Photoreal Scenery, Vegetation & AI for FSX

[gman5250]

CBB7 Tipella



There has been some interest in techniques for building & landscaping FSX airports using various softwares and freewares available for designers. I have had requests to open discussion on this topic.

This forum will be directed at helping anyone interested in using my techniques or sharing their own to further the artistic development of our hobby. I am in no way an expert or "master" designer. I use simple tools to drag and drop the scenery elements onto the airport "canvas".


CBB7 Tipella ORBX modified

FSX Tipella


My primary tools are Airport Facilitator X (AFX) and Instant Scenery 2. I draw from ORBX bgl files using licensed software and many of the freeware packages readily available online.

Please Note: I honor ORBX copyright on their artwork and thus will not upload any of my projects. I would however highly recommend purchasing any of the ORBX regional or airport specific packages as these contain a wealth of resources for your own use in your own airports.


KMMH Mammoth Yosemite



I have found that I can use these resources to enhance any airport in FSX, anywhere. Beyond that Instant Scenery 2 allows you to hover over any location worldwide and add trees, buildings, aircraft or misc. objects. In my home area around KMMH and KBIH, I am systematically building a detailed model of my entire area complete with docks on Crowley Lake. I have built scale models of all buildings and hangers at these two airports.

Tipella CBB7


My best results have been with Blue Sky Scenery. Typically, photoreal scenery will eclipse all features beneath it with the exception of airports. Using the tools I am describing, you can place any scenery object on top of the photoreal scenery and achieve a truly accurate environment.


KBIH Easter Sierra Regional models by Gman
Blue Sky Scenery Photoreal

KMMH Mammoth Yosemite


I encourage any and all who enjoy scenery design and modeling to participate. I look forward to sharing ideas and tips with you. Please feel free to message me on my page or through this post.


KMMH



Thanks Milton for pointing me towards Tipella...and for your beautiful aircraft.

Gman

[Daube]

Hey Gman,

I don't know if it's a problem with my computer or if it's the same for everybody, but the pictures in your topic do not show.
I had seen your pictures of CBB7 in the other topic though, and it looked fantastic :ernae:

[gman5250]

Hey Gman,

I don't know if it's a problem with my computer or if it's the same for everybody, but the pictures in your topic do not show.
I had seen your pictures of CBB7 in the other topic though, and it looked fantastic :ernae:

I reloaded the screenshots...let me know if that cured the glitch....thanks for the HU.

[Daube]

I can see them without issues now :)

[Anneke]

I've read your PM. But I still don't understand how you made that photoreal overlay runway with the tools you described.

[skyhawka4m]

I believe that some of the runway that ORBX makes are actually objects and not the typical AFCAD/hptoreal type runways. My guess is that if its an object it should be able to be placed like and object. This is just a guess.

[gman5250]

I've read your PM. But I still don't understand how you made that photoreal overlay runway with the tools you described.



Many of ORBX runways are indeed objects with their properties i.e. multiple texture files for seasons and lighting. ORBX only places these in their location specific airports.
The generic airports within ORBX operate similar to FSX, but using ORBX own enhanced polys and landclass.

Regarding Tipella CBB7.
ORBX does not offer Tipella as an premium upgrade airport. ORBX PNW Pacific Northwest contains the actual area containing CBB7. The improvements to the area are well worth the purchase price.

The improvements I made to Tipella CBB7 include:

I created a new airport in AFX. You can search the database by ICAO in AFX. The default FSX default file for Tipella is APX15140.bgl. I recommend making backups.
I removed the runway and flattening polygons associated with the runway.
I placed the GPS info into the new runway for altitude, length, vector etc using satellite map data to establish location.

Save the airport as its own airport in FSX Addon Scenery file. CBB7 Tipella is what I used.
Load the file into FSX through the scenery using the Scenery Library / Add Area menu, and move this airport to the top of the hierarchy above all FTX and other installed files.

Leaving the FTX airports enabled, I tweak the runway ends to match the ORBX airport in Airport Facilitator X. In the live mode you can see the actual points you are moving in FSX real time. This makes alignment very simple.

Using method described above, the buildings, trees and polys ORBX has located in their CBB7 airport remain visible in FSX.
What remains is the ground texture ORBX has assigned to this location. This the grassy looking texture beneath the landscaping.

From this point I open Instant Scenery 2 within FSX.
I have quite a few licensed ORBX scenery packages, so numerous ORBX bgl libraries appear in the Instant Scenery dropdown menu. (Be sure to leave all ORBX scenery libraries enabled in FSX to assure access to the bgl files.)

Many of the bgl libraries in ORBX do not have associated thumbnails attached so you may wish to use the thumbnail tool in IS2 to create these. I have created thumbs for all the ORBX bgl files.

The landscaping is simple drag and drop of the various trees, grasses and other objects you may wish to incorporate into your design.
I used high res sat images for my tree placement. Tipella has a very narrow corridor of trees and bushes on either side of the runway with a logging road running directly adjacent to the strip. Some photos I've seen show very high brush as well, making the airport almost like a tunnel. I used lower bushes and grasses for a more aesthetically pleasing design. The tree placements are quite accurate though.

ORBX locations of power lines and other obstructions are quite accurate and demand a well-executed approach. Lining up with the towers 100-150 ft. under the left wingtip provide a reliable glideslope.

If you are flying Milton's Dash 7, ensure that the aircraft dirty well before intercepting the glideslope. Assuming 50% fuel weight, use 78 knots, gear down, flaps fully deployed. The Dash can be a handful if deploying flaps at excessive airspeed, but if done correctly your existing elevator trim needs only a slight nudge to hold level. From there slight power adjustments will trim as needed.
Maintain 69-72 knots on short final and push the nose down slightly after clearing the trees at the logging camp. Bleed energy to the threshold, easing the throttles to idle and flare slightly before the runway embankment (which is steep). You should be able to roll to a stop with no reversers.

I’ll be glad to provide more info on Tipella if I haven’t answered all of your questons.

On a personal note: Once I bit the bullet and dove into modeling and scenery I would have had more fun smashing myself in the head with a 10lb. dead blow hammer. Once I recovered from the headache, it became fun.

:isadizzy:

[roger-wilco-66]

> On a personal note: Once I bit the bullet and dove into modeling and scenery I would have had more fun smashing myself in the head with a 10lb. dead blow hammer. Once I recovered from the headache, it became fun.


Hehe, I hear ya!

Excellent images, GMAN. On the airfield backgrounds, they are not default FSX of course. Are these new default types (new vector elements in the tarrain.cfg) or layered ground polygons made in GMAX / 3dsmax like in Bill Womacks tutorial? I am particularly interested in the latter because I'm thinking of using that method for the ww2 airifelds in the Solomons to get more ground detail.

The vegetation looks great!

Thanks for sharing this,
Mark

[gman5250]

To tell you the truth, I haven't looked that closely at the stock polys ORBX is using. I know that the premium airports utilize .dds runway objects (overlays) with the usual alphas you would use on any .dds file to create the blends.

I have experimented with various layered polys in my airports, but I think I would focus on mastering the ORBX techniques for "texturing" the runways and aprons. I think that the artistic possibilities would be broader working in Photoshop to create the subtle edges.

Tippela was simple because I simply softened the edges of the base ORBX land class with grasses etc. I had been working on creating my own grasses and bushes, but the ORBX libraries are so complete I just drew on their existing files.

I think that ORBX would be very prudent to consider selling an actual design software package. I doubt it would hurt sales in their existing markets. IMHO

For KMMH Mammoth Yosemite, I used Blue Sky Scenery photo real. The challenge there was to camo the grass in the area of the terminal. It was super Kelly Green and looked pretty bad. (image)



I have since gone back and added some low cut grass from ORBX. If I switch off the Blue Sky and use my UT scenery it looks much better, but the surrounding mountain terrain is not accurate. I prefer to fly with the Blue Sky and my custom vegetation enabled. The shots on this page are in that format.


Thanks for the kudos on the artwork Mark. I've got a deep background in digital graphics, but this venue is a relatively new exploration for me. I've studied your work closely and have great respect for you. Your input is appreciated. I'll go back and look closer at the ORBX config for Tipella and see if I can come up with some better info.

Gordon

[gman5250]

Some additonal shots of Tipella CBB7

[TuFun]

Hey Gordon awesome what you are doing with this scenery!

[gman5250]

Hey Gordon awesome what you are doing with this scenery!

Crushing my framerates...but it looks good.

Just exploring the boundaries Ted....go check the Tipella album on my page.

[jetstreamsky]

I'm still no wiser on how the runway texture is obtained. The change between the third and second picture at the beginning of this thread is what I mean. Using AFX to place a runway accurately puts in a generic flat texture from an available list rather than anything lifelike. There's some discussion on runway objects and layered polys, but how do you find/use these. Also using photorealistic backgrounds is mentioned, in these cases is no runway texture used a all, allowing just the photorealistic to show through?

Allan

[gman5250]

The screenshots you reference are ORBX and FSX comparisons. With ORBX PNW enabled, the grass texture runway surface is the default in the package. When I superimpose my CBB7 over ORBX, I use only the runway link in AFX. This will preserve the ground poly and terrain mesh in the default ORBX. There are no photoreal elements in my CBB7.

82633

I populate my CBB7 airport with the folliage and buildings to create the landscape I'm looking for. Leaving ORBX airports (FTX_AA) enabled in FSX, I retain their polys, autogen, mesh and buildings.

I use photoreal in California, Nevada, Arizona and some other areas. These are the KMMH and KBIH airports shown here.
I was unclear on my previous responses as to the nature of the actual background at Tipella. My fault.

I am working on an overylay for KMMH. This will be a .dds texture (with alpha) laid over the photoreal Blue Sky Scenery. I'm not quite there yet with the finished model. I'll post up the results as soon as I have it finished.

G

[jetstreamsky]

OK thanks, I'll try that out

[falcon409]

I agree with your statement that it would behoove Orbx to release a payware scenery library of their objects for use by other developers. Personally I don't see that ever happening, but it would be great. You obviously have worked diligently to perfect the work you are doing and that's all great. . .however. . .the real enjoyment I get from doing even the rudimentary scenery I am able to produce is sharing it with the flightsim community. As long you lean heavily on the Orbx objects that avenue is closed. . .unfortunate for the community.

I think what you're doing here is great. . .aspiring scenery artists are getting a somewhat inside look at how some techniques are accomplished. . .something that isn't very widely seen (if at all). Unfortunately, even on design forums, it seems that those who "do" are quite often hesitant to give up any in-depth information on "exactly" how certain scenery work is accomplished, (Bill and Holger are exceptions). Just about anyone can produce a basic airport from scratch or enhance an existing airport with AFX and Instant Scenery, but crossing the line to producing 3D custom objects and realistic ground textures using 3D programs is like learning how to walk one day and a month later winning the Boston Marathon. Maybe this thread will get some folks to the finish line a lot quicker than they otherwise might have.

[TuFun]

Crushing my framerates...but it looks good.

Just exploring the boundaries Ted....go check the Tipella album on my page.

That looks a whole lot better! Nice work "G"!!!

[gman5250]

the real enjoyment I get from doing even the rudimentary scenery I am able to produce is sharing it with the flightsim community. As long you lean heavily on the Orbx objects that avenue is closed. . .unfortunate for the community.

Thank you. I appreciate your comment and I am in agreement that we will probably never see a scenery development kit from ORBX. Personally I believe it would enhance their sales and I base this assessment on my own experience from when I produced my own line of software years ago.

I know that I could post an ORBX friendly airport where I do the work and the guids are included in the .bgl file for the ORBX objects. Theoretically, someone with the lisenced sofware would be able to use the file without anyone violating a contract. I don't intend to do this until I contact ORBX and obtain a permission or approval. I believe in copyright. I shut down my software business due to copyright infringement in Asia. I went a different route that protected my intellectual proerty.

With regard to my willingness to share my ideas. This is a fluid and developing environment. I would very seriously consider developing a software that would provide these very tools to developers. The input from my peers in this area is very much appreciated and respected. With the developments I have witnessed in the aircraft design, dynamics and systems, I think the environment has to rise to the challenge as well.

This is a learning curve for me. If I can help my friends in the community with my contributions I am only giving back what they have already given me.

I am close to perfecting my KMMH and KBIH airports. I have a few things to finish...mostly night lighting. The buildings are high res 3D accurate models. I'll probably have animated doors on the "Mammoth Hangar" at Bishop that will allow you to park your aircraft inside. Currently I have a ramp located in mine and have designated that as my default FSX flight. When I load I'm looking out the hangar door past Shupes D-18 parked outside. When the airports are ready, I will post them, minus the ORBX foliage files. They will have autogen in the appropriate areas.


Hopefully, this will be a forum to help everyone aquire the skills to take maximum advantage of the tools we have available to us.

:salute:

Gordon

[Daube]

however. . .the real enjoyment I get from doing even the rudimentary scenery I am able to produce is sharing it with the flightsim community. As long you lean heavily on the Orbx objects that avenue is closed. . .unfortunate for the community.


I understand this statement, and I partially agree with that.
However, there are other arguments to take into consideration:

1 - Most of the freeware addon sceneries do not use such graphical enhancement, and as a consequence, most of the freeware sceneries look quite flat and empty (I mean, for a simmer that is used to the small OrbX airfields, that is). The usage of these objects from OrbX scenery library is a nice and easy way for the scenery creator to add a cool dose of details and visual realism, kind of a "beauty boost", to his sceneries.... with moderate use of course, we want "beauty boost" but no "FPS blast", right ? :D Of course, the OrbX libraries won't replace the need for specific objects, but here I'm talking about the "enhancements" to the scenery you would create.

2 - A very big part of the FSX'ers do have OrbX sceneries installed on their computers. Those who didn't buy any OrbX sceneries can still install the freeware OrbX PNW demo, and I believe this demo package contains the object library too, doesn't it ? That would make the object library available to anybody, so nobody would be "excluded" by this new technique.

Also, OrbX libraries can be downloaded for free from the FTX website, so installing the OrbX demo might not even be necessary. So I wonder what would be the real restrictions applying to a scenery creator there ? In any case, I sure would love to see the various airfields addons I have installed out of the PNW area enhanced with the OrbX objects.

[roger-wilco-66]

Thanks for the kind words, Gordon.

The thought of using the ORBX libraries as sort of an open or free standard is surely interesting, but as others have said, I guess that never will happen. ORBX has a business model, which is totally understandable.

The community or part of it could work together to create something like this of it's own. There are many very talented freeware designers out there. I for my part would share anything I have created for such a project, or create new objects if a need comes up and I have the time.
But this would require some tight working together. For example, many of the ORBX objects like aforementioned hangar require someone taking good photographs of it for texturing and measuring the dimensions (making the 3d model is actually easy). My point is, setting an open standard for FSX/P3D scenery elements is a real big community effort, but very much worth it in my opinion.

Cheers,
Mark

[gman5250]

Falcon, Mark and Daube...great comments.

The free downloads from ORBX do contain a large object archive. When I purchase an ORBX library now, half the motivation is to see what goodies are in the box. The use of the "free" libraries for scenery development could be justified i suppose. I'll contact them and get their views on this. This is an issue of intellectual property and ethics.

The concept of an ORBX "friendly" airport addresses this in part. The info is embeded in the file without placing an ORBX .blg or sheets in the library. The airport just points the guids to files already purchased by the end user.

Marks comment gives me an idea. If those interested wanted to go to their local airport and take clean photos for the texture sets, a large library could be developed quickly. The criteria would be easy to establish. The larger task would be to extract the buildings from their backgrounds in Photoshop. For the most part that would be relatively easy as buildings tend to have straight edges and are easy to mask.

When I design in 3D I take a screen snapshot of the scaled wireframe building and use that as the blueprint in Photoshop for my textures. Using a method similar to this could establish a common "calibration" benchmark.

Military AI Works is a good example of group contribution development. Their archives are large and the quality of the work is consistent. SOH is, of course, the best example I can point to. The contributors here are the most talented people in the industry.
If there was a genuine interest in developing an archive of royalty free objects it could certainly be done here.
I’m just thinking out loud here…any thoughts?

[MCDesigns]

First off, nice job on enhancing the airports, been doing this exact thing for awhile for airports in ORBX regions for personal use for awhile. I find the non payware airports, while spruced up, still look bland and mismatched and I usually find a good photoreal to replace them with and a few good object selections from the ORBX library also.

As for a developers kit, while they would get sales from the kit, I totally believe it would hurt their sales on airport packages. I am really surprised they haven't found a way to lock BGLs so that their assets couldn't be used outside of the area they are used for, it's what I would do in this small market.

[falcon409]

Hey Michael, nice to see you in here. Been a long time.:applause:

[Sundog]

Actually, I would like to see Orbx release an "airport" improvement app, that would allow users of Orbx products to enhance the airports within the Orbx areas that they aren't going to make payware packages for; i.e.-turn Orbx users into periphery developers, but anything you "export" for uploading and sharing at a site they create would have your specific account code attached so they knew it wasn't pirated. Because once they release FTX Global, there are going to be a world of airports that need updating, many that they will never do themselves. It would be great to have a way to upgrade them further to something between the LOD of their basic upgraded airfields and their payware releases.

Having said that, thanks for all of the "how to's" in this thread. There's another developer making an add on field that Orbx actually brought on board after seeing his excellent work. I'm trying to follow what he is doing in his development thread located at the link below.

5S0 Oakridge State (http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204586&page=9)

[MCDesigns]

Hey Michael, nice to see you in here. Been a long time.:applause:

Hi Ed, you as well, hope all is good! My FS time is limited, I sure wish I had time like I used to.:isadizzy:

[falcon409]

Hi Ed, you as well, hope all is good! My FS time is limited, I sure wish I had time like I used to.:isadizzy:
I understand completely, just good to know you're still out there and doing well I hope!

[gman5250]

When I shut down/re-tasked my software company (due to piracy), I re-vamped my business model. I hosted my intellectual property on my own server and effectively would license the designs through a third party. In this case it was intended to be 3M & General Motors...but GM moved to China and I didn't necessarily want to move to Bejing.

ORBX could host their scenery objects on their own servers and create a subscription based asset library. Once they have a world wide coverage area (I assume this is the intent) their lisence would be universal in FSX. From that point the subscription would allow the use of the whole of the assets anywhere, anytime for one licensing fee paid via the subscription. Problem solved. There would be no need to code the individual assets against piracy. The parent ORBX software could be coded to activate the art only within it's own environment.

REX usses this approach and it works fine. Of course REX delivers the art with the package but they could just as easily keep the art at home and populate FSX during setup via internet. It would eliminate the 9 gig downloads and headaches associated with upgrades. (I had a helluva time with my download...corruping the files. Reed finally sent me a personal disk copy. Awesome customer service.)


In the meantime...sharing design ideas here is what we have to work with now. I'm looking forward to everyone's contributions.

BTW thanks for the positive feedback on my projects. Tipella was my first attempt at building an airport.

[gman5250]

Rather than tread on ORBX toes, I have begun to develop my own scenery. I am begining with trees and ground cover, but will move on to buildings also. If anyone would be interested in helping with beta please contact me here. I'll do the work, I'm just looking for input and feedback. I've run these in my system and have no negative impact on frame rates or any other buggers.

In the photos below, the trees and large bushes are my designs. The grasses are ORBX and are added for effect. I will soon have my own grasses finalized. The airport is Bryant 057, Bridgeport CA....a WIP.

[falcon409]

Spectacular. .the first and last images could easily be photographs. Beautiful work.:applause:

[EMatheson]

are there any plans to do an FS9 version?
That shouldn't take too much extra work - just run the object libraries through ModelConverterX and compile an FS9 version of the phototerrain.
(I'm running the ORBX KHQM, 2S1, 4WA8, and 7WA3 in FS9 - minus the phototerrain and the sounds - just fine. The AFCAD took some tweaking and the sounds and phototerrain didn't convert - but that is because I don't have the source files for those! ModelConverterX took care of the rest.)

[orionll]

Looks nice, I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. :)

[gman5250]

are there any plans to do an FS9 version?


I'm sure I would want to do an FS9 set as well. I've been thinking about this for a while. I've been huddled in the back room working on the art. I've got the parameters pretty well developed, the rest is just design...and a lot of it. I am concentrating on ground cover first, then moving into different categories of trees and brush. This will take a while, but I will post updates along the way.

There is an album on my page...I'll be adding new screens. I'm using Bryant 057 as my testbed.
Bryant is a WIP...the screens below are progress shots. One thing I'll be doing for sure is creating an asphalt/dirt transition to soften the edges of the runways. That always makes me nuts, so I'm going to fix it.


Thanks Falcon for the attaboy. I've been burning the candle on this art...nice to know it's appreciated.

G

[Ripcord]

Gman,

Why not post / share one of your GA airfields with the ORBX FTX community? There is a new forum over there for that.

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/forum/165-community-scenery-addons/

This looks like pretty good stuff here.

As customers of at least one FTX package, we already have all the ORBX libraries so you would not be infringing on any IP/copyrights.

Ripcord

[gman5250]

Copy that...

I think I could post up Tipella now.

KMMH, KBIH and Bryant 057 need a bit of tidying up, but I'd be glad to share the work I did on these three. I've done all of the buildings for the first two. Bryant is almost finished.

[gman5250]

Scenery enhancements at CBB7 Tipella I did using ORBX scenery libraries. ORBX doesn't offer this airport as a standalone addon yet, but you can see what enhancements can be added fairly easily using native ORBX files. This particular airstrip was made using AFX & Instant Scenery2 (details above).

I've featured Milton's Dash 7 as a thank you for introducing me to this great location. He dropped the challenge to learn this approach. I liked the airstrip so much I had to spruce it up a bit. Pardon the video quality, I'm operating at the upper threshold of my system and some of the shots are a bit choppy.

The short flight is flown "dirty" at pattern speed and altitude. Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLT8ep47n0&feature=youtu.be

[FSX68]

Nice work Gman, do you plan on selling your works or will it be freewre?

[gman5250]

Nice work Gman, do you plan on selling your works or will it be freewre?

The scenery I am developing will available as beta to anyone who wishes to use it. I'm still refining a basic library of ground cover and trees. I'll notice this thread when it is ready for use. (soon)

I really can't say what I will do yet with the finished art. There is certainly a niche for this kind of product so I will have to give it some consideration. I'm trying to take my FSX environment to as close to photoreal as I can get. The beautiful environments that occur spontaneously in this software sometimes leave me mystified.

WIP: My backyard
O57 Bryant Field: Bridgeport, CA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2H5IrDWdm4

[Timbohobo]

Looks great gman, and its nice to know you respect our EULAs

Cheers
TimH

[TuFun]

The scenery I am developing will available as beta to anyone who wishes to use it. I'm still refining a basic library of ground cover and trees. I'll notice this thread when it is ready for use. (soon)

I really can't say what I will do yet with the finished art. There is certainly a niche for this kind of product so I will have to give it some consideration. I'm trying to take my FSX environment to as close to photoreal as I can get. The beautiful environments that occur spontaneously in this software sometimes leave me mystified.



Exactly... beautiful work "G"!!! ;)

[Sundog]

OK, a few things;

1) Cool videos.
2) Nice Landings.
3) This makes me want to find an airfield to upgrade.

There is one I know I would like to upgrade, but I think it would require a lot of building upgrades as well.

[gman5250]

There is one I know I would like to upgrade, but I think it would require a lot of building upgrades as well.

I started by wanting to do my local airports, KMMH and KBIH. I was fascinated with ORBX ground cover vegetation. I have lisenced software, so I used their libraries to enhance my airports...originally. That evolved into me learning how to make my own vegetation. Great fun once you figure it out. No one makes Sage or Rabbit Brush that is worth a ____, so I made my own. Now the sky is the limit.

Bottom line is that you can use ORBX libraries to do the airport you are considering. If you have a lisenced copy, you have the libraries. If not, I GAR UN TEEE it is a good investment.

Let me say now that I am not here to promote ORBX. I just like the software and what it allows me to do. Just wanted to make that clear. If I had the budget I'd buy the whole lot, but even then it's a big world and I doubt ORBX has the resources to canvas each airport...at least not yet.

To the point...for Mammoth Yosemite and Eastern Sierra I created all of my own structures. In my estimation the effort was well worth it, but it WAS like eating an elephant. If you are task oriented you may really enjoy taking this on. I'm task oriented and can't walk away from a challenge, so this was a fit for me.

If there's any way I can help with your project you I'd be glad to share any and all of what I have learned in this process. I really appreciate your input and comments.

RE: "Nice landings"...watch the Bryant/Kingair vid real close. I just upgraded my AccuFeel 2 with the new patch, and the Kingair went ape ___ berzerk when I hit the brakes too hard. Thanks Scott....LOL

G

[gman5250]

Looks great gman, and its nice to know you respect our EULAs


Thanks for the compliment Tim.

I've had my art poached so many times I've lost track over the course of my career.
I'm a common law guy and accept accountability for my contracts. If we don't have honor, we don't really have much...do we?

Cheers,
Gordon

[koorby]

Great work, clearly you have a talent for scenery design and the results are very pleasing.

However, as has been alluded to in this thread you are not allowed to use Orbx library objects in any way, shape or form for any project, scenery or extension even for personal use. I request that your video link be taken down and the screenshots removed from this topic since they show a violation of our EULA.

However, I do feel that we should not let your design flair go to waste and if you are interested in creating some freeware using our libraries which Orbx can host and share from our official site, then by all means do get in touch with us at info@orbxsystems.com

Please don't be discouraged; I genuinely like what you've done, but as a former software business owner you must understand we guard our IP diligently and we have no plans to license it to 3PDs since our libs have cost a huge amount of time and money to develop and are a key differentiator. We may at some point offer an Orbx FTX SDK to be licensed but there will be strict publishing rules around the produced content which will be controlled likely via an Orbx run freeware or app store type setup. Early days yet, but yes we have thought along those lines for some time.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

John Venema
Orbx CEO

[expat]

I am a lawyer and business man. I understand fully the need for businesses like Orbx to protect their commercial interests.

Funny thing is, as I followed this most impressive thread, it built up a strong desire to buy any other Orbx scenery I don't already have. Until I read your post John which poured cold water on it.

My point is sometimes enforcing IP rights on things that are technically a breach of copyright can paradoxically stifle activities that commercially promote and create demand for the protected IP. The best example of this is the ridiculously anal position of Gulfstream and a small minority of other aerospace manufacturers who fail to see that a more liberal position on using their images in FS would in fact be beneficial to their shareholders and provide some free promotion and advertising. It is often a case of the lawyers not seeing the forest for the trees.

That said, I respect your position and the policy of Orbx and pleased you have kept the door open for Gordon's fine work to continue.

[Daube]

you are not allowed to use Orbx library objects in any way, shape or form for any project, scenery or extension even for personal use.

I would be curious to understand what do you earn or protect with such a restriction ?
Restricting the distribution of such mods as freeware or payware, I can understand. But preventing somebody from using the files he paid for ? Really ?

[gman5250]

However, as has been alluded to in this thread you are not allowed to use Orbx library objects in any way, shape or form for any project, scenery or extension even for personal use. I request that your video link be taken down and the screenshots removed from this topic since they show a violation of our EULA.


Thank you for your response.

On the record here, I will honor your request and remove the art and posts from this site and YouTube. I'm sure everyone on this thread will understand the nature of your presentment and support this action without objection.

1. I have considered your offer to remove the protected propety from my personal software and find no objection to your terms. If you accept my terms that this will be done immediately without requirement for verification, we will have an agreement.

2. With regard to the images in this thread and on my personal page, I have deleted my albums containing the indicated property from this site.

3. I will contact amin. here to have the images removed from the posts that I can no longer edit. If these terms are acceptable to you, we have an agreement.

4. The YouTube videos are removed.

To anyone on this thread who may feel inclined to comment, please refrain from any negative comments or contributions. This presentment was made in honor and I in turn will respect the contract. ORBX retains the right to protect their intellectual property as they see fit, and defined within the terms of their contract.

Regarding my personal software, my own work is to the point that I can modify my airports using my own technology. Removing ORBX IP from my own designs does not present any damage or hardship, as I have been systematically populating my designs with my own IP.

I view ORBX as a fine product and will continue to consider their various payware contributions as they are offered.

Please note that the gentleman has also provided remedy, which I will take under consideration.

Gman

[airattackimages]

I would be curious to understand what do you earn or protect with such a restriction ?
Restricting the distribution of such mods as freeware or payware, I can understand. But preventing somebody from using the files he paid for ? Really ?
I agree. If I can't even use the elements of a program I paid for, personally on my machine, then that is something that I would consider before buying any more products. I don't like buying things that I can decided how to use as I see fit. Redistributing the product, I can see the issue with.

[mmann]

... you are not allowed to use Orbx library objects in any way, shape or form for any project, scenery or extension even for personal use. I request that your video link be taken down and the screenshots removed from this topic since they show a violation of our EULA.

John Venema
Orbx CEO

Could be worse! What if FSX had been put out by Orbx instead of Microsoft!!!:icon_lol:

[stovall]

GMAN, I am here to help in any way possible removing pictures, videos, etc. I have access to all threads and can do what you need.

[gman5250]

GMAN, I am here to help in any way possible removing pictures, videos, etc. I have access to all threads and can do what you need.

Thanks Tom...I've responded to your PM.

[stovall]

Thanks Gordon, please check the thread and replace your images as you need to. The originals are gone. Hopefully I selected the correct ones. If you need help placing new images just let me know.

[gman5250]

The originals are gone. Hopefully I selected the correct ones. If you need help placing new images just let me know.

You got them all Tom. The remaining sat photo is public domain. Thanks

[koorby]

Thanks guys for complying with my request, much appreciated.

Just in our defence (and I am not lawyer, but we've spent lots of $$$ on them sadly), we sell licenses to use our software, not a copy of the actual software itself. You don't ever own it, just the right to use it.

Microsoft Flight Simulator X is no different (read their EULA) in that you are not allowed to modify any of their files in the core simulator. However Orbx was given written permission to do so after meeting with ACES back in 2007, specifically because to create FTX we had to modify global files and swap them in and out. Of course FSX has a published SDK with which you can create new content, but just like Orbx's IP you are not allowed to use any part of FSX bundled with your products that you create and distribute.

This restriction is placed on most licensed software in the world today, simply because companies like Orbx have spent literally millions of dollars over many years to develop our IP and to allow any designer to use it for their own projects would be both foolish and fiscal suicide.

Our libraries are there for the benefit of our customers and are downloadable from our website for free to make it easier for our customers to stay current, but not to give developers carte blanche access to our objects so they can assemble airports and scenery. If you find this objectionable then you perhaps do not fully understand the nature of the software industry.

That said, I have contacted G and would welcome his contributions to freeware to be published via our website for the benefit of everyone.

[gman5250]

To clarify any residual issues following the recent exchanges in this thread.

I view the participants in these forums to be my peers of equal and, for the most part, superior talents to mine. My objective here is to share my energy with others in the interest of enhancing our digital domain(s).

My energy is my value and I am always willing to entertain offers to exchange value for value.
In my agreement to keep business and politics separate from this forum, I would request that any offers to exchange or guard value be tendered privately through PM.

That being said, I would like to acknowledge Mr. Venema & ORBX for clarifying their position on IP use via this open forum.

[Roger]

I am glad that parties involved in this thread have expressed their views in a gentlemanly way and for that I thank you all. I can't see that there is anything else to add here so I will close the thread so we can all move on.