Lee Archer Talks About Tuskegee Squad Colors

[Panther_99FS]

Listen closely when he describes the squadron wing colors....."hmmm..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahuWjukc53c

[Skyhawk_310R]

Not sure if you meant anything more with the "hmmmm" observation. His description was matter of fact and accurate. Maybe I'm being victimized by knowing of them. I already knew what the colors meant and even the speed and weight advantages of no longer painting the aircraft olive drab.

Ken

[Panther_99FS]

Ken,
He said trim tab colors and wing stripe colors differentiated squadrons.

He went further on to state that one had white trim tabs and white stripes on the wing, another had a black trim tab with black stripes on the wing. He said his squadron, the 302nd had a yellow trim tab with yellow stripes on the wing.

Yet every P-51 Tuskegee rendition that I've seen has yellow wing stripes - hence me saying "Hmmm...."

[Skyhawk_310R]

Ken,
He said trim tab colors and wing stripe colors differentiated squadrons.

He went further on to state that one had white trim tabs and white stripes on the wing, another had a black trim tab with black stripes on the wing. He said his squadron, the 302nd had a yellow trim tab with yellow stripes on the wing.

Yet every P-51 Tuskegee rendition that I've seen has yellow wing stripes - hence me saying "Hmmm...."

Ah, I see now your reason. I knew about the squadron sub-markings so that's why I failed to understand. I think the reason you see the predominance of yellow sub-marks is from the desire to pay respects to Archer himself. But, also a lot of it is just plain ole poor research.

The prime purpose was the same as for the color marks on the bombers, to assist fighters and bombers making correct rendezvous. One can imagine the gross confusion if two fighter units rendezvoused with the same bomber unit -- it would leave another unit unescorted. Of course, as the "stay with the bombers" order was eliminated under orders of Jimmy Doolittle, who favored the highly successful, "find them and kill them" order, the need for the markings went away and after that became a simple case of unit pride. The squadron sub-marks could be smaller since they just assisted in squadrons reforming and most of the time fighters separated stayed that way and they just flew home in two-ship or even single ship units. In a P-51, such a situation wasn't as dangerous because they could fly higher and faster than anything except the Me-262's and to a certain extent the Dora-9, though the Dora-9 was really more of an even match, which means interception is doubtful.

The more interesting background on why the Tuskegee Airmen became so beloved by the bombers crews is a direct result of the racism of the era, but in a very interesting manner. You see, General Davis knew what his men were up against, and knew their detractors would leap on bomber losses to use against them. So, for these airmen, preventing the loss of bombers was vastly more important to them than racking up fighter kills even though destroying the Luftwaffe by all means available ended up saving the bombers.

Now, if you are in the bombers, you want to see those fighters, and no one can disagree with that!

So, the fact that the Tuskegee Airmen never left the bombers was absolutely loved by the bomber crews, who regarded them as something truly special, and likely never understood the complex array of racial prejudices that were the root of why they never left! General Davis was certainly tactically wise enough to know his men could have inflicted more harm to the Luftwaffe by adopting the same loose protection rules the other fighter units eagerly adopted, and sometimes abused frankly. But, they were up against a most unfair situation and made the best calculation they could.

Ken

[Bomber_12th]

As I understand it, within the 15th AF, all of the fighters were required to have yellow identification stripes on the wings and horizontal stabilizers, following the same general idea as the white, and later the black stripes that were applied to Mustangs (and P-47's) operating from England. These were identification markings to show that these aircraft were friendlies. This aspect of the 15th AF fighter markings couldn't be changed. The Fighter Groups of the 15th AF were provided red and yellow paint, and outside of applying the yellow stripes to the wings and tail surfaces, it was up to each Fighter Group how they would use those colors for nose and tail markings to separate one another apart (resulting in either painting over or around the yellow stripes on the horizontal stabilizers). What Archer was recalling from memory (not always good when it comes to historical accuracy), was not the wing stripes, but rather the 'nose band'. The 302nd of course had yellow trim tabs and often used a combination of yellow and red in its nose band. The 100th FS had blue trim tabs, and usually either had a blue/white diamond nose band or a solid blue nose band. The 301st FS had white trim tabs and had just a solid red nose band. In some cases, the rudder trim tab was the only one that was painted in the squadron colors. With all of these squadrons, they had the, standard 15th AF, yellow wing stripes.

Also, I don't know which group Archer was referring to when he mentioned white tails - I think he was recalling the 52nd FG, which had all yellow tails. Of the 15th AF Mustang Groups besides the 332nd, there was the 52nd FG with all yellow tails, the 31st FG with 'candy stripe' tails, and the 325th FG with checkerboard tails. Painting so much of the tail in the the Group's color(s) was also not unique to the 332nd, as you can see with the other Groups of the 15th AF.

Here's one of my favorite wartime Mustang photos, showing the CO's of each of the four Fighter Groups of the 15th AF flying together, with their individual mounts:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/NorthAmericanP-51MustangsFightersOfVariousFighterGroupsOfThe15ThA fAreShownInAPracticeFormationOverTheAlpsP-51SEscortHeavyBom_zps69c21633.jpg~original (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Bomber_12th/media/NorthAmericanP-51MustangsFightersOfVariousFighterGroupsOfThe15ThA fAreShownInAPracticeFormationOverTheAlpsP-51SEscortHeavyBom_zps69c21633.jpg.html)

[Panther_99FS]

What Archer was recalling from memory (not always good when it comes to historical accuracy), was not the wing stripes, but rather the 'nose band'.

John,
Yep - I know about the nose band colors but IMHO, Archer was damn sharp until the day he passed. I'm still not 100% convinced.

That being said, this picture does appear to dispute Archer....

92453

[Skyhawk_310R]

No, he was right. There are pictures of the Mustangs they flew (the razorbacks if I recall correctly) that show yellow band stripes on the tips of the wings, top and bottom. I recall they were about two feet inboard from the wing tips themselves and were about a foot wide.

Then again, it wasn't as if this stuff was picture perfect in consistency and it is also true that aircraft got exchanged between squadrons to fill ad-hoc gaps, and it would take time to repaint them assuming the assignment change was even permanent.

Ken

Update: they yellow bands on the wings were painted about 6 feet inside the wing tips. But, having gone back and checked, I cannot see anything Archer said that was incorrect. The trim tab he spoke of was the rudder trim tab as I have not recalled seeing aileron trim tabs so painted. And he was correct about the wing bands and rudder trim tabs on his squadron's aircraft being yellow.

[Panther_99FS]

The sad thing overall is that there are very few WW-II pictures in existence of them