Prop-Behind-Cloud syndrome

[PRB]

Here's a pic of Stuart Green's beautiful Mitsubishi G4M "Type-1 Lighter" in FSX. I've tried swapping out the prop texture with several that I know fixed this problem with other FS9 ports, but none have any effect here. And this one looks different that others I've seen. Usually it's just the prop blades that disappear behind clouds. In this case it's the entire prop disk that occludes clouds and trees. This is probably a feature of the model and can't be fixed, I'm guessing...

[mjrhealth]

only fix is too change prop alpha so it becomes less visible,

[Roger]

I think this is a different problem Paul. The prop model itself is excluding clouds and probably autogen too. I've not found a solution for this problem. With most prop port-overs darkening the alpha will make the prop blur almost invisible, so it doesn't show in a cloud scape.

[PRB]

I think this is a different problem Paul. The prop model itself is excluding clouds and probably autogen too. I've not found a solution for this problem. With most prop port-overs darkening the alpha will make the prop blur almost invisible, so it doesn't show in a cloud scape.

That's what I was thinking too, but wanted confirmation before I gave up on it. I tried converting the model using Model Converter X, with expected results (virtual Betty Bits all over the desk...) :)

[gman5250]

This is most likely a Z-Buffer setting in the actual prop model. The Z-Buffer setting is not making the determination that the prop is either in front or behind the cloud. This can only be fixed in the model itself.

I'm seeing this in some airplanes in P3D. Possibly something for developers to be aware of and take into consideration with new models. Old models would require a patch to fix this.

[Roger]

That's what I was thinking too, but wanted confirmation before I gave up on it. I tried converting the model using Model Converter X, with expected results (virtual Betty Bits all over the desk...) :)



Be great to see and FsX Native Betty though!

[PRB]

It would indeed!

[LE151]

This is most likely a Z-Buffer setting in the actual prop model. The Z-Buffer setting is not making the determination that the prop is either in front or behind the cloud. This can only be fixed in the model itself.

I'm seeing this in some airplanes in P3D. Possibly something for developers to look take into consideration with new models. Old models would require a patch to fix this.

Hello,
I agree with gman....from what I've read FS9 and FSX use totally different builds for the propdisk. I have the same issues with "Shupsters" A-26, F7F portovers. I have, however, just flown an early gun nose model of Milton's A-26, texture.stinky, if I recall correctly, and after patching some textures for it, for some odd reason the propspin was showing correctly with the cloud and autogen background. I'm not quite sure what happened there or if it was a permanant fix. But I was noticing that there was no invisible prop with cloud background, since this is a "peev" of mine also!!!!! Once I climb back into the A-26 to take her for another spin, I will take a screen shot if the effect is still correct and post it here. Cheers!!!!!

[falcon409]

I've also messed with these with Kazunori Ito's models. With his it is the prop disc in the model that isn't coded to show transparency. It's correct for the model, but when moved into FSX or P3D, transparencies are handled differently and thus the "clouds and autogen" issue. You would need the source code in order to correct it.

[Roger]

Hello,
I agree with gman....from what I've read FS9 and FSX use totally different builds for the propdisk. I have the same issues with "Shupsters" A-26, F7F portovers. I have, however, just flown an early gun nose model of Milton's A-26, texture.stinky, if I recall correctly, and after patching some textures for it, for some odd reason the propspin was showing correctly with the cloud and autogen background. I'm not quite sure what happened there or if it was a permanant fix. But I was noticing that there was no invisible prop with cloud background, since this is a "peev" of mine also!!!!! Once I climb back into the A-26 to take her for another spin, I will take a screen shot if the effect is still correct and post it here. Cheers!!!!!

In our library there are FsX native versions of the A-26.

[Milton Shupe]

In our library there are FsX native versions of the A-26.

You beat me to it Roger. All original A26B/C's converted by Bomber_12th available in library.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links_search.php?action=show&keys=1&keyword=bomber_12th

Also, the F7F-1,3,3N series will be converted to FSX native as soon as the rework project is done.

[Daube]

Has anybody tested this FS9 model in P3Dv2 ?
If I'm not mistaken, the "regular" FS9 models that used to suffer from "props behind the clouds" problems in FSX are in fact showing CORRECTLY in P3Dv2. They even get self shadows and virtual cockpit shadows :)
So I'm wondering if this specific problem "props in front of the clouds" would be solved as well ?

[warchild]

I think i've got the right one.. Its Stuart Green's converted to fs2004/fsx from CS3 I think.. Just woke up.. sorry.. Program is P3Dv2 and i went straight from zip to running..

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2086

[Roger]

I think i've got the right one.. Its Stuart Green's converted to fs2004/fsx from CS3 I think.. Just woke up.. sorry.. Program is P3Dv2 and i went straight from zip to running..

Fantastic Pam! Even cockpit shadows....well Paul that's your answer...get p3D v2:wavey:

[warchild]

Thanks Roger..
And not meaning too open old wounds but P3D is a development platform only. it isnt made to be enjoyed. You have to be a developer.. However, according to Lockheeds license agreement which I post here..

Anyone can work on becoming a Prepar3D® Developer. No matter if you are a seasoned developer, or just starting out, we want to encourage you to develop for Prepar3D.

Anyone

So get on out there and ""develop"" :;chuckles::

[PRB]

But, Pam said: "... Its Stuart Green's converted to fs2004/fsx from ..." Did somebody do a conversion of this plane for FSX? I need to find that one first. That would be good news!

EDIT: Well I found one on fs-freeware.net that claims to be a an FSX conversion, but the "prop disk occlusion of clouds and trees" was not fixed. I could live with the props behind clouds, but the whole disk standing out like that makes it a "non-player". Guess I have to get P3D!

[warchild]

Here you go Paul.. no finding needed :)..

http://www.fs-freeware.net/downloads/viewdownload/13-military-aircraft/1468-fsx-mitsubishi-betty-bomber

it was "upgraded" to Fs2004/fsx by AF Scrub. I dont know when it was upgraded though..

[PRB]

Thanks Pam! That's the one I found too (see edit prom previous post).

[warchild]

hehehe.. welcome to the P3D aspiring developers lounge.

[Roger]

Yep I just tried it too with the same prop issue and I think it may have been gauges that were fixed. Interestingly in Dx10 it was almost totally transparent and I used the Dx10 fixer tool box and converted the 8bit textures so now I could see the aircraft but the prop issue wasn't solved.

[tommieboy]

Has anybody tested this FS9 model in P3Dv2 ?
If I'm not mistaken, the "regular" FS9 models that used to suffer from "props behind the clouds" problems in FSX are in fact showing CORRECTLY in P3Dv2....

I just read this past week that this may in fact be on a plane to plane basis depending on how the prop was modeled, as some of the FS9 models are indeed showing up with the prop / cloud issue in P3Dv2. I have been trying to track down that thread / post, but it may have been on another site. I'll keep looking. What a bummer, if this is indeed true, as my ears did perk up when I originally heard that P3Dv2 solved this issue for the FS9 aircraft.

Tommy

[LE151]

You beat me to it Roger. All original A26B/C's converted by Bomber_12th available in library.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links_search.php?action=show&keys=1&keyword=bomber_12th

Also, the F7F-1,3,3N series will be converted to FSX native as soon as the rework project is done.


Yes Sir Mr. Shupe,

But I must be missing something. Is the new FSX native model propspin supposed to show against cloud background? Here are my examples from today flying your awsome A-26. The first is "Stinky" then "Airfix". With "Stinky" you can definately see the propspin with cloud backdrop.....but with "Airfix" the propspin is invisible against the clouds.

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2101
2102

[Roger]

LE151 in your shots I can see the prop disk in front of the clouds where it should be. The prop alpha is pretty dark so it's relatively faint.

[LE151]

LE151 in your shots I can see the prop disk in front of the clouds where it should be. The prop alpha is pretty dark so it's relatively faint.


Yes Sir,
I am not sure which propspin or texture is making the difference. It is totally transparent in the "Airfix" texture......but with the "Stinky" texture, the propspin shows correctly against the clouds. Is it the propspin texture or something else??

[Desert Rat]

With FS9 models, transparencies by material should be at the bottom of the parts list in the modelling hierarchy, ie. last. If they are not, other parts appear in front of them. This is an issue in FS9 also, just not noticed by many people, you need to look closely to try and see a difference between, say, the wing that is behind and not behind the canopy glass. I'mnot sure how incorrectly ordered parts would manifest in FSX, but may result in parts becoming invisible? Fix would be from source or backwards engineering through MdlConX or possibly SCASM/hex editing.

If you have a prop disc that is fully opaque and uses textures for transparency, to find out, rename the texture folder sothe model shows 'naked' in sim, ie. base materials show. with engines started you'll see if the disc is opaque. If it is there may be a fix. This ultimately depends on if the solid disc uses it's own material or shares a material with other parts. If you want to make it transparent, you don't want other parts affected, transparent wings, etc.

The way I know of is to use mdlMat by Martin Wright, ACM (or other model viewer that allows different anim states) and notepad (or paper & pen). Using mdlmat you can change colour and transparency of each material in turn in the model (FS9), say to solid bright pink (as it is very seldom used by modellers), load the bare solid model in ACM, look for pink bits, revert them back to original properties (hence notepad) then move on to the next material, so on and so forth, until you find your solid disc, if it is then the only part solid pink, your in luck, revert the colour, add transparency and bingo. If other parts are affected, your only choice is backwards engineering, sorry.

Jamie

[LE151]

With FS9 models, transparencies by material should be at the bottom of the parts list in the modelling hierarchy, ie. last. If they are not, other parts appear in front of them. This is an issue in FS9 also, just not noticed by many people, you need to look closely to try and see a difference between, say, the wing that is behind and not behind the canopy glass. I'mnot sure how incorrectly ordered parts would manifest in FSX, but may result in parts becoming invisible? Fix would be from source or backwards engineering through MdlConX or possibly SCASM/hex editing.

If you have a prop disc that is fully opaque and uses textures for transparency, to find out, rename the texture folder sothe model shows 'naked' in sim, ie. base materials show. with engines started you'll see if the disc is opaque. If it is there may be a fix. This ultimately depends on if the solid disc uses it's own material or shares a material with other parts. If you want to make it transparent, you don't want other parts affected, transparent wings, etc.

The way I know of is to use mdlMat by Martin Wright, ACM (or other model viewer that allows different anim states) and notepad (or paper & pen). Using mdlmat you can change colour and transparency of each material in turn in the model (FS9), say to solid bright pink (as it is very seldom used by modellers), load the bare solid model in ACM, look for pink bits, revert them back to original properties (hence notepad) then move on to the next material, so on and so forth, until you find your solid disc, if it is then the only part solid pink, your in luck, revert the colour, add transparency and bingo. If other parts are affected, your only choice is backwards engineering, sorry.

Jamie


Thanks Jamie.......I think?!?!??!
:dejection:

[Milton Shupe]

This is most likely a Z-Buffer setting in the actual prop model. The Z-Buffer setting is not making the determination that the prop is either in front or behind the cloud. This can only be fixed in the model itself.

I'm seeing this in some airplanes in P3D. Possibly something for developers to be aware of and take into consideration with new models. Old models would require a patch to fix this.

Just FYI, I tested using ZBias_ on the FSX portover xp47h in FSX and it did not correct the problem. :dizzy: Tried both the material name change as well as the texture name change and both. I usually run my prop material at 7% opaque and use the alpha to tweak transparency. I did not try 100% opaque using ZBias but will do so tomorrow.

[mikezola]

Happy New Year, all...

Just as Falcon409 did, I've experimented on some of Ito-San's aircraft and others as I ported them over to FSX- I used MdlMat to set the alpha of the prop disc to a value of 1 or 2. This seems to minimize, but not totally fix, the prop disc anomaly to a point where it's not very noticeable. For some reason, setting it to 0 makes it worse. The degree of success I've had depends on the model in question...

-Mike Z.

[expat]

Any chance of you experts having a look at Eric Dante's "JoJo" Twin Bonanza FS9 port? It really is quite nice in FSX except for the solid prop disks. Even if these can be made almost invisible that would make it more flyable.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?84380-this-is-just-sexy/page2