A small gripe

[fsxar177]

Please take this with a grain of salt. But I have a small gripe...

Not meant toward anyone in particular, or referencing any particular situation;

Over the last months here, and at other forums, I have noticed that upon the release of a new product, aircraft in particular, there is a rush for painters to quickly upload, and post screenshots of their work, on the new aircraft. This is appreciated, and we enjoy your work. However, sometimes these are rushed, and it shows in the quality of the work. Often alphas, and specular textures are left virtually untouched, leaving some quality to be desired.

This is all fine and dandy, with this exception. A payware developer will spend countless hours producing the original texture sets, and paint-kits. With much labor, and trial and error, these developers strive to produce a realistic balance of view within the limitations of the simulator, and graphics engine. The reward of that work is readily seen in the product. However, quickly produced, or hurried re-paints, can, and do, in some cases put a damper on the developers original product, perhaps giving the impression to passers by, that the quality of said model is less-than par.

As a careful caution; please take time, and be patient with the re-paint kits. It's okay to be in the learning curve.. But be careful not to showcase the learning curve too much, during the early weeks of a developers release. Give some of the more experienced painters time as well. Learn from them, and continue on my friends!

Best to all,
Joseph

[fsxar177]

And just to be an encouragement.. I had not re-painted since the FS98 days, with very few trials in FS2002. When I got back into simming, my first FSX repaint, which I released (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=3&id=5161) here in Jan. of 12, was on the WBS P-51D-5-NA. Along with trying to replicate the actual aircraft, from very few photos, I also had to add much weathering and paint stripping. It turned out 'ok', nothing great. But here's a few screens, I feel it was passable.

http://www.fsxairsports.com/teasers/paintexample1.jpg
http://www.fsxairsports.com/teasers/paintexample2.jpg
http://www.fsxairsports.com/teasers/paintexample3.jpg

- Joseph

[JensOle]

Hello,

I understand the posters opinion about "low quality" repaint. This is most of all a freeware community and as such we will see both outstanding texture art and not so great repaints. Then we as downloaders can choose whatever we want. Trying to just be hi end will kill the community.

This is coming from a repainter doing his outmost to produce as realistic textures as possible, but time has learnt me that we need the different skills and people to make this hobby great.

[mmann]

I don't know much about repaints, but I know what I like.

I prefer a varied selection, not just the masterpieces. Just like the aircraft I have; which are a mixture of freeware and payware. If I only picked the very best, only two or three payware companies would get virtually all my business.

[fsxar177]

I agree with both of you guys. I'm just coming from the angle of time-frame. I enjoy both sides as well.

- Joseph

[jeansy]

that post is a great way to encourage new and inexperienced painters to keep going or even start

remember repaints are free and people do them for fun in their free time, if you start demanding standards like high quality payware you will start to see the number of paints dwindling

At the end of the day, people start off at the lowest of levels and learn from there, no one starts an expert

i rather see poor quality repaints than none at all, at least there are people trying to have a go....



My gripe over

[stovall]

Let us not forget that the repainters are looking carefully at what is being produced, especially previews. Recently I was considering a repaint of Mikes great P-40N. Suddenly another repainted posted a preview of his creation. It was the same aircraft I was considering. No need for duplication and I went in a different direction on a different scheme. Really appreciated the early preview in this case as I would prefer not to duplicate someone's work.

I think all of us when we purchase a product we look at the previews from the developer as to what we are buying. Hopefully this sells the product and not repaints. I think the original post from fsxar177 has some merit as well but the previews done at a time when we all get an idea of what is being done is important as well.

Thanks to all for your ideas on this subject.

[trucker17]

I know first hand about the time it takes to turn out good quality repaints......
Here are 2 from me....
Berlin Express and my tribute repaint to #3.
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s495/trucker1762/2013-3-25_18-45-37-717copy_zpsf10cecee.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/trucker1762/media/2013-3-25_18-45-37-717copy_zpsf10cecee.jpg.html)

http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s495/trucker1762/2013-4-26_10-37-11-676_zpsb37d4150.png (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/trucker1762/media/2013-4-26_10-37-11-676_zpsb37d4150.png.html)

http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s495/trucker1762/2013-5-21_12-17-33-926_zps94fb9140.png (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/trucker1762/media/2013-5-21_12-17-33-926_zps94fb9140.png.html)

[hae5904]

Please take this with a grain of salt. But I have a small gripe...

Over the last months here, and at other forums, I have noticed that upon the release of a new product, aircraft in particular, there is a rush for painters to quickly upload, and post screenshots of their work, on the new aircraft. This is appreciated, and we enjoy your work. However, sometimes these are rushed, and it shows in the quality of the work. Often alphas, and specular textures are left virtually untouched, leaving some quality to be desired.

Best to all,
Joseph

That's why repainters call it WIP....Work In Progress, hardly finished, with a lot of things touched undone (mainly the alpha & specular maps...they can only properly done once the basic livery paint is finished).
But the reason for releasing these WIP screenies is simply showing the outside world what can be expected of the liveries what will be part of the product.
And there's definately no rush for them to quicly upload a screenie as you might think. They are part of a team and had the repaint kit long before you even know it was in development.
Not to mention while the product is being developed, the repaintkit will develop too, it runs parallel with the product so changed constantly along the way, and with a repainter adopting his/her work to the latest model(s).

Simple as that.

Cheers,
Hank

[ncooper]

I think you misread the original post, particularly this part.

"upon the release of a new product, aircraft in particular"

To me, that reads that the product is already in the "outside
world" to which you refer.

I am very grateful to all the repainters, whether professional
or amateur and for the often exceptional quality of their work.

Nick

[jankees]

Hank,
I think Joseph's gripe is with third party repaints that come out after the release of a new aircraft model.
Still, I don't quite understand it. These are all done for free by volunteers, and he is disappointed by some, and wants us repainters to pay attention to the quality. What I don't know is which level of quality he is aiming for, because he gives no examples. So how do we know what he expects from us, the painters?
Of course I too am looking for quality, both in the models as in the paints available. However, not all models can be of say A2A (just an exampe, there are other really good compaies) quality, so in reality they are not all of the same quality. It is up to me, the buyer, to buy a particular model (or dowload it in the case of freeware) if I like it. This means that I am not buying certain models, even though in some cases I would have loved to fly that particular aircraft (a certain Sunderland comes to mind for example).
It's the same with repaints. You simply cannot ask for all repaints to be of the quality of say John Terrell's paints. As Jeansy pointed out, they are done buy volunteers, in their own spare time, for free, so what more can you ask? If you don't like a certain paint, delete it, or make one of better quality yourself. Judging by your shots of MaryAnn, you certainly can...

[hae5904]

:icon_lol: ..thanks guys for pointing that out, yes I misread it .
One single word and it all went into a different direction.

Now where are my reading glasses.........


Hank

[Barnes]

I ve just seen this tread - wow what an odd thing to complain about.

May I apologise to anyone who in the past, present and even in the future that will find any of my repaints substandard. You are most welcome to delete them from your PC at any time! Sorry for the electricity and time you have wasted downloading them.

[Firekitten]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel like a factory, and one that questions my willingness to upload anything.

Firstly, not all artists are of the same talent or ability. Many are just learning and starting to work their way into this side of the hobby, so to gripe at their quality level is unhelpful. If artists are producing paint schemes after an aircraft is released... ok, so they're keen, the problem is what? Admittedly some models don't need work on the spec or alpha for a certain scheme, some do, depends entirely on the finish you want to achieve.

I wasn't going to turn this into a personal gripe, but what the heck, While I have uploaded what is a small percentage of my work to file sites, I don't do it often. This is largely because there are two camps of people, those that take take take and never say thankyou, and those that complain and argue, and it really makes you tired of the effort involved to offer your work to others for free.

Upload something to fs.com, and a plethora of pms demanding you do x for y aircraft, or apply the scheme to x model, or spend weeks working on something for absolutely zero response, and hundreds of downloads. Whist we do not paint for 'glory' or 'recognition' sometimes, its nice to hear someone say thank you... to know someone appreciates the work you did, the effort you put in, and when someone turns around and chastises artists for 'rushing' or their choice of practice, I do certainly remind myself why I don't upload often... far less hassle.

[Barnes]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel like a factory, and one that questions my willingness to upload anything.

Firstly, not all artists are of the same talent or ability. Many are just learning and starting to work their way into this side of the hobby, so to gripe at their quality level is unhelpful. If artists are producing paint schemes after an aircraft is released... ok, so they're keen, the problem is what? Admittedly some models don't need work on the spec or alpha for a certain scheme, some do, depends entirely on the finish you want to achieve.

I wasn't going to turn this into a personal gripe, but what the heck, While I have uploaded what is a small percentage of my work to file sites, I don't do it often. This is largely because there are two camps of people, those that take take take and never say thankyou, and those that complain and argue, and it really makes you tired of the effort involved to offer your work to others for free.

Upload something to fs.com, and a plethora of pms demanding you do x for y aircraft, or apply the scheme to x model, or spend weeks working on something for absolutely zero response, and hundreds of downloads. Whist we do not paint for 'glory' or 'recognition' sometimes, its nice to hear someone say thank you... to know someone appreciates the work you did, the effort you put in, and when someone turns around and chastises artists for 'rushing' or their choice of practice, I do certainly remind myself why I don't upload often... far less hassle.

Very well said.

[Steven190]

For me it is the joy of doing a paint scheme that I have liked over the years. I am a amateur at this but learning all the time. That is why most of my skins I just keep for myself.
I enjoy the resourcing of the project and finding out all I can about the chosen paint scheme. I strive for the best quality I can get, but it sometimes isn't received well. Each skin that is done get better from the previous one.
We learn and grow with every paint we do, some of us are far better artist then others. We learn from what they have done. I find that even when I have done a particular skin every time I go back to it I find something else that is needed, even though it maybe a very small thing. It takes me a good two weeks to do a skin. Some skinners are better at weathering, like me I am not, while others have a different set of skills. I have found that there are a vast array of likes when it come to skins. Some like a fresh paint, others a well worn skin, some in between. I add some weathering but I am never satisfied with the results.
As a point, I am a pilot and have spent a loot of time looking out the window at the wings. We all see things differently and interrupt it differently. My point is about the rivets and how they look on the wings, some see larger ones, some see smaller, and other hardly at all. You have to choose what you like and what you don't.

There are some very talented artist in this community, my hat is off to them. We enjoy their works, but done forget the amateurs, they can get to become good artist too.

We all do what we can to add to the community.

[mjrhealth]

Me, im an old dude, guess i come from a time when any help was appreciated,now everyone wants it now, perfect and free, than they gripe. The only repaints i have done where for the ol aerosoft twotter, now the new one is out i have just finished my second. It has so many layers its mind boggling. just to do a straight line on the fuselage requires, a section for the nose tip, nose tip to fuselage. fuselage to front of pilot door ( it slopes) one for teh door,( its offset), one for the front fuselage, one for the aft fuselage, one for a small section between the fuselage and the rudder and than the rudder.and both left and right dont line up perfect in a couple of areas so you cant simply copy and flip layers. Now i cant figure out how to get the reflctons working, hopefully get an answer from aerosoft.

First two in over two years, Started learning gimp 2 weeks ago.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/mjrhealth/shots01Aug041727_zps7a779c14.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/mjrhealth/media/shots01Aug041727_zps7a779c14.jpg.html)


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/mjrhealth/shots01Jul242052_zps7baca812.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/mjrhealth/media/shots01Jul242052_zps7baca812.jpg.html)

[TuFun]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel like a factory, and one that questions my willingness to upload anything.

Firstly, not all artists are of the same talent or ability. Many are just learning and starting to work their way into this side of the hobby, so to gripe at their quality level is unhelpful. If artists are producing paint schemes after an aircraft is released... ok, so they're keen, the problem is what? Admittedly some models don't need work on the spec or alpha for a certain scheme, some do, depends entirely on the finish you want to achieve.

I wasn't going to turn this into a personal gripe, but what the heck, While I have uploaded what is a small percentage of my work to file sites, I don't do it often. This is largely because there are two camps of people, those that take take take and never say thankyou, and those that complain and argue, and it really makes you tired of the effort involved to offer your work to others for free.

Upload something to fs.com, and a plethora of pms demanding you do x for y aircraft, or apply the scheme to x model, or spend weeks working on something for absolutely zero response, and hundreds of downloads. Whist we do not paint for 'glory' or 'recognition' sometimes, its nice to hear someone say thank you... to know someone appreciates the work you did, the effort you put in, and when someone turns around and chastises artists for 'rushing' or their choice of practice, I do certainly remind myself why I don't upload often... far less hassle.

I concur about everything you said!

[SteveB]

I'm totally with firekitten on this. I have released hundreds of skins, never been happy with end product but release and share it all the same. If payware or freeware developers or there fans don't like people having a go at the models then stop selling or supplying the things with paintkits.
It's time some people took there anoraks off and had some fun.


Steve aka stalin

[Steven190]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel like a factory, and one that questions my willingness to upload anything.

Firstly, not all artists are of the same talent or ability. Many are just learning and starting to work their way into this side of the hobby, so to gripe at their quality level is unhelpful. If artists are producing paint schemes after an aircraft is released... ok, so they're keen, the problem is what? Admittedly some models don't need work on the spec or alpha for a certain scheme, some do, depends entirely on the finish you want to achieve.

I wasn't going to turn this into a personal gripe, but what the heck, While I have uploaded what is a small percentage of my work to file sites, I don't do it often. This is largely because there are two camps of people, those that take take take and never say thankyou, and those that complain and argue, and it really makes you tired of the effort involved to offer your work to others for free.

Upload something to fs.com, and a plethora of pms demanding you do x for y aircraft, or apply the scheme to x model, or spend weeks working on something for absolutely zero response, and hundreds of downloads. Whist we do not paint for 'glory' or 'recognition' sometimes, its nice to hear someone say thank you... to know someone appreciates the work you did, the effort you put in, and when someone turns around and chastises artists for 'rushing' or their choice of practice, I do certainly remind myself why I don't upload often... far less hassle.


I know what you mean, I worked three weeks on a template, for another flight sim. A very detailed and accurate as possible psd template with 80 layers, for everyone to use to paint their own skins. Have not heard a thing, no feed back or complaints. Which is good maybe, but would like a second look, to see if there is something I did that is not right. We all want to but out our best efforts as possible.

[Matt Wynn]

likewise.... i'm with FK and Stalin (SteveB), there's not much more can be added, at the end of the day it's 'Horses for courses', for example i do not like photoreal paints (elements on a paint yes, all over, no) as they to my eye look out of place with a semi-real environment, likewise weathering... it can be overdone, underdone, a balance... but at the same time you're going to get criticism. yeah it'd be nice to have more 'thank you'-s, courtesy and manners cost nothing (though i've noticed that's mainly with the younger simmers, those just getting into the hobby in their teens etc...). like Steve i also have done masses of schemes, most of which have never gotten released purely because as artists we have this 'i could have done ____ better, and the _____' we're self critical in a way, each has a style and method unique to that artist... mrJ said it right... we seem to live in this era of (and sorry to quote a Queen song) 'i want it all, and i want it now' (personal viewpoint here with me, and in no way aimed at anyone, just an observation)... some people don't realise that we do it for the fun of it, pitting ourselves against a challenge... and how WE feel once we reach our own goals, we're not machines, we're Human... we have flaws, individuality and our own tastes etc...

this comment from Steve nailed it

"It's time some people took there anoraks off and had some fun."


and that's what simming is about, the joy of flying, for some, this may be systems deep, for others 'strap in and go'... but as i said... 'Horses for Courses' to each their own...

[Blackbird686]

IMO, If you don't like a repaint for a certain model... you can always remove it from the list after adding it.... You don't have to say a bloody thing to anyone, period. I usually try out repaints that people upload and if I like them, I will comment to that effect and thank them for their work in the forums. If a repaint, or anything else doesn't work for me, I will simply delete it and quietly forget about it.

I do understand what you are saying about the frustrations with folks who "take, take, take... and never say thanks". I learned years ago that there will ALWAYS be a peanut gallery, but that the majority of folks here DO appreciate the efforts of repainters.. despite the quality. I like to consider myself as one of those people. Just my bit.

BB686:USA-flag:

[gman5250]

IMHO...

This post has provoked some very long and passionate responses. I don't disagree with any of the responses to the original comment. I'll throw in my two cents.

I personally am drawn towards the stand out projects. I admit to being biased towards FSX native with bumps etc. One of my first paints was Milton's A-26, before it was brought FSX native. The converted FSX model was worth the 300+ additional hours it eventually received from me. Same for the D-18.

Freeware models are getting to the place where they rival or exceed many pay ware. The new C-117D, as a beta is a perfect example. I jumped all over that one as did Jan Kees and Hanimichal. At this time Jan and I have pooled our efforts on one specific skin that Jan will soon release. This particular model may be to shiny for some, too photo real for some, too clean for some, missing a grease stain here or there, the wrong color of white, the right color of polished aluminum, missing a rivet, the ADF is in the wrong location, the props are wrong........
That's all fine. I had a great time developing my skills on the model and I don't care if you fly it or crash it into the ocean. I've been an artist for 57 years. If I took it personal I'd have quit a long time ago.

This is a community where we share our ideas, talents and labor with our friends, brothers and sisters who share our passion. We don't ask anything for our contributions, but a "thank you" is appreciated more than anyone can imagine. Every project, whether it be pay ware or freeware is a work of art. Some are better than others. There are some pay ware companies that stand out, and some that are average. The stand outs I don't touch, in fact I don't really paint much in the way of pay ware.

The bottom line is we respect each other for who and what we are, we are thankful for the work the other guy has created and, most importantly, we honor every artist for their attempt to do their best. Some may fall short, so we look at their WIPs and help them along the way.

Did anyone gripe when TuFun put up his progress shots....I think not. TF did dozens of progress shots on the Howard and look where he finally took her. I can't wait to see the FSX...if that ever happens, but thanks Ted for the endless effort you put in to that model. I for one appreciate your work. Thank you Firekitten, John T, Jan and Hanimichal also. thank you everyone who has ever posted their work on this site. Thank you Milton Shupe.
This is not a competition...

End of rant...I'm going to go add a few tweaks on another file.

[OleBoy]

Firekitten said what's been on my mind for quite some time now.
My paint brushes have long since dried up.

The fun lasts just so long.

By the way, Matt is one of two members here that remember where my repainting skills were when I first began years back. I couldn't finger paint without borking up an FS model back then. Hehe.

[Matt Wynn]

Matt is one of two members here that remember where my repainting skills were when I first began years back. I couldn't finger paint without borking up an FS model back then. Hehe.

yup i remember those days... the Art Scholl Chipmunk springs to mind... that makes me think though, just how long have i been repainting and a Texture Artist/Painter?... (difference is chalk and cheese, repainters do just that RE-paint, Painters start from scratch) :blind: i remember painting the FS98 Sopwith Camel, then nothing really till FS2004 where i didn't read tutorials of how to paint, i figured it out through trial and error... then came the Mike Stone days, a regular over there at that time, then onto pretty much everything else... then FSX came along and once again, no tutorials, figuring out the Bump and Specular maps...

...hard to believe that i've taught a fair few tricks to painters & repainters over the years, and outlasted a few of them, even today i still teach tricks to the newcomers... shown Firekitten a few tricks (at least i think she got what i meant :isadizzy:, i've a bassackwards way of explaining things :icon_lol:), and i've got to say everyone i've helped/assisted and taught, i'm extremely proud of every one of them, likewise to other painters who've (for lack of a better term) 'earned their salt'... most painters form tight knit groups, we learn off each other and pass tips and tricks to each other, in many ways it's a community within a community... each artist unique, and good at a certain element of the paint, some are weathering experts, others, are graphical experts focusing on logo's and things, some are detaillers.. they love the details... it's why there's a wide variety within the community, tell every painter/repainter to do a certain paint and you'd notice the outcomes are wildly different...

... at the end of the day, it's a hobby within a hobby... we do it for enjoyment, for the pride we feel, not just for ourselves at overcoming a challenge, but also, for each other... it is only through study and self criticism that we can advance sort of "i could do the weathering better, i wonder if ........ can give me any tips on weathering" etc...

[Firekitten]

True, I've learned some nice tips from Matt... Like him, I bodged my way into painting with some crappy trial and error work sticking new reg's on, logos... then carefully mangling my way through paint jobs. It took a long time but here I am doing aircraft texture art for Milton, Larry and others... Its a long road, and we've all been there before. I hate using the old maxim of 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything' but it fits... however, change it to 'if you can't say anything nice, say something constructive...' we need to be supportive as a community, pass on the talents and skills, and TEACH others, not put them down or pick holes.

As I said earlier, the vast majority of my work never leaves my pc... I do it for myself, sometimes I share it with others or post it online... I'm not after glory, or respect, or a position of power. When someone enjoys what i did... That makes me happy. if it means something special to them... all the better. I want people to enjoy themselves. if my work does that, grand, otherwise, I'd just keep it to myself.

We need to make this place a font of knowlage.... share our experience, teach the next generation or we're going to be the end of fs community development... Companies like Carenado with their new 206 are already making it nearly impossible for artists to work on their products... is that the future of flight sim? pre packaged, unmodifiable aircraft in some new fixed content sim? if it is, I'm punching out now, because for me, the fun is in the creativity.

*disapers off to work on a JU-52*

[clmooring]

I appreciate any contribution to the flight sim community. Thanks

[trucker17]

Any of us who paint...We all know just how many times we change a paint before releasing it.....Not to mention how many times we update a paint....

[TuFun]

IMHO...

This post has provoked some very long and passionate responses. I don't disagree with any of the responses to the original comment. I'll throw in my two cents.

I personally am drawn towards the stand out projects. I admit to being biased towards FSX native with bumps etc. One of my first paints was Milton's A-26, before it was brought FSX native. The converted FSX model was worth the 300+ additional hours it eventually received from me. Same for the D-18.

Freeware models are getting to the place where they rival or exceed many pay ware. The new C-117D, as a beta is a perfect example. I jumped all over that one as did Jan Kees and Hanimichal. At this time Jan and I have pooled our efforts on one specific skin that Jan will soon release. This particular model may be to shiny for some, too photo real for some, too clean for some, missing a grease stain here or there, the wrong color of white, the right color of polished aluminum, missing a rivet, the ADF is in the wrong location, the props are wrong........
That's all fine. I had a great time developing my skills on the model and I don't care if you fly it or crash it into the ocean. I've been an artist for 57 years. If I took it personal I'd have quit a long time ago.

This is a community where we share our ideas, talents and labor with our friends, brothers and sisters who share our passion. We don't ask anything for our contributions, but a "thank you" is appreciated more than anyone can imagine. Every project, whether it be pay ware or freeware is a work of art. Some are better than others. There are some pay ware companies that stand out, and some that are average. The stand outs I don't touch, in fact I don't really paint much in the way of pay ware.

The bottom line is we respect each other for who and what we are, we are thankful for the work the other guy has created and, most importantly, we honor every artist for their attempt to do their best. Some may fall short, so we look at their WIPs and help them along the way.

Did anyone gripe when TuFun put up his progress shots....I think not. TF did dozens of progress shots on the Howard and look where he finally took her. I can't wait to see the FSX...if that ever happens, but thanks Ted for the endless effort you put in to that model. I for one appreciate your work. Thank you Firekitten, John T, Jan and Hanimichal also. thank you everyone who has ever posted their work on this site. Thank you Milton Shupe.
This is not a competition...

End of rant...I'm going to go add a few tweaks on another file.

Ah... thanks "G"... always inspired by what you told me! Someday "G" will finish up on those Howards! I'm busy with clients at the moment and all because of that green Howard! ;)

[Francois]

I cannot even drop a bucket of paint on an aircraft model by accident...... let alone PAINT one on purpose...... so I stick to publishing models that others can use, improve or crash........... I'm happy that way and it seems to work for the FS community :applause:

[jankees]

almost finished, I just hope they are good enough..

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww230/jcblom60/Skyrooper/fsxq629.jpg (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/jcblom60/media/Skyrooper/fsxq629.jpg.html)

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww230/jcblom60/Skyrooper/fsxq633.jpg (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/jcblom60/media/Skyrooper/fsxq633.jpg.html)

[hae5904]

They're fine by me JanKees ! :salute:

Hank

[Francois]

Jan Kees, I think those bump maps are a bit overdone !




*chuckle*

[Francois]

They're fine by me JanKees ! :salute:

Hank


Den Helder? Heck, we just had lunch at Nogal Wiedus !

[fsxar177]

Hi fellas!

I appreciate all of the feedback. I do just want to clarify one thing, I mentioned

"...quickly upload, and post screenshots of their work..."

Posting a WIP is a great idea, and certainly helps folks know what each other are working on! My post is only referencing when a re-paint is hurriedly rushed, and uploaded, when a little more time would make a big difference! I am not suggesting in any way some type of quality control. Of course it's free, and we can and all do share.

My 'gripe' is strictly on the idea that we, as the painters, need to be discerning, that we do not cast a poor light on any payware developers work. Some of these guys are doing this for a living. Their pay-stub, so to speak, may reflect this. The most premium time for a new add-on, from the developers viewpoint, is going to be the first couple of weeks following a release. As we've seen in a previous thread, almost 50% of the people who answered, confess that they have purchased an add-on, because of a 3rd party paint-job! That shows how much influence the painters have! Really is neat, that we can work together that way as a community I only warn that we be careful not to have the negative effect, or the opposite, in which someone may not purchase an add-on, based on impressions seen in the early weeks after release.

I would personally invite any painters, who would like to continue their progress and knowledge on the subject, to send me private message. I am willing to walk you through any questions, or ideas, and to lend a helping hand, in any way that I can. Either through e-mail, or teamspeak.

My initial post is not to dis-credit, or crimp at all. But only to encourage.

I would not dare to come close to the experience, and know-how as many of you folks who have replied to this topic! Thanks for your input!

Best!
Joseph

[Firekitten]

I'm afraid what you're saying, however well intentioned, reads as follows; "If your work isn't good enough, don't post pictures or upload it in case you make the payware developers look bad."


No matter what you meant, that is how it reads, at least to me... You are imposing an arbitrary quality cut off. Which is not our place.

If a developer is that afraid of bad publicity from bad paint jobs, they shouldn't release a product that can be painted. Stick to MS flight.

[huub vink]

Hey guys, just calm down a bit and relax. Everybody here is allowed to have his or her's opinion. So you are also allowed to disagree.

When I read Joseph's post I read something about ill timing. I haven't seen him mentioning anything about skins which are not good enough to release. So why is everybody reacting here like they are stung by a bee?

Cool down, have fun, that's why we are here and that's why some of us make repaints. Don't get frustrated when somebody tells you that he prefers the style of another repainter. See it as a challenge to satisfy everybody, but be wise enough to realise you probably can't.

Huub

[jankees]

Den Helder? It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.....


ooooh, memories..

[jankees]

Huub, no bee stings, but still, the trend is: "I don't like some paints, try to do better".
I'm still doing this for fun, and will continue to do so, but I do it for my entertainment, not anybody else's. If people don't like it, too bad.
and if people think they can do beter, they should, instead of gripe...

besides, I see a lot of fun in the remarks alone!
So what is wrong with my bumpmaps, Francois? They are the only thing I did not touch..

[stovall]

Thanks Huub, been watching this entire discussion with interest. At the same time I am painting the FR P-40N in the colors of Little Jeep seen at Kweilin, China. I for one am a guy that has been painting for 15 years but still an amateur. Still enjoy it though and will be posting my stuff soon. As Huub says "have some fun."

[mmann]

My initial post is not to dis-credit, or crimp at all. But only to encourage.


I guess I misread your initial post; I seemed to have missed the encouragement part.

[TuFun]

I've only been painting what 1.5+ years now. I started painting for personal reasons. I've only uploaded a few repaints, so with that is these repaints ok?

I think Milton wouldn't mind, the model is like 8+ years old! I've stopped working on them months ago! Maybe I can fix them up to look better you think?

http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/04/6vLDj.jpg

http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2013/08/04/uvNFL.jpg

[warchild]

hehehe. if "I" was to upload 3d models and paints that were the quality of the rest of these guys, you'd never see them, because i'm just not that good. Sorry.. I aint too shabby with arithmetic and fde's but this visual stuff i pretty much suck at. You'll find i'm not the only one either. Lots of us here will never be very good, and thats just the way it is. We aren't all albert Ball, and we shouldnt have to be. The one thing tht you can trust though is that we are ALL, doing our very best at what we do. Some things we do better, some things we do worse, but we're all bustin our asses to bring folks the best we can do, because frankly, in my opinion, you all come second. i do what I do, for me first. Your encouragement is well intentioned, but you need to look at the broadest scope that you can because thats what there is here: A very broad scope of abilities.

[SteveB]

Ok lets all just stop painting or at least releasing paints on any payware release for at least one year.
And I for one would love too know what the payware developer your so protective off thinks on the subject of his customers painting his products?


Steve

[Akktu Stakki04]

Been following this thread with interest as my field of err expertise if there is one its in researching aircraft data repaints and markings and being a absolute ubernerd in that field I have never had any quarrels with any repaints at all, ok yes sometiems with historical insignia but I wont even go there as I respect the feelings of others lol.

It seems from the post that some payware releasers dont want their aircraft either repainted or skinned or touched thats fine by me and if so they can say so in their release notes and well in my mind shoot themselves in the foot or they can make it very hard by not releasing a paint kit until the pressure and the fact that nobody buys the product forces them to do so in ver 2 or 3 or whatever as I see the producers of the aircraft lose out . Imagine if Boeing or Douglas or General Dynamics or even Grumman and North American were to have said you can buy the aircraft but no repaints hmm wonder how that would have gone down. Just my two bits . I for one applaud all efforts at repainting and the atmosphere of help support and mutual learning on here lets not spoil it and if a payware releaser has an issue let him come on here and say so and not send somebody else please


AkktuStakki

[Firekitten]

Paint kits? we don't need no steeenkin paint kits!

[expat]

Ted I am sorry but those WIP's are clearly rushed and just not good enough! Surely this will damage Milton's sales of this (circa FS2002) model. ;) ;)

Honestly, we all of course want to and do support the payware devs for the welfare and continuation of our great hobby. That said, is it the obligation of freeware painters of all skill levels to help market their wares? Is it right to admonish (and possibly inhibit) enthusiastic but perhaps less experienced painters donating their time and efforts with the humble intention of merely pleasing all of us? We enjoy in this community a free market of sorts of ideas, skills, and creativity. It would be sad and disappointing if any contributions - regardless of their "quality" - were to be discouraged by this.

My own view is that rushed, incomplete or even not-so-great WIP shots or repaint releases make absolutely NO difference whatsoever as to whether I decide to buy a new release or not. The more choices the merrier.

[MCDesigns]

Paint kits? we don't need no steeenkin paint kits!


WHAT???!!!! :jump:

91446

[Akktu Stakki04]

Just saw that the first victim of the gripe has fallen and its a damn shame unsensitive comments by one disappointed person was enough to get the ball rolling. Well thank you and congratulations I suppose this was what you intended with your little gripe, stir up a hornets nest and then sit back and watch the mayhem. As i see it one person who for some inane reason that hes not willing to expand upon is saddened or disppointed by one repaint and decides to take out his frustration without thinking the words over, yes I know internet can be a right b**ch since once you have made your comment and clicked submit its out there, although to be fair alot of people go oops that was not what I meant and try to reset the discussion or be clear at what exactly spawned this gripe of your my feeling... one repaint of one single aircraft was not to your liking and off you went .

To those who are thinking of quitting please please dont your efforts your tenacity is appreciated dont let one .... spoil it


Just my two bits before I go skulk in my corner

Akktu

[TuFun]

Ted I am sorry but those WIP's are clearly rushed and just not good enough! Surely this will damage Milton's sales of this (circa FS2002) model. ;) ;)

Honestly, we all of course want to and do support the payware devs for the welfare and continuation of our great hobby. That said, is it the obligation of freeware painters of all skill levels to help market their wares? Is it right to admonish (and possibly inhibit) enthusiastic but perhaps less experienced painters donating their time and efforts with the humble intention of merely pleasing all of us? We enjoy in this community a free market of sorts of ideas, skills, and creativity. It would be sad and disappointing if any contributions - regardless of their "quality" - were to be discouraged by this.

My own view is that rushed, incomplete or even not-so-great WIP shots or repaint releases make absolutely NO difference whatsoever as to whether I decide to buy a new release or not. The more choices the merrier.


What FS2002... I thought this was a FS9/FSX 2013 release, well revised model release. ;);)

Dittos on what you said! :salute:

[deepdiver8055]

The simple thing most of you are missing here about the first post is simple... its called *Curb Appeal* He is simply talking about taking your time to make a paint better instead of half azz and going back changing that repaint over and over again due to making it half azz in the first place.

Yes some make 5 paints in an hour and some make one paint in five hours and longer but If I came across a model and a bunch of repaints on a forum which represents a certain model and seen these paints were just thrown together in a hurry making that model look like crap then I would not purchase that model or even waste my time downloading a freeware copy of it!.

If they were nice paints then guess what? I would investigate it more and find the actual developers site who made the actual model so that I could read more about the plane because the repaints look good enough to interest me in learning more about the model to maybe purchase the model and download it for sure if it's freeware. The repaints have a HUGE part in selling a model, any model! It's the first thing you see!... it's called Curb Appeal! It's the same in any business. Marketing is the number one key in everything you see today no matter what its about.

Marketing is even bigger then the product itself and thus makes the product what it is. Repaints do the same for a product no matter what it is, cars, planes, trains whatever... if they look nice then they will attract others interest instead of driving them away.

Now granted most of us paint for fun and could care less how a developer sells his product right? yeah it's OK they know that too... so with this in mind, if you want to create a crappy paint job and say it's good enough then fine, someone else will fill that void but then on the other side of the coin your just making yourself look bad which is even worse. Do you really think that no one cares? guess again!. If they didn't care then your paint wouldn't get one download so stop BSing yourselves.

Have pride, take your time, make some nice repaints, if you don't know how people will help you but don't just throw anything on a plane just to have some color on it. It makes a difference and represents not only you but your work the community and the guy who just might join in on a model just because it looks nice at first glance painted by you.

This was already started in another posting as well. Something to the effect of *Buying a plane based on a repaint*? Well there ya go. IT DOES MATTER.

Think about it first before posting something half azz. Try taking the hard way out for a change instead of the soft easy way and you'll notice how good it feels when people see your work and then tell others: Hey, so and so made that paint! man that's nice, I'm gonna buy that one and learn how to paint like that.

First impressions is the key.

my $0.02

Cheers!
~A~

[MCDesigns]

The simple thing most of you are missing here about the first post is simple... its called *Curb Appeal* He is simply talking about taking your time to make a paint better instead of half azz and going back changing that repaint over and over again due to making it half azz in the first place.
~A~

I really doubt anyone is making a paint "half azz" on purpose in the first place. Just because it is perceived a certain way, does not make it that way. There is nothing wrong with wanting to add to a paint if you learned new techniques or found you screwed up, it is part of learning. For every not so great repaint, there will be a stellar one also, so I don't feel anyone should be discouraged from trying their hand at repainting, we all had to start somewhere.

As for payware, if you are that worried about a bad paint ruining your sells, don't release a paintkit. :pop4:

[pilottj]

The best thing we can do for new painters is to encourage them to keep painting. We can give them advice, helpful hints to improve their repaints. There is a big learning curve when using a complex paint program such as Adobe or Gimp. I have been painting off and on for years and I still learn things.

All of us painters were newbies at some point. The more you paint, the quicker you learn. I saw quite a few folks begin their painting 'journey' on the A2A P-51. Sure their first attempt might have not had the sharpness as that from a veteran painter, but after they got some practice with a few more schemes, they were all cranking out excellent repaints. Another thing, it isn't like there is only one person painting too. With the A2A P-51 for example, there are more than a handful of painters, from beginners and veterans. They paint for free and on their spare time because they enjoy it. If they paint something that isn't to your liking, you are not obligated to download it, chances are someone else will paint another more to your liking.

I find the tubeliner folks can be a bit more 'picky' about details, I was painting some fictional liveries for the NGX, got an email from a fellow telling me all about xyz details. I did what I could then sent him my template texture and told him to have fun with it. Once painting no longer is fun, it isn't worth it. I take long breaks between my painting stints, otherwise I would go crazy, and end up missing the actual flying in FSX.

The funny thing about painting, the only way to see how something will 'look' is to actually do it, especially with abstract and fictional schemes...which is part of the fun. No one is obligated to like or download those schemes, its purely for the painter's enjoyment and creation.

[deepdiver8055]

I really doubt anyone is making a paint "half azz" on purpose in the first place. Just because it is perceived a certain way, does not make it that way. There is nothing wrong with wanting to add to a paint if you learned new techniques or found you screwed up, it is part of learning. For every not so great repaint, there will be a stellar one also, so I don't feel anyone should be discouraged from trying their hand at repainting, we all had to start somewhere.

As for payware, if you are that worried about a bad paint ruining your sells, don't release a paintkit. :pop4:


======================================


1) Some of them are in fact half azz and I'm talking about the repainters that know they are and still say: ahhhh it's good enough F it!
2) Your assuming I sell repaints or products. Wrong, don't assume.
I don't have anything to do with sales or developers selling their products through me directly. If someone buys a product because of my repaint then so be it, I don't get anything in return from the developers.

I make paints and put 100% in my work. I do that because I have the passion for it. All my paints have been painted because I enjoy it
and that I like to see others enjoying the paints as well. That's just how I am.

I know there are those who are learning and that's fine. They have my full respect as I was once there too. I would just like to see people put a little more into it and make the best they can do and I'm talking only for those very few I already mentioned not for the ones who actually care or are learning.

:ernae:
~A~

[jeansy]

======================================


1) Some of them are in fact half azz and I'm talking about the repainters that know they are and still say: ahhhh it's good enough F it!
2) Your assuming I sell repaints or products. Wrong, don't assume.
I don't have anything to do with sales or developers selling their products through me directly. If someone buys a product because of my repaint then so be it, I don't get anything in return from the developers.

I make paints and put 100% in my work. I do that because I have the passion for it. All my paints have been painted because I enjoy it
and that I like to see others enjoying the paints as well. That's just how I am.

I know there are those who are learning and that's fine. They have my full respect as I was once there too. I would just like to see people put a little more into it and make the best they can do and I'm talking only for those very few I already mentioned not for the ones who actually care or are learning.

:ernae:
~A~

so bloody what? if people do that who cares? its free and it wont kill you to look at it or download it

all you guys are doing are discouraging people from having a go, more so the younger and undeveloped painters

The perception I'm reading is " If your paints aren't at my standard they're not good enough and i dont want to see them"

have you ever thought, that there are people out there that think the same about your work? Have they shot you down about your stuff? why do it to the lessor of you?

What gives people the right to say "hey your work isnt good enough, dont post it or upload it !"

I apologize to all the other guys out there that are new or still developing their skills as a painter myself, i encourage all to paint to a standard they are happy with and post

god forbid if any person thinking about having a go see this thread and is turned off by it

time this is locked and hidden so people are not discouraged

[AussieMan]

How ungrateful some people are, it is almost enough to make me put away my paint brushes and say f*** you all.

As a repainter I am a complete novice. As an Australian I despair at the lack of VH-*** paints in a release of an aircraft. While some aircraft creators, both payware and freeware do include Australian paints in their release I feel I can add more. It appears that developers do a good job but are limited to the number of paints they can put into their release and this is where we repainters come in.

Yes the quality of my repaints may not be up to payware standard but they come from the heart. I have produced repaints of the WBS P-51D series that are little known outside of Australia. I have more in the pipeline but doubt if they will ever see the light of day now except in my own flight sim. The same goes with the GAS Stinson and the Lionheart Fairchild F-24.

I have also been wondering why I have only seen a couple of repaints of the JF DC-6B and the DC-3. I have found out with a real bang. For 9 months I have been working on an ANSETT-ANA DC-6 but I keep having problems with bleed through. Trying to eliminate this gets very frustrating and I put it aside for a month or so and then start all over again.

I am using Corel PaintShop Pro X5 for my repainting as it is more affordable that Photoshop. Because of this I am unable to use the A2A templates as they are too big for the programme to handle.

All my work is uploaded here to the Out-House but I am seriously considering my position and may just get greedy and paint for myself only.

[rdaniell]

Is this thread serving any useful purpose by staying open?

RD

[pilottj]

I don't think the developer has to worry about sales affected by 3rd party repaints. The only painters the dev is concerned with are those who he/she has doing the repaints for the initial release. I don't think PMDG's 777 sales will suffer from the millions of 3rd party 777 repaints that are about to come our way.

I think any addon will have improved sales if it has a good paint kit with a strong repaint following. Look at the releases with lots of repaints and how look at successful they have been.

Painters are as diverse as developers in terms of their 'style' too. Think of all the developers you know, ie RealAir, A2A, CH, Aerosoft, Carenado...etc. Each developer has their own 'style' of VC, such as how they texture it, use of click spots, popups, level of wear n tear, eyepoint perspectives and so on.

Painters are just as diverse, we all have different styles, we like to paint different things. Some of us like to only paint real world schemes, some only like to paint tubeliners or warbirds. Some like to paint clean paints, others like dirty planes. Some like to do fictional 'what if' schemes. Some like to create their own designs entirely. Some do a variety of things. Lol I usually do fictional schemes...if I do a real world scheme, I always say 'based on' somewhere...meaning it's not 100% realistic and I had to use some artistic license somewhere. Please don't beat me over the head if the registration font is 5 pixels too small.

[SteveB]

It serves too prove that there are A holes amongst us and that we repainters are not tryin hard enough.
Fine, I'll be a loser and give in bothering too try anymore, this place is FUBAR and i'm off on me holidays.

Steve

[jeansy]

Is this thread serving any useful purpose by staying open?

RD

Agree!

god forbid if any person thinking about having a go see this thread and is turned off by it

time this is locked and hidden so people are not discouraged

[bazzar]

Just before you do close, I'd like to add a couple of things here please.

Firstly I couldn't give a rat's posterior what people paint so long as they enjoy the process.

We have often been criticised over our paintkits being too difficult to use. This is mainly because a paintkit is really no more than the original model's paint system made available in raw form for people to use- if they wish. With us we have a style and process which may be different to others. In attempts to increase fidelity of resolution we may elect to make many small parts with fairly large texture tiles or have one tile used for some parts and not others. This is all part of the dev process to arrive at a result we are happy with for release of a briefed job. it may not suit a lot of repainters but there you go. We always add that our kits assume working knowlege of potato shop techniques and have never said that the kits are suitable for novice painters. Think back and you will find that paintkits never were a standard inclusion in payware anyway.

We don't start out developing with repainters first in mind. never have, probably never will. I am sure car manufacturers don't manufacture a vehicle with repainters in mind either. They use their own technologies and processes to suit them and their competitive position.

Pat, you know you only have to ask if you are having trouble with a paint for a DC6, we can point you in the right direction.

When I started re-painting, there were no paintkits. We just experimented, painting over copies of existing tiles. These days people want layered kits with rivets, weathering, metal effects and often even camouflage schemes already there and complain when they don't get them. That's not repainting, that's adding decals.

:engel016:

[pilottj]

This is just like when a developer shows some preview screenshots of a new project, 95% of the people leave complimentary remarks and encouraging comments. There is always a 5 percent that are complaining that the lavatory toilet lid is the wrong shade of grey or the cupholders are fastened with the wrong type of screws...etc. I really can understand why developers choose to withhold their project screenshots until release. That being said, the VAST majority of simmers are very grateful for any work done to make this hobby better. Developers should know they make a LOT of people happy and should keep producing their great addons despite the few complainers.

Fellow painters, please do not get discouraged, the vast majority of folks are very grateful, we love your work and are eager for more. Do not let a few ruin the fun for you. Take a break if you need to, painting itself can be a hairpulling frustrating experience sometimes, but don't give it up.

Cheers
TJ

[stovall]

Looks like most everything has been said about this subject and more. I think we should finish this thread off with the last comment by Pilottj:

" Developers should know they make a LOT of people happy and should keep producing their great addons despite the few complainers.

Fellow painters, please do not get discouraged, the vast majority of folks are very grateful, we love your work and are eager for more. Do not let a few ruin the fun for you. Take a break if you need to, painting itself can be a hairpulling frustrating experience sometimes, but don't give it up."

Thanks to all for your input and let the paint flow.