Cause for Alarm?

[falcon409]

Another of our first rate freeware developers is leaving. Should we be asking why or is it just a normal part of ebb and flow of things? Tim Conrad has gone on to seek new frontiers and I doubt he'll be back. . .Robert is moving on to other ventures and there have been others who initially were producing freeware models who then moved to doing some payware and then vanished, more or less. I'm like most here I guess. . .if it isn't visible in the Forums, then I'm ignorant of any goings on behind the scenes. I know some threads have gotten out of hand recently and were closed because of it. . .but that's happened before and usually all parties eventually come to some agreement and life goes on.

Some concern was raised in Roberts thread from a long-time member who felt that maybe SOH was self-destructing, slowly but steadily. . .and that would be a concern for me and many others who call this Forum "Home". So, without getting off track, without this becoming a volatile stomping ground. . . .what is your opinion. How do you see the decline of some of our best freeware folks and is that (or should that even be) a concern that should be addressed. Just wondering out loud here.:salute:

[expat]

Having just landed one of my favorite GA planes at your remarkable Block Island State Airport scenery Ed I have to say freeware at the SOH is alive and well! You did a great job and it is very easy on frames.

[heywooood]

Another of our first rate freeware developers is leaving. Should we be asking why or is it just a normal part of ebb and flow of things? Tim Conrad has gone on to seek new frontiers and I doubt he'll be back. . .Robert is moving on to other ventures and there have been others who initially were producing freeware models who then moved to doing some payware and then vanished, more or less. I'm like most here I guess. . .if it isn't visible in the Forums, then I'm ignorant of any goings on behind the scenes. I know some threads have gotten out of hand recently and were closed because of it. . .but that's happened before and usually all parties eventually come to some agreement and life goes on.

Some concern was raised in Roberts thread from a long-time member who felt that maybe SOH was self-destructing, slowly but steadily. . .and that would be a concern for me and many others who call this Forum "Home". So, without getting off track, without this becoming a volatile stomping ground. . . .what is your opinion. How do you see the decline of some of our best freeware folks and is that (or should that even be) a concern that should be addressed. Just wondering out loud here.:salute:

I agree in that there appears to be a trend of late WRT some long time freeware developers and some of our payware contributors too, bidding this Forum adieu and taking a less involved roll or leaving altogether..
Some of it could be attributed to 'burn out' where maybe its been a long time and its time for a change of pace or scenery or both...
Some of it could be due to some callousness or peevish forum posts - but as you say - we've seen that before
I'm newer here than many among the old guard, but even in the time I have been here I would say that this board is well moderated and does tend to support most if not all of the developers who participate here, and leans that way more when there IS a dispute between a non developer forum poster and a developer - not saying thats good or bad either way..just what I have noticed.
SOH staff likes the Developer relationships it has and I think its important to have that interaction available to read from and better understand how developers work and what they work on and why...
I hope this recent migration is due more to the individuals own reasons, and not due to a perceived lack of respect among the general community - I don't think there is a lack of respect...more like a lack of understanding about all the work and research and time and effort and (for any artist) soul or heart - that goes into every piece of work ever created for the enjoyment of others..be it for free - or for pay...regardless - these people work very hard and sometimes the lack of consideration for that effort is offensive - or off putting at least...just my tuppence - carry on then

[stovall]

As moderator of this forum I feel it important to help folks know and understand my feeling about recent events. The migration of developers from SOH is in each case is an individual issue. Some are personal issues with administrators and some are issues and frustrations of their own. From where I stand SOH is here to serve the community, bring together the best of our hobby and treat everyone the same. We will continue to do that. It is my sincere hope that those that have elected to not post here reconsider their decision and again take part with what I consider the best folks in flight simulation.

With all that said, SOH at times must make decisions that are not popular with individuals. These decisions are difficult and made only for the good of SOH. All SOH leaders work very hard in the best interest of all of us.

[TheGrunt]

If there is something to get concerned, it is IMO nothing special going on here. I mean, if we are losing enthusiastic (freeware) devs or users in generally, the reason is just in the sims itself. Avsim demographics polls have shown that at least the type of sims that are popular in these forums (civilian sims) don't seem pull younger, new people in and simmer community is getting older. Now, the natural consequence of all this is that while it is completely normal IMO that people's interests change and they shift focus to somewhere else for any reasons there may be, it is difficult for the community to get new dedicted people to replace those who left. I think that's why these departures feel somewhat exceptional and as community freeware devs are quite rare breed all together of the whole simming population, we see these departures easily and they feel truly a loss, which in our situation they of course are.

[heywooood]

apologies to Stovall and any other staff as in review, it looks like I was speaking for you - when in fact it was only my own opinion as to how developers are treated by staff here...

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread so far -
I wonder if any of the developers who have moved on but still lurk or occasionally look in will add to the discussion..

[MCDesigns]

As moderator of this forum I feel it important to help folks know and understand my feeling about recent events. The migration of developers from SOH is in each case is an individual issue. Some are personal issues with administrators and some are issues and frustrations of their own. From where I stand SOH is here to serve the community, bring together the best of our hobby and treat everyone the same. We will continue to do that. It is my sincere hope that those that have elected to not post here reconsider their decision and again take part with what I consider the best folks in flight simulation.

With all that said, SOH at times must make decisions that are not popular with individuals. These decisions are difficult and made only for the good of SOH. All SOH leaders work very hard in the best interest of all of us.

Well stated Tom, you can't please everyone all the time and no matter how fair you think you are being someone will disagree. When I was a mod there were calls I wanted to make and didn't due to what other mods felt and there were calls I made at times that were not popular with some.

Flight Simulation is a tough community, there are many age groups, frustrations with each sim version, different levels of expectations and with compatibility issues, some users tend to get a little outspoken for lack of a better term.

My rule of thumb, I do what I do with FS to please myself, if others enjoy it, that is a bonus and if I can help someone along the way, another bonus.

I am sorry to see Robert go, I always liked him and thought highly of him as a person and developer, but you gotta do what you feel is best for yourself. Life has taken me away from FS a few times, but I find it quite enjoyable when I get the chance to come back to it.

As Tom Bodett says, "We'll leave the light on for ya!"

[Roger]

Moderation is one heck of a difficult job with a forum like this, for many of the reasons stated above. Tom does a great job and has our support 100%. Sometimes admin decisions have to made when threads are closed and inevitably don't please all the people all of the time. With payware developers the rivalries that have occured have meant that some have left, often because we won't take sides but that's the way the SOH has run forever along with no advertising...we try to be impartial. Recently I was attacked for closing a thread that cast doubt on the legitimacy of members using that sim. We support it and have a forum for it...the thread had to close.
That's all I'm prepared to say on the matter so please don't ask for more detail as none will be forthcoming.

Roger.

[hairyspin]

I'd like to put another aspect to this - especially since Robert hasn't publicly given his reasons. FS developing is a really full-on job, be it freeware or especially payware. Learning the processes and tools takes a heck of a long time and sometimes we have to decide browse the forums or work on that masterpiece again tonight? Or does the modeler limit his forum haunting to a few sites, maybe just one, so as to keep time free for developing? That's a perfectly fair decision.

Whatever his reasons - and I don't pretend to know - I wish Robert well and every success with the P-61 when he can get to it again.

[trucker17]

I feel that a lot of has to do with becoming burned out on doing the same thing all the time......
I have done this as well, with some of my sceneries and repaints.....I have worked on a scenery and ran out of ideas to improve on it, just to go back later and add updates to them, or even recreate the scenery from scratch again.....
If they leave I feel that that to them it is most likely their time to move on.....I bid these designers, builders and painters a sad farewell and hope to one day see their works show up again.....
I know these people do the very best they can to give us a nice and close representation of the scenery, aircraft or paint that they produce.....Granted FSX wont be the same without them. And that is our loss.....

[nio]

I do not detect any signs of SOH being in any sort of decline. In my estimation it is in rude health and long may it remain so.

I have been a quiet member of SOH for many years.

It has always appeared to me to be unique by comparison with other sites. It is a place which I have chosen to visit on average just shy of every day since I joined because my enthusiasm for how it extends and informs my hobby is constantly stirred by what I read and learn here.

I have watched and seen how members readily share thier skills and amazing work products in freely given add ons, be it scenery or aircraft or objectss . I have been given valuable information by purchasers and developers about new products. I read interesting views from mermbers around the globe

In my opinion we should not regard the egress of particular developers or, for that matter, individual members who have left of their own volition as an indicator of anythng to concern us here.It is always a matter of regret when people leave and I am sure I speak for many whenI say I hope they will return.

The more of us there are, the better SOH can work for us all.

Thank you to the Moderators for keeping the place honest. I doubt their pay cheque for the services they provide would cover a cup of coffee.

Sorry if this edges off topic.

Best

nio

[WarHorse47]

I tend to agree with nio. I see no signs of any decline at SOH and no cause for alarm. If anything its evolution.

SOH is based around a hobby of flight simulation, one of many that hobbies that I have. Consequently, I do not take it too seriously but see it as an escape from reality. There are time I get bored with it and seldom open FSX, and there are times I get immersed and fly for hours. I assume that same ebb and tide in interest occurs with developers.

We have a lot of talented people here, and a lot of members who take this hobby very seriously. The pinnacle of that effect are those who make a living off of creating payware for the hobby. Therefore, I can understand where freeware developers can either get tired of participating or wanting to move into the payware field. One way or another you still have to provide food for the table. It can be a thankless task for some.

I think we all have to recognize that all of us at SOH are but a speck of sand on the beach. Many people are unaware of the flight simulation hobby, and even fewer people contribute to supporting the hobby. As long as we can keep FSX (and FS9 and other flight sims) working under these new OS, there will always be someone willing to step forward and contribute.

[Daveroo]

ok..i have to speak up here.....as some of you know..some of you dont..this isnt an excuse for bad behavior ,rather and explanation of what i felt this morning when i saw Roberts post...i suffer from depression and at times its debilitating to the point i dont want to wake up the next day ( i think you may know what i mean,and thats hard to admit) and when i read Roberts post i went "black" immediately,and all "I" could see was doom and gloom for SOH....i need to just stop posting stuff at those times and focus on what i know is good for me....like what im going to go post in a second here...

so if i started something i shouldnt have...i apologize...Dave

[Roger]

ok..i have to speak up here.....as some of you know..some of you dont..this isnt an excuse for bad behavior ,rather and explanation of what i felt this morning when i saw Roberts post...i suffer from depression and at times its debilitating to the point i dont want to wake up the next day ( i think you may know what i mean,and thats hard to admit) and when i read Roberts post i went "black" immediately,and all "I" could see was doom and gloom for SOH....i need to just stop posting stuff at those times and focus on what i know is good for me....like what im going to go post in a second here...

so if i started something i shouldnt have...i apologize...Dave

Dave,
It's always a shame when someone decides to leave, for whatever reason but it's not your fault if you post your concerns. There are so many good people here that nothing will happen to your favorite forum.

Take care,

Roger.

[stovall]

Tom Stovall echos Rogers comment. Dave, you are a star player here and posting concerns is just what people in this forum do. People here are a great bunch that actually become family. We are definitely alive and well. We intend to stay that way.

[Kiwikat]

I don't feel SOH is in decline, but I do feel the hobby is in decline. Whether they're popular or not, Microsoft's departure from FS was a huge deal. We've never had a sim as long as we've had FSX. I am honestly surprised there's as many active long-timers as there are. The decrease in freeware doesn't bother me at all. It takes a team of paid developers to put out the cream of the crop addons. With such a massive selection of aircraft, I find myself only flying the best. Fortunately that opens up a whole bunch of repainting opportunities for the huge number of talented artists we have here.

I've had my fair share of disagreements and arguments with several members and moderators here over the years. When I first started posting here I was a sophomore or junior in high school (first account). Over 7-8 years I've made over 4,000 posts, made several acquaintances and friends, and even got assistance with my college homework (thanks Ted! :cool:). I can't help but call this place my home on the Internet.

There's certainly a lot of old faces that I'd like to see again. Nothin' to do but wish everyone well in their endeavors, whatever they decide to do. If they pay another visit someday, we'll welcome them back like they never left.

I'm hoping someday my enthusiasm and dedication will pay off and I'll be able to join the SOH mod team. I think my differing opinions and perspectives would be a welcome change/addition to the staff. If not, I'll continue to do my job and be a pain in everyone's behind. :icon_lol: :salute:

[heywooood]

I drive by Gillespie Field practically everyday. As a salesrep, El Cajon is part of my territory - and I see a Thorp sometimes sitting out behind one of the hangars off Bradley street - dunno if it is the one that belongs to you and your Pops
Robert, but I see it there and think "I might know that guy" - its a funny world we live in.
I don't have any close friends that are flight sim enthusiasts - no one really to talk FSX with in general conversation...its all about the people on these boards. If I am not flying in FSX, but I have free time, I'm here reading what other people who share the interest have to say - or talking to the people who make 3D models of the aircraft that I have loved since I was a kid...or looking at those stunning screenshots (Zolt, TuFun Bomber12th, jankees - terrific shots every time, they ALL are) and wondering like Homer J...why doesn't MY barbeque look like that? lol

anyway - I ramble but the point is - there is no point. everyone is free to come and go as they please - the world keeps turning no matter what we do so we might as well make the best of it.
life tastes better through a grin as my ol' Gramps used to say

wouldn't you know I posted this in the wrong thread - lol

[txnetcop]

SOH will decline only if we let it decline. Life issues prevent many from staying the course full-time, disagreements can cause some deep disruptions, but the forum is what we all make it. Everything we need to enjoy what we love best is right here for us if choose to enjoy it and be helpful to others as well who also want to enjoy what we have. There are also friendships and fellowship that are hard to replace anywhere else. Don't give up the ship so easily as there is a lot of life left in our flight-simming community! You're welcome Kiwikat. I hope to see you doing some modding here also:applause:
Ted

[trucker17]

SOH will decline only if we let it decline. Life issues prevent many from staying the course full-time, disagreements can cause some deep disruptions, but the forum is what we all make it. Everything we need to enjoy what we love best is right here for us if choose to enjoy it and be helpful to others as well who also want to enjoy what we have. There are also friendships and fellowship that are hard to replace anywhere else. Don't give up the ship so easily as there is a lot of life left in our flight-simming community! You're welcome Kiwikat. I hope to see you doing some modding here also:applause:
Ted

So true.....The staff of SOH get very little recognition for the work they put into keeping this site up and running......
I have some friends here on the site, and I am thankful for them....And some of these friends are the staff members, and i'm also very thankful for their friendship.....
As members its up to us to make this site what it is.....maybe sometimes our humor is dry, sometimes its childish. We come from all races, and from all over the world.....the staff moderates and tries their best to keep everything on an even keel.....
Were a family made up of all Nationalities, and all cultures....A lot of the time we are a loving family, sometimes were a dysfunctional family....But we are all still family, and this is our home....How ever we make it......

[anthony31]

][/FONT]The decrease in freeware doesn't bother me at all. It takes a team of paid developers to put out the cream of the crop addons.

But it should worry you even if you never download a freeware thing in your life.

FSX is 7 years old now. For a game that is 7 years old to still keep players playing means that the players constantly need new content (ie planes and scenery) to keep things interesting.

Without new content the game would get boring and people stop playing FSX.

Right now the number of people leaving FSX exceeds the small number taking it up (maybe those people finally switching from FS9).

This means that as each year passes there is a smaller and smaller market for payware developers to sell to (and it gets harder to sell another plane to someone who already has a hangar full of payware addons, "Do I really need another 737?"). A smaller market means less income for payware developers which will lead to payware developers leaving which will lead to less output which will lead to bored customers which will lead to more people leaving FSX which will lead to a smaller market and so on and so forth until the market is so small that making payware is just not possible to justify.

Which is where freeware comes in. New shiny stuff to keep customers interested in FSX and it's free so no need to worry about the credit card which you can save for that special payware addon. Keeps people involved in FSX a bit longer which helps keeps the critical mass of customers which helps to make it financially possible to have payware.

[Naismith]

I wonder with all this doom and gloom, are there figures to compare over the years for the people visiting Avsim , FlightSim, Simviation. That would be a true barometer of any decline in interest.

Another thing to consider is P3D. Has anyone ever seen an ad or review for P3D other than within our small community? Can't say I've ever seen mention.

[fxsttcb]

Hit the Mute button. :icon_lol:
Decline? I really don't believe so. Like another member posted "Ebb and Tide" seems to explain it.
Losing a long time contributer does tend to give us pause. Some damn near bring tears.

We had a similar discussion over at flightsim a few months back.
One member posted this in reference to the flightsim.com forum as a whole:

So as far as health.... I think it's on the critical list and wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Death Certificate issued sometime soon.
This is an excerpt from Nels(flightsim.com owner) response:

Rubbish...The hobby is in period of transition, due to Microsoft's leaving. However, we still get around 200 new people signing up as FlightSim.Com members every day!
Think about that...1400 new people a week, 6000 new people a month. Large numbers of people are still interested and new people keep discovering us.
In the Newcomers forum over at flightsim, I see 15-20 folks a week asking "How do I install FSX?", "How does this work", "How do I tweak that".
Some are brand new to simming, others are returning after extended absences, and installing FSX for the first time.
Icky could probably confirm similar stats here. Dunno...Don

[Odie]

I haven't really flown FS2004 or FSX in quite a while...real life seems to get in the way; but I always check SOH. Know why? For the community. Although I don't fly often, I check to see
what others are doing and what's on the radar. SOH has always been more than just a "resource" site, it's family.

[warchild]

Daveroo. Dont ypu dare go anywhere ( and you know what i mean ).. I need you. Yes, me, sorcerress, Warchild, pam, that thing in the corner that no one knows what the hell it is but it makes planes fly nice ME.. robert didnt leave just because of SOH.. I didnt leave just because of SOH ( nope, i'm not really here. just lookin through the windows of my old home hoping everyone is ok ).

The thing is, SOH isnt in decline. FSX has been declining. The quality expecttions have also been raised so high that many artists just give up. I am one who helped raise them. Its what we all wanted. Theres going to be tons of us who will always be here, and tons of us like me, always poking their heads out of the woodwork every now and then to say Hi. SOH HAS changed since i was a moderator here. Some would say for the better, some wouldnt, but change is inevitable and should be grasped with enthusiasm ( this coming from a taurus who gets upset when the person doing my shopping gets the wrong dish soap ). At its heart SOH will always be new, and always be the same. In some ways it hasnt changed a bit since it first opened its doors.. The community has changed, the expectations have changed, but soh remains the same..

the events of the decline in popularity of FSX are to be expected. Yes, its scary, even depressing at times, but its natural and should cause no more worry than a single cloud in an otherwise bright blue sky..

Pam

[Obie311]

Since SOH has become my defacto FlightSim roost, I have to chime in here.

There is an ebb and flow to life. Change is inevitable. People face personal challenges we are scarcely aware of. The mods here do a go job walking the tightrope of fair, effective moderation. Is it always to my liking? Not necessarily, but I respect the job that they do.

As civilization becomes more complex and hectic, more civility and respect is needed, not less.

Obie

[Bjoern]

On a happier note, I've spent quite a few hours yesterday identifying the cause and devising a solution for a long existing problem with the 737's autopilot (which became an outright usability killer in FSX). If I can pull the solution off without hitches, I might just ride the wave and finally finish that bloody manual which should make things easier for people to get into the TinMouse's systems.
After that, it's just cosmetic work and some wrap-up before you guys and the FS9ers will have yet another 737 to play with. But this one is for free.

So there is still some freeware development going on as exemplified by the paragraph above, but there remains one problem: Finding a target audience.


It seems that MSFS forums have adopted and cemented certain shticks, thanks to which you're very prone to simply just flicker up and then get blown out by all the shouting there is done about whatever new thing there is floating that forum's boat. If you don't believe me, just look at the subjects of the most popular threads or subjects in one of these.
It's hard to fit into one of these forums when your stuff will get litle attention because it's not simulated to the level of xyz, because it doesn't have pistons and props, because it isn't AI, because it isn't user-friendly to install and operate, because it isn't payware, because it isn't from a certain country, because it isn't for a certain flight sim version, because it doesn't incorporate innovative modeling, because etc...
It's off-putting, as a freeware dev's ego lives off nice words and tributes in whatever form. And these things are quite hard to come by nowadays without frequenting just about every forum everywhere to scrape up a bit of kudos and - more valuably: feedback - here and there. This makes PR rather time-consuming. And time is very valuable (and can be spent on other things).

Generally speaking though, I guess there's a point where making stuff for yourself to share with others just doesn't cut it anymore because your personally most needed models have been done and outside motivation to go on isn't just coming in anymore. One option would be going payware to avoid letting any acquired skills go to waste and using money for motivation and the other option is simply throwing the towel for now or longer.

In the latter case, however, I have one request to any developer thinking about abandoning their work:
Clean up your source files a bit and upload them somewhere. It would make things way, way, WAY easier for anyone else willing to complete or continue your legacy.
If you need an example at hand, consider Erick Cantu. Thanks to his public source files, MSFS got three basically new aircraft (737-200, DC-10, L-1011)!



Tl;dr: No one mentioned Tom Ruth.

[Daveroo]

well,i love the idea of a 737 coming,i hate to say i like the idea of it being freeware cause i dont want to come off as a cheap-o..but i want one badly...and i dont care for the "stock" FSX planes..is that bad of me?..dont know..and a DC-10?......wow...id love to see that with a airtanker version of the air tanker 10 companies..T-910,T-911( which was flying over my house all afternoon yesterday and i didnt get one picture)