TubLiner's Dream

[Pepere]

Subject:: Boeing 797

Boeing to take on Airbus with (1000 seat) giant 797 Blended Wing plane

Boeing is preparing a 1000 passenger jet that could reshape the Air travel industry for the next 100 years.The radical Blended Wing design has been developed by Boeing in cooperation with the NASA Langley Research Centre.The mammoth plane will have a wing span of 265 feet compared to the 747's 211 feet, and is designed to fit within the newly created terminals used for the 555 seat Airbus A380, which is 262 feet wide.The new 797 is in direct response to the Airbus A380 which has racked up 159 orders, but has not yet flown any passengers.Boeing decide to kill its 747X stretched super jumbo in 2003 after little interest was shown by airline companies, but has continued to develop the ultimate Airbus crusher 797 for years at its Phantom Works
research facility in Long Beach, Calif.

The Airbus A380 has been in the works since 1999 and has accumulated $13 billion in development costs, which gives Boeing a huge advantage now that Airbus has committed to the older style tubular aircraft for decades to come.There are several big advantages to the blended wing design, the most important being the lift to drag ratio which is expected to increase by an amazing 50%, with overall weight reduced by 25%, making it an
estimated 33% more efficient than the A380, and making Airbus's $13 billion dollar investment look pretty shaky.
High body rigidity is another key factor in blended wing aircraft, It reduces turbu lence and creates less stress on the air frame which adds to efficiency, giving the 797 a tremendous 8800 nautical mile
range with its 1000 passengers flying comfortably at mach .88 or 654 mph (+-1046km/h) cruising speed another advantage over the Airbus tube-and-wing designed A380's 570 mph (912 km/h) The exact date for
introduction is unclear, yet the battle lines are clearly drawn in the high-stakes war for civilian air supremacy.

Someone has to do this one for FSX!

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/b797.htm
David :rapture:

[heywooood]

the BWB is coming...and the inherent safety and comfort features will be most welcome.

that being said - it will mean a major overhaul of the all of the terminals and passenger loading and refueling infrastructure.

A huge undertaking but well worth it IMO...just wish the economy was not so completely wretched.

[Warrant]

Someone has to do this one for FSX!

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/b797.htm
David :rapture:

Totally agree! :jump:

What a bird that would be :welcome:

Ambitious guy's those peeps from Boeing ! :rollerskater:

[SkippyBing]

I'm fairly sure the Cranfield Institute in the UK was responsible for making the wind tunnel model (may have been free flight as well) as part of their own research.
I think one of the main problems with the BWB concept is going to be evacuating people in an emergency, Airbus only just made it with the A380 and it has a much better volume/surface area ratio, i.e. they can fit more exits per person than you realistically could with a flying wing.
Also be interesting to see what psychological problems might arise on a very long flight where the majority of the passengers would have no actual way of seeing out of the aircraft. Personally I like to be able to at least glance out an actual window, but is that just me?

[spotlope]

Uh, did somebody miss this bit in David's "truth or fiction" link?

The Truth:
TruthOrFiction.com went straight to the source, the Boeing Company. A spokesperson said that it is not true that Boeing is developing a commercial blended wing aircraft. He asked that we help stop the perpetuation of the story.

What is true, according to Boeing, is that Boeing Phantom Works, the company's advanced research and development organization, is doing research on the blended wing body design as a potential military aircraft. Boeing has built a scale model to test its low-speed flying characteristics in a wind tunnel. There are also plans (as of 7/13/07) to flight test a scale model.

[heywooood]

its true that corporate interests would like to keep such a dramatic shift in commercial aeronautic design quiet.

as to each passenger having a view outside - the 'truth' is that each passenger would have their own flat panel screen and multiple views outside - including a cockpit windscreen view...or inflight movie/tv programming. Y'all get a window seat.

the 'truth' is that this is all quite a long way off - but as fuel prices go, and since the BWB offers the best fuel economy by design - it IS coming

besides...the military already has a BWB - its called the B-2

[cheezyflier]

what about when it's time to taxi? whith it being soooo much bigger than the 747, won't that cause problems with clearances?

[SkippyBing]

as to each passenger having a view outside - the 'truth' is that each passenger would have their own flat panel screen and multiple views outside - including a cockpit windscreen view...or inflight movie/tv programming. Y'all get a window seat.

That's what I wonder about, would that actually be sufficient? It may be, but on the other hand it's not a substitute for actually seeing outside the aircraft, plus if it was packed at the same density as economy class is on a regular airliner I'd be wanting to kill someone by the end of a trans-Atlantic trip!

Strangely Avro almost produced a BWB airliner based on the Vulcan way back, mind you it only would have carried about 100 pax!

[SkippyBing]

what about when it's time to taxi? whith it being soooo much bigger than the 747, won't that cause problems with clearances?

Ignoring the 'it's not true' aspect of the story, the proposal only seems to be three feet wider than an A380 so it should be able to operate from the same airfields as it.

[Pepere]

Uh, did somebody miss this bit in David's "truth or fiction" link?

The Truth:
TruthOrFiction.com went straight to the source, the Boeing Company. A spokesperson said that it is not true that Boeing is developing a commercial blended wing aircraft. He asked that we help stop the perpetuation of the story.

What is true, according to Boeing, is that Boeing Phantom Works, the company's advanced research and development organization, is doing research on the blended wing body design as a potential military aircraft. Boeing has built a scale model to test its low-speed flying characteristics in a wind tunnel. There are also plans (as of 7/13/07) to flight test a scale model.




I miss it completely. :173go1:

The picture looks real. Man, cant trust what we see.

David :wave:

[heywooood]

That's what I wonder about, would that actually be sufficient? It may be, but on the other hand it's not a substitute for actually seeing outside the aircraft, plus if it was packed at the same density as economy class is on a regular airliner I'd be wanting to kill someone by the end of a trans-Atlantic trip!

Strangely Avro almost produced a BWB airliner based on the Vulcan way back, mind you it only would have carried about 100 pax!


HD monitors would be sufficient as long as there is ample atmosphere in the passenger area - if one can feel a breeze occasionally, one is far less likely to suffer a claustrophobic moment...also - the passenger area is not like a tube anymore ...it is more of an auditorium :ernae:
try to think of an entirely different flying experience, more like a Zeppelin than a sewer pipe

[simkid22]

Boeing built one...but it cant carry that many people lol.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4RUDNsqzYHk/RzpYuNwJWeI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/BQGOv7L-DZs/s1600-h/Boeing+NASA+X-48B+3.jpghttp://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/X-48B/Small/ED07-0164-04.jpg
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/X-48B/Small/ED06-0198-06.jpg
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/X-48B/Small/ED07-0164-1.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_4RUDNsqzYHk/RzpYvdwJWfI/AAAAAAAAAOY/qnFHzs5TsxI/s1600-h/Boeing+NASA+X-48B+2.jpg

[SkippyBing]

HD monitors would be sufficient as long as there is ample atmosphere in the passenger area - if one can feel a breeze occasionally, one is far less likely to suffer a claustrophobic moment...also - the passenger area is not like a tube anymore ...it is more of an auditorium :ernae:
try to think of an entirely different flying experience, more like a Zeppelin than a sewer pipe

I'd like to think of it like that, I'm just worried about how someone like Delta thinks about it i.e can they squeeze 1100 people on there in economy!

[CBris]

An ANCIENT idea by powered flight terms. The biggest single problem a blended wing design has is the human psyche.

Not being able to even see a window, let alone look out of one, is one of the biggest psychological negatives to any flying. It doesn't matter which way the windows point, but the brain still needs its 3D spatial and visual clues to the world it lives on.

With a thousand p.o.b. you will definitely get a "screamer" more often than not.

BWB will work, it does, and will be efficient in aerodynamic terms, in financial terms and engineering terms. But unless the airlines want to sedate their pax beforehand (let me know so that I can buy shares in Valium), then a bwb fuselage of that size won't work.

Besides - imagine the (pardon me) farts the AC would have to clean out of the air! The environmental control systems are getting massive already.

And beside, An A380 in the planned "stretch" version will seat well over 1000 pax in "coach only" layout - possibly as many as 1250 in "asiatic economy" seating. It might not pass the "Evacuation criteria" but it will have the capacity

[heywooood]

why does a BWB have to seat 1000 ?

the plane need not be any bigger than a 737 or OK a 757

the difference a BWB brings are, among others, the enormous fuel savings - the spacious seating arrangement options (remember - the reason tubeliners have become cattle barges is because of rising fuel costs and other cost per passenger mile factors) - and the enhanced safety with the greater glide ratio that the design provides..

Why are we 'supersizing' it in this forum?

and since many commercial passengers already practically euthanize themselves upon boarding the longer distance flights - whats the difference there? Why do people fear change so strongly?

[Bjoern]

Fugly thing.

Boeing should get their 787 in order first anyways. All hype about next to nothing. If they're going on like that, the A350XWB will steal away a good amount of the 787 orders.

[heywooood]

cool - another super-sewer

[SkippyBing]

why does a BWB have to seat 1000 ?

Good point, I'm guessing the initial post skewed my viewpoint.


the spacious seating arrangement options

You obviously have greater trust in the airlines than I do. If they actually did have spacious seating I'd be fine flying one. However having just returned from Colorado to the UK on economy class if they went that route I'd be killing people with the plastic cutlery before we got feet wet. Bare in mind if you can get the same cost per seat at a lower seating density the airlines could make even more at the same seating density as now. So they could get a 747's worth of people in the 757 sized version.

I realise the above sounds negative, and I'm not really I thing the BWB is a great idea, I just think from a passengers point of view it's not going to bring all the possible advantages.

[Pepere]

An ANCIENT idea by powered flight terms. The biggest single problem a blended wing design has is the human psyche.

Not being able to even see a window,

The picture of the "real thing" at the top of this thread shows windows?

They need to makes it small like a 757 or 737 size. Neat idea anyway.

David

[warbird861]

Looks like you really would like one of those.
:welcome: BWB but not in that size :hand:

[AckAck]

I thought the main problem they envision with the wing design is that the passengers off centerline would feel acceleration forces of a much greater magnitude during turns and banks, etc. Currently, the passengers are around a maximum of 15 feet from the center of rotation, but with a BWB design of size comparable to the A380 or 747, a passenger on the outside would be around 100 ft from the center of rotation. A bank that would raise you 2 feet in window seat on a A380, would flip you up 20-25 feet on a BWB. :icon_eek: (Is the barfing smilie gone?)

Not so bad for a cargo hold, but passengers might not appreciate it - even if they could see it on the lovely HD monitors built into the seatback in front of them.

Brian

EDIT - although looking at the photoshop at the top, it appears that the passenger compartment would be only a little less than half the width of the plane, so not so bad as I spoke of above. I got my misconceptions during my Aeronautical Engineering classes when we designed a Flying Wing cargo plane with the cargo bay full span so it could be unloaded from the wingtips. That one would have been very uncomfortable.

[heywooood]

not for the first time, the airlines and the FAA etc would have to agree on a set of flight envelope regulations for a specific airframe...similar to what was done for the SST types.

reduce max bank and stipulate straight in approaches or far wider patterns etc... if infact the degree of bank is as important as the roll rate.

[chinookmark]

The G's would be the same throughout the aircraft, but I can see the concern with the rolling motion. I think if the roll rate was reasonable, I think the ride would be fine. If you think about how long an airliner is, do the passengers in the very front and rear of the cabin get affected more by the pitching motion?

[SkippyBing]

If you think about how long an airliner is, do the passengers in the very front and rear of the cabin get affected more by the pitching motion?

Yes, but because of the plane it's acting in it's not a problem.