Slightly OT: Flight Schools

[CybrSlydr]

As I get out of the Army, I'm looking at going to a flight school to get my PPL then use the VA to help me get my degree and Commercial license.

Since this is a flight sim forum, I figured some of you might fly IRL and would have some suggestions. The end-state goal of this is bush pilot. The Army is giving me severance pay, so I'll have a chunk to use to pay for it all when I get out.

Do you guys know of schools or training facilities to recommend? Thanks for the input. :) FSX might turn out to be an invaluable training aid once I figure some things out.

[rdaniell]

As I get out of the Army, I'm looking at going to a flight school to get my PPL then use the VA to help me get my degree and Commercial license.

Since this is a flight sim forum, I figured some of you might fly IRL and would have some suggestions. The end-state goal of this is bush pilot. The Army is giving me severance pay, so I'll have a chunk to use to pay for it all when I get out.

Do you guys know of schools or training facilities to recommend? Thanks for the input. :) FSX might turn out to be an invaluable training aid once I figure some things out.

You might want to look into a College or University that offers a degree in aviation management. You can be working on your PPL and degree at the same time. At some of them you can graduate with a degree and a commercial license. None of the colleges that I've taught at had this program so I can't offer any first hand advice about any particular college/university.

RD

[CybrSlydr]

You might want to look into a College or University that offers a degree in aviation management. You can be working on your PPL and degree at the same time. At some of them you can graduate with a degree and a commercial license. None of the colleges that I've taught at had this program so I can't offer any first hand advice about any particular college/university.

RD

Ohio State has this sort of thing. The issue is that the Vocational Rehab program I'd be using to pay for the degree and license doesn't pay for the PPL. I have to get that on my own. So I would be paying out of pocket to get my PPL and then using the Vocational Rehab program to pay for the Degree and Commercial licenses.

Cost is the main issue I'm running into mostly as I have a fixed amount to spend but no solid idea on total cost. :)

[bstolle]

You might want to look into a College or University that offers a degree in aviation management.

If being a Bushpilot is his target (great decision BTW IMO) a College or University degree is definitely not required (or even desirable)

[rdaniell]

Cost is the main issue I'm running into mostly as I have a fixed amount to spend but no solid idea on total cost. :)

I understand that....OK...your first goal is to get the PPL. I'd stay away from flight schools for that. Find you a CFI at a local airport somewhere who will teach you to fly. There used to be all kinds of self study programs to help you pass the written test. My CFII was in his 80s when I got my PPL. No formal ground school. He ordered me some books from......believe it or not "ACME" I made a 98 on my first test attempt. Passed the check ride with no problems. Again this ole fellow's approach was to teach his students how to fly. Another believe it or not....he never had a student to fail their check ride.

Bstolle, I agree with your statement about a degree not being necessary. However, it is a nice thing to have later in life should a person want to change careers.

RD

[TeaSea]

If being a Bushpilot is his target (great decision BTW IMO) a College or University degree is definitely not required (or even desirable)

No, but respectfully, for his GI Bill it is......

CybrSlydr you will need to enroll in an accredited program for your GI Bill to apply (you can't go to a local FBO and start flying with a CFI). However, if you're in a degree program, and a PPL, commercial, twin, and commercial rating is part of that, then the Bill covers it (this is a recent change....previously the Bill would not cover the basic license...it would cover all subsequent ratings however...I've no idea why it was that way). Remember also that the Bill pays a good chunk of your housing as well, which is probably a bigger bonus (people tend to forget that). So you're generally talking a University or Technical school that has an "Accredited" program. Look there first and do no hesitate to shop around.

Since you've suffered an injury, ensure you can pass the Class I physical for commercial flying. No point in trying to become a commercial pilot if you're going to fail the physical every year. They have gotten easier regards disabilities of late, but anything cardiac is automatically suspect (blood pressure, murmers, etc). I personally would go for what I want to do, but ensure I had a good back up plan.

Also, DO NOT lose your patience with the GI Bill process....it can be a pain and requires a bit of patience and you must have your sh*t straight....but it does kick in and once it's running you need only touch their web site once a month or so. My experience with most Veteran's who complain about the VA or the GI Bill is that they don't have the patience, the records, or the inclination to do what they must do.

One other bit of advice.....I know you were hit downrange....but if you can stay in the Reserve Component, do so. That can be Guard or Army Reserve, or even another Service's Reserve Component, but do not walk away from that unless you are physically unable to stay in. You will not regret that later. Also, whether you know it or not, you're addicted to the adrenalin. I'm sure the veteran's in the forum will weigh in on this, but I constantly compare what I do in my civilian life with what I did in the service and while I have a fulfilling and enjoyable career, I ALWAYS come up short (and I work in DOD right now). Many of our RC personnel at my current job are on tour for that same reason. They have jobs and responsibilities elsewhere, but they have to come back for their "fix" periodically.

If you're interested in an Air Guard unit in GA, FL, or IL I can put in touch with some folks....might have to become a commo geek......but it's fun (they also give you money for education).

P.S. FSX is an excellent training aid.

P.P.S. I know the "bush pilots" depicted on these reality shows seem to be seat of the pants flyers and renegades, but when you peel it back you find most of them are pretty well educated. Remember your Infantry Battalion commander probably had at least a Master's Degree and will likely be going onto the War College for another one. My Brigade CSM has two Master's under his belt and is preparing for a Doctorate program. I myself am working on my second Master's and Air War College (and I was a an Army dude). What' I'm trying to say is...you need that.

[CybrSlydr]

The GI Bill would be great, but I don't have it - I chose the Loan Repayment Program instead of the GI Bill so I don't have any of those benefits. Vocational Rehab is about it as far as educational aids I have once I get out.

You are correct that I'd prefer to get my commercial without having to get a degree, but the only way the Vocational Rehab program will pay for it is if it's part of a degree program.

rdaniell - thanks for the suggestion. Columbus International is about the closest Airport I have.

TeaSea - wow, great post man - thank you! However, I did talk with the Vocational Rehab lady on Friday and she said it would NOT cover the PPL portion - I have to get that on my own. When I went for the subsequent licenses as part of a degree program, it would cover it.

Unfortunately, I can't do Guard or Reserve - I was rated as "Unfit to Continue Service" during my MEB, so Military life is done. I also talked to an FAA Rep in Baton Rouge and she says there's no reason with my hardware and impairment that I couldn't fly. She gave me the name of a doctor in Orange TX who would do the Flight Physical for me. So I'm waiting for some paperwork from a physician here that I need to take to him so he can do the flight physical. Once I pass that, then I'm pretty much good to go - just need to find a cost-effective way to get the PPL. :)

[olderndirt]

Factor in also that the flight physical requirements become more stringent as you advance in the ratings. Your physician will explain those when you go for the first.

[evvatc]

I know Louisiana Tech in Ruston has/had an aviation program. Might check them out.

[CybrSlydr]

I know Louisiana Tech in Ruston has/had an aviation program. Might check them out.No, as soon as I can, I'm leaving Louisiana. I hate it here. Can't wait to get back up North.

[srgalahad]

While not totally applicable (both are in Canada) a look at Mount Royal University and Selkirk College aviation programs will give you an idea of the content and path for this sort of training.
http://selair.selkirk.ca/Pilot_Careers/index.html
http://www.mtroyal.ca/ProgramsCourses/FacultiesSchoolsCentres/Business/Programs/AviationDiploma/index.htm

(and they both have some valuable links to training aids) Note that both require a PPL for admission, but have information about obtaining same.
I'm sure that with a bunch of digging you should be able to find similar programs in the US although some like Embry Riddle and Purdue are likely at the high end of the price scale. Smaller, more regional schools may be a better choice.

Qualification and experience requirements to work as a pilot vary with the hiring needs ( more need, lower hours req'd, etc) but one truism from Ice Pilots NWT holds in many cases in the bush -be prepared to sling bags, pump fuel and clean up puke while working your way into a pilot's seat (again, requirements may vary :icon_lol: ). Whle the 'white shirt airlines' may put a lot of credence in resumes, the bush type expect you to prove your commitment.

ON the other hand, some things go against the plan... a school friend of mine got his PPL alongside me (via Air Cadets) and went on to get his Commercial but the hiring cycle was low so he went another direction and became an aviation Wx forecaster. One day on holidays he was literally standing on a dock in BC talking to a pilot/owner about flying, interest and experiences. The owner said something to the effect of: "Do you have a float endorsement? No? Well, if you can get one in a week I have a job for you". He did, (quit his gov't weather job) got the job flying a 180 in BC on logging and tourist flights, then on to the Beaver. He retired last year from Air Canada on 767's.

[mike_cyul]

Away from the formal side of things, I would think that investing in precision off-airport skills would be useful if you really wanted to hit all the pegs for bush flying. Perhaps something like taking the courses here: http://www.cubdriver749er.com/


Mike

[CybrSlydr]

Many thanks for the input folks!!! :)

[TeaSea]

You're on your first enlistment I presume?

You are eligible to opt in on the Bill if you're on #2. Either way, keep an eye on it, it changes frequently.

[CybrSlydr]

Yeah, just my first. My 2 yr mark was back in August.

[rvn817j]

UND has a long established (and well recognized) aviation program. From a financial perspective, the state is well run and has a good economy now due to energy (oil, gas, etc.). (As an aside, the price of real world aircraft is very low now. If you have funds saved (or that severance) you might consider acquiring an aircraft.)

[CybrSlydr]

UND has a long established (and well recognized) aviation program. From a financial perspective, the state is well run and has a good economy now due to energy (oil, gas, etc.). (As an aside, the price of real world aircraft is very low now. If you have funds saved (or that severance) you might consider acquiring an aircraft.)

Well, unfortunately, I've only been in about 2.5yrs, so my severance isn't much - $12k and some change. It's going to cost a little less than that to get my license. For S&Gs I looked at some prices on SuperCubs and HOLY ****. Those things are around $100k.

The plan, for now, is PPL with severance and then use the Vocational Rehab to get my degree and Commercial rating. Had lunch with a CW3 who suggested a job at an FBO to rub some elbows with pilots and join a few organizations (EAA, AOPA, CAP) to get networking and try to find some PIC hours on the cheap.

[fliger747]

I have a cub and yes it is about 100k. However there are many champs, pacers etc that are less than 30K. Planes hold their value.

If there is a will, there is a way.

Good luck. T

[CybrSlydr]

I have a cub and yes it is about 100k. However there are many champs, pacers etc that are less than 30K. Planes hold their value.

If there is a will, there is a way.

Good luck. T

Oh really? I'm not familiar with Champs, Pacers, etc - have some links?

[Victory103]

As someone in the used market now, I do agree you can find something for <30k, but don't forget all the other parts of aircraft ownership that go along with it (insurance, hangar/spot, engine fund, annual and right now...GAS).

[johndetrick]

I don't want to rain on your parade, but now is probably the worst time ever to become a commercial pilot. I should know, as I am one. Until very recently I was flying B767's. My company did a very deep furlough and I was caught up in it. So now I'm pounding the streets competing with all the other unemployed pilots out there. And there are more than you think. There are many reasons for the over abundance of pilots. The franchised educational system always hyping the "looming pilot shortage",they have been selling that premise for 30 years or more. The raising of the mandatory retirement age to 65 didn't help any. The continuing merger process and consolidation of fleets continues to shorten the list of pilots actually needed. And certainly the race to the bottom for salaries is a contributing factor. There are so many people out there who will literally fly for free to build time or for the love of it, that it is tough to find a flying job that actually pays a decent wage.

And now you into the mix the congressional mandate that first officers for any airline require 1500 hours and the ATP, you can see that it will be a long time before your hired. And then for minimum wage if your lucky. This requirement is even trickling down to non airline operators who in the past would hire you if you had the Comm ME Inst with a few hundred hours. Now the insurance companies are demanding the same standards for the non airline flying jobs.

Here is an example of the salary you may enjoy a fairly well known commuter airline. The airline is MESA and the data was taken from Airline Pilot Central.

Starting FO turbrop hourly rate is 19 dollars per hour. A guarantee of 76 hours. The guarantee is the minimum amount you will be paid for. If you fly 20 hours you still get paid for 76. Those days don't exist. You will fly the 76 and maybe more. It doesn't sound like much does it?
Your clock starts when the parking brake is released and stops when the parking brake is set. When you show an hour and half before your flight, you are not on the clock. When you are waiting 4 hours between flights, your not on the clock. My last sequence of trips that I flew before my furlough were relatively easy. Show up at 1 am for a 3 am go, fly 3.5 hours to Port of Spain, Trinidad hang around for the cargo unloading and loading and then back to MIA. That was usually a 12 hour day. That was an easy day. With the commuters, you add in 4 or 5 legs a day and you are beat at the end of it. All that for 1330 dollars a month.

I really hate to think how much money I have tied up in my licenses. In addition to the pilots licenses, I have my FE license and A&P licenses as well. I didn't attend a big college with high tuition. I kind of did it the old fashioned way. I think that I probably have 50,000 plus dollars
invested in all my certificates.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to rain on your parade. But I want to give you a honest assessment of what you may be getting into. It's not a glamorous life or profession. It's a ruthless dog eat dog world. We have a saying that the aviation industry "eats it's young".
Having said all that I've said, as far as I'm concerned, there's not a better job out there. The view out the window is incredible, and the challenges you face on a daily basis would make many people whimper in fear. I didn't mean to make this a long reply, but oh well it is what it is. If you want any more info please feel free to pm me.

[rvn817j]

JohnD is correct about the pearls and perils of the aviation business. After completing active duty in the US Navy, I worked for many years in the airline business (I'll just say I was in management). Since the time I started at Eastern Airlines in 1985, the airlines have been merging. Each time they merge, one less management is needed. I managed to stay in the business for 20 years before I got "merged" out. It is a business that requires you to make lots of decisions quickly, but it is hugely exciting with a great view (out the cockpit window) most times. I was lucky enough to get a job back in the the defense industry, but with sequestration looming, even that is tenuous. Avoiding problems in today's job market / economy is almost impossible.

Pick a profession you are passionate about and you will never be sorry!

The first plane I owned was a Chief (Aeronca), then a Citabria and now an RV-8. The Citabria was a great plane that I would recommend to a beginner / intermediate owner. Again, if it's your passion, one figures out a way to do it! Best of luck to you.

[CybrSlydr]

Thank you both for your replies!

I'm not looking to become an Airline pilot - I'm happy with sticking to the small outfits that ferry out hunters or hikers or supplies in remote areas. I don't have the desire to fly hundreds of people thousands of miles on a trip in a 767 or similar.

I'm not looking to get rich either - just have enough I can pay my bills and enjoy the time I have off. The CW3 I spoke with the other day said many similar things that you guys said - however, I'm now a member of the EAA and AOPA, so hopefully I can start drumming up some contacts in those circles.