GMax and LOD's

[stuart277]

G'Day to all
My name is Stuart and I have been working on ship designs for CFS2 using GMax.
At the moment I have been doing some Japanese Destroyers but I have run into a possible problem.
They have a lot of 25mm AA guns that take up a lot of poly's, and as small targets, they do not need too many poly's.
The obvious solution is why use them, however, they do make up the ships armament, however effective hat may be.
I thought about set them up in LOD's so thay can be 'invisible' at distances over 1000m (or so) but I do not know how to do this.
I have GMax 2004 and there is no obvious LOD 'button' as there is in other GMax modules.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Stuart

[hairyspin]

Not sure where you find an LOD button in Gmax, even 3ds Max doesn't have that until version 2008. You have to build LODs yourself and name them as per the SDK. It's not too hard to simplify a clone of your existing geometry. Good luck!

[Blood_Hawk23]

G'Day to all
My name is Stuart and I have been working on ship designs for CFS2 using GMax.
At the moment I have been doing some Japanese Destroyers but I have run into a possible problem.
They have a lot of 25mm AA guns that take up a lot of poly's, and as small targets, they do not need too many poly's.
The obvious solution is why use them, however, they do make up the ships armament, however effective hat may be.
I thought about set them up in LOD's so thay can be 'invisible' at distances over 1000m (or so) but I do not know how to do this.
I have GMax 2004 and there is no obvious LOD 'button' as there is in other GMax modules.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Stuart

Stuart!!!

Welcome back my friend.

so do you want the quick and dirty approach or the longer (tough not by much) version.

Take your Kako, that was the first ship we worked on so I'll start with that.

All of the parts that you currently have add this after each name; "_LOD_100" (no quotations)

an example would be the Hull. name it Hull_LOD_100. do the same for all of the parts you currently have.

On the right side where you have the tabs for Create, Modify and so on, select create.

next click the little button that says helpers. we will now make a dummy box. size doesn't matter. just make it big enough to work with.

now you will need to make sure it is zeroed out. make sure the "X", "Y" and "Z" values are at zero.

next name the box Kako_LOD_100.

you should now have all of your parts with the "_LOD_100" extension and a box named Kako_LOD_100. what we want to do now is link all of the parts to the box. how i do it is to select the box and hide it then select all of the parts and unhide the box.

the top bar, under the menu bar, you should have the arrow in yellow/orange selected. next to that on the left are 2 buttons select the one with the 2 little boxes and chains.

now on the right side of the arrow is an arrow with lines. select that check the bock that says display subtree. and click on the Kako_LOD_100. this should take all of the parts and link it to the Kako_LOD_100 box. to test it select the box and move it. all of the parts should move with it. if not undo the move and try again.

by the looks of the model you already know how to link parts. so this is just a refresher.

now you can take and make the next model. you can give the next parts "_LOD_080" or if you want more LODs you can use "_LOD_90" if you want less use "_LOD_075". depending on how much detail you want you can do 080, 060, 040, 010.

As you make more LODs you can go very simple on the modeling and polys. remove the parts that are not needed. make it boxier. so on and so on. at LOD_010. you can go very simple with maybe the hull as a box and the top as a box as well.

you will have to texture them. so either map the sections with the same textures or make a basic one for the smaller LODs. just remember to make sure everything will match up at a distance and transition smoothly. I would use textures and not just materials as any repaints won't match.

after you have made all of the models and named them the correct LOD level you will merge all of them together.

Oh Here is something you will want to do. LOD_100 material start with 00 or 01 in the names of the material. when you do the material for LOD_080 and so on you something like 20 or 50 to start. so if you start with 00 and end at 10 start the next LOD with 20. Do you follow what I'm talking about?

That is so when you merge your models you don't mess up the materials or and mapping on them.

After all of the models are merged you just compile it as normal.

If you need examples I can send you some of the models I've made. If you need more help contact Allen. he is the one that taught me. You can also ask Robert John or the B24Guy. Robert might be busy so if you don't hear back right away don't worry.

You should still have my email. I'll drop you a message so you have it.

Thats is as simple as I can make it. Allen or one of the others might be able to clarify things if you need it.

Take care my friend.

Till Later,
John

[stuart277]

Hi John:wavey:
Thanks for that.
I got your email and I will check out Allen's info.
At the moment I am not sure about what the difference is between LOD_100 and LOD_90 etc, but I will look into it.

Hi Hairyspin
Thanks for the info.
I do not know what SDK is.

Cheers
Stuart

[hairyspin]

It's the Software Development Kit, as supplied with/for CFS2? I build for CFS3 and the SDK was a download from MS, the SDK for FSX was included with the Deluxe version. It explains part naming, animations, texture format, sounds etc. I would hope the CFS2 guys should be able to tell you where or how to get it.

[Blood_Hawk23]

The easiest way I can discribe it is the _LOD_100 is the full view of the model with the most detail. _LOD_090 would still have alot of detail in the model but not as much as the model its self. the _LOD_010 would have the least amount of detail. it could be just a flat poly or maybe a simple box. all of the part would have that tag for the respective LOD. so in case of the Kako all of the parts would add "_LOD_100". now you have to make a new model for the next LOD (Level of Detail) you could start with _LOD_090, but unles you want to make 10 new models I would start with "_LOD_080" or even "_LOD_075".

check your email i'm sending one of the static models i did. so you can see what i mean.


Hairyspin,
any and all information is welcome. please share any thing you have. i know i could use more on the subject. actually my issue is the textures but thats another topic.

Till Later,
John

[Blood_Hawk23]

I'm using both the FS2002 and FS2004 SDKs. let me know if you need one of them. they have the makemdl.exe for compiling the model. you must be using one of them already.

CFS2 can use either. I use the FS2002 for my simple bgls and FS2004 for the more complex BGLs and MDLs.

You have to do a special setup to use both in one install of GMax.

[hairyspin]

This is the gorgeous Bf109E built by Luca Festari and the late Gerard for CFS3: it's in the Mediterranean Air War (MAW) expansion. I haven't shown all the LODs, but this will give you an idea how the various LODs decrease in detail - see the wireframe shot in particular.


https://i.imgur.com/ir0yChj.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/3cX0z59.jpg



The hierarchy of LODs for the model are usually done as Bloodhawk says above and as a rough guide the poly count should be in accordance with the LOD number. So if LOD100 (fully detailed) has 1000 polys then LOD75 would have around 750 polys, but I have found the LOD actually displayed is decided by the sim itself. To determine which LOD is being displayed I borrowed an idea from bzhyoyo and put a coloured sphere off the wingtip of my own model: LOD100 has a red sphere, LOD 90 has orange, then yellow, green, and purple for the second lowest LOD - the lowest of all is little more than a dot in the sim.


https://i.imgur.com/ifrDZRA.jpg


The spheres are removed from the model once I'm finished the LOD work. Oh btw, the LODs are all centered on the same point, unlike the above screenshot: it is very poor form to have a model jump a couple of yards to one side when switching between LODs but it has happened...

The FS2002 SDK can be downloaded from FSDeveloper (http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/categories/fs2002.7/), as can the FS2004 SDK. Another extremely useful - no, essential add-on for Gmax - is MeshTools 2.5 (http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/meshtools) and its installation and use are described here (http://ground-studios.com/stuff/meshtools/meshtools_eng.htm). To me, the tool for removing vertices cleanly is indispensable when simplifying a model.

[Milton Shupe]

Nice of you to display the LOD pics to show differences. I am curious; do you have to remap each lower LOD model to fit the textures or is the mapping somehow preserved.

[stuart277]

Thank you Gents:applause:
John
Thanks for the goodies.
It works well, I have reduced the polys from 12000 (LOD_100) to 5500 (LOD_ 050).
Hairyspin
Great idea with the bubbles, I noticed that the change from (LOD_050) to (LOD_ 100) occured at about 2300m.
Now onto the can of worms called DP's.
Cheers
Stuart

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hairyspin,
I must say that is an excellent example. You are very much correct on the models being centered. Try it with it off center and be ready to laugh.

That sphere on the wing tip is a great idea as well. I'll have to try it.

What does the meshtool do? That is something I haven't used yet.

Milton.
Yes remapping is required for all of the LOD models. As the model gets less detailed its a bit easier. To some extent...

Now if you use some of the same parts then you can keep the mapping. For example, from 100 to 75 I would reuse the elevators, ailerons and rudder. Well maybe not the rudder on some models. For 40 and Below you can leave out the elevators and ailerons and just have the wings. For FSX this might be different as the models tend to be of higher quality. For CFS2 it would be fine.

The real trick will come with the animations. I haven't gotten into that yet. So I'm not the best one to ask about it. I'm still working on getting my texture mapping to the quality that I want.

Stuart,
Another thing to add is the tagtool script if you ever want to design aircraft. Not sure if that is included in the SDKs. It has all of the tags for all of the aircraft parts. This includes the breaking parts and animations. You wont need it for your ships. I wonder if you can add breaking parts to ships. Hummm...

If you need help with the DPs let me know. I've already done a few for your RN WWI models. They all are custom to your model. I could probably do a couple ships a nite on my days off.

Till Later,
John

[hairyspin]

... do you have to remap each lower LOD model to fit the textures or is the mapping somehow preserved.

Good question Milton, it depends on how you build the additional LODs. You can build the LODs from scratch and remap as you go, or base them on the top-level LOD after it has been mapped. I used the second approach for the Tempest model above and used the finished textures to see when things were going awry.

Start with simplifying things not easily noticed from a short distance: flap recesses, gear wells, finer details of undercarriage mechanisms, exhaust manifolds. These are where we spend polys like water anyway and just aren't seen clearly at 100m + and we can include aerial wire and small antennae in that lot.

As you get to lower LODs, the main mesh of wings, fuselage, empennage etc are simplified and here the texture mapping starts to drift gently, but the model is far enough away this isn't noticeable.

This is how 'tis done, looking at the fuselage object only:-

https://i.imgur.com/AiTmpH8.jpg


Note the warning about E-poly, try this in E-mesh and you'll come to grief!

Now for it: did you know edges can be deleted in E-poly without trashing the entire model?

https://i.imgur.com/Ho1DFaa.jpg



This removes the unwanted edges, but the vertices they hung on are still there. If you try just deleting vertices in Gmax you'll trash the mesh, but if they're not removed the triangle count on exporting to the sim is hardly altered from the original LOD100. Target Welding them will screw the mapping and is not an option.

The fastest, simplest method for removing vertices is one of the MeshTools, Erase Vertex Clean. I have the MeshTools on a toolbar to the left of the screen for easy access:-


https://i.imgur.com/pZN3u3W.jpg


It takes moments to do, the mapping is almost undisturbed and we've lost 72 polys with this easy procedure:-


https://i.imgur.com/b20pMbC.jpg

[hairyspin]

Here's another example from further back on the fuselage, before and after. The mapping has drifted ever so slightly, but for LOD40 it isn't noticed at all:-


https://i.imgur.com/9ouPFVX.jpg


That's the gist. You should have Undo set to fairly high levels when doing this and you may have to try several different approaches before you get the desired result. Frequent incremental saving is essential.

This also reveals flaws in your modelling like nothing else - you'll find holes in odd corners and have to sort them before simplification. Particular care is needed when simplifying where one object meets another, wing roots being a particular example. Keeping a close eye on symmetry is very important, both sides of the fuselage should be kept the same if they're symmetrical at LOD100.


(As an aside, 3ds Max users have vertex removal available in the program. I use Max 2008 and it's a very handy feature.)

[Allen]

MeshTools will work in gMax but you need a script called bamse_MTPalette_E.mse that needs to go into your C:\gmax\scripts\Startup folder. Other have not needed the bamse_MTPalette_E.mse to get things working so just a heads up.

Tool seems okay. Suck bad that it chokes hard on any open edges....

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hey Allen,

Do you have a link to the script?

No I haven't looked for it yet. Just thought I'd ask before I did.

Guys this is great stuff. keep it coming.

[Allen]

Link for Meshtools.
http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/Meshtools

The Meshtools read me has install instructions. You can skip step 1 as you won't have any other versions installed. At 4. it will say to copy all .bmp s to gmax/ui/icons and gmax/ui/discreet. gMax dosn't have a discreet folder in the ui folder so make one and put the .bmps in it.

The link is below and page is japanese but it is not hard to find the bamse_MTPalette.zip link at the top.
http://www.picopico.jp/plasma/script/mtpalette.html

The "bamse_MTPalette_E.mse" will need to go into "c:/gmax/scripts/startup/"

[hairyspin]

For those who don't read Japanese, here's the direct link to the Bamse download

edit: the site has gone. The download is on next page (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?87598-GMax-and-LOD-s&p=930451&viewfull=1#post930451) of this thread.

[Blood_Hawk23]

For those who don't read Japanese...

Thank You Allen and Hairyspin. This was something that I've been missing. Maybe now I can get a few of my projects completed.

[misson]

Hi to every body!!
I ´m wondering if it´s posible to add a lod in a gmax full detailed model using another model like a 3ds , less detailed.

Also using modelconverterx we can generate a less detailed model from the detailed. and export it like .bgl or 3ds or .obj. Then pick them up with gmax (my first idea is add the less detailed model to the first one ) .
Why by this way? Because i´m working in cfs2 conversions from gmax source sent by autor, but modelconverterx doesnt add lods to a cfs2 model converted. In the case that i´m working on, simply convertx doesnt read the model converted.

Thanks!
Mario

[hairyspin]

If I understand you right, you have the gmax source file for the model and are preparing it for CFS2. If you export it in format which MCX can produce LODs from, you'll have a whole heap of work to do with the results to get them ready for CFS2 again.

I recommend using the methods described above with the Gmax source. 3ds and obj don't retain as much information as gmax files. It's still a lot of work but not as much as reworking other file formats.

[Milton Shupe]

For those who don't read Japanese, here's the direct link to the Bamse download:- http://picopico.jp/plasma/download/bamse_MTPalette.zip

This link no longer works, at least for me. I still need this zip file. :-/ Thanks

[hairyspin]

The site seems to have disappeared, bother! You could make your own toolbar, as per the thread earlier this year: Creating toolbars in Gmax for MeshTools (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?87719-Creating-toolbars-in-Gmax-for-MeshTools) If you really need the Bamse toolbar I can upload it after the holidays.

[misson]

If I understand you right, you have the gmax source file for the model and are preparing it for CFS2. If you export it in format which MCX can produce LODs from, you'll have a whole heap of work to do with the results to get them ready for CFS2 again.

I recommend using the methods described above with the Gmax source. 3ds and obj don't retain as much information as gmax files. It's still a lot of work but not as much as reworking other file formats. U understood well and same time you gave the answer to me. Now i need to get the correct proceeding.
Thank you
Cheers
Mario

[hairyspin]

Here's the bamseMTPalette.zip file, should anyone still want it. :mixed-smiley-010:

[Blood_Hawk23]

Glad you found it. I may need it again at some point. You never know.

[misson]

Hello! As you see I'm trying to generate lods in this plane of M Shupe and MVG3d for use in CFS2. I did like the tutorial doc says in the corresponding steps and actually could do lods with another plane, but in this case I'm having problems.
1) I do the dummy and put everything to zero as pic1.
2) I use select and link tool and move the cursor in areas, but here the problems begin, only parts is white and selected, so I select and I link various parts as in pic 2.
3) when I select to copy and rename the _LOD_xxx (to clone), only a part of the plane is illuminated and is selected. As this hapens, intuitively i have done is to group all parties and name them as NAME_LOD_050 , but when using the MODIFY TAB to start reducing polys, gmax crash to desktop.


What am I doing wrong in this process? thank you very much.
Mario

[Allen]

I'm not sure what you are doing...

[misson]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Allen http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=931119#post931119)
I'm not sure what you are doing...



Hello Allen! Well... in the gmax scenery tutorial (into gmax/gamepack/fs2004/docs folder) u will find a way to make lods from a simple model (in this tut a house)
Following this tut , i could make lods a simple model of 1Mb , after that the model was increased to 3Mb, i ´ve exported and compilled it succefully like a multilod fs2004 model. In fact using ACM i can see the lods.

So i ´ve tried with the CANT Z 1007 trying to add lods using the same tut.
My problems begin when i try to select the plane to clone it , and rename it as xxx_LOD_XXX .
When i do click on the plane pressing shift at same time (to open the clone window) only a part (any part ) of the plane is selected (and not all the plane) , so i only could to clone a single part of the plane .

how can i do to clone the entire plane to rename it to a xxx_LOD_XXX?

The main gmax source is 24Mb , after make lods it goes up to 50Mb and that perhaps is too heavie source ! so that could be the reason why i have a CTD when i want to modify the polys.
Thanks
Mario

[Milton Shupe]

I am going to "stick" this thread as there is so much good info here. Thanks gents for pulling it together. :applause:

[Allen]

If your trying to clone the whole plane you can drag a box around the whole plane. With the whole plane selected you can go to Edit and Clone. Click okay athe the whole plane will be cloned.

[misson]

If your trying to clone the whole plane you can drag a box around the whole plane. With the whole plane selected you can go to Edit and Clone. Click okay athe the whole plane will be cloned.Thank you Allen , that sounds as solution, any tut? how i do that? simply do click aroud the blue box and drag it ? is the dummy box u are talking about? What about the source weight , could that be a problem ?
Sorry if i do too many questions.
Cheers
Mario

[misson]

If your trying to clone the whole plane you can drag a box around the whole plane. With the whole plane selected you can go to Edit and Clone. Click okay athe the whole plane will be cloned.Ok , I think that i got it. Now running with other troubles, I´ll let u know later.
Thank u very much
Mario

[misson]

Hi guys again! When i try to export from gmax to a model, i got this error log. Only happen when i try to export a multilod model.
I am worry specially for the "error A20xx: initializer magnitude too large for specified size" issues, the others are not a great problem.
Thank u
Mario

[Allen]

Never seen that one before.....

[hairyspin]

I've seen this before though:–


....(Part Lever_Flap02) Found colinear vertices within triangle
( 0.008025, 0.131184,-0.102669)
( 0.209694, 0.131184,-0.102669)
( 0.108860, 0.131184,-0.102669).
(Part windows-cockpit01) Found colocated vertices within triangle
( 6.916657,12.410140, 2.318307)
( 6.916657,12.410140, 2.318307)
( 7.060663,12.372863, 2.085378).
Model units are 1024.00 units/meter
Sorting by Material...
Optimize Parts...
Welding...
Generate BGL...
ERROR: Animation trigger emexit_pilot not found, mapped to "userdefined8"....

The System Unit in Gmax must be set to 1 unit = 1 metre

HTH, Tom

[Milton Shupe]

Hi guys again! When i try to export from gmax to a model, i got this error log. Only happen when i try to export a multilod model.
I am worry specially for the "error A20xx: initializer magnitude too large for specified size" issues, the others are not a great problem.
Thank u
Mario

Unfortunately, I have seen this several times over the years.

It may be related to stray vertices, too many polys, too many parts, or weird part construction, and more. Its not a specifically name error; more of a catch all for mesh issues or over-running the 65536 limits on addressable storage.

I have been fighting this issue for 3 months on the Bounty project, and sent it last week to Hairyspin for another set of eyes to looks at it.

I am hoping he sees something I do not. :-/

[Blood_Hawk23]

Mario,

I sent you a message. Let me know if it helps.

Milton,

Yeah currently the whole model (with the new LOD) has 135402 polys. I noticed a couple little things and thats in my message to Mario.

Its a very complex model so there is going to be issues. I don't know how you all can keep it strait. So many parts. I think I've advised all that I can. The rest is beyond me. I leave it to the Masters.

[hairyspin]

Ouch! That's more than twice 64K polys, how many textures does it use?

[hairyspin]

We have a problem here with opaque error messages and as Milton says there are a number of possible causes. Misson may have too many polys or not enough textures, others have the System Unit other than at 1 unit = 1 metre and there's always the possibility of having borked something together with thick fingers. However there's another woodchuck in the woodpile to watch out for: scale not at 100%

I came across this again by accident because the exporter for CFS3 flags up scaling errors directly, whereas other exporters are less than explicit. How do you know if this is the case? Time to look at a little-used feature of Gmax (little used in FS developing anyway...), the Track View.

https://i.imgur.com/Cr6Jno6.jpg


The Track View opens a window which can be chock-full of information, here for the object hull:–

https://i.imgur.com/0YGxIxq.jpg



and that's not all that can be shown, the list of bumf extends a lot further than this screenshot. What interests us is the Scale data (highlighted) which here is 100% on all three axes – so far so good.

To make hunting down scaling errors easier, filter the information:–

https://i.imgur.com/NJonMTN.jpg



This will show only the scale information for each object:–

https://i.imgur.com/Bd3xLmX.jpg

[hairyspin]

Now step down the list. looking at Scale values for each object in turn:–

https://i.imgur.com/18lMMnu.jpg


Gotcha...

These will cause the exporter to cough.

[misson]

Thank u very much guys!! well it seems that i ´ll have new attemps!
Thank u Hairspin for show me , how to do it!
I´ll let you know about my progress.
Bloodhawk, thanks for u help, i´ll keep contact with ya!
Cheers!
Mario

[misson]

Must be a lot of these issues! And i´ve found a lot of parts with that problem. But if we change that value , perhaps something turns wrong, because i knew about such scale in MVG models but i dont know reason why it was done in that way!
And how to change this value?
Thank you
Mario

[Blood_Hawk23]

I found a few others.

[dvslats]

Hello Gents,

I have no experience in Gmax, but thought this might help.

It is mvg3d's reply as to why his model would not show in Aircraft Container Manager.



The mesh is 1600% bigger than the real scale in order to avoid the mkmdl's "4mm snap", ACM recognize the mesh, but cannot display the parameters and the zoom (with "A" or "S") doesn't work, for ACM the visual model is out of scale, it is indeed, but editing the "azm" and transforming the intermediate files in "bgl", then in "mdl" and editing it with AFCAD we "constrain" FS to show correctly the plane.....

mvg3d


mkmdl's 4 mm snap ?

Dave

Edit: Found this in a search...."FS9 Unlimited Export system, shatters the 4MM Vertice distance limit, and 65,000 polygon limit."

[hairyspin]

Hello Dave,

The 4mm vertex limit for FS9 doesn't stop a model exporting, instead it mangles small parts. This is why (almost) all FS9 models don't have 3D gauges in the VC, they depend on XML-driven ones which the sim draws itself. Bill Ortis developed a way around that for Gmax but it's an awkward and sometimes unstable process. Search at FSDeveloper if you want to know more. Incompatibility with Aircraft Container Manager (an excellent third-party developer's toolset) is not the issue here.

[hairyspin]

To cure Scaling problems is really easy especially if your model is organised in a decent hierarchy, and let's face it — for CFSx it has to be properly organised.

Select the topmost object in the model's hierarchy:–

https://i.imgur.com/weLiIcO.jpg



Now go to the Hierarchy panel and click on Reset:Scale:–

https://i.imgur.com/lapXVUy.jpg


Press PageDown on your keyboard once and the selection will move to the next level down the hierarchy (child objects of Hudson here), and click on Reset:Scale again. You'll see how many objects are actually selected on the Status bar at the bottom of the Gmax screen:–

https://i.imgur.com/dbXQ72Q.jpg



Repeat this PageDown / Reset:Scale sequence until all the objects in your model have had their scale reset to 100%. Takes less time than it took to write this...

Simples!

[misson]

Hairspin Thanks for your detailed explanation. I tried smoothly, exept when exporting the model. New errors appeared, without the reset of scale, they were no problem.:cower::stupid::hopelessness:
Cheers
Mario