Exterior mdl shadowing, room for improvement

[SolRayz]

Hi Paul!
I was searching for you, and had not realized you left avsim. Anywho, maybe you can shed some light on this issue. The exterior model shadowing seems to be quite glitchy and jumps around a lot, especially when panning around in spot view or panning around with trackIR. Is this just a limitation of FSX, or is there away to mitigate this somewhat. It seems much worse in dx10. Any solutions in the fixer?

[Paul J]

hahaha! ... Great to see you again Marc! That was a pretty sharp "Hello" from Tom, wasn't it!

.....and with that - I'm going to refer you right back to Steve's "Official DX10 Support Forum", as this is the first complaint of this nature that I've ever heard of - and have never seen it myself. I would say that it's a purely FSX issue, as shadowing wasn't a priority with the FSX team in DX9, and when DX10 came along and rolled into SP2, I reckon many of these guys were learning DX10 on the job - including the leadership, as it was so new to them. It's not too uncommon to be steamrolled into a job where you have to learn a new language from scratch - on your own and then make something work.

All the Best, :encouragement:

pj

[SolRayz]

Good to see you too, and yes that was rather abrupt. But it is what is...

I posted a video that I took. I'd love to know if there is a issue on my end, or is everyone in FSX seeing this issue. Mind you I'm using EZDOC to move around the aircraft. I've discovered that the jumpy shadows seem to stop altogether the further I move away from the aircraft. If only I could solve this one problem, dx10 is about perfect for me. :banghead:


http://youtu.be/ivTHsF3P_7k

[Adamski_NZ]

I used to get this all the time - with most aircraft. In the older version (pre 2.2) disabling "Toned Shadows" was meant to get around it.

It's been fixed in 2.2 and I haven't seen much of it - but I'm keeping an eye on it!

Adam.

[noddy]

Funny enough I get the same effect on some of the aircraft as well, no EZDOC just moving around using the mouse.

[SolRayz]

I just got the word from Steve to disable toned shadows pre v2.2, as well. I will install the latest version tonigh and report back.

[Adamski_NZ]

I just got the word from Steve to disable toned shadows pre v2.2, as well. I will install the latest version tonigh and report back.
I'm going to have to do some more testing (and report to Steve) ... as all seems to be OK with v2.2 except when you go under a cloud - and you appear to get the artefacts again. I'll need to disable toned shadows and look for clouds ;-)

Adam.

[SolRayz]

Well I upgraded to latest version 2.2 and I still get this jerky/jumpy shadowing when moving around the aircraft, especially close up. The further out I go, this artifacting seems to subside. I'm pretty stumped. :banghead:

[SolRayz]

Ok, so I found a painstaking but working solution. It turns out that tweaking the .mdl file was all I needed for perfect exterior shadows. I used developer app called RADItor which allows you to adjust the shadow parameters within .mdl file. It turns out that adjusting the radius parameter to 15 (max) eliminates the issue completely for me. Unfortunately I had adjust each .mdl for each airplane...bleh. But on the bright side it works! Shadows look great now.


The two following links helped solve my problem
http://www.sim-outho...-shadow-problem (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?70828-FSX-self-shadow-problem)
http://www.fsdevelop...p?title=RADItor (http://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php?title=RADItor)

[Adamski_NZ]

Which aircraft did you have the problems with? I could have sworn I saw it happen with my 2.2 at some stage, but can't reproduce it now! I've been through many of my favourites and they all seem to perform perfectly! :lol:

I'm keen to see whether this fix works.

Adam.

[SolRayz]

Well, it seems that it's a universal problem with all my 3rd party and default planes. I should also preface that I am working with a clean install of FSX, so there is nothing wonky with my build that could cause this issue. I think everyone who runs FSX has this problem and go's generally unnoticed. Like I've said, the issue is less obvious if using traditional FSX spot view when viewing the aircraft. It is much more apparent when using outside views through ezdok and panning with trackIR simultaneusly. I also know that this is a problem in dx9, but since most people disable exterior self shadow in dx9, it's go's largely unreported.

It certainly works, because your adjusting a radius parameter (sorry for being cryptic, because I am not totally sure what radius is refering to) around the aircraft, and effectively moving it further out. Using RADItor and setting the radius to 15, seems to be the max for me, anything higher and external shadows are disabled completely. Maybe the radius refers to distance in meters? Lets assume.

The only downfall, is after moving further than 15 meters out from the aircraft, the jumpy shadowing re-occurs. At this point you are so far out that it is much less distracting. Moving even further out from 15 meters, the jumpy shadows stop and all is good again. So this radius edge should just be avoided. I wish I knew more about this, but I am not a programmer and much of this shadow mapping stuff is way over my head. :dizzy:

[Adamski_NZ]

As a matter of interest, where is your scenery<->aircraft slider? Mine is set all the way to the right (aircraft). I no longer have EZDOK, but use OPUS for my camera views. The outside views can be zoomed and panned just as in EZDOK.

I'm zooming all the way in and all the way back out and can no longer get these corrupt shadows to show. Apart from the slight differences that came with 2.2 (and re-enabling toned shadows) I haven't made any real changes in the Fixer.

What I *do* occasionally see, however, is all the shadows disappearing for a very short time. On the default MS P-51 this occurs at a zoom between 3.11 and 3.23 (all else is OK). This was in an OPUS external (pan-able) view. The "radius" for that .mdl is approx 5.956. I haven't tried fiddling with it (yet).

Here's my .dfp profile:

[General]
ShadowBiasSmall=1
ShadowBiasLarge=1
DarkShadowFactor=0
IncreaseContrast=0
HDShadows=0
DisableShadowFade=1
DarkShadows=0
ShadowFalloff=1
TonedShadows=1
ForceVCShadows=1
BloomFactor=0
LightBloomFactor=60
CopyBloomFactor=0
ModulatedBloomFactor=60
LimitEnvBloom=1
DontIncreaseLights=1
HeadlightBloom=0
AlphaBloom=2
8BitFix=0
FtxGFog=1
LandingFog=1
EverythingFog=1
AxisFix=0
[Water40]
SpecularFactor=0.1
FresnelMin=0.15
FresnelMax=0.19
AlphaDiscard=0
NoStars=0
MoonPhase=1
AntiShimmer=0
AltNormals=0
NightFactor=18
MoonAmbientFactor=18
[Clouds40]
DisableMSAA=0
AlphaDiscard=0
ShrinkClouds=0
FogDiscard=0
MissingTexture=0
[Rain40]
SlowSnow=1
HideTextureChange=1
Stretch=0
LightFactor=70
[Legacy]
LegacyShadows=0
LegacyAdvancedAlpha=1
AlphaIsPlane=1
AlphaTestEnable=0
DisableDiffuseAlpha=0
IgnoreBlackNM=0
SpecularIsPlane=1


Or as you see it in the Fixer:

SETTINGS 2.2:
================================================== ========

DX10: ON
DX10 A/A: 8x 32x 16xQ CSAA (32x current)

Legacy Shader:
---------------
Scenery-Balanced-Aircraft Aircraft
V2.0 Transparency Logic: ON
V2.0 Lighting Rules: ON
Legacy Aircraft Self Shadow: OFF
DX10 Compatible Reflections ON


Shadows:
---------------
HD Jet Shadows: OFF
Improved Shadows: ON
Reduced Fall-off with Angle: ON
Toned Shadows: ON
Reduce Fade in Poor Visibilty: ON
Force VC Walls: ON
Enable Shadow Boost: OFF
Bias Small: 0.02
Bias Large: 0.02
Shadow Boost: 0
Contrast: 0


Bloom:
---------------
Limit Environment Bloom: ON
Limit Light Scaling: ON
1) Reflective [Aircraft]: 0
2) Lights (Emissive) [Scenery Models] 60
3) Headlights Always Off / 0
4) Lights (Alpha/Halo) [Runway/Nav] Always On / 60
5) Light Glare Halo 80

[1,2] Need FSX Bloom setting enabled <?>
[3,4] Used regardless of FSX Bloom setting


Rain Shader:
---------------
Rain Brightness: 70
Slow Snow: OFF
Disable ASN Texture Change Fix: ON
Stretch: OFF


Clouds:
---------------
Disable MSAA: OFF
Cloud Clip: OFF
Cloud Cull: OFF
Discard Fogged: OFF
Missing Texture Fix: OFF


Water Shader:
---------------
Fresnel Min 0.15
Fresnel Max 0.19
Night Sky Reflection 18%
Moon Ambient Light 18%
Moon Phase Lighting ON
Night Star Filter OFF
Disable Distant Land Reflections: OFF
Alternative Normals: OFF


Effects:
---------------
Onvert Effects ON
Exclude Particle Effects OFF
Exclude ORBX Street Lights OFF
Exclude Shockwave Lights OFF


Other:
---------------
All effect Lights ON
Landing Lights ON
FTX Global/Vitaly ON
8Bit Texture Fix OFF
Axis Color Fix OFF

Debug:
---------------
All set to ON

[SolRayz]

Adamski, thanks for taking the time and posting your profile information. I gave your profile a shot last night, cleared the shader cache, and replaced the original .mdl in the default Maule. Interestingly, my performance went down a little, but I think I attribute that to you having Lights (Alpha/Halo) [Runway/Nav] Always On. I don't typically use bloom. Unfortionately the shadowing problem persists. I guess I will simply have to edit each plane.

I did find one downfall to this method. It seems the more you increase the radius, shadows seem to move further away from where they should be. Quite difficult to explain. The point at which the shadow should start, moves away more and more as the radius increases. It is more obvious on some ac over others. Maybe I'll post another video.

Also I was able to go over radius of 15, but the shadows are simply far too out of place.

[Adamski_NZ]

Adamski, thanks for taking the time and posting your profile information. I gave your profile a shot last night, cleared the shader cache, and replaced the original .mdl in the default Maule. Interestingly, my performance went down a little, but I think I attribute that to you having Lights (Alpha/Halo) [Runway/Nav] Always On. I don't typically use bloom. Unfortunately the shadowing problem persists. I guess I will simply have to edit each plane.

My profile (and general FSX settings) are biased towards visuals, not performance, as I enjoy taking screenshots. I don't mind if it's a slideshow as long as it looks good!

The big culprit may have been the basic DX10 A/A setting (DX10 A/A: 8x 32x 16xQ CSAA (32x current)). Did you remember to set your NVI accordingly? I may take bloom off altogether - not sure that I like it.

I'll have a go with the Maule again, but it was one of the aircraft I quickly ran through that [apparently] had no problems on my system. Post a screenshot or two (of the Maule) - showing the camera info at the top right - and I'll see if I can replicate them.

Adam.

EDIT: OK ... did some more tests on the Maule. There definitely *is* a problem. Note: This is with a full-blown exterior camera (EZDOK/OPUS) ... not the FSX external "spot" view.

Zoom 0.30 - 1.93 OK
Zoom 1.94 - 2.30 disappears altogether
Zoom 2.31 - 2.63 corrupt
Zoom 2.64 onwards OK

These values change a bit depending on the camera distance, but the effects follow the same pattern.

Steve????

[SolRayz]

I'm afraid that this will end up going down as a limitation in FSX shadow mapping. Like I said, you can mitigate by increasing the radius in the aircraft .mdl and moving that corruption further out, but the caviat, is that the shadowing itself shifts, the more you increase. There is a happy medium however. It's arduous to go through and test every aircraft, but I have found that a setting of 15m is workable with most aircraft.

I would be curious on how LM solved this problem for P3D, because this no longer an issue and shadowing looks great. They obviously revamped the whole shadowing process.