"Taking the Mustang to Sea"

[Bomber_12th]

While having reproduced the historic P-51D-5-NA 44-14017, which was modified by the Navy in the fall of 1944 and conducted actual carrier takeoffs and landings in trials, which can be seen here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?74955-Naval-mustangs and here: https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/media/set/?set=a.411036362320574.97123.411008492323361&type=1 ...

...we thought, "what if"? What if the Navy had rushed the P-51D into production for its uses aboard carriers in 1945? Here's what we came up with, called the FJ-1D 'Seahorse'. As it would have been the first Navy fighter produced by North American Aviation, it would have preceded the FJ-1 'Fury', thus being called an FJ-1 (we've added the 'D' to coincide with the airframe being based off of the P-51D). Following a mid-summer 1945 production scenario, the aircraft is of equivalent P-51D-30-NA specifications (battery mounted in the engine compartment, an SCR-695 IFF set, square-tip props, rocket stubs, D-30 type cockpit (late gun sight and mount, throttle lever, gauges, etc.)), with the same catapult and tail hook gear as from the historic P-51 carrier trials. Research was done into the markings, stencils, and paint specifications used in 1945 and after, on Corsairs, SNJ's, and FJ-1 Furies, to finish this aircraft in a factory-delivered scheme, as it would have looked in the summer of 1945.

Both this "what if" model and the historic Navy-modified P-51D-5 (highly researched) will be included in Warbirdsim's up-coming "Mustang Tales: Post-WWII and Navy service". An authentic reproduction of the carrier USS Shangri-La, provided by Michael Davies, is also being included, setup with an AI route that allows you to operate from the ship in Chesapeake Bay, where the original Navy trials with the Shangri-La and 44-14017 took place. Both aircraft have been subjected to a tremendous level of testing with carrier operations, and come fully prepared and tuned for Acceleration catapult launches and arrested landings. Much larger versions of these screens can be found by clicking on them and opening them in their full-format size on Flickr.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/8526489116_4bd89bfcd8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526489116/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8525374685_953f1485c5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8525374685/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8526488976_dc6d262613_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488976/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8524/8526488932_cf22a71e75_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488932/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8526488806_4485a3cc34_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488806/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/8525374331_038a9eb0e3_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8525374331/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8518/8526488694_a7220570ac_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488694/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8245/8526488630_ea57bc6bf6_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488630/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8525374185_7b20c39fd4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8525374185/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8526488550_d20b5c7cb3_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8526488550/)

[lazarus]

All right! Now I'm in! If it has a hook...
Have you given any thought to the ramjet equipped version?
82290

[Flyboy208]

John really looking forward to adding this next series of Mustangs to my virtual hangar, and as a former USN Aviation type I am thrilled about a tailhook equipped P-51. Mike :salute:

[Bomber_12th]

Thank you Lazarus! Regarding that ramjet example, it has come up, however I wasn't sure about how multiple engine types could be handled via FSX on one aircraft. There was also a P-51D that was tested with German pulse jets, one mounted under each wing (at the hardpoints). NAA also had a P-51D with an Aerodyne rocket mounted below/rear of the belly scoop and was reported to have attained a top speed of 519 mph.

And thank you, Mike! For both the historic Navy-modified P-51 and this 'what if' model, it was fun to make those first carrier landings and catapult launches.

One of the well-known faults of FSX catapults when using a prop-driven taildragger, is that with even just mild amounts of torque and p-factor, the aircraft will disengage prematurely from the catapult. To get around this and make everything as user-friendly as possible, so that you can easily perform catapult takeoffs with no fuss, there are two different versions of each of the Navy Mustangs which will be included. One is 'Standard', and comes with full torque and p-factor. With the 'Standard' model, you can perform catapult launches, but you will not be able to power up to full-throttle without the aircraft disengaging from the catapult. For deck-run takeoffs and carrier landings, the 'Standard' model will provide the most authentic and most challenging experience of the two. The second version is called 'Catapult Ready', and on these versions the torque and p-factor are lowered to the point that you can safely power-up to full throttle once engaged to the catapult without being disengaged. The 'Catapult Ready' versions of the two models also provides an easier introduction into carrier operations, if the 'Standard' versions prove too difficult at first.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8230/8525943703_e3d1fc0274_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8525943703/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8525943839_a8afecf229_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34363610@N08/8525943839/)

[Roadburner440]

What a fantastic looking bird. May have to add this one to my hangar. Curious to see what some of these other post WWII Mustangs wind up being.

[CWOJackson]

Any potential for the Cavalier Turbo Mustang III Enforcer?

[Paul Domingue]

OK! I don't have a single P-51 but this one I must have.

[Bomber_12th]

Hey guys,

I'll try to post one last thread later tonight or tomorrow, showing the remaining 10 variants and what our primary focus was for this product (before it grew!), which will be very extensive. The product is all finished (14-15 independent aircraft (models & textures)) except for just the user guide remaining to be completed. I'm afraid for this project we didn't focus any time on the Cavalier Mustangs, as it might be better to give them the proper attention they deserve, rather than to try and include what would likely end up being only a half-finished version within a product that isn't actually focused on the Cavalier Mustangs (however, there is a tall-tail variant included, and a lot of post-WWII long-range drop tanks (one type of which is the same as used as tip-tanks on Cavalier Mustangs), which will be illustrated soon). There were after all multiple variants amongst the Cavalier production, with varying levels of variation amongst them (a few being quite drastic with power plants). We have numerous detail photos of Ed Lindsay's very original Cavalier F-51D Mk.II, inside and out, that could form the basis of a Cavalier-themed project eventually, but it would have been too 'involved' for this project, and would have likely made the whole product reach all new heights in file size. : )

One thing I didn't quite touch on in my original post to this thread, is that because the model for the historic P-51D-5-NA 44-14017 (that was modified by the Navy) is very specific to that exact aircraft and the way it was configured during the trials (early D-5 variant details, no ammunition in the gun bays, guns covered with protective caps, etc.) we felt it was best to provide this "what if" 1945 variant as well, for anyone who would be interested in experimenting with any kind of "what if" paint schemes. We provide the aircraft in a scheme that such an aircraft would have been finished in, having been manufactured for the US Navy in the summmer of 1945, and to be taken from there, however you might feel it should. One of the beta testers for this project, Dave Quincey, has already put together a couple of very nice repaints for this model, in which one is based off of the markings of a Korean War era US Navy carrier group, and another is based off of a Royal Navy Sea Fury scheme.

On the tail of this aircraft, and on the internal placards, is the aircraft's fictional BuNo., '102640', symbolic of an important date in the history of the P-51. Also note the block-tread tires on this model and the historic Navy model - these tires were stronger than the more common diamond-tread tires, capable of withstanding greater loads without blowing out, thus making them the best choices for carrier operations.

[peter12213]

Thoroughly looking forward this this one John, more than any other Mustang release bar the B/C variants. She looks absolutely stunning too.:salute:

[jankees]

Very nice, and I like the name 'seahorse'!
and are there any plans for a P-82?

[Yob]

Cool i look forward to this Just gota question is the p-39 still being developed or has that been cancelled.

[mrogers]

Great work John, looks great as a what-if package!


John, the naval D-30NA looks exactly the same as the RNZAF Mustangs, only that they were the D-30NT from Dallas with the "Dallas canopy" (and without the tail hook of course).

[skyhawka4m]

Having been part, A SMALL PART, lol...of this testing team I can tell you that this release in my opinion is the best yet. A few of the models are models I have been bugging and hammering john for since day one of WBS and I absolutely love everything about this coming release. Lots of cool features and effects. Can't wait to see the paints fly for this one! Like NAVY Reserve paints for the Seahorse......can't wait!!

[Tom Burnside]

What Mustang is that.

[Mach3DS]

What Mustang is that.

It's a "what if" example of the P-51D-30-NA which would have been produced if the Navy had adopted the Mustang. John has done an outstanding job with this and the rest of the entire package. Some of which he's shown in this thread, and the Geraldine thread.

Check John's complete explanation at the start of this thread for complete explanation.

[Tom Burnside]

Will it be FSX only if so whats the best Mustang for FS9.

[CWOJackson]

Hey guys,

I'll try to post one last thread later tonight or tomorrow, showing the remaining 10 variants and what our primary focus was for this product (before it grew!), which will be very extensive. The product is all finished (14-15 independent aircraft (models & textures)) except for just the user guide remaining to be completed. I'm afraid for this project we didn't focus any time on the Cavalier Mustangs, as it might be better to give them the proper attention they deserve, rather than to try and include what would likely end up being only a half-finished version within a product that isn't actually focused on the Cavalier Mustangs (however, there is a tall-tail variant included, and a lot of post-WWII long-range drop tanks (one type of which is the same as used as tip-tanks on Cavalier Mustangs), which will be illustrated soon). There were after all multiple variants amongst the Cavalier production, with varying levels of variation amongst them (a few being quite drastic with power plants). We have numerous detail photos of Ed Lindsay's very original Cavalier F-51D Mk.II, inside and out, that could form the basis of a Cavalier-themed project eventually, but it would have been too 'involved' for this project, and would have likely made the whole product reach all new heights in file size. : )

One thing I didn't quite touch on in my original post to this thread, is that because the model for the historic P-51D-5-NA 44-14017 (that was modified by the Navy) is very specific to that exact aircraft and the way it was configured during the trials (early D-5 variant details, no ammunition in the gun bays, guns covered with protective caps, etc.) we felt it was best to provide this "what if" 1945 variant as well, for anyone who would be interested in experimenting with any kind of "what if" paint schemes. We provide the aircraft in a scheme that such an aircraft would have been finished in, having been manufactured for the US Navy in the summmer of 1945, and to be taken from there, however you might feel it should. One of the beta testers for this project, Dave Quincey, has already put together a couple of very nice repaints for this model, in which one is based off of the markings of a Korean War era US Navy carrier group, and another is based off of a Royal Navy Sea Fury scheme.

On the tail of this aircraft, and on the internal placards, is the aircraft's fictional BuNo., '102640', symbolic of an important date in the history of the P-51. Also note the block-tread tires on this model and the historic Navy model - these tires were stronger than the more common diamond-tread tires, capable of withstanding greater loads without blowing out, thus making them the best choices for carrier operations.

Although I'm disappointed a Cavalier won't be included in this particular project, I understand and appreciate the reasons. Yes, they probably do deserve their own unique project to do them justice. I've always thought they were an overlooked aircraft in the flightsim community.

[Helldiver]

Well I hate to spoil everyones dream but I'm afraid the Sea Horse never could be. With one regrettable occasion the Navy never had a water- cooled engine in their inventory. The Mustang is a high altitude, long range fighter. A Carrier brings the airport with it. So the long range isn't needed. Their duties would be protection of TBFs and SB2Cs that generally hang around 10,000 feet. Hardly high altitude.
Plus some changes in the wing spar and landing gear would have to be made including stiffeners in the fuselage to withstand hard carrier landings.I'm afraid BuAir would turn their nose up on this light weight fighter and stick with the F8-F Bearcat.

[skyhawka4m]

FSX only

[Bomber_12th]

Helldiver, it is always great to see you posting here!

It has been long suggested, as you put it, that an inline liquid-cooled engine had no purpose onboard carriers during WWII, or at least it would have been a very long shot. This is more clear to understand when you think of the logistics that it would entail, with having to provide additional support, suddenly, for the added systems/parts that come with a liquid-cooled engine, over the standard air-cooled radial engines that powered all of the aircraft in the Navy's shipboard fleet, throughout the war. The Navy certainly had superb aircraft to fulfill the missions it was involved in. What you see here is definitely fantasy in most part, but is inspired by actual ideas that were being thought over at the time.

In 1944, there were yet to be any bases close enough to Japan to launch long-range fighter escort for the B-29 bombing raids over Japan. The idea enterred into the military's thinking that they could launch the long-range P-51 from carriers, close enough to Japan for the Mustang's reach, but far enough away so that the carrier would not be in immediate danger. The Mustangs would then meet up with the B-29's enroute to Japan, fly the sorties, and then return to the carrier. The Navy borrowed P-51D-5-NA (44-14017) in September 1944, and sent it to the Ship Experimental Unit (charged with evaluating all aircraft prior to carrier use) to see if the aircraft would be well-suited enough for carrier operations. This particular aircraft received a tail hook and catapult gear, and piloted by Bob Elder, completed 150 arrested landings at Mustin Field, and an untold number of catapult takeoffs and simulated deck-run takeoffs, also at Mustin. Starting on November 15, 1944, with the land-based tests completed successfully, the aircraft would complete 25 successful landings and 25 successful takeoffs (some of which were catapult launches) from the USS Shangri-La, sailing in the Chesapeake Bay. From there the program fairly much ended, as Iwo Jima was captured only a few months later in 1945, and Mustangs finally had a close enough land-base to operate from to carry out B-29 escort missions.

Here are some articles on the subject (though some of the information, like the common myth about it being renamed 'ETF-51D', is not correct):

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/naval/naval.htm

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2011/06/seahorse.html

The original historical example that actually was used in carrier operational trials has been recreated and will be included as well, as shown here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.411036362320574.97123.411008492323361&type=3 The fantasy 'Seahorse' model is only provided for a bit of fun and added discussion.

It is possibly worth noting, that the Royal Navy operated the liquid-cooled Merlin-powered Hurricanes and Spitfires from carriers during and after WWII, as Sea Hurricanes and Seafires (Griffon engines on later variants).

[Bomber_12th]

Will it be FSX only if so whats the best Mustang for FS9.

Hey Tom,

This will be for FSX only. For FS9, I highly recommend the old Alphasim payware P-51D, which is now freeware, and can be found at Flightsim.com filename fs9p-51d.zip. That model has the most correct shape of the P-51D of any P-51D made for FS9. I also highly recommend Warwick "Wozza" Carter's freeware P-51D, which has the most functions of any P-51D for FS9:
http://simviation.com/1/search?submit=1&keywords=p51dver2.zip&categoryId=&filename=Y For likely the most available repaints, there is the FS9 WOP P-51D by A2A Simulations, which is payware. There is also the old Roger Dial P-51D Reno-racer model for FS9, which also has a very nice shape to it, but it does not have a virtual cockpit - it can be found at Flightsim.com as well, filename rd_p-51d.zip.

I hope that helps!

[Bomber_12th]

Great work John, looks great as a what-if package!


John, the naval D-30NA looks exactly the same as the RNZAF Mustangs, only that they were the D-30NT from Dallas with the "Dallas canopy" (and without the tail hook of course).

Thank you Mark! There are a couple of P-51D-30-NT's included, and the markings on one of them in particular you should like (I hope)! ; )



Cool i look forward to this Just gota question is the p-39 still being developed or has that been cancelled.

Thank you Elijah! The P-39 has been delayed significantly, but it is far from cancelled. We'll be hitting that project hard as soon as "Mustang Tales" is released, and I'll be providing some updates again on that aircraft.



Very nice, and I like the name 'seahorse'!
and are there any plans for a P-82?

Thank you Jankees! No immediate plans at this time for the P-82, but I would love to work on one of those.

[FentiFlier1]

John, it's nice to hear the P-39 is still around.

I don't buy that much payware, but the dosh was immediately set aside for this one and it is probably the release I am looking forward to most :guinness:


Owen.