Craig and Matt's Sopwith Camel Flight Demo

[warchild]

TuFun and others wanted to see how this bird flies at this time, so here it is.. Please keep in mind this is an Alpha version of the flight model. Its still being worked on vigorously.
The Camel was a difficult bird to fly. it fought the pilot every inch of the trip, mostly through the amazing amount of torque developed by the rotary engine ( thats an engine that rotates around its center axis for the wankel lovers here ). We at JFTC are working on as closely as possible, duplicating that and other characteristics of the aircraft. in the film as the plane prepares for takeoff,you will see a cloud of smoke rise up. Thats from the torque forcing the right tire back to the ground before i could compensate for it. I'm proud of where weve gotten this aircraft in such a short time, but i'll also say that we have some ways to go..
The film is short, so please enjoy..
Pam


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIbS7Dmv4M&feature=youtu.be

[MDIvey]

Very impressive Pam... had to watch that a few times.

Matt

[warchild]

Thanks Matt :) ..
to be honest, I'm still watching it. I'm looking for the smallest teltale signs of whats right and whats wrong.. Its quite helpful, though i think my young charge and roommate here is secretly planning my demise after listening to that song some thirty or fourty times through ::chuckles::

[MDIvey]

I always remember in those Biggles books I read as a kid that he used the Torque of the engine to do a turn in one direction that his opponent couldnt match... Is it a case that the engine is turning clockwise from the pilots point of view so that a turn to the left was torque assisted?... a long time since I read them so I cant remember with my forgettory being what it is. Anyhow it will be interesting to have a flight model that allows you to experience that.

Matt

[warchild]

Yes, you are absolutely correct, and you have allowed me to see a major mistake i made.. I have the torque going in the wrong direction.. thank you :)..
Craig wont need to make changes and i can correct it quickly and easily

[MDIvey]

I'm sure Craig will be pleased :icon_lol:

Matt

[full]

LOL I'm very pleased ! I couldn't get the prop animation to accept the -1 in the aircraft.cfg no matter what I tried.

When your ready Pam I'll send Matt the updated flight model for him to test.

[IanHenry]

Did you clip the wing on the runway at 0.50 ? I don't think Biggles would have done that! Actually I read somewhere that the author Capt W.E Johns was grounded by the R.F.C because of the amount of accidents he had on the ground, does anyone know anything about this?

Regards,
Ian.

[warchild]

Welll, as i just discovered, everyone is right, even when they seem wrong.. The torque depends quite a bit on acceleration rate. so during takeoff when all nine cylinders are being used the plane will rotate to port ( left from the pilots seat ) quite strongly, but, when only three cylinders are being used and the engine rpm is winding down, the pull is to the right, allowing an amazingly fast right hand roll.
I will admit that this is the first rotary engine i've worked on, and quite a few things like this have taken me by surprise.. The more i work on this plane the more i come to think of it less as a plane and more of an entity, with an attitude. I bet in the right hands, this thing could take down an F-15. One hell of a little contraption.
As for the number of cylinders in use, I specified that because the camel did not have a throttle.instead it had a switch on the magneto that aloowed the pilot to select three six or all nine cylinders. Thus ( i think ) the reason why camels always sound like they are dieing or cutting out. it was the pilot switching between cylinder settings to achieve and maintain a specific speed..

[OleBoy]

The Sopwith looks to fly nicely. Another challenging type being as the magnetos control speed. I don't know how many times I went into the ditch due to forgetting to shut down. LOL!
Out of curiosity, do the guns work, and are there effects for them?

I'll have to dig out my Fred Flintstone walking attire for aid in stopping after it gets on the ground. :icon_lol:

[warchild]

Did you clip the wing on the runway at 0.50 ? I don't think Biggles would have done that! Actually I read somewhere that the author Capt W.E Johns was grounded by the R.F.C because of the amount of accidents he had on the ground, does anyone know anything about this?

Regards,
Ian.

Actually no.if you go back and still frame it you'll see there is actually a good foot and a half between the wing and the ground.. Afraid I dont know any particulars about Capt Johns though i can say tat a lot of new pilots lost their lives simply trying to learn to fly this thing. They probably grounded him for his own safety..

[warchild]

The Sopwith flies nicely.
Out of curiosity, do the guns work, and are there effects for them?

I'll have to dig out my Fred Flintstone walking attire for aid in stopping after it gets on the ground. :icon_lol:
I do not know OleBoy.. That is a decision for Craig to make.. I simply wish to make it fly properly.
Oh and, the walking attire is a good idea. For most of these biplanes there was no braking or steering. they needed at least one person on a wingtip to help pull them around into the wind as the rudders were quite useless on the ground..

[warchild]

LOL I'm very pleased ! I couldn't get the prop animation to accept the -1 in the aircraft.cfg no matter what I tried.

When your ready Pam I'll send Matt the updated flight model for him to test.
Thats awesome Craig.. Pauls going to do a few hours work on it here shortly and as soon as i get it back from him later today i'll send a fresh update too you.. :)..

[jetstreamsky]

Appears to fly like the killer it was in the right hands.

don't know if you seen this video, but there's some good info in it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g

[FlameOut]

Beautiful top-down flying sequence. :jump:

[Blood_Hawk23]

How do you get the torque effect to work in the flight dynamics?

I've been working on WWI aircraft and scenery for that past year or so for CFS2. One of the things that I've been wanting to replicate, is that snap turn to the right that the Camel had. The Snipe had it as well.

Is there a way to get that reaction in the aircraft.cfg?


A little historical bit.
Many new pilots died at the controls of the Camel. She had a nasty habit of spinning out of control.
Here is an example one such individual who died in this way.
http://www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/ww1_precurseurs/personnel_&_equipm/gustave_boel.htm

[MDIvey]

Pam... I loved flying the version I recieved yesterday (not that I had a lot of time to do so) .... once I realized you cant use high throttle settings on take off (3 or 4 crashes later)... once in the air... a great aircraft to fly

Matt

[delta558]

Hi Matt,

For this, I've set up a little profile within FSUIPC for my throttle to try and emulate the 'all or nothing' power situation. Effectively, the entire throttle range is in about the top 2cm of throttle lever movement. Also, by almost completely removing the propeller MOI, the response is much more instant. I've had the Camel on its back so many times it's unfunny because there is a fine line between flyable and not, but whatever Pam sent you has been flown like that, so taken off at full power - it's a case of learning the technique!

Paul.

[MDIvey]

I'm getting the hang of it Paul but I'm still having some prangs... I'm finding Its very improtant to be directly into the wind with this ...cross wind takes offs are a no no even when wind is not that strong

Matt

[jetstreamsky]

Just as mentioned in the landing sequence (7:56) in the Camel and Spitfire video, "even a small amount of crosswind" makes life tricky. :applause:

[FSX68]

Welll, as i just discovered, everyone is right, even when they seem wrong.. The torque depends quite a bit on acceleration rate. so during takeoff when all nine cylinders are being used the plane will rotate to port ( left from the pilots seat ) quite strongly, but, when only three cylinders are being used and the engine rpm is winding down, the pull is to the right, allowing an amazingly fast right hand roll.
I will admit that this is the first rotary engine i've worked on, and quite a few things like this have taken me by surprise.. The more i work on this plane the more i come to think of it less as a plane and more of an entity, with an attitude. I bet in the right hands, this thing could take down an F-15. One hell of a little contraption.
As for the number of cylinders in use, I specified that because the camel did not have a throttle.instead it had a switch on the magneto that aloowed the pilot to select three six or all nine cylinders. Thus ( i think ) the reason why camels always sound like they are dieing or cutting out. it was the pilot switching between cylinder settings to achieve and maintain a specific speed..

I notice the tight turns and to me it looked like it would be like white on rice in a dog fight. Was this WWI plane that agile? Looks awesome and I enjoyed the flick warchild.

[OleBoy]

Seeing the Sopwith in action is a real treat in itself. Times today I am sure leave very few, I would think that are truly air worthy. To also add, learning to fly them and get them back safely on the ground for another flight was just as much a challenge as the aerial dog fights they were involved in. That video was awesome.

[warchild]

yup, your right ole boy.. At most today, there are two, but the red white and blue one crashed into the side of a building while avoiding doing a ground loop. It isnt extensive damage but i dont know if it totaled the plane or not, so there may be only one.
just woke up from doing an all nighter on her.. Did some research too.. It seems like millions of others, i was incorrect.. Its not the torque that causes the plane to be a problem for newbies, its the landing gear. I and Paul were working with the wrong assumption. Now we've got to step back, tame it down in one way, and concentrate on adjusting contact points to duplicate the p[lane.. theres an amazing amount of modern day video available to pull from as well as some short hand calculus so theres a chance we can make this plane fly right after all..

[TuFun]

Just curious, has anyone flown a Camel in ROF? How close is it to the real aircraft? I have the basic package and flying only the Spad and Fokker DVII.

[warchild]

I havent played ROF yet to find out, so i really cant say. I do know that for myself, it took a pdf file that broke down basic rotary engine effects on an airframe and the mathematical explanation of the camels landing gear before i understood i was going in the wrong direction..
fortunately, my mistakes were easy to correct :)..
this is a sad video, but, it shows very well all the good bad and ugly of the sopwith..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nthF8_xEk

[delta558]

And here's another little vid of the work in progress:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bir78vFgXg&list=UUBYC9szhJLJXAUL78QR7Nqw&index=1

[full]

Nice videos ! I just shows how even an experienced pilot that has flown the Camel before can get into trouble very quickly....

[warchild]

Yes, with no trim at all, the pilot constantly had to have pressure on the stick and rudder to keep the plane on some sort of course. It was often said that a Camel was never flown in the direction it was pointed., and i'd believe it.. The camel was known to be marginally stable. just the smallest error could cause dramatic consequences. its Cg was low, but the wing design and the rotational forces forced the plane to more or less hang from its upper wing. Add to that a heavy tail that had a habit of pushing its way around turns and loops and you had a plane that was very much like an 1917 version of an f-4 phantom, with guns.. the landing gear was the deadliest though. i'll admit i'm still researching this aspect of the plane, but the landing gear had the potential of bouncing the aircraft into ground loops at the drop of a hat.. Over all, the Sopwith was a horrible plane to fly, but that became a badge to be worn proudly by the pilots that flew it. As Biggles once said, "If you can fly a Sopwith Camel, you can fly anything."

[TuFun]

Ok, I tried flying the one in ROF. Very difficult aircraft to fly. I will stick to my Spad.