I was refering to MSTS on that......

Was I wrong? I was pretty sure it was due out around that time....

But not FS 11....... Was not refering to that....

GT182
January 24th, 2009, 13:29
My personnel thought - we, FS, got the ax, in part, because we, FS, do/did not not support Vista os. "You, fs community, don't play my, MS, way I'm taking my toys and going home!" :caked:

David :kilroy:

My thoughs too David.

If you can't play nice and buy what I have to offer you... TS! You can't have my toys at all cause you don'
t play fair. All this from MS might just drive customers away permanently. If Apple and Mac can switch to make all MS games playable, and programs doable... they just might take over MS's coveted spot. Then where will MS be? I'm thinking here ----> :toilet:

Holger Sandmann
January 24th, 2009, 13:56
Hi guys,

as for the TS2 release date, now obsolete, see http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

I don't think it was in Beta yet but pretty far advanced. Can you imagine putting all that creative energy into a huge project like this and then someone from upstairs tells you and your colleagues to clear your desk within 24 hours, and don't forget to switch off the lights...

Cheers, Holger

Pepere
January 24th, 2009, 14:02
If Apple and Mac can switch to make all MS games playable, and programs doable... they just might take over MS's coveted spot. Then where will MS be? I'm thinking here ----> :toilet:

Yep! This move by MS does leave a door wide open in sveral areas for someone or severl someones to move on in. Time will tell. :wave:

David :kilroy:

SolarEagle
January 24th, 2009, 15:50
I thought this idea was pretty good, one of the better ideas anyway. Is something like this at all feasable? Posted by Gizmo at nvnews.



I think that the core guys from aces should get together and write a core 3d engine that can handle all the current FSX SDK complient file formats and market it just as a backend standalone 3d engine,theres really no need for them to build a completly new sim as all the content is out either free or payware FSX's engine problems are all about how it handles its files not the content or weight of those files,this would give the FS community a better platform to work from & be one in the face for the suits at M$

Marvin Carter
January 24th, 2009, 17:26
The sky is falling the sky is falling, run away, run away!!!! :gossip:

Marvin Carter

Lionheart
January 24th, 2009, 18:31
Hi guys,

as for the TS2 release date, now obsolete, see http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

I don't think it was in Beta yet but pretty far advanced. Can you imagine putting all that creative energy into a huge project like this and then someone from upstairs tells you and your colleagues to clear your desk within 24 hours, and don't forget to switch off the lights...

Cheers, Holger


So true....



Bill

Pepere
January 24th, 2009, 19:38
More stuff:
http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+Misses+Earnings+Cuts+5000+Jobs/article14034.htm


David :kilroy:

wombat666
January 24th, 2009, 20:38
I thought this idea was pretty good, one of the better ideas anyway. Is something like this at all feasable? Posted by Gizmo at nvnews.

Financed how??
Employees who find themselves suddenly unemployed need to find a job that will pay for the neccessities of 'real' life.
:173go1:

heywooood
January 24th, 2009, 21:30
I like the SOH idea of setting up a private forum for any ACES team or staff members to use - seems to me a helpful way for some folks to 'decompress' as well as to stay in touch with each other and maybe network on new job possibilities.

...sure would like to be a fly on the wall though...


too bad about TS2 - I guess some other developer is going to have to try to come up with something on that front.

stupid ignorant M$

Lionheart
January 24th, 2009, 22:03
I saw an interesting program tonight.. This guy was part of a group. They all sent in $75.00 dollars (actually 35,00 Pounds Sterling) and they all purchased a Football Team in England..!

I wonder... If we did all stand behind the guys at Aces, could we form a sort of public ownership coop and actually raise the money and purchase the franchise from MS? Would they be willing to sell the code? If they have a copy of the code and we had a copy of the code 'owned outright' to do with what we all wanted, we could convert it to OpenGL, we could make a Mac version, the sky would be the limit and no bean counters could interject and screw everything up....!



hmm...



Bill

P-12C
January 24th, 2009, 22:23
We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

tigisfat
January 24th, 2009, 22:52
I like the SOH idea of setting up a private forum for any ACES team or staff members to use - seems to me a helpful way for some folks to 'decompress' as well as to stay in touch with each other and maybe network on new job possibilities.

...sure would like to be a fly on the wall though...


too bad about TS2 - I guess some other developer is going to have to try to come up with something on that front.

stupid ignorant M$


I'm sure they'er too smart to "decompress" here in certain stretches of the term. Nearly everything we'd think they would discuss is confidential.:monkies:

Francois
January 24th, 2009, 23:28
We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

Which is exactly what I'd expect them to say !
Hi Paul !!! Hope you got my email !? :wave:

empeck
January 25th, 2009, 01:16
I saw an interesting program tonight.. This guy was part of a group. They all sent in $75.00 dollars (actually 35,00 Pounds Sterling) and they all purchased a Football Team in England..!


It happens from time to time, when Not a Number, a company behind Blender was closed they sold Blender IP, source code to community for 100000 Euro, the money was collected by members of community. Now Blender is Open Source, and it's getting better with every release.

Paul - best wishes for you guys, too bad Microsoft didn't want to sell you the IP.

Lionheart
January 25th, 2009, 01:20
We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.


darn...


What if you got a huge gaming firm to carry it and make a offer with 'huge figures'? like Obi-Soft...?



Bill

EDIT: You probably already did.. arrgh.

EDIT 2: Well.. If you guys are motivated enough, you could darn well create a new sim game engine, and being that its fresh from scratch, it might be a neater, cleaner running, more efficient sim engine. This might turn into a blessing. No bean counters from MS telling you when to launch, how many to hire, etc.... Just focus on the game engine and have fun!



Bill

Francois
January 25th, 2009, 01:44
From going through the recent (gaming) industry news many of the HUGE gaming companies are in trouble themselves (Ubisoft, EA et other). So I don't think they'll even want FS, especially since it is tiny in comparison to the shoot-em-ups, run-em-downs and hop-em-overs that people play on consoles. (And yes, I play racing games and Brothers in Arms and many of those things myself... but it is just not the same league).

CBris
January 25th, 2009, 04:03
So as much as we think otherwise, we FS Simmers are a minority group...

In that sense you have to understand Microsoft. Oh well, such is business.

extrudinator
January 25th, 2009, 05:49
If Microsoft actually fired all of the people they will need to build the new metaverse, then Steve Ballmer missed shooting himself in the foot and actually hit his own head. Google can hire them all and Microsoft will fall away like the old Roman Empire.

crashaz
January 25th, 2009, 07:05
We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.


Damn... well that answered my question. I know a guy who has that kind of money. Right now he is negotiations to buy an oil refinery if he wanted.. merely has to snap his fingers.

However if MS wont sell I guess we just have to wait for the inevitable:

FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.

I know those are the guys running the Entertainment Division. So when the news broke about this so called annual conference was held.. and they had to decide where to make cuts... they thought... lets get rid of the PC gaming guys once and for all... we will get rid of the flagship.

I was a Microsoft loyal customer because of the goodwill of Flight Simulator and team...now that goodwill is gone. They just shut the doors to the whole shop.. no apologies, no explanation.

I am going to be making it my mission to go into every business opportunity and push MS CRM out the door... if I have to lower my profits... so be it... Saleslogix in.... MSCRM out.

Thanks for filling us in Paul. :wavey:

Glad you guys asked.

Bjoern
January 25th, 2009, 07:22
Hi guys,

as for the TS2 release date, now obsolete, see http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

I don't think it was in Beta yet but pretty far advanced. Can you imagine putting all that creative energy into a huge project like this and then someone from upstairs tells you and your colleagues to clear your desk within 24 hours, and don't forget to switch off the lights...

So they pulled a Fallout 3/Command & Conquer:Tiberium on TS2? Ouch!




What if you got a huge gaming firm to carry it and make a offer with 'huge figures'? like Obi-Soft...?

Please, for the love of the big guy, no! Neither Ubisoft nor EA nor THQ are fit and worthy to have a serious flight simulator in their portfolio.

Either find a small, independent publisher (Stardock?), found a new one or can FS for good.

But I won't accept any DRM terror from the big players in the game business anymore!
(Although Ubisoft has somehow seen the light and published two or three recent games without any DRM at all...)

bkeske
January 25th, 2009, 08:14
FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.



Neither would I, or most any serious flight simmer.

I do believe this transformation would have happened eventually, and we would be exactly where we are now. It just happened more unexpectedly than if it were announced ahead of time.

IMO, PC simulation's are becoming increasingly more rare, and because of that, may be hard to justify the amount of cash MS was capable of throwing at it.

...but....if X-Plane has had some success, perhaps there is hope, as I truly believe the real stars of the 'flight sim world' are, or have been, associated with the Sub-Logic/MS/Fly products. We have some of the best of the best within the MS based community, I hope they continue on, and perhaps our supersede our expectations. They always seem to.

crashaz
January 25th, 2009, 08:26
How much would it cost to start from the ground up? Made a phone call and let them know that FS is not for sale.

Now they want to know how long it would take to write from the ground up?

I figure 3 years at a cost of $8-10 million a year. Which is much less then what they would purchase an oil refinery for.

I did look up last night that in 2007 FSX sold 280K copies... @ $50/copy that is $14 million.

I did not give them that figure though. Wanted to ask what the former ACES team thought. These guys I talked to would not go without key members of the team.

Drop me a PM if you don't want to discuss publically guys.

empeck
January 25th, 2009, 08:27
It's interesting, what is going on in the simming world. Big studios doesn't make sims anymore. After Ubisoft published Il2 and LockOn, they don't have even one simulation title in their portfolio (well, they may be the Storm of War: Battle of Britain publisher, but official SoW forums are hosted at 1C, not at Ubi).

All upcoming flight sims, maybe except SoW are being made by small groups of hobbyists. I think we can't count on big publishers anymore.

P-12C
January 25th, 2009, 12:13
I can feel the anger, and I'm sure the anger will increase before it decreases.

They are declining to sell the IP because I honestly believe they want to bring it back... later. The problem would be that it gets more and more difficult to bring it back as it is today (albeit with improvements) the longer time marches on without the knowledge in the team members heads the harder it will be to bring back.

Maybe it will be reinvented with new stuff, which might require new ideas, or maybe it won't.

I do believe there is hope, but it will likely be a long road and may not look quite the same.

I do still technically work at Microsoft, and I intend to find a position at Microsoft, so I certainly won't slam the company overall. The decisions they are making may actually end up with all of us in a better situation down the road.


Damn... well that answered my question. I know a guy who has that kind of money. Right now he is negotiations to buy an oil refinery if he wanted.. merely has to snap his fingers.

However if MS wont sell I guess we just have to wait for the inevitable:

FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.

I know those are the guys running the Entertainment Division. So when the news broke about this so called annual conference was held.. and they had to decide where to make cuts... they thought... lets get rid of the PC gaming guys once and for all... we will get rid of the flagship.

I was a Microsoft loyal customer because of the goodwill of Flight Simulator and team...now that goodwill is gone. They just shut the doors to the whole shop.. no apologies, no explanation.

I am going to be making it my mission to go into every business opportunity and push MS CRM out the door... if I have to lower my profits... so be it... Saleslogix in.... MSCRM out.

Thanks for filling us in Paul. :wavey:

Glad you guys asked.

rhumbaflappy
January 25th, 2009, 12:30
Thanks for the clarification Paul.

I understand 6 team mambers are keft to settle outstanding contracts, and archive the data and code. Hopefully these guys will do a great job. If the FS series gets resurrected, that code, and whoever can come back to the new team, will be the only links to the FS past.

Good luck Paul! Hope you get the new job.

Dick

Lionheart
January 25th, 2009, 12:57
If Microsoft actually fired all of the people they will need to build the new metaverse, then Steve Ballmer missed shooting himself in the foot and actually hit his own head. Google can hire them all and Microsoft will fall away like the old Roman Empire.

LOL...

That would be a bit funny. Google taking over MS.



Back to the topic.. I believe it is the people that make a company, not the machines, and in this case, the code. The code is all upstairs, in the 'noggin'. A new code could be born, a better, cleaner code. And a firm could be created, a new studio, that would not be controlled by the suits..

Then, that 14million would go into the 'New World' Studio and not the mistaken antics of suit-world..

And.. If other studios like Obi-Soft isnt interested, that too could be an incredible blessing.. Remember, all these guys that started Apple, MS, and alot of these game studios, they started up in garages, holes in the wall, small biz suites... They lived on snacks and Mountain Dew for a year or two.. Look at them now, millionaires.. You might have to starve, but what you sew, you reap; what you invest, you will get back... What you put into your own work, the investment, will yeild it back to you many fold..




Bill

Gibbage
January 25th, 2009, 13:16
Either outsource development to a competent team or assemble a new one including some of the old dogs from ACES.


Sorry. I take this comment a little personally. I have never seen a more competent team ever in my life. A LOT of the people there had there pilots license and 10-25 years of experience. I dont know how more competent you could get for a flight sim team.

bkeske
January 25th, 2009, 13:16
With the advent and popularity of X-Box (and such), and the demise of PC 'Gaming'/simulations, I have to wonder if companies that have a stake in PC simulations surviving would be interested in underwriting (or helping) a new endeavor.

If you think about what companies may have an interest, obviously NVIDIA and AMD/ATI come to mind. Intel?

Just a thought.

cheezyflier
January 25th, 2009, 13:47
the reason pc can't compete with the gaming console is because the console only runs the game, and nothing else. naturally, you get better performance, and the initial cost is waaayy less for the consumer. the result was inevitable.

crashaz
January 25th, 2009, 13:59
How in the world does one find people that know how to make a flight simulator??

Sure a lot of us here know how to make models and scenery etc..... but how many people how to code physics? Code flight parameters, code weather realtime? Code reading Geographic information and create a rendered world.

Who knows how to code eye catching renders,shaders and light?!?

I am not worried about the code. It's the resources.... the people.... they have all been thrown to the winds! It would be at least 2 years (at the earliest) before someone goes shakes off the dust to think about opening the crate up... how long would it take to gather a group of people with that much experience??

Then the eventual coding may start... another 2 years down the road...

folks we may not see FS again for another 6-7 years.

Now to those of you saying that this may not be a bad thing.... why don't you open up your copy of FS2000 and fly with that.... see how you like it now.

That is what FSX will look like before we get another.

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
January 25th, 2009, 14:26
"That would be a bit funny. Google taking over MS."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Google taking the time to develop a flight sim ..., they did ...and it’s part of Google earth ,, 3D scenery .... they did and released a free and easy to use tool to produce it , the Google earth Flight Simulation module is an XML ,, so what’s missing are aircraft models, and the flight dynamics , the photo real scenery aint half bad , it’s what i get from Tile Proxy.. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Funny is that MS did not find room in their Windows Live Xbox platform for the talent the just gave the competing companies .<o:p></o:p>
Funny is that i do not need to upgrade my machine to keep up with the demands made upon it by a new sim every couple of years , i am going to save a small fortune not needing to worry about DX11 , Windows7 , yada yada yada , hell i can even try a Mac laptop next as compatibility isn’t an issue and forget about desktop computers all together since what i need to by is a console , and Wii even think about an Xbox ? the company that makes them sent them out with major problems because it was cheaper to repair the 2% of them that come back than add a bloody part to the production run ... " aligned against the companies priorities " that’s what they did all right, to the consumer base ... gobble gobble <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

fliger747
January 25th, 2009, 14:54
The primary advantage of the MS series for the enthuisast is/was the ability to produce addons. Such is why in many ways CFS2 is still a fine sim!

Other platforms have attempted to keep everything close to the vest. It's an attitude, which in hardware that has kept me away from Apple.

$14,000,000 in sales for FSX? There are guys on campus there (rarefied air) that probably get a bonus bigger than that.

Cheers: T.

harleyman
January 25th, 2009, 15:02
Well I still think that our beloved FSX and FS9,and older ones ,are going to be just fine for quite a while...


However...... I really wanted TS2 darn it...........:banghead:

bismarck13
January 25th, 2009, 15:30
$14,000,000 in sales for FSX? There are guys on campus there (rarefied air) that probably get a bonus bigger than that.

Well, that explains it completely. Considering that Halo 3 sold $300 Million in its first week, I would have to rate FSX as a dismal failure. If I was M$ I would pull the plug on it too. Consoles are where its at now. And despite what you all will say, the small number of diehard FSers at this site (and elsewhere) is really not that attractive to big outfits like Ubi-screwed and Microshaft. The biggest selling PC games on the market now are generally also console games. I looked for a new PC game for my nephew at Xmas and was surprised by the small number of titles to choose from, and there was nothing at all that would have interested me. I think the PC game industry in general is headed right down the tubes and "Aces" is just one of the casualties.

:kilroy:

CathyH
January 25th, 2009, 21:06
VSF a vehicle simulator by The Author of Virtual Sailor is acvailable for beta download from hangsim.com. It feature palens, ships, and spaceshiop, the4r will be lots of reqasonable hobbyist freewae and paywae addons and combat mode. Not as good as FS, but with tht, FS9 ansd FSX I think we can manage, then ther4 is X-plane and that open source Flightsin (flightgera?):amen:

Nick C
January 25th, 2009, 23:43
Paul, this comment niggles me:


It will likely be a long road and may not look quite the same.

Sorry to start picking at comments.

Ridge
January 26th, 2009, 01:00
Sorry. I take this comment a little personally. I have never seen a more competent team ever in my life. A LOT of the people there had there pilots license and 10-25 years of experience. I dont know how more competent you could get for a flight sim team.

I thought the same at first, Gibbage...I dont think he is saying Aces is/was incompetent, just not to give the work to a 3rd party group that is incompetent...

Bjoern
January 26th, 2009, 02:51
Sorry. I take this comment a little personally. I have never seen a more competent team ever in my life. A LOT of the people there had there pilots license and 10-25 years of experience. I dont know how more competent you could get for a flight sim team.

It wasn't meant to be a hit at ACES.

That section of my quoted comment was referring to a post someone made, in which he expressed the fear that MSFS development could be outsourced to a development team in the eastern hemisphere.
I for myself think that none of the young, startup deveopment teams in that part of the earth can cope with developing a flight simulator. I'm not all against new blood in the industry, but without mentors like the guys and gals from ACES, they won't go far. Sure, they could try, but the expectations for a new civil flightsimulator are high...very high. Especially if Microsoft is the publisher...

Francois
January 26th, 2009, 02:53
Sorry. I take this comment a little personally. I have never seen a more competent team ever in my life. A LOT of the people there had there pilots license and 10-25 years of experience. I dont know how more competent you could get for a flight sim team.

I agree, Gibbage. That remark was uncalled for, unjust, rude and above all: factual incorrect.

harleyman
January 26th, 2009, 03:46
I agree, Gibbage. That remark was uncalled for, unjust, rude and above all: factual incorrect.


It does read a little funny......

I do not believe that he was meaning that the past ACES team was incompontent at all..That if it were to be outsorced ,to please do it with a compontent team as ACES was...

I believe he understands the point behind these threads is to let the ACES members know that they are in our thoughts and we are thanking them for all the wonderful work they have put into this and other simes....:applause:

Correct me if I'm wrong please Bjoern..

CBris
January 26th, 2009, 04:44
I did look up last night that in 2007 FSX sold 280K copies... @ $50/copy that is $14 million.



Hmmm
<hr style="color: rgb(64, 64, 80); background-color: rgb(64, 64, 80);" size="1"> Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset ;" class="alt2"> $14,000,000 in sales for FSX? There are guys on campus there (rarefied air) that probably get a bonus bigger than that. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Well, that explains it completely. Considering that Halo 3 sold $300 Million in its first week, I would have to rate FSX as a dismal failure. If I was M$ I would pull the plug on it too. Consoles are where its at now. And despite what you all will say, the small number of diehard FSers at this site (and elsewhere) is really not that attractive to big outfits like...
:kilroy:

There is a wonderful saying in German, and I am pretty sure the sentiments count in any language:

"Kleinvieh macht auch Mist"

A suitable Anglic translation would be "Even small animals make manure"


(This next bit can be ignored as [rant] )To jettison ANY department that makes money is about as sensible as... hmmm... I can't think of anything nonsensical to compare MS with here

If FS made a plus, then axing it is stupid. And wailing about shareholder pressure even more so. It's as ridiculous as listening to reports of "Reduced Profits" on the news. Even "Reduced Profits" are still profits.

Anyway... [/rant off]


:engel016: :whistle: :wave:

I am still looking forward to enjoying what life FSX will have for the next year or ten. Nothing has really changed for this "Bunch of grumpy old men", we're still able to sim and spend our money on some great addons, even in the coming years.

The more I look at it, the more I see a bright sim future.

SkippyBing
January 26th, 2009, 07:00
To jettison ANY department that makes money is about as sensible as... hmmm... I can't think of anything nonsensical to compare MS with here

That's taking a very blinkered view.
As an example lets say ACES and whoever developed Halo 3 were both costing the same in R&D, wages etc. etc. Would it make more sense to continue funding both when one is making several orders of magnitude more than the other, or close down the under performing department to free up resources for the better performing one?
The figures we should be comparing are return on investment, which would probably be a lot harder to come by.
As for reduced profit still being profit, it is true, but if the management aren't seen to be doing anything to reverse the reduction in that trend would you still invest in that company. To put it another way, if your bank said that this year the interest on your savings is being reduced from 5% to 2% would you say, 'well I'm getting reduced return on my money, but it's still a return', or look for a better bank?

SDFlyer
January 26th, 2009, 08:45
What of this (http://pc.ign.com/articles/947/947737p1.html) from the PR department of MS? Just a ploy to keep us thinking and buying MS? Seems to me more like a :173go1:

Mark

Bjoern
January 26th, 2009, 09:01
That if it were to be outsorced ,to please do it with a compontent team as ACES was...

Spot-on, Mason!


If anyone cares: Thread at SimHQ (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2658143/STICKY_MS_Lays_off_ACES_staff.html#Post2658143)
You will notice the odd few thoughts and fears about outsourcing, which directly influenced my reply.


I hope it's clear enough now.

Lionheart
January 26th, 2009, 09:09
I think this is a good reason to see why huge corporations like MS do not always see how a gaming studio see's.

You have to know what the people want, and I think brass at mega-corporations become unable to see what the common public see's. If they are calling the shots, its like taking orders on driving directions from people that are blind.

A studio should have the ability to make its own decisions to a major degree when concerning its product lines.

With MS, they restricted the work force at Aces, kept their budgets extremely low, and launched FSX too soon. MS did this, not Aces. If I were at MS, I would have had a small army of devs in there working on FS.

The more I think about it, with the vista (cough cough) fiasco, the CEO saying how it was such a succesful (cough) product, they shouldnt be laying off the employees at MS. They were all being told what to do. I say lay off the brass.. Put them on the street for making dumb decisions, not the army they commanded. Get some people in there that have common sense, that have eyes and can see, ears and can hear...


Just more of my two cents.. (all these two cents.. where do they come from? ;) ).


Bill

SkippyBing
January 26th, 2009, 09:21
What of this (http://pc.ign.com/articles/947/947737p1.html) from the PR department of MS? Just a ploy to keep us thinking and buying MS? Seems to me more like a :173go1:

I think at this stage anything the MS PR department puts out is standard 'we closed that department but are keeping the option of opening it sometime in the future if we want to'. I honestly don't think MS have thought as deeply about this as people on the FS forums think they have.
It was a pure business decision, they think the money that would have been spent on ACES could be more profitable somewhere else. They didn't think 'flight simulation is a market that leads to sales of OS and hardware with a thriving 3rd party community which we want to come back to at some point but in the short term we're going to sacrifice to improve profitability', heck I wouldn't be surprised if the person who made the decision didn't even know what ACES did.
As I think we've covered somewhere else on here, flight simulation isn't as big a market as we like to think, sure there're plenty of web forums, magazines, add-on developers etc. but I think that indicates an enthusiastic market rather than a big one and MS only get the sales of FS out of it so ultimately that's all they're going to take into consideration.

wombat666
January 26th, 2009, 10:23
That's taking a very blinkered view.
As an example lets say ACES and whoever developed Halo 3 were both costing the same in R&D, wages etc. etc. Would it make more sense to continue funding both when one is making several orders of magnitude more than the other, or close down the under performing department to free up resources for the better performing one?
The figures we should be comparing are return on investment, which would probably be a lot harder to come by.


Under performing is not really an accurate description, under selling might be closer compared to the sales of all of the 'Blood and Guts' games ( an oxymoron indeed!) that seem to be so popular.
Another 2c worth.
:kilroy:

MM
January 26th, 2009, 10:32
With regard to the discussion on Microsoft's maximizing profitability, here is a great line from the SimHQ forum discussion (Bjoern's link), by No601_Swallow:

After all, what are computers for if not for simulating things? Surely not spreadsheets?!!

SkippyBing
January 26th, 2009, 10:59
Wombat, you're right probably a better description, although from an accountants point of view looking at input and output it probably looks like the same thing.

Snuffy
January 26th, 2009, 11:30
Under performing is not really an accurate description, under selling might be closer compared to the sales of all of the 'Blood and Guts' games ( an oxymoron indeed!) that seem to be so popular.
Another 2c worth.
:kilroy:

This is also a viable argument for an ongoing combat flight sim. The human race is a blood thristy bunch ...

PhilTaylor
January 26th, 2009, 14:39
That's taking a very blinkered view.
As an example lets say ACES and whoever developed Halo 3 were both costing the same in R&D, wages etc. etc. Would it make more sense to continue funding both when one is making several orders of magnitude more than the other, or close down the under performing department to free up resources for the better performing one?
The figures we should be comparing are return on investment, which would probably be a lot harder to come by.
As for reduced profit still being profit, it is true, but if the management aren't seen to be doing anything to reverse the reduction in that trend would you still invest in that company. To put it another way, if your bank said that this year the interest on your savings is being reduced from 5% to 2% would you say, 'well I'm getting reduced return on my money, but it's still a return', or look for a better bank?

I cover some of my thinking around what I know about this decision and what influenced it at a new post at:
http://www.futuregpu.org.

I will post again as I learn more.

harleyman
January 26th, 2009, 14:53
Thank you Phil...A very intresting read.......

And to hear a final about TS2 is disheartning at best....:help:

jdhaenens
January 26th, 2009, 15:11
...so, I don't know how they count severance, if any, but let's say that that's amortized over the next three months...this still doesn't have any effect (other than publicity) for next quarters' advice cycle. Meanwhile, FSX is still selling without the headcount to charge off against it after the cycle, and the code is getting older and older.

All because they stubbornly refuse to be beaten by Apple (Zune vs IPOD) in Apple's own back yard. "Market weakness in the entertainment sector (Zune) was made up from MGS profits".

I can't even see that this makes any business sense at all. You've gotten closer to locking yourself into a high risk...mediocre reward scenario with the Zune platform, but killed off a proven quantity.

Don't get me wrong, you can still sell FSX for another couple, maybe 3 years without the headcount, but the chances of being able to recover an improved successor are practically nill. I don't think I will have switched to served games by then.

FSX has way too many online multiplayer options for Live to catch on, and I'll bet within the next year, there will be an FS Host that will handle all the FSX specific connections.

Things that make you go ...Hmmmmm.

srgalahad
January 26th, 2009, 15:13
Is he pointing to the door, or just not sure which finger to use?

http://www.videogaming247.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ballmer1b.jpg

heywooood
January 26th, 2009, 15:34
I cover some of my thinking around what I know about this decision and what influenced it at a new post at:
http://www.futuregpu.org.

I will post again as I learn more.


Thanks for the insight Phil...the TS2 news is a downer - as a footnote to all those people being let go at once that is.

The company I work for was just bought out last month and now the auditors are flying around like wasps - sure hope I dont get stung by 'em.

I think we will all be tested before this particular piece of history is behind us.

Ridge
January 26th, 2009, 15:34
Looks to me like he is poppin a cap in the butt of Aces...

Lionheart
January 26th, 2009, 15:41
Is he pointing to the door, or just not sure which finger to use?

http://www.videogaming247.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ballmer1b.jpg

lolol....


um...... Where are his eyebrows??

rhumbaflappy
January 26th, 2009, 16:16
I did look up last night that in 2007 FSX sold 280K copies... @ $50/copy that is $14 million.

I did not give them that figure though. Wanted to ask what the former ACES team thought. These guys I talked to would not go without key members of the team.

I think Phil Taylor mentions over 1 million sold worldwide... but I don't know if this includes what's sitting on store shelves.

Dick

Snaker
January 26th, 2009, 17:24
I cover some of my thinking around what I know about this decision and what influenced it at a new post at:
http://www.futuregpu.org.

I will post again as I learn more.


Thanks for the link to your blog - it is interesting to see your take on things.

:ernae:

JT8D-9A
January 26th, 2009, 22:31
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/160224.asp

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/01/23/what-the-heck-was-microsoft-thinking/

http://venturebeat.com/2009/01/24/microsofts-chris-early-head-of-games-for-windows-live-among-the-layoffs/

:isadizzy:

SolarEagle
January 26th, 2009, 22:51
Financed how??
Employees who find themselves suddenly unemployed need to find a job that will pay for the neccessities of 'real' life.
:173go1:

I guess it comes down to two things:

1) Leadership
2) Capital

The second one is usually given to the first. One hundred plus unemployed flight sim developers standing under the sky is no ordinary moment.

kjb
February 3rd, 2009, 17:25
So, I'm kicking back and doing a little mindless browsing and wander over to the FS Insider site. I click on the About the Aces (http://www.fsinsider.com/news/Pages/AMessageFromAces.aspx) link. The few paragraphs can't avoid the buzz words like "synergy" and "strategic priorities". Ugh!!!

I'm not a billion dollar business owner, but if it was my decision I would keep divisions that are profitable instead of scrapping them. If I was going to do some pruning, it would be elsewhere.

They plan to push "innovation, community, and collaboration to unprecedented levels"...HUH? Racing sims, fighter sims etc might do that with teams, squadrons and an ongoing campaign or season, but not a flight simulator. I think that someone needs to put down their granola, grab a cup of black coffee and look at promoting the profitable parts instead of trying to force something that doesn't exist and probably won't sell no matter how much cash they pour into it.

crashaz
February 3rd, 2009, 17:51
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/microsoft_flight_simulator_partners/

noshadez
February 3rd, 2009, 18:23
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/microsoft_flight_simulator_partners/
Cool crashaz..Fs11 was to come with skydiving acording to the report?..I think we can go with FSX for quite a while without FS11 ..The mission tool in it can do just about everything in a lot of ways--including skydiving..easy chng object/chng object to chng object..as here in my aussie bigfoot hunter skydiver..I will get all these (out of envelope) missions wrapped up soon now all we have is FSX for an indefinite while..It might be a good thing to only have FSX for a long while..FSX is as good as it can get for what price PC it takes to run it good for now--and a (Long) while from now..I would just of liked to see TS2 get finished though..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgpri9BZfCo&feature=channel_page

wombat666
February 4th, 2009, 01:46
One hundred plus unemployed flight sim developers standing under the sky is no ordinary moment.

Certainly not for the unfortunate individuals who have just become 'redundant'.
However, it is the same for three thousand BHP employees in the same situation, or for the One Hundred Thousand +/- unfortunates who have met the same fate in under a week.
'G-L-O-B-A-L R-E-C-E-S-S-I-O-N' ................ and it is getting worse as each day passes.
:kilroy:

stiz
February 4th, 2009, 03:25
and it is getting worse as each day passes

unless your a Bailiff :kilroy:

Daube
February 4th, 2009, 05:17
Planned features included voice recognition with air traffic control, first-person mode, a full fledged career mode with a job board and a currency system, a lighter-then-air aircraft class, and skydiving.

Ouch. Now I'm starting to miss FS11. The first-person mode was asked by a lot of FS enthusiasts since long ago (walking around and inside the plane juste like in Operation Flashpoint for example). And this voice recognition with ATC just sounds cool... :faint:

empeck
February 4th, 2009, 06:11
'lighter-then-air aircraft class' :(

Lionheart
February 4th, 2009, 12:04
So, I'm kicking back and doing a little mindless browsing and wander over to the FS Insider site. I click on the About the Aces (http://www.fsinsider.com/news/Pages/AMessageFromAces.aspx) link. The few paragraphs can't avoid the buzz words like "synergy" and "strategic priorities". Ugh!!!

I'm not a billion dollar business owner, but if it was my decision I would keep divisions that are profitable instead of scrapping them. If I was going to do some pruning, it would be elsewhere.

They plan to push "innovation, community, and collaboration to unprecedented levels"...HUH? Racing sims, fighter sims etc might do that with teams, squadrons and an ongoing campaign or season, but not a flight simulator. I think that someone needs to put down their granola, grab a cup of black coffee and look at promoting the profitable parts instead of trying to force something that doesn't exist and probably won't sell no matter how much cash they pour into it.



I think MS has lost its abitlity to manage its own company. My humble 2 cents..

<-- puts on safety goggles incase someone throws cabbage

CodyValkyrie
February 4th, 2009, 12:07
Oh Bill, I think they can manage it just fine... hence the firing of 5,000 employees. If they couldn't manage it, they would run it right into the ground ;)

Bjoern
February 4th, 2009, 12:17
Maybe they just did a "Windows 7" on the whole company?
Leaner, better, more successful...?

SkippyBing
February 4th, 2009, 12:48
They need to ditch Balmer, he's almost a legacy now and his inability to 'get' emerging technology and fields or change direction is doing MS no favours.

IanP
February 4th, 2009, 12:51
But Zune and LIVE have been such a success so far that they can't fail to... fall flat on their face even more! :173go1:

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
February 4th, 2009, 13:07
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width="50%"><TABLE id=Table3 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytext vAlign=top>Job Title: Art Management</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table5 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytext vAlign=top>Job Category: Game Design</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table7 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytext vAlign=top>Product: Games</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table8 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytext vAlign=top>Date Posted: 01/30/2009</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 rowSpan=5>http://members.microsoft.com/careers/images/spacer.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left width="50%"><TABLE id=Table2 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytextnopadding vAlign=top>Job Code: 252532</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytextnopadding vAlign=top>Location: WA - Redmond</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table9 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytextnopadding vAlign=top>Travel Required: </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=Table10 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodytextnopadding vAlign=top></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=3 height=2>http://members.microsoft.com/careers/images/spacer.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD class=bodytext align=left colSpan=3>
*To consider similar job openings on MS Careers, use keyword: GAMES

Join the team responsible for building the most fun and rewarding flying experiences available on Games for Windows Live. Does working on a small, innovative team that delivers the most immersive flight experiences available today on the PC intrigue you? Our technology makes available entire continents - potentially the entire planet - for a detailed and dynamic 3D experience. We are looking for a Project Art Lead who can define, refine, and extend the visual elements while balancing the need for fun and approachability for a broad set of users.
RESPONSIBILITIES:

Demonstrate and clearly communicate expectations for quality of work, creativity, originality and professionalism to the art team.
Provide strong leadership for the art team and provide guidance for overall career development.
Establish a regular art review schedule internally within the team.
Ensure that all required art positions are staffed with excellent, qualified persons.
Manage both internal and external resources
Consult on a regular basis with the Project Design Lead and Project Developer Lead to set and adjust appropriate art production milestones.
Drive development and documentation for art processes and tools.
Work to thoroughly understand our customers and provide guidance to the team that will allow them to build assets that support our customer’s desires.
Locate and establish solid working relationships with outsource vendors.

QUALIFICATIONS:

5+ years experience as an Art Lead across multiple shipped titles
Demonstrated ability to successfully lead a team through the complete product development cycle
An in-depth knowledge of game development software and techniques (e.g. Max, Photoshop)
Experience in creating and managing all processes of artwork creation for triple-A titles
An eye for detail and style, as demonstrated by a top-rate portfolio
Excellent verbal and written communication skills
Experience dealing with outsource vendors

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



I kinda wonder sometimes who is in charge, or is anybody actually in charge , can't wait for the next announcement , thanks to Bill Leaming for bringing this to our attention

Prowler1111
February 4th, 2009, 13:26
..If they are considering migrating Flight Simulator into LIVE..well, those still in dual up or crappy internet connections will be left without choices....
I guess they are going that way in order to fight piracy?
Prowler

stiz
February 4th, 2009, 13:29
so like all the other games which require online activation ... which have all been cracked anyway so theres no point in 'protection' really if you think about it :kilroy:

jsolomon
February 4th, 2009, 15:25
An idea...

Some Aces developers move to id software and develop an amazing combat/simple civilian flight sim using id Tech 5, which is cross platform in development. Since id has seriously entertained the idea of eventually releasing Tech 5 as opensource, the studio appeals for a degree of investment and an advertising campaign with Ubuntu. Tech 5 is expanded along with a Linux games/opengl market. The result would be quite a feather in Mark Shuttleworth's cap.

MCDesigns
February 4th, 2009, 15:50
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top" width="50%"><table id="Table3" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytext" valign="top">Job Title: Art Management</td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table5" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytext" valign="top">Job Category: Game Design</td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table7" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytext" valign="top">Product: Games</td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table8" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytext" valign="top">Date Posted: 01/30/2009</td></tr></tbody></table></td><td rowspan="5" valign="top" width="5">http://members.microsoft.com/careers/images/spacer.gif</td><td align="left" valign="top" width="50%"><table id="Table2" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytextnopadding" valign="top">Job Code: 252532</td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytextnopadding" valign="top">Location: WA - Redmond</td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table9" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytextnopadding" valign="top">Travel Required: </td></tr></tbody></table><table id="Table10" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="bodytextnopadding" valign="top">
</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" height="2" valign="top">http://members.microsoft.com/careers/images/spacer.gif</td></tr><tr><td class="bodytext" colspan="3" align="left">
*To consider similar job openings on MS Careers, use keyword: GAMES

Join the team responsible for building the most fun and rewarding flying experiences available on Games for Windows Live. Does working on a small, innovative team that delivers the most immersive flight experiences available today on the PC intrigue you? Our technology makes available entire continents - potentially the entire planet - for a detailed and dynamic 3D experience. We are looking for a Project Art Lead who can define, refine, and extend the visual elements while balancing the need for fun and approachability for a broad set of users.
RESPONSIBILITIES:

Demonstrate and clearly communicate expectations for quality of work, creativity, originality and professionalism to the art team.
Provide strong leadership for the art team and provide guidance for overall career development.
Establish a regular art review schedule internally within the team.
Ensure that all required art positions are staffed with excellent, qualified persons.
Manage both internal and external resources
Consult on a regular basis with the Project Design Lead and Project Developer Lead to set and adjust appropriate art production milestones.
Drive development and documentation for art processes and tools.
Work to thoroughly understand our customers and provide guidance to the team that will allow them to build assets that support our customer’s desires.
Locate and establish solid working relationships with outsource vendors.

QUALIFICATIONS:

5+ years experience as an Art Lead across multiple shipped titles
Demonstrated ability to successfully lead a team through the complete product development cycle
An in-depth knowledge of game development software and techniques (e.g. Max, Photoshop)
Experience in creating and managing all processes of artwork creation for triple-A titles
An eye for detail and style, as demonstrated by a top-rate portfolio
Excellent verbal and written communication skills
Experience dealing with outsource vendors

</td></tr></tbody></table>



I kinda wonder sometimes who is in charge, or is anybody actually in charge , can't wait for the next announcement , thanks to Bill Leaming for bringing this to our attention

Is this true?? They just let many talented people go and are looking for replacements? Someone at MS needs to pull their head out of their :censored: !!!!!

Major_Spittle
February 4th, 2009, 15:51
I know I will get flamed for mentioning the unmentionable, but...........

Perhaps Aces needed to be scrapped and rebuilt and now was deemed the right time with the recession and the talent pool that will likely be available?

I for one did not feel FSX was cutting edge for flight modeling with the hardware available at release, and don't get me started with the bloated overhead with the coding that made the latest greatest computers of the day run it at 4 FPS if you wanted any trees, buildings, or textures.

Sorry, but 150 people * ~$100,000 / year = a lot. This smells of a house cleaning, and could be a blessing in the long run. I for one feel MSFS was lacking innovation with the last release and needed to go a new direction.

This is not to say Aces wasn't filled with great people who knew their sheet, but perhaps it wasn't a great TEAM of people. Wow, I'm really gonna pay for typing this. :typing:

n4gix
February 4th, 2009, 16:03
Is this true?? They just let many talented people go and are looking for replacements? Someone at MS needs to pull their head out of their :censored: !!!!!

Keep in mind that (nearly) every former ACES employee have "first dibs" on securing an interview for whatever positions open... :whistle:

Bjoern
February 4th, 2009, 17:13
They need to ditch Balmer, he's almost a legacy now and his inability to 'get' emerging technology and fields or change direction is doing MS no favours.

They can't, because he invented the

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/Internet/2922438953_af290741f7.jpg


:costumes:

Lionheart
February 4th, 2009, 17:33
They can't, because he invented the

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/Internet/2922438953_af290741f7.jpg


:costumes:



Bjoern,

Where... I ask you... are that mans eyebrows!!!


That is a sign man....

:kilroy:

SolarEagle
February 4th, 2009, 20:55
I guess it's out with the old and in with the new. Perhaps using the old team to build an Xbox title to port to the PC wouldn't be a good idea. :whistle:

extrudinator
February 5th, 2009, 02:03
Here are more thoughts on what a stupid decision by Microsoft this was.

http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2009/02/03/crossing-the-chasm-microsoft-cedes-world-sim-to-google/

stiz
February 5th, 2009, 03:59
Sorry, but 150 people * ~$100,000 / year = a lot. This smells of a house cleaning

well if thats the case then why didnt they get rid of the zune team?? it obvious their not gonna make any money competeing against the Ipod :kilroy:

quicki comparison:

Zune - 120GB, 30 hours music playback, 4 hours video playback, Ģ171 (at current $ to Ģ conversion, allthough if it ever does come out over here MS would prolly charge Ģ249.99, ya know normanl trick of just changeing the $ to a Ģ ...)

ipod - 120GB, 36 hours music playback, 150 hours of video, Ģ175.00 - plus it looks better and is actually avialable outside the US!

It just makes no sense even trying to compete ... and as they've said, it actually lost money, so why the heck bother to keep it??

harleyman
February 5th, 2009, 04:29
Major Spittle....


This is not to say Aces wasn't filled with great people who knew their sheet, but perhaps it wasn't a great TEAM of people. Wow, I'm really gonna pay for typing this. :typing:



You are a braver man than me.......LOL :eek::horseshoe:
<!-- / message -->

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
February 5th, 2009, 04:45
P12-C has posted on his blogsite that he is at work again at "something"
he can't discuss


http://paul-flightsimguy.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!D282374D24B565FB!1246.entry

Major_Spittle
February 5th, 2009, 07:44
Major Spittle....


This is not to say Aces wasn't filled with great people who knew their sheet, but perhaps it wasn't a great TEAM of people. Wow, I'm really gonna pay for typing this. :typing:



You are a braver man than me.......LOL :eek::horseshoe:
<!-- / message -->

What I mean, and I have seen this first hand, is that you can have group of great programmers with great ideas but the team doesn't organize in a way that produces a great product. Be it lack of consensus or so many ideas and thoughts that it slows actual progress or causes too many changes during production.

I have no idea what the group was like, but I do have my thoughts on FS9 vs FSX. What was released was not the FSX that was advertised. Small upgrade in visuals at a great cost to computing overhead. No DX10, then just a DX10 " preview. A few bells and whistles. Advertised Scaleability for the future, which was little more than a promise that some day a home PC would be able to run the game.

Perhaps if the core group of Aces could regroup for a different developer and make something without MS's scheduling and atmosphere. I do feel they know what most people want in a FS and they care about the FS community.

harleyman
February 5th, 2009, 09:18
I'm with ya Major_Spittle on this........:friday:

Bjoern
February 5th, 2009, 10:16
Where... I ask you... are that mans eyebrows!!!

In eyebrow heaven? :d

MCDesigns
February 5th, 2009, 10:32
Interesting take on this Major_Spittle and I have my own take on it, but again, all this is pure speculation. As for what was released wasn't what was advertised, I don't see that. Other than a more living world, much of what was advertised to me I do see and use in FSX. Yes, DX10 functionality became a fluke, but I feel that has more to do with MS at large with lack of coordination of Vista more than with ACES. As for FSX being just a small upgrade in visuals, it is much more than that from what I have experienced. I think many just see it as that since they don't really go beyond what they see. To be completely honest, if FSX was just an upgrade from FS9 to give more performance headroom, better AI experience, better flight dynamics, better accusim type programming by default, better weather, etc without the increased autogen, higher res textures and features like bumpmapping, etc I would have probably stayed with FS9 as none of that interests me.


Perhaps if the core group of Aces could regroup for a different developer and make something without MS's scheduling and atmosphere. I do feel they know what most people want in a FS and they care about the FS community.

I do agree with this though. I feel that many of FSX's shortcomings are because of the company involvements in the product development and their budgets on resources and not due to what ACES did. I mean, who do you think can provide a better FS experience, developers that are pilots, or bean counters, LOL.

spotlope
February 5th, 2009, 10:53
I'll repeat this here because it made such an impression on me. A couple of years ago, Arno put on a presentation at the MS DevCon in which he did a slideshow comparing screenshots of the same stock scenery, taken from the same angle, in as many versions of FS as he could get to run. Visually, it was a real eye-opener... by far, I thought the biggest improvement in graphics in a single version was the jump from FS9 to FSX. There was incremental progress all along the timeline, of course, but FSX really stood out as an enormous imrovement over the others. I just can't agree that we only got a minor improvement in graphics... it was huge.

spotlope
February 5th, 2009, 10:59
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/Internet/2922438953_af290741f7.jpg

:costumes:

Separated at birth?

Lionheart
February 5th, 2009, 11:11
Separated at birth?

lolol....



:rapture:

Lionheart
February 5th, 2009, 11:16
Quote:Perhaps if the core group of Aces could regroup for a different developer and make something without MS's scheduling and atmosphere. I do feel they know what most people want in a FS and they care about the FS community.

I do agree with this though. I feel that many of FSX's shortcomings are because of the company involvements in the product development and their budgets on resources and not due to what ACES did. I mean, who do you think can provide a better FS experience, developers that are pilots, or bean counters, LOL.
__________________
Regards, Michael


I agree with this also.

I think if Aces had what they needed, alot of FS would be different.

Famous saying; 'A camel is a horse designed by a committee'.

A product needs vision. A visionary in a product line or company can, if given control and he is competent, can go amazingly far. For instance, Bill Gates. He took a small firm with a few people and with that, became one of the most successful people on Earth. If Aces had carte blanche in their 'needs' and direction (scheduling, parameters, core design, work group/team members/help), I think we would never had heard about frame rates, and other issues.

Vision, vision, vision.....


Bill

IanP
February 5th, 2009, 11:33
And, of course, an unlimited budget and guaranteed recouping of costs, which is where the "vision" falls over, because reality is that accountants have to run a commercial entity. Otherwise it ceases being a commercial entity, because it very quickly ceases being an entity altogether.

Warrant
February 5th, 2009, 11:35
I agree with this also.

I think if Aces had what they needed, alot of FS would be different.

Famous saying; 'A camel is a horse designed by a committee'.

A product needs vision. A visionary in a product line or company can, if given control and he is competent, can go amazingly far. For instance, Bill Gates. He took a small firm with a few people and with that, became one of the most successful people on Earth. If Aces had carte blanche in their 'needs' and direction (scheduling, parameters, core design, work group/team members/help), I think we would never had heard about frame rates, and other issues.

Vision, vision, vision.....


Bill


Well said, Bill :applause:

I totally second that!

Lionheart
February 5th, 2009, 14:10
Thanks Warrant.


And, of course, an unlimited budget and guaranteed recouping of costs, which is where the "vision" falls over, because reality is that accountants have to run a commercial entity. Otherwise it ceases being a commercial entity, because it very quickly ceases being an entity altogether.


Ian,

I see your point too. Business is business.

Here though is a classic example, talking of bean counters, product vision, and product line success in a huge corporation filled with products.

GM started a brand new company from scratch. New factories, new management system, new cars made from the ground up, even with their own new engine designs. Saturn car company. They were 'off limits' to GM. That company (Saturn) was so successful, they could barely keep up with sales.

Now, Saturn has been basically integrated into the GM shadows, the product lines no longer reflect new advancements and neat, intriquing qualities. Instead, they look amazingly 'inexpensive' compared to what they used to be. (In their big days, they competed with Honda, which is huge in the car world).

I hate to put down a product, so for all Saturn enthusiasts, my apologies. I wish GM would leave you guys alone and let Saturn make their cars their way.

Same with FS. I wish MS would leave Aces alone and let them make their sim.




Bill

kjb
February 5th, 2009, 20:35
Same with FS. I wish MS would leave Aces alone and let them make their sim.I think that would have been the smarter answer. Assuming it was profitable, spinning it off into a separate division would make sense. Shutting it down because it doesn't meet some new mission statement about synergy and strategic visions doesn't make sense. I can't see the logic in killing a profitable part of a company, regardless of how small it is.

crashaz
February 5th, 2009, 21:13
http://www.enterpriseirregulars.com/EI/34879

Microsoft cedes world sim to Google?

Ugh... I still want to just slap myself.:faint:

Lionheart
February 6th, 2009, 09:59
http://www.enterpriseirregulars.com/EI/34879

Microsoft cedes world sim to Google?

Ugh... I still want to just slap myself.:faint:





You know.... Its funny you bring this up.


I was playing around on Google Earth the other day, checking out Paris at a 30 degree angle, when all of a sudden, all these buildings started popping up.

It seems people have been making 3D buildings quite a bit, and alot of them (not all) are mapped with textures.. Google even features mips which would fuzz out (on the buildings) when you were far away from them, just like FS does.

.........and... I got to thinking.. How cool would it be if Google did a sim? They already have a sim, but what if they went a step farther and had exterior views and you could have your own planes like in FS?


Now... Think about it. You would have 'the world' in photo scenery...... The world! (all of Earth...)


If that could be done, with good frame rates, that would be one impressive sim.

I for one love flying with FS in TileProxy mode, though it stopped working for me a couple of weeks ago, which makes me think the groups that have photo scenery have shut down access for it by simmers. But when simming with photo real scenery, its just amazing how you can fly over famous locations and see everything from highways, to famous landmarks, to shopping malls.


A next-generation Google Sim might be one awesome thing. Might, lol... it WOULD be awesome!


Bill

stiz
February 6th, 2009, 10:02
i actually think that if a google sim would be utter crap, i actually find google earth horrid to look at from any other angle other than straight down :kilroy:

cajj1
February 6th, 2009, 10:37
Even the BBC have picked the story up now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7874937.stm

The article includes a wonderful quote from Nels Anderson:


Flight sims were one of the few things about Microsoft people actually liked.:icon_lol:

extrudinator
February 6th, 2009, 15:10
The future of computing will be The Metaverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse), and Microsoft wants to own it. I just can't believe that they jettisoned their core talent in this area. I don't believe it. I think we will find out the truth of this shortly.

Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
February 6th, 2009, 15:24
" The Metaverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse) " Isnt that called the Cloud by these companies ?

Ms has their own personal Guru , wants to change our lives ....

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-12/ff_ozzie

crashaz
February 6th, 2009, 20:22
Yeah? Well they sure got Flight Simulator in startup mode. :karate:

extrudinator
February 7th, 2009, 04:23
Hmmmm.

It looks like Microsoft is run by a lunatic and a guy who wants to relive his glory days at the University of Illinois. Maybe Microsoft IS dead??

If you click on the words "The Metaverse" in my post it will take you to the Wiki article explaining what it is. It's the future of computing. One day you will don your Track IR-like device and go shopping on Gates Street in downtown Virtual City and just move around and interact with other people just like moving around and interacting in the "real" world. Communicate by voice (interpreted if required) and do business just as if you could move around the globe at will (like Superman)-- because you WILL be able to move around the globe at will. Don't like the price that guy is charging for Number 4 Wing Nuts? Go shopping in South Africa or take a side trip to Smolensk. Compare prices from around the world and set up deals without ever leaving your home office.

Is there a problem with shipping? Troubleshoot your delivery in The Metaverse. The merging of this "reality" with "virtual reality" will become more and more seamless over time. Eventually, we will swap back and forth from one "reality" to the other without blinking. All interfaces will become one.

This is twenty years in the future. Get ready for it. If Microsoft messes up at this stage they will be out of the game.

Prowler1111
February 7th, 2009, 05:07
If Microsoft messes up at this stage they will be out of the game.
Honestly, i donīt give a @#| about MS disapearing or not, i do care what will happen to the FS franchise....they deserve whatever they will take, on my books, bunch of punks....

Prowler