I don't understand Flight Simmers [Archive]

Blackbird686

January 19th, 2009, 05:11

Each to his own.......:ernae:.

You need to consider too that for some money is no object.....

I have expensive add-ons that are not even installed on my machine,cause they were not that much used...Then I have some cheapies that I use alot......

Same here... I have spent alot of time in Alpha's MiG-25 and F-111 Aardvark lately, (relatively inexpensive add-ons) as well as the latest version of the freeware L-049 amd L-749 Constellations.

BB686:USA-flag:

spotlope

January 19th, 2009, 05:25

The curious thing about FS add-on pricing is that it doesn't seem to matter (within reason) how you price a product. You would think that pricing a nice addon very cheaply might tempt a few people who otherwise wouldn't buy it to give it a go, but experience hasn't borne that out. Seems there are people who will buy a given product no matter the price, and people who don't want it at any price. There isn't much incentive to give rock-bottom pricing on the part of developers. Plum Island was an experiment on that count, and the results have been... interesting.

glennc

January 19th, 2009, 06:04

Bill, I hope that means "good and rewarding". Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a whole series of those north of Boston - or maybe between Boston and New York. Pease or Concord NH could be the new Bremerton and so on. I am also very interested in the new Emma. Heck, I'll buy anything you do.

Glenn

CodyValkyrie

January 19th, 2009, 06:50

Helldiver, you may not agree with the pricing... but let me say this. If a plane has been in development for several years, is your sole source of income as a addon producer, often works outside of FS core code, etc... I think it is fair to ask for such a price.

I have a friend that developed a very nice aircraft that took several years to produce. His sales are dysmal. He price is lower than the aircraft you mentioned, but his company may be going under due to these horrible sales.

As for overdone...? C'mon friend. Nobody can over-create an aircraft. What is the point of simulating otherwise? Sure, there are plenty that don't want this, but wouldn't you relish in having a Helldiver that worked as you remember it?

spotlope

January 19th, 2009, 07:23

Truthfully, as a developer I can fully appreciate how much more intense the work can be to create an airplane than scenery. Scenery developers are primarily interested in graphics, but a plane team needs to include programmers, gauge specialists, and flight dynamics experts in addition to modelers and texture artists. It's no wonder they cost so much more on average, and you'll never catch me begrudging them their fees. I've always been happier working as a one-man show, which is why I find scenery more rewarding.

FS sales are dismal across the board right now. I'm sorry to hear that it's affecting everyone, but at least I know that it's not just me. :d Hopefully things will improve soon. In the meantime, we all just have to keep on cranking out projects and crossing our fingers.

harleyman

January 19th, 2009, 07:55

Well i feel for all you builders / developers these days......I know sales are low,and the kids want to eat...Its a bad time for all...

Personally, i perfer scenery over highly detailed aircraft...Mostly because...

Flying to me is a hobby..High end things with big learning curbes do nothing fow me..I want to load it up and fly over visually apealing sceneary.....

Thats just me though........

Ferry_vO

January 19th, 2009, 08:14

Well, I payed $300 last week for a new steering wheel to control virtual cars in a sim that's a few years old, but I would never pay $15 for a piece of scenery I would look at only once or twice, no matter how good it is. I hardly ever download freeware scenery for the same reason.

Each his own, but I still am the only one who decides how I spend my money.

IanP

January 19th, 2009, 08:22

I do wonder whether HD meant overdone as in there are lots out there, not overdone as in "oversimulated"...

As multiple people have already said, each person has their own preferences and limits as to what they will/won't pay for. There are some here who say that payware is "wrong" altogether and that all add-ons should be free. There are others who will only buy warplanes. I doubt there are too many who will only buy airliners, but there are a large number who would dearly like to buy everything on the planet and sort out the dross from the gems later <sticks hand="" up...="">[</sticks>:wavey: <- me]
<sticks hand="" up...="">
...if only finances allowed, eh? :)

(My new CPU killed my budget for this - and possibly nex</sticks><sticks hand="" up...="">t - month. :( )</sticks>

Panther_99FS

January 19th, 2009, 08:31

I think maybe Bill Womack made a mistake. He should have asked $75 bucks for Plum Island.

Noooooooooooooo!

If he were to chart $75 for Plum Island, I wouldn't be an owner of it then like I am now....;)

Boomer

January 19th, 2009, 08:36

IMO its all about what you feel its worth.

The Mustang doesnt grab me that much so I wont pony over that much money for one. However if somone would do a P-38 with the same level of detail well then.... Thats a horse of a different color :costumes:

It wouldnt be the 1st time I was accused of having more dollars than sense :costumes:

JohnC

January 19th, 2009, 08:45

Where is a $75 P-51?

6297J

January 19th, 2009, 08:49

Where is a $75 P-51?

That's what I'm wondering.

CodyValkyrie

January 19th, 2009, 08:54

I think he might be referring to the Warbirdsim P-51B/C. Don't know if that is an exact price however. The Flight Leader pack is a bit pricey.

VCN-1

January 19th, 2009, 09:01

I really enjoy Plum Island. Excellent work.

VCN-1

Panther_99FS

January 19th, 2009, 09:07

Where is a $75 P-51?

Right here & coming to FSX soon....
-->
http://www.warbirdsim.com/Store.do?state=ViewCategory&category=3

IanP

January 19th, 2009, 09:10

I think he might be referring to the Warbirdsim P-51B/C. Don't know if that is an exact price however. The Flight Leader pack is a bit pricey.

It is quite, but it's also FS9 only right now, which kind of puts off any effect it might have on Plum. It does, however, prove my point as even were it for FSX, I couldn't afford it - and I'd really like it!

barryward12345

January 19th, 2009, 09:14

I have never been interested in installing individual airport scenery and dont really understand people who do. I installed some years ago - they were very good, but I use the Sim to FLY!, not to taxi around. At the end of the day, most FSx scenery is quite "cartoonish" anyway. . The only addon scenery that I find useful - are some packages that add some buildings to small country fields that are otherwise just a runway in default FSx (boring - and sometimes also hard to find)

Barry

CodyValkyrie

January 19th, 2009, 09:19

That's the beauty of Plum Island. It is a back country little ol' town airport. One that you could fly into and find yourself lost in the weeds. This is more about a community, a $100 burger rather than a schedule and a fee. I find such airports more enjoyable.

MCDesigns

January 19th, 2009, 09:31

For starters, HD is biased since it's where he lives and it's something he knows. As for the price vs the sim, that is just not something I never buy into to. If any of us that buy addons were to add up our purchases, most here would exceed the cost of the sim, so that argument is not valid, it's just an excuse to try and justify spending.

Simmers always complain about the lack of certain airports that they happen to love and wonder why they haven't been done by any payware company while the same ones keep getting done over and over again, well location is truly important and sometimes you can't really justify the time on development if no one is going to fly there and buy that airport.

There are enough P-51s to keep me happy and I can't think of any features that could be added to justify that kind of cost for my enjoyment. NOW if a P-40 addon came out with a very realistic acting/looking VC, easy on the frames, full combat effects, including an object lkibrary that has damage modeling and maybe some sweet missions, yeah, I would pony up that kind of money for a warbird.

Truthfully, as a developer I can fully appreciate how much more intense the work can be to create an airplane than scenery. Scenery developers are primarily interested in graphics, but a plane team needs to include programmers, gauge specialists, and flight dynamics experts in addition to modelers and texture artists. It's no wonder they cost so much more on average, and you'll never catch me begrudging them their fees. I've always been happier working as a one-man show, which is why I find scenery more rewarding.After building several aircraft in FS9, I can truly identify and support this statement from Bill.

I have never been interested in installing individual airport scenery and dont really understand people who do. I installed some years ago - they were very good, but I use the Sim to FLY!, not to taxi around. At the end of the day, most FSx scenery is quite "cartoonish" anyway. . The only addon scenery that I find useful - are some packages that add some buildings to small country fields that are otherwise just a runway in default FSx (boring - and sometimes also hard to find)

Barry

And that is the beauty of the sim, to enjoy it how you like. I spend more time at the airport than I do in the air. taking off and landing are the best parts of any flight for me, which is why i like short hops.

Boomer

January 19th, 2009, 09:37

If any of us that buy addons were to add up our purchases, most here would exceed the cost of the sim,

Sheeet... How about the price of the puter? :faint:

VaporZ

January 19th, 2009, 09:54

We can also turn the question around and ask the following :

I do not understand freeware developpers

Take for example Tim Conrad's superb PC-7, PC-21, and F-5A !!!

I would have paid between 20us$ to 30us$ for them without any
problems no questions asked !

and I have them free !

Same thing with be Bell 412PE of Jordan Moore.

If I have the talent of these two digital artists I will certainly sold my
creations as paywares !
:typing:
VaporZ

6297J

January 19th, 2009, 10:11

That P51 looks quite good but there are others out there of course. I have aircraft that for all the enjoyment I've had out of them I would happily have paid $75 for. I'd be much happier spending money on an aircraft I can fly for hours than a scenery I could fly over in a couple of minutes if I ever found myself on the east coast of the US which I never have and probably never will. If it was my home town or an area I knew well it would be different or if it was in an area with lots of other local addons like the Pacific North West was in the FS2004 days.

Henry

January 19th, 2009, 10:13

I dont understand Women!
But id be lost without them :focus:
LOL
H

MCDesigns

January 19th, 2009, 10:28

Sheeet... How about the price of the puter? :faint:

Seeing as you are still alive and posting I take it the misses hasn't found out about the new rig? LOL :typing:

Bomber_12th

January 19th, 2009, 10:34

Some 'food for thought'...

It is not easy paying for an aircraft manufacturer's license in order to put their name and logo to a product without the risk of the law enforcement stepping in. It is not easy to pay for the flights that are taken in the real aircraft in order to get a feel for the aircraft so that accurate flight dynamics can be developed and record the sounds directly. It is not easy to pay for each member of a team that puts together one particular product - developing it, testing it, promoting it, and publishing it, etc, throughout the course of a year or more. And most of all it is not easy dealing with 40% taxes on each and every sale. I can go on, but I think this gives a fairly good summary as to why the price in question is the way it has to be. ;)

ErnstF

January 19th, 2009, 10:37

Plum Island is on my list of most wanted scenery, but at the moment I`m too busy flying in and out of my favourite warbird airports, Hawaii Dillingham and West Malling :ernae: .
..........and of course, when the Warbirdsim P 51 Mustang is out for FSX, I be one of the first to purchase it, and I won`t even ask how much it cost....

Boomer

January 19th, 2009, 11:11

Seeing as you are still alive and posting I take it the misses hasn't found out about the new rig? LOL :typing:

I thought about & then decided it was a bad idea LOL!

I will leave it to the UPS gods. If she doesn't see it arrive I am golden. If she does....

TARPSBird

January 19th, 2009, 11:21

There are some warbirds and general aviation aircraft that have legions of fans, the P-51 for example. Flight simmers who are crazy for Mustangs will definitely buy that pricey plane and consider it money well spent for a "loaded" version of their favorite ride.
In the model train hobby, fans of the old Pennsylvania Railroad are very similar in their buying habits. If it's an updated version of a classic like the K-4 steamer or GG-1 electric, the Pennsy people will have their plastic out in a heartbeat. And in this case we're talking pre-release deposits for stuff in the $500-$1,000 MSRP price range. At least in the sim world we have the benefit of reviews and feedback from other users before we decide to buy that deluxe plane or scenery package. :)

Cazzie

January 19th, 2009, 11:22

I guess I belong in your league HD, because I am a scenery hound. I will download payware scenery like a hound taking to grease bread. And yes, $15.00 is dirt cheap this day and time for Bill's excellent Plum Island. And you know how much I hate a dang tube, save for the "Connie". The "Connie" is something different!

Caz

icarus

January 19th, 2009, 11:23

How can people pay $79.20 for one version of a very much overdone P-51, paying twice as much as FSX alone costs and yet ignore something classic like Plum Island Airport

some customers are not interested on scenery products..i saw many buying only aircrafts. Probably this is the reason also if not understable. Seems more sales are received by utilities, as fs passenger or real enviroment then aircraft then sceneries.

harleyman

January 19th, 2009, 12:12

Lets see here.....Still a scenery nut like some......

For me its all about short hops..The greatness for me is taxying out ,lifting off,watching all my scenery unfold in view,then desceding into more of my added sceneries to land.......

Taking off and landing in default FSX scenery to me is boring and lifeless....Hours in the sky looking at haze and ground is not exciting ......

So...I sit on my wallet like most men do...When i pull it from my back pocket its to buy what I decided was important to me...

I have bought from developers lately just to help their economy some...They are struggeling as most are today....But I still own the stuff....LOL Thats just me though.....

Willy

January 19th, 2009, 13:41

I know one thing, I sure miss Bill Lyons. $12.50 for a couple of different airplanes, scenery and some flights to go with them. And with excellant craftmanship. It was rare when I didn't get one of his releases when it first came out.

CodyValkyrie

January 19th, 2009, 14:17

There is good and bad nowadays with addons. With more features and the ability for the creators to do more now than ever, people not only expect these features but along with that comes longer development cycles. Making an aircraft isn't as hard, as nearly anyone can do it nowadays, but to create something that truly stands out requires a lot more dedication and time.

LonelyplanetXO

January 19th, 2009, 17:41

I believe pricing is less critical than whether or not I really want something. For example, Lionheart's Epic is a model that I was quite price sensitive over. I thought it looked good and it's reasonably priced, so I bit. Great buy! Turns out I love it and fly it regularly. But had it been more expensive, the wallet would have stayed closed. The Wilco Tiltrotor was ludicrously expensive but a model I'd always wanted so I paid a premium. With the support offered by the AH team, it's shaping up as a great model, it's regularly used so a good "investment" from a $/flying hr perspective.
Scenery however is a bit trickier. I had Emma field and loved it, but to be honest I fly 95% of the time in "my patch" being New Zealand and Australia. So if scenery for those regions is offered, I'll definitely buy provided that there's no freeware equivalent, but scenery elsewhere, no matter how good - I'm not a starter.
But what's really put the fly in the ointment for developers is the split in the community between FS9 & FSX. At least 1/3 of the addon buying market have opted to stick with FS9 (including me) and are unlikely to ever adopt FSX. That means either develop for both or face immediately losing over 30% of potential sales. When the entire market is flat
and a developer's faced with twice the work to support both, it's certainly getting tough to make a $ from addons. I suspect those who will do best are the guys who do it as a hobby rather than a full on commercial business. They enjoy the creative process and income is a bonus, so they're less likely to need to directly justify hours against return.

My 2c
LPXO

Helldiver

January 19th, 2009, 19:24

djscoo

January 19th, 2009, 19:37

This is a perplexing thread... To each their own, but as far as I'm concerned whatever someone chooses to buy is their business and theirs alone, it's one of the many joys of capitalism.

CodyValkyrie

January 19th, 2009, 19:43

This is a perplexing thread... To each their own, but as far as I'm concerned whatever someone chooses to buy is their business and theirs alone, it's one of the many joys of capitalism.
... and liberty :D

MCDesigns

January 19th, 2009, 19:48

"For starters, HD is biased since it's where he lives and it's something he knows."
Oh, that's a low blow, McDesigns. Are you sure your SOH Staff? If or not I'm familiar with the scenery involved has nothing to do with my original premise.
An overdone P-51 is no more entitled to ask for that kind of money. I could almost justify it for a darn good P-47,. which during the war got more attention and did a heck of a lot more than the Mustang. Be that as it may, that's a lot of money for one lonely airplane

Sorry HD, it wasn't meant to be mean spirited in any way, just pointing out that since you helped him with the process and it's your airport you have more of a connection with it, nothing more. In re-reading your original post, I guess if you had singled out another airport that was high detail at a reasonable price, I would have made a different connection, more in line with your original premise, sorry for the confusion.

EMatheson

January 19th, 2009, 20:36

I guess it all depends on your definition of "worth the money."
I know I would appreciate freeware alot less if there wasn't payware for my to calibrate my expectations on.

Kiwikat

January 19th, 2009, 20:39

jankees

January 19th, 2009, 22:37

I think he might be referring to the Warbirdsim P-51B/C. Don't know if that is an exact price however. The Flight Leader pack is a bit pricey.

But with the pound being worth just an euro....

SkippyBing

January 20th, 2009, 03:07

An overdone P-51 is no more entitled to ask for that kind of money.

Oh they can ask for it, you don't have to pay it though. I think it's called market forces.
I've bought a few add-on aircraft, but the only scenery has been Ultimate Terrain X Europe which is the area I fly over in real life and now looks more like it in-game, hell I can even follow roads to get places now because they're all there. Would I buy the same for North America? Probably not as I wouldn't notice the difference as much.

jmig

January 20th, 2009, 04:14

I bought Plum Island. Had it on my computer for a month before I installed it into FSX. I flew out of it one time, just to see.

It is really well done and I hope a benchmark for individual airports. However, the reality of it is, unless it is my home airport, I will not fly out of it often.

The only airfields I tend to use frequently are JD's NAS. I like to revisit my youth and fly military aircraft. So, I fly out of military bases. I would gladly pay money for any of JD's air bases.

I also purchased Andrews, AFB and Cape Canervall. I enjoyed flying out of those fields. A realistic looking field to fly out of and into, is much more satisfying to me than a bare concrete runway with an autogen tower.

I would also pay for Alaskan scenery. Bush flying is my second love.

CBris

January 20th, 2009, 04:47

Plum Island is developing a life of it's own. In the absence of Emma Field for FSX, a lot of Emma-ites are now flying on the east coast for a change. The reason is quite simple - it's a simple airfield. Well out of the way of any annoying kero burners - although they are welcome if they bring enough with them to make it out (don't care where they land afterwards as long as it isn't on the plum :caked:)

Thing is, small airfields like these are FRIENDLY in the real world and it turns out very much the same in-sim. You get a very close-knit group of people at these places and this generally reflects in the forums. Not that it stops other folk from buying and flying there solo, but these small airfields are very attractive from the "people" aspect as well.

Cazzie

January 20th, 2009, 05:11

Well, I am going to jump back in on a 180 here. :argue:

I do buy a whole lot of add-on scenery packages, with exception of MegaScenery, I shall no longer get their products, I will not state exactly why (those that know, know, and the others must learn) and it is nothing to do with the outfit.

But on the other hand, I, like Chris B, Huub Vink, Nils, et al, have taken a learned hand to doing skins. Therefore, we will gladly up for a payware aircraft of quality with a Paint Kit. And FSX is another journey indeed for us skinners, bump and specular textures, chromatic layering as Chris has shown. So I have to say that for FSX, I have bought more payware aircraft than for FS9, simply because of the quality of the products (and the darned good price on the Carenados) and the fact that the designers always include a layered Paint Kit. :applause:

Caz

srgalahad

January 20th, 2009, 09:42

Seeing as you are still alive and posting I take it the misses hasn't found out about the new rig? LOL :typing:

Now I'm going to have to restrict my wife's access to the Outhouse. I'm glad she doesn't know that's how she should behave or I wouldn't have the new computer I'm typing on... that she bought. My theory is that if I'm up here simming she doesn't have to complain :argue: about me being downstairs channel-surfing while she wants to watch "Extreme Makeover- Home Edition" :whistle:

In the model train hobby... in this case we're talking pre-release deposits for stuff in the $500-$1,000 MSRP price range. At least in the sim world we have the benefit of reviews and feedback from other users before we decide to buy that deluxe plane or scenery package.Oh I know that pain Tarps- the difference is that they are billed as 'limited run' items so the crowd beats a path to the door while in FS we have the ability to have unlimited duplicates. Still, we do have the same feeding frenzy with some products- and the same gripes after delivery.

I know one thing, I sure miss Bill Lyons. $12.50 for a couple of different airplanes, scenery and some flights to go with them. And with excellant craftmanship. - Willy, who knows.. those days may come again with the changing times. All it takes is a developer with the right concept and desire. I doubt anyone anticipated Bill Lyon's arrival on the scene. It's not a common approach but there are some who still believe it works.

As has been said often enough, we all have our own desires. Some keep searching for the holy grail of the perfect aircraft model with all the features that runs on a low-end system; some want to relive the memories of their personal past; some want to see their local neighbourhood (or new ones) from the air but don't have the ability or budget to do in 'real life'.

The only thing we have to really fret about is that the developers now and in the future don't get the appreciation they deserve and leave for other pursuits, creating a void in one area or another, taking away the choices we have.

Don't forget: those of us who have been around a while have found our niches and often gotten locked into purchasing patterns. However there are still new people joining the FS ranks and it would be a shame if they didn't have the freedom of choice we've come to know and love and :argue: about.

Rob