Freeware Development and Rivet Counters

[GarryJSmith]

Unfortunately since the beginning of my association with FlightSim and graphics, back in 1998, I have seen the rivet counters hammer freeware developers with their expectations of perfection (in their eyes). I have seen many painters, model makers, and scenery designers come and go and a large volume ultimately give up due to the public floggings in forums by these rivet counters.

Very rarely do the FREEWARE user even bother to acknowledge or appreciate the fact that they are getting others peoples hard efforts for FREE. There is an almost a pervasive outlook in the simming community that we are ENTITLED to get FREE stuff and ENTITLED to critique or even slander those that give us the free stuff.

Basically we seem to have lost the concept of FREEWARE being a PRIVILAGE that it is shared with us.

Very very rare to ever see - "WOW - thanks mate for sharing this with me" from the simming community. Yes, sometimes, what some could class as junk, is published - but that junk is often many hard hours of slogging with unfamiliar tools, learning and effort and often some personal financial costs by the developer and he/she wants to share that time and effort with others. Knock or critique too hard and the enthusiasm disappears and we possible loose another budding developer.

This Rivet Counter mindset and the loss of the concept of a PRIVILAGE that freeware is being shared with us is harming our most precious simming resource. Imagine simming with only payware products - the contribution of freeware developers have kept simming alive since its inception - many sites exist only because of the volume of freeware that is published by amateur developers and shared with us because they choose to do so.

There is a fine line between critique and guidance - many developers appreciate guidance but disdain critiques that are unwarranted, ignorant, or downright malicious in content.

In a nutshell, lets show some appreciation every now and again for what we get for free from a plethora of developers - encourage the budding developer - everyone starts somewhere on the quality scale and improves with guidance and appreciation - all we have to do is put in a little time for constructive feedback and support and we all win.

And finally to the Rivet Counters - if you don't like it - just don't use it - or even better - do a better rendition yourself and share it with us.

[skyhawka4m]

hmmmm.....did I miss something?

As to freeware.....I have seen numerous freeware items put out that were nice in their own accord....but then a talented paint such as Bomber12th gets his mitts on it and all of a sudden its a new plane. I for one feel that those who put out freeware should be thanks over and over again, and those painters, like Bomber12th who bring new life to an old model....should be thanked also for all the hard work and time it took to put new life into an older project.

[gaucho_59]

Unfortunately since the beginning of my association with FlightSim and graphics, back in 1998, I have seen the rivet counters hammer freeware developers with their expectations of perfection (in their eyes). I have seen many painters, model makers, and scenery designers come and go and a large volume ultimately give up due to the public floggings in forums by these rivet counters.

Very rarely do the FREEWARE user even bother to acknowledge or appreciate the fact that they are getting others peoples hard efforts for FREE. There is an almost a pervasive outlook in the simming community that we are ENTITLED to get FREE stuff and ENTITLED to critique or even slander those that give us the free stuff.

Basically we seem to have lost the concept of FREEWARE being a PRIVILAGE that it is shared with us.

Very very rare to ever see - "WOW - thanks mate for sharing this with me" from the simming community. Yes, sometimes, what some could class as junk, is published - but that junk is often many hard hours of slogging with unfamiliar tools, learning and effort and often some personal financial costs by the developer and he/she wants to share that time and effort with others. Knock or critique too hard and the enthusiasm disappears and we possible loose another budding developer.

This Rivet Counter mindset and the loss of the concept of a PRIVILAGE that freeware is being shared with us is harming our most precious simming resource. Imagine simming with only payware products - the contribution of freeware developers have keep simming alive since its inception - many sites exist only because of the volume of freeware that is published by amateur developers and shared with us because they choose to do so.

There is a fine line between critique and guidance - many developers appreciate guidance but disdain critiques that are unwarranted, ignorant, or downright malicious in content.

In a nutshell, lets show some appreciation every now and again for what we get for free from a plethora of developers - encourage the budding developer - everyone starts somewhere on the quality scale and improves with guidance and appreciation - all we have to do is put in a little time for constructive feedback and support and we all win.

And finally to the Rivet Counters - if you don't like it - just don't use it - or even better - do a better rendition yourself and share it with us.


You said it all Gary!!! :salute::applause::applause::applause::applause::a pplause::applause::applause::applause::applause::a pplause::applause:

[andersel]

Well said, Garry. As I have said before, I greatly appreciate the efforts of all the modelers, painters and scenery makers that bless us with the products of their hard work. And I will continue to do so. Thank you VERY MUCH to all of you, both individually and collectively.

LA

[ViperPilot2]

That's why the majority of the airplanes I have in my Hangar are freeware airplanes. There are some very good ones out there, and I will continue to support freeware creators, regardless of the Sim platform.

91607

[Bushpounder]

Hi, Garry! Man, a voice from the past! You are spot on. The attitude across the community was totally different when there was more freeware. I miss those days, they were fun, and because so many were a part of the designing process, it made a tighter community. I'm seeing more and more complaining by those who cannot draw a straight line, make a 3-D object, or color a circle in. I also am knocked over by those who have never flown a real airplane, but know how they should feel and fly like. Amazing. The community needs to accept all levels of contributions, if they don't like, delete it, but don't bully the poor guy or gal for trying. Everyone starts at a beginning. I also urge those who have never flown to go try it sometime. They will see that not all planes are fast little race vehicles with 720 degree per second rollrates. My 2 cents!

Don

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

What you say is very true, Garry. Sadly, those who critique won't change their ways, nor will they ever see it the way you do. I learned this with our latest freeware when a guy commented and said he was completely dissatisfied. It was the only negative comment we got on the add-on. A number people talked back to this guy, but nothing made him believe that he was wrong to say what he did. There will always be ungrateful people in this community...in every community, really.

[falcon409]

Hi, Garry! Man, a voice from the past! You are spot on. The attitude across the community was totally different when there was more freeware. I miss those days, they were fun, and because so many were a part of the designing process, it made a tighter community. I'm seeing more and more complaining by those who cannot draw a straight line, make a 3-D object, or color a circle in. I also am knocked over by those who have never flown a real airplane, but know how they should feel and fly like. Amazing. The community needs to accept all levels of contributions, if they don't like, delete it, but don't bully the poor guy or gal for trying. Everyone starts at a beginning. I also urge those who have never flown to go try it sometime. They will see that not all planes are fast little race vehicles with 720 degree per second roll rates. My 2 cents!
Don
Ain't it the truth Don. . .good points. We've all seen a lot of those "experts" come and go. . .seldom admitting anything other than the fact that we were wrong to disagree with their "facts", lol. . . .and it has always amazed me that folks who will admit to not ever having flown anything will fight tooth and nail about an FDE which they say just doesn't "feel" right based on what they've read, lol "huh?" There will always be those and they will "always" be right and we'll just chuckle under our breath, shake our heads and move on. There are some folks who just aren't worth getting upset over and this community, in general, is just too much fun to be bothered by them.:salute:

[Paul Domingue]

Well said Gary! :salute::icon29:

In a large community you have all types of people and personalities and sometimes people say things without realizing what it might mean to another reader, it is what it is. I for one have been creating freeware models not only as a hobby but in the hopes I can give back something for the freeware development that has made flight sim so enjoyable for me over the years. There are so many fine people who have donated their time and effort over the years and I thank them whole heartedly not only for their freeware development but also for that helping hand when I was stuck. I intend to and do help others who are starting in this hobby when ever I can and I say to them don't get discouraged and keep plugging at it.

Paul

[GarryJSmith]

Concur with the outlook that there has been, and will always be, rivet counters - however, we do not have to tolerate abuse from them.

As mentioned, it is hard to draw a line between abuse and constructive critique - but if it is obviously abuse then we as a community should challenge the poster to justify there expertise which warranted the critique and invite them to do the job better and share with us.

Since starting this thread several PM's and e-mails have come through from those that have given up on providing Freeware in the recent past because of rivet counters - surprisingly more than we would think and that is just from SOH patrons. Every one that we loose is a loss of a contributor to our simming hobby. Who knows what little nuggets of excellence we are now missing out on........

I know, from many years of experience, that you will never convince a rivet counter that their perspective is "unique" or unwarranted - particularly as they seem to enjoy the fame and controversy of their threads, but we can inform them that their abuse is unacceptable to the community by continuing to support/defend the FREEWARE developers against the rivet counters outlandish posts.

Not on an "Anti Rivet Counter" warpath here - just disappointed that we are loosing Freeware developers to the ramblings of the rivet counters professing expertise or demanding Pro Quality from Freeware developers.

Regards - happy simming for us all.

[anthony31]

Spot on Garry.

Been thinking the exact same thing lately.

[StormILM]

As a long time user of some great freeware (and payware products), simply said, I am very grateful for the freeware works that have been given to us. I do all I can to make my thanks known to the devs and I try to give back to the community by doing tweaks/enhancements after release(if needed or to add to an already good model). We the "Poly Hungry" masses need to be grateful and patient with those who do so much and ask for little or nothing in return.

[ViperPilot2]

Hello, Don!

It's been a while, but good to see you again! Incidentally I have a couple of your earlier works in my Hangar; the Lockheed AL-60 and your Pilatus Porter, which I use all the time, along with a few of your Alaska scenery packages. (Talk about oldies...) :p

91616

[Francois]

Hi Garry !!! :wavey: :-)

I guess I've been in this hobby a tad longer than most...... started with computer flightsims back in 1979 .... BOY does that make me feel old, I shouldn't have mentioned it !! :icon_lol:

And like I said in a previous post, I learned to basically IGNORE all the bad things and people (although, to be honest, secretly my blood still boils once in awhile) because over all these decades I found that it will NOT change, no matter what 'we' say, write or do..... if it is your HOBBY, you shouldn't care less and you WILL find like minded folks to share it with. If it is your JOB you soldn't care too much either, because you cannot work well and not like what you do IMHO.

So I am always happy to mail and exchange forum posts with tose people I know who CARE and remain LOYAL to the hobby in general AND are civilized enough to remain friends.

For all the rest...... I sorta imagine they are part of these new fangled reality series were people just swear at each other and TV viewers (must also be of the same kind) love seeing it. Count me out on that :pop4::isadizzy:

Now, the best thing we can do to maintain our hobby is to BUILD things ourselves....... which is exactly what I am doing, so I have to run. Bye all !! :wavey:

[AussieMan]

For years I was involved in the model railway hobby and 'rivet counters' were a real scourge there. It was hard enough putting a line of rivets on a HO (1:87) scale model but when lack of space forced me to go to N (1:160) scale it was even harder. People expected you to have the exact number of rivets.

Like you Garry my attitude was the same as yours.

[Dino Cattaneo]

My two cents on the "freeware/rivet counter" plague...

During my FS-development carreer (more than 10 years!!!) I have received all sorts of harsh, unpolite and sometimes plain destructive criticism... My attitude, regardless of who the sender was and the degree of harshness, has always been like this:
1 - Does this guy have point?
2 - Can I make my plane better?
3 - If so how long it would take and would it be fun?
...and then eventually upgrade the product.

Life is too short to give too much importance to what, basically, it is just a videogame - and it is way too short to whine about virtual rivets.

I really appreciate the "thank you" messages I receive from time to time - but they are just a fraction of the user base of my planes (1-2% maybe?). Does that hurt my feelings as freeware developer? No. I do what I do because I like it and it is fun and that's it. Criticism is welcome in any form, BUT if it is polite, accurate and resonable there is a much higher chance it helps me making better aicrafts.

[Sascha66]

Life is too short to give too much importance to what, basically, it is just a videogame - and it is way too short to whine about virtual rivets.

I really appreciate the "thank you" messages I receive from time to time - but they are just a fraction of the user base of my planes (1-2% maybe?). Does that hurt my feelings as freeware developer? No. I do what I do because I like it and it is fun and that's it. Criticism is welcome in any form, BUT if it is polite, accurate and resonable there is a much higher chance it helps me making better aicrafts.

Well said! That is a very sanguine attitude - I know that I don't like people flaming my stuff which is why I am always reluctant to release it, and why I have come to do this at SOH in fact because people are more civil and encouraging here.
Sascha

[rdaniell]

I have just started releasing some of my scenery projects here at the Outhouse. As far as I know they have been fairly well received. I must admit to feeling "let down" somewhat when I first started due to an almost total lack of posted responses. After conversations with a few Outhouse members, however, I now realize that is the "norm."

I have no problem accepting that as the main reason I do scenery projects is for my enjoyment. If they add to someone's else's immersion into virtual flying, that's just icing on the cake.

RD

[kilo delta]

It's been said many times before here...but..

The developer should build THEIR model first and foremost to THEIR OWN satisfaction. If the end user wants to nitpick or ridicule the end result then in the words of one of our own freeware dev's (Bjoern, a guy who got up off his ass and taught himself how to build some excellent freeware FS models) "they can f...... f... right off"


:icon_lol:

[aeronca1]

Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!

[glennc]

I very much appreciate the effort of the developers, paid and otherwise, because there is no way I can do what they do. I don't know if developers can see who is downloading their products here in the SOH. If I'm not saying anything its just because I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, or it just doesn't fit my FSX style.

Glenn

[Jafo]

Ah....probably 3 variations of the same theme...depending on the scenario....

Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - criticize.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - count rivets.


As for Dino....his stuff is just brilliant......now if only he could concede that a Thud is 'almost' a carrier bird...[it has a hook] ... and could/would do one to the class/standard of his Cat ....;)

[ThinkingManNeil]

FS wouldn't be anywhere without dedicated developers - freeware or pay. It's the designers, modelers, scenery designers, and re-painters that have made flight simming what it is; it would get pretty old pretty fast with just the base packs. I maintain that rivet counters have only three places in this world: NASA, aircraft manufacturers, and judging Grand Champions at Oshkosh for the EAA.

N.

[Daveroo]

Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!


now thats funny..i built a model of my first hobby stock,i used the correct year and model of the real pontiac ,but i left the body panels straight,without dents,as the car was on its first day of racing.i did in fact though modify the body with the correct fender cutouts,front end mods ect,scratch built roll cage exactly as it was in the real car,even with the trans cooler mounted behind me as in the real car...i used an ALPS dry ink printer and decal paper to make my own decals exactly as they were on the car in may of 1980.

i posted photos of the real car and of the model on a modelers website in 1998-99 and they tore it apart...one guy even told me that i shouldnt try to build a model of a real car if i dont have insight into the real item!!!,i reminded him that i not only drove the real thing,but myself and my "crew" built the real thing...and he called me a liar!!!

i never went back to that website again....

[Bjoern]

If I had a "punch someone in the face over the internet" machine, I would hold the highscore.
Then again, it's enough to ask me for a model feature or a paint or something equally ignorant of my so far completed work that's enough to tick me off.
And still one goes on and on and on and on...


Also, ever since "realism" and "eye candy" took over MSFS, the number of arseholes frequenting the various forums seems to have sprung up by a magnitude of ten...thousand. Not necessarily here, mind you, but definitely in other forums.



Stay strong, fellas. Do what you have to do and stick to the satisfactory mental image of your fist punching a fuzzily imagined face, should things get a bit rough.

[kilo delta]

It's been said many times before here...but..

The developer should build THEIR model first and foremost to THEIR OWN satisfaction. If the end user wants to nitpick or ridicule the end result then in the words of one of our own freeware dev's (Bjoern, a guy who got up off his ass and taught himself how to build some excellent freeware FS models) "they can f...... f... right off"


:icon_lol:


If I had a "punch someone in the face over the internet" machine, I would hold the highscore.
Then again, it's enough to ask me for a model feature or a paint or something equally ignorant of my so far completed work that's enough to tick me off.
And still one goes on and on and on and on...


Also, ever since "realism" and "eye candy" took over MSFS, the number of arseholes frequenting the various forums seems to have sprung up by a magnitude of ten...thousand. Not necessarily here, mind you, but definitely in other forums.



Stay strong, fellas. Do what you have to do and stick to the satisfactory mental image of your fist punching a fuzzily imagined face, should things get a bit rough.

I just KNEW that you'd comment in this thread! :p :icon_lol:

[guzler]

I'm not sure I agree with the comments that freeware painters / developers aren't appreciated. A few may make negative comment, but is it perhaps that these stand out and get remembered ?

I'm a relatively quiet forum user on here, but really so appreciate the effort that people put in and I'm confident that many more are like me. Please don't form negative conclusions because of a few comments. It's spoiling your fun doing the great work you do and will spoil the fun of 'takers' like myself who don't have the skills to do what you guys do but rely on you.

Chins up guys, too many negative waves floating around. now get that paint brush back out :salute:

[Bushpounder]

Hello, Don!

It's been a while, but good to see you again! Incidentally I have a couple of your earlier works in my Hangar; the Lockheed AL-60 and your Pilatus Porter, which I use all the time, along with a few of your Alaska scenery packages. (Talk about oldies...) :p

91616

Man, you have some of my first planes! LOL! I redid the Porter totally but never uploaded it. I am actually digging through the old sceneries and looking at some of the old macros I made and converting them over to library items for my Instant Scenery. I have too many hobbies now and bounce around between them. Between work, simming, plastic modeling and model railroading, I stay fairly busy! LOL! I do still have my bush site as well. Drop on by! Address is on my signature.

Don

[SeanTK]

My take on it...

I strongly agree with the premise that persistent, rudely presented commentary from an end user of freeware or payware is abhorrent. On that note though, we can't be too quick to jump on anyone offering advice to a modeler/developer. I've seen a few instances in the hobby of a crowd using aggressive, harsh language against someone who is politely, gently presenting a critique that may be able to be addressed.

There are some in the community that feel that freeware should not be critiqued at all at any level, no matter how polite or factually correct the end user is, but I think this mindset is a disservice to advancing the flight simulation hobby.

If I try out a freeware aircraft for example, and it's one that I know a fair bit about, perhaps have real-world experience on, or just see something out of place...I should be able to gently suggest a fix or improvement. It probably relates to a cosmetic or minor functional trait that is not "necessary" for the addon to work correctly, but enhances accuracy. Suggesting this to our developers and encouraging improvement, I believe, is a positive thing for our hobby if presented correctly. If we didn't encourage improvement, again....politely....we would be years behind in addon progress in terms of fidelity.

The above is admittedly difficult for a community to put in practice though, since everyone has a different line/boundary as to what is helpful critique and what is considered "rivet counting".
As mentioned, this line can be anywhere from: Absolutely no critique whatsoever.....to rude remarks.

All in all, I feel that the flightsim community should be free to constructively critique freeware and payware releases. It's the angry remarks and persistence after being told "it won't be fixed" multiple times that seems to be the problem, but we can't halt addon advancement by applying a blanket "no critiquing" statement on freeware or any other addon type.

Just my opinion...

[Ian Warren]

1979 .. I'm only a newbie 83 simmer and thought now how can i count the rivet , mix the concrete and paint the walls and plant the trees ... oh and park the cars ... :icon_lol: Christchurch , New Zealand now for the build ... one person missing is our Tim "Piglet" Conrad ... now back to building a new airports is what i did for the so many and much talent people covering ... the aircraft ...
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/eUfqu.jpg
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/f300I.jpg
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/9vnUq.jpg
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/GHtan.jpg
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/Ac3Fz.jpg
http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/07/CDVtR.jpg
So many Freeware Developers and some bloody great Rivet counters .. The Marks , Milton's and the Manfred's to the Paul's and PutPuts .. gawd the list go's on .. Dino's to the JKs to the Jans
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[b52bob]

It's not so much what you say but how you say it. I think that many comments that are made and seem nasty are those who speak English as a second language. But, as has been pointed out, there are those 1% ers who are never satisfied.

I am guilty of not giving positive comments to all those developers who further our hobby. I hope to change this in the future. We all should!

Bob

[Kiwikat]

I don't have a single freeware aircraft in my hangar but I am certainly thankful for all of the free repaints out there. I guess the down side of constantly having bleeding edge payware come out is that it raises my expectations for all addons. Repaints are a fun way to enjoy both freeware and payware at the same time. :ernae:

[TeaSea]

From a practical perspective.....

Depicting all the rivets on a model would make the model look odd. Its a matter of scale. No matter what you try to do, your model is going to be depicted on monitor that may or may not be capable of depicting HDMI, or will be limited in size, or....(you can continue adding).

The point is that sometimes you don't want to depict with complete accuracy, because it won't LOOK accurate.

I give you "Barbie" as an example. Completely natural looking model as a little doll....bizarre if scaled up to full size.

And.....it's just plain rude to offer criticism if it's not done in the right vein and with an eye towards being constructive. It's also wise not to be too sensitive if you put anything (freeware or otherwise) out to the public.

[gaucho_59]

It's not so much what you say but how you say it. I think that many comments that are made and seem nasty are those who speak English as a second language. But, as has been pointed out, there are those 1% ers who are never satisfied.

I am guilty of not giving positive comments to all those developers who further our hobby. I hope to change this in the future. We all should!

Bob

Coming from a person who speaks English impeccably... as well as 5 other languages... I must point out that a reference to ESL speakers (English as a second language) [which I taught for the US Army after I retired...
could also be misinterpreted... and this brings me to the point of your comment... as you well point out... "It's not so much what you say as how you say it" (sic)
So I would like to add... Fair comments can be misinterpreted or taken offense by a lot of people.... ESL speakers...and natives alike... when they are made by BOTH US and UK speakers who more often than not... seem to have missed a whole bunch of periods in grammar, spelling, punctuation, usage, you name it... in Home Room...
In other words... people can also be "put off" by sanctimonious comments made in atrocious English...masquerading as "officious" language...
The first thought that comes to my mind often enough when I hear them is:
"How valid can this comment be when the person making it does not seem to know the difference between THERE and THEIR... or GOOD and WELL... AFFECT and EFFECT...etc.
Especially in the US... (and Italy as well) a lot of folks take ESL speech to mean the person is not very smart... when the guy with the accent or foreign transliterations might be a real "brain"
In Italy especially (where I lived for many years)... and where they have formal and familiar ways to address conversation... people almost always address "third world" immigrants with "Tu" [familiar] but
Americans, Germans, etc. with "Lei" (YOU formal]... never for a moment thinking that this address is condescending and paternalistic.
As an obvious American... I never had an Italian give me the "Tu" without having been previously introduced... Yet.. all Africans and Arabs.. are "Tu"... [kind of like all young black men were "boy" and
older men "Uncle" in the Old South ]... and guess what? Whenever I pointed this out to Italian folks... they were surprised at never having thought about the effects of their words on foreign folks....
Just like you said... It is not WHAT but HOW!!! The art of communication seems destined to be a "lost art"....

[dougal]

I did a count up today and discoverd i'm registered at around 18 diferent FS forums. Of those, It's VERY apparent, that here at SOH, repaints and other freeware, are in fact received in a far, FAR more grateful spirit than any of the others. Much as I agree fundamentally with the OP, I also believe, than GENERALLY speaking, SOH differs somewhat.

In my last paid line of work:salute:, I once quite literally saved the lives of 5 guys, getting seriously injured in the process. It was just one of those once in a lifetime opportunities to make it count. Of these guys, I receive regular Christmas cards form 4 of them, and have done so for years. The 5th guy said at the time, and I'll quote precisely... "hey dude, it's you're job. It's what you're paid for. Don't expect me to be grateful". I learn't to take those kind of comments with more than just a little salt (and even a a smile):icon_lol:

We mortals are made up of all sorts, and what a boring place this ammazing world would be if we were all the same.

Make of that what you will.

[Bjoern]

I just KNEW that you'd comment in this thread! :p :icon_lol:

A free opportunity to explode and sneak poorly disguised bad language in. Who can't resist THAT? :jump:

[Anthin]

As a rare poster,my first here,I would sincerely like to thank
you people who have given this old guy such joy. I have a lot
of treasures I cherish both scenery,models and repaints.

Maybe there are a lot of us out there that find posting a little
difficult. Every person who has given freely their talents should
be applauded and thanked. I have been remiss in doing so.

Please don,t let the rivet counters win.

Regards Anthin

[stansdds]

When it comes to freeware, my attitude is to not look the gift horse in the mouth. I am grateful for all of the freeware developers out there and the majority of the add-ons in my install of FS9 and FSX are freeware. As for criticizing freeware, if I feel that I can give advice in a constructive manner, I will, otherwise, I keep my mouth shut. If the skin is not perfect, there is the possibility that I can make corrections. There are some really incredible freeware offerings available to us and a lot of that freeware is at least to the level of quality and detail as payware.

I give a big round of applause to the freeware developers. :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[ShawnG]

I am certainly no rivet counter, I enjoy the work of many of our freeware creators, and I don't believe I've ever uttered any words of critique constructive or otherwise for a freeware model or scenery. However I do wonder about this post a bit. I guess what I'm asking is why do you create freeware? If it's to contribute to the community, learn new skills, give back to what has been given before are all very noble ideals. I just wonder if all that is true, why the words of a few idiots puts that in jeopardy. I think if the reason to create freeware is to have everyone in the community kiss your ass and praise your name to the highest, that's probably just as unhealthy for us all as the rivet counters are. I think that the work of freeware artists should be encouraged at all times, but if we're talking about entitlements, I believe freeware creators are entitled to respect and gratitude from the community. not universal acclaim. in other words, expect that some people are going to be morons, and carry on.

[ShawnG]

I really got a good laugh out of this post ShawnG.....I realize that I've only uploaded a few scenery projects but, I certainly was not hoping someone would stop by and kiss my butt. He, He, I'm kinda particular who I drop my hanes for anyway.

Now if I can find my "serious" persona....a screen shot or a simple "Thank You" every once in a while does wonders for my motivation. I expect it has the same effect upon others who share their work here at the Outhouse. Before I lose my serious persona, There are probably as many different reasons for folks doing freeware as there are people doing it.

OK...that's as long as I can remain serious. Heck! It's the beginning of the weekend and a bunch of us ole farts are planning a get away. I sure hope Don has not lost the key to the fuel truck....again.

RD


sure, I agree. I wasn't saying all freeware devs are looking for that. I just don't agree with "no criticism is allowed on freeware" even if I don't generally have an inclination to criticize.

[AndyG43]

sure, I agree. I wasn't saying all freeware devs are looking for that. I just don't agree with "no criticism is allowed on freeware" even if I don't generally have an inclination to criticize.

As a dabbler rather than a developer I'm possibly a little more relaxed about criticism. However, my thought would be that there is a difference between critique which can, if done well, be a positive thing and the sort of negative criticism we so often see; using a sports analogy, it is the difference between hearing from a geniune fan who wants the best for a sports person/team and a couch potato with a beer in one hand, pie in the other and crisps/chips on his beergut loudly proclaiming that "Wayne Rooney * is a talentless fat b*****d" - I'll happily listen to the first one, but will treat the second with contempt (even if he has a spare beer).

Just my thoughts, for what it is worth.



* Insert sports man of choice.

[p3aewguy]

Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!

How true! I used to compete in model shows regularly and you are right! The "rivet counters" and "experts" are brutal there! I finally quit listening to them and built and displayed for my own satisfaction. To H**l with the A**hole "rivet counters"!

Dave

[OleBoy]

Since my getting involved in flightsim generally, over the years I've become my own worst enemy as far as rivet counters are concerned. What began as a journey learning to paint FS models, invariably became a fixation to strive for perfection more or less. Once my skills and other forms of manipulation had gotten refined, the rivet counting bug had bitten me badly. This happening began to push the limits of my abilities and knowledge, which led me to strive for better end results. It's very rewarding actually, and very frustrating. It was a personal desire to count rivets in (my) workmanship. That was during the times I was doing only repaints. Now that I'm creating the models myself in Gmax, I find that my rivet counting continues as I model every little thing there is aside from the dirt and grime. Eventually, and very likely my modeling everything, will haunt me as I start mapping everything for the textures. Time will tell the further I go.

I like to count rivets and other details. Least in my work. :salute:

[warchild]

Ya know, when it comes to flight models, i'm not as good as i used to be maybe. its ok. I love the work being done by all the others doing flight models, now. they're pretty darned good.. but when it comes to 3D models?/ Oh boy.. hey, i'm new.. I'm lucky to be able to get a ball in FSX and make it bounce.. I do my best. maybe it isnt going to be 100% accurate, I'm lucky to make a recognizable facsimile. But i'm not going to let rivet counters, bean counters or anyone hold me down. I've done and will always do my very best, and i refuse to feel bad about that..

[crashaz]

Haven't posted in awhile as I have been busy with work and I need to get another video card... but I had to reply to this post and say.....



BRAVO!!!!

:wavey:

[trucker17]

Thank Gary....You said it all for all of us.....
I do a lot of repaints for the A2A Mustang CIVI and MIL.....It took a lot to get where I am now in painting aircraft, each one is different, and challenging in their own right.....
The sceneries I do are the same way, it has taken a lot to get where I am now, and I am discovering a lot everyday on both these things.

[Francois]

But i'm not going to let rivet counters, bean counters or anyone hold me down. I've done and will always do my very best, and i refuse to feel bad about that..

Uhoh! You said the B-Word !!! I don't know how to make rivets, so cannot count them even if I would want to. But the governmental beancounters are on my neck every week and they are a lot WORSE than those few rivetcounters in our hobby. :isadizzy:

[T6flyer]

We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either. Now, that had been built (just like all those before and after) with the original pilot's notes, technical manuals, hundreds of photographs, books and magazine articles, owners recollections etc and was a very accurate model. Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!! :)

All our models are built using the above references. We like to get things as accurate as the simulator software allows, or otherwise in our opinion it just isn't worth building. Over 700 hours go into each model. How people can say something is wrong, or change a value, sometimes publicly is beyond me at times.

Martin

[TARPSBird]

We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either... Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!! :)
Martin

Never underestimate the potential of people to be complete jerk-offs. It's nothing personal, just the way they are. You know you've created a good product, don't ever let guys like that get your morale down. :salute:

[TheGrunt]

We once had a chap who downloaded our Auster AOP.9 model and then sent an email saying that it didn't look right or fly right either. Now, that had been built (just like all those before and after) with the original pilot's notes, technical manuals, hundreds of photographs, books and magazine articles, owners recollections etc and was a very accurate model. Even the sounds were recorded from an airworthy 9. I'd had then about 60 hours in them and was so intrigued to learn more about the gentleman's experience that emailed him back straight away - he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!! :)

All our models are built using the above references. We like to get things as accurate as the simulator software allows, or otherwise in our opinion it just isn't worth building. Over 700 hours go into each model. How people can say something is wrong, or change a value, sometimes publicly is beyond me at times.

Martin
These sort of people are the type of person who aren't satisfied with anything - ever. You bump in to those every once in a while and notice them immediately because they are always whining about something. Extremely annoyning type and their lifes must be quite a misery when nothing is ever fine or good, which on the other hand is a proper punishment for such behaviour.

[hairyspin]

Thanks for sharing that Martin, it's easily the funniest thing on the subject in months!

[aeronca1]

he replied to say that he had never seen one in real life, but it still wasn't correct. I give up at times!!! :)

Just to play the Devil's Advocate in general (this is NOT meant in reference to your fine product), I have downloaded many free a/c that have serious deficiencies. They simply do NOT look like the real thing. I have a strong interest in Soviet aircraft and have seen some terrible freeware releases that people just gush over. I suspect the same thing that you mention is going on here. They have never seen the real life product. I have seen almost every Soviet mainstream a/c up close and personal so often the "wrongness" is very obvious. When this happens, I simply delete the download and go on with life. It serves no purpose to dump on someone's well intentioned work. I just wanted to bring up the fact that there are two sides to every coin.

[jpmouse]

As another old timer in flight simulation, I experienced it from the beginning and developed a love of our community. I still have that love for it. Those who are unfortunate to grow up with only reality shows as their parental guidance, can benefit by learning to interact with us in the flightsim community. They will learn courtesy, appreciation, and if they are willing and inclined, technical skills as well. Some will never learn. I have observed many who came in as "rivet counters" and stayed to be productive and appreciative alumni of our merry band of 'pretend' aviators. Love it or leave it, and have patience with those who are struggling in getting to the reality that they are not the only ones on our planet. LOL! Have a great day everyone. Love to you all.

[HarleyDude]

To ALL of you who have the talent to model,paint, and develop these fine aircraft, I extend to YOU a humble and heart felt THANK YOU. I have enjoyed your work and appreciate the time and labor of love that you have put into it. I marvel at the realism and beauty. I just wish that I had the talent and skill to add to this wonderful hobby. Please don't let those who don't appreciate your efforts diswade you from your participation. A friend told me this when we were putting on a motorcycle rally in South Carolina, " You could just put up a sign at said Rally and 10% would think it was great, Another 10% would complain about everything even if you gave them a new motorcycle, The remaining 80% are the ones that enjoy your efforts and are willing to help make it a great rally."

Thank YOU Again for your efforts and your willingness to share with the rest of use.