Baseboard versus Radiant Quartz heat......

[OBIO]

Our apartment (one side of a duplex that is a modular construction with SUPERB insulation) has convection baseboard heat. Two of them do not work properly....get WAY too hot and pose a severe fire risk. Our electric bill last winter was not at all bad....but then again, we had a fairly mild winter. Still, the baseboard heat just doesn't make the house feel nice and toasty. 72 degrees still feels chilly because everything in the house is cold to the touch.

This year, I am thinking about buying 3 Duraflame quartz infrared heaters with fans. Each unit is rated at 5200 BTU and will heat a space of 1000 square feet. The units have 6 quartz infrared elements rated at 20,000 to 25,000 hours of life, copper heat exchangers and ultra quite fans that move the air at a speed of 6 meters per second. High efficiency filters clean the air before it enters the heat chamber. The external surfaces of the units stay cool to the touch and are pet and child safe.

The first floor of the apartment is pretty much open space. Living room and kitchen are mostly one room....there is a wall between the two rooms.....but the opening is 60 to 70% of that wall...maybe even more than that....more opening than wall space......there is a short hallway back to the down stairs half bath/laundry room. Total square footage of the first floor is around 520 to 540 square feet. There are ceiling fans in the living room and the kitchen to help circulate the heat throughout the space.

Upstairs....two 13 by 13 foot bedrooms, full bath and a small nookie area. Each of the bedrooms (one is our actual bedroom and the other is our office/computer/fish tank room) will get a heating unit of its own. Most likely smaller units....not the full size 5200 BTU/1000 square foot sized ones.

I know that these infrared quartz heaters are energy efficient and Duraflame invented them, perfected them, and build the best ones on the market....right here in the US of A and cover them with 3 year warranties. Prices on the full sized 5200 BUT units are not bad....found them online for $199 plus shipping (for a total of 229.48...cheaper than Walmart has them...plus this site has NO SALES TAX!).

Would this idea be feasible? Using three infrared quartz heaters to heat our not-even 1100 square foot home instead of the baseboard heaters? I have run this around in my head for the last several days and have not come up with any reason that this would not work, would not give us a warmer and more comfortable home and would not save on electric charges.

Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler? Beuhler?

The unit in question:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200485278_200485278


OBIO

[TARPSBird]

I suspect Hey_Moe will give you some good feedback on this during daylight hours tomorrow. HVAC is his line of work. But you've pretty much sold me on getting one of those quartz heaters for our living room. Since the wife came home from rehab after her stroke she lives in the LR, I'd be able to keep her comfy while not making the furnace heat the entire house to the same temperature.

[OBIO]

Tarps

I have just spent the last 10 minutes or so reading the reviews on this heater....there were some negative ones....but by far....99% or so....were positive......lots and lots of very happy users...lots of folks who have saved A LOT of money on heating their homes using these....some folks using just these to heat their homes and keeping their furnaces turned way down low and not even kicking on.

OBIO

[Tako_Kichi]

We live in a house that is now a single dwelling but was once an upstairs/downstairs split duplex. Prior to that it was an agricultural tractor garage downstairs with an apartment upstairs. Insulation is minimal (well below what it would need to comply with modern codes) and concrete floors and walls downstairs means that keeping it warm in winter is a major task as it leaks heat like there is no tomorrow.

The heating comprises of a natural gas space heater in the kitchen and a natural gas fireplace upstairs. These single heat sources are supposed to heat all the rooms on each floor, that's five rooms downstairs and 5 upstairs! Needless to say we have to use supplemental heaters in some rooms to stay on top of the heat loss. We leave doors open on most rooms in the hope that some heat will circulate into the distant corners and we are thankful that the larger of the two bathrooms is off the kitchen so it gets heated via convection from the space heater in the kitchen but even so it can still get chilly in the depths of a Canadian winter.

The best supplemental heaters we've found so far are oil filled radiators (the plug-in type on wheels). They are cheap to operate, not too expensive to buy and they really kick out the heat. Admittedly they do get hot to the touch so may not be suitable with toddlers around but when the grand-kids visit we make sure they cannot get direct access to the heaters if they are on. The pets (two cats and a dog) have learned not to get close to them but will curl up beside them and toast nicely, even turning at intervals to ensure one side doesn't get cooked more than the other! :icon_lol:

[Naismith]

Try looking for the reviews at CostCo, many people report the unit is expensive to run. There is a similar product the Duraflame powerheater - not sure if that is the same and just rebranded up here but that gets very poor overall reviews. At least with Costco you can try and return no Q's asked if it fails to impress.

[rpjkw]

Interesting topic, Obio. I've been entertaining ideas similar to your. We just bought a condo in Florida. The unit has 3br, 3 bath, plus a "den" (really a fourth BR without a closet). The balcony is 35' wide by 12' deep and several units have owner installed windows for "winter" use supposedly easily removed for summer, with screen inserts to replace the windows. We'll be moving to Palm Coast, half-way between Saint Augustine and Daytona so there are 21/2-3 seasons. I've been thinking about a way to warm the area with a portable heater(s) without breaking the bank. Your idea sounds like it could work nicely. We'll move in this January, but it's something to think about for next year.

So I'll be following this thread closely.

Bob

[hey_moe]

I have never been a fan of portable heaters. If you look at it this way it will give you a better understanding. Most living rooms,dining rooms,dens bedrooms are on a 15 amp breaker. The way electricians wire houses you hardly have enough power in the rooms to do squat. This is why when ya pop a breaker it knocks out more that one room. Those heaters should be on a separate circuit. Most people that the breakers that keep popping...they up it to a twenty amp or thirty amp. The only thing that is being done here is a fire waiting to happen. These portable heaters are designed to take the chill out of the air. Kinda like if you are watching TV and your feet get cold ya turn these on to get them warmed up and then shut it off. This winter pay attention when a house catches fire or has a fire in one of the rooms. Most of the time those small heaters either over heated the outlet or they were to close to something flammable. Another way to look at this is when someone sets up a Christmas tree and has all the lights plugged into a outlet that can't handle the load...you already know what happens. You said the heater gets to hot so you didn't want to use it. The radiator has a thermostat in it that prevents it from getting to hot. Those heaters against the walls are 220 volts and should heat the room right. They are also on a separate circuit too. Gas will always be the best heat. The cheapest heat and air condition is a water source Heat-pump. Because they are using ground water and the temp is never above 55 degs. But they are the most expensive too. If you don't have natural gas where you live then go to bottle gas. Gas and oil heat has about 120 to 135 degs coming out of the vents. Heat-pumps have around 80 to 100 degs coming out of the vents. This is the main reason customer complain about cold heat on a HP. The freeze line is just before Jacksonville Florida. Thats why when they tried to use HP's up north they never worked right...lol. My only suggestion here would be before ya look at buying a portable heater make sure the line can handle the amperage you are trying to run it on. This is just my opinion, I am sure we have members in here that praise the portable heater. I have seen first handle what they can do to a customers house. I'm not a know it all so do what you think is right and read up on them some more.

[gradyhappyg]

What Moe said.
That heater is rated at 12.5 amp. draw and on a 15 amp. curcuit thats not leaving a whole lot of wiggle room.
Just flip on a couple of 100 watt light bulbs on the same curcuit and you're over loading the breaker/fuse.
Cheaper in the long run to get someone to check the thermostats on the baseboard units sounds like they are sticking..

[OBIO]

The two baseboard heaters in question, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom, both get way too hot.....the one in the kitchen gets so hot that the vinyl tile on the floor as been turned yellowish all the way out about 2 feet and the wall above the heater has been discolored. The one in the bedroom got hot enough at some point before we moved in that it melted the window blind above it.

I have no idea who to call to have these heaters looked at.....do I call a heating specialist or do I call an electrician? The landlord doesn't seem like he is going to have them looked at.....in his mind they still work since they put out heat....and I told him about these last winter. Heck, there is shingle damage in one area of the roof that happened during an April storm....I have reminded him about that 3 or 4 times since and still the missing shingles are still missing.

I don't know enough about electric baseboard heaters to monkey with them....if I did, I would have them fixed already.

So...the portable heaters are not a good idea....hadn't thought about the amperage and wiring issues.

So, what can I do to get more efficiency out of the baseboard heaters? How can I get the house feeling warm and toasty instead of chilly feeling all the time?

Tim

[hey_moe]

Tim sounds like you have a real dickhead for a land lord which is something I deal with all the time. Some of these land lords could careless about the renters safety.Most of them want the cheapest repair or jerry rig the equipment in the house. You can go down to Lowe's,Home Depot or any HVAC wholesale company and they should be able to tell you how hot the surface of the wall heater should be. Then check yours. Also how old is the house and the strip heaters. In the old days those heaters really got hot. The new ones don't get nowhere as near hot as older ones. The yellowing of the vinyl floor is normal on those older strip heat. I don't know if you can remember the old style oil and gas floor heaters, but those use to get so hot if you walked on them barefooted they would leave burn marks on the bottom of your feet. OSHA made the manufactures installed thermostats and safety thermostat to prevent them from getting hot. Now the max temp is 140degs. If you really think it is that unsafe call the fire dept or your city inspector. If they feel it is defective enough to start a fire they will red tag the meter or put a safety lock out on the breaker, contact the landlord and give him 30 days to repair it. I hope you are on good terms with your landlord cus he can make it kinda sticky for you if ya go in that direction. Look on the fuse or breaker panel and see what ampeage the panel is. Most houses are between 100 to 250 amp panel. Also is your stove and HW Heater electic or gas. Also how old is the house?

[stansdds]

The two baseboard heaters in question, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom, both get way too hot.....the one in the kitchen gets so hot that the vinyl tile on the floor as been turned yellowish all the way out about 2 feet and the wall above the heater has been discolored. The one in the bedroom got hot enough at some point before we moved in that it melted the window blind above it.

I have no idea who to call to have these heaters looked at.....do I call a heating specialist or do I call an electrician? The landlord doesn't seem like he is going to have them looked at.....in his mind they still work since they put out heat....and I told him about these last winter. Heck, there is shingle damage in one area of the roof that happened during an April storm....I have reminded him about that 3 or 4 times since and still the missing shingles are still missing.

I don't know enough about electric baseboard heaters to monkey with them....if I did, I would have them fixed already.

So...the portable heaters are not a good idea....hadn't thought about the amperage and wiring issues.

So, what can I do to get more efficiency out of the baseboard heaters? How can I get the house feeling warm and toasty instead of chilly feeling all the time?

Tim

Whoa! If the floor tile and wall are discoloring, that heater is running waaaaaaay too hot. It's probably the control unit that's gone bad. Electric baseboard heaters are not particularly expensive items, I'd guess that it will cost just as much to fix one as it would to replace the whole heater. As for who to call, I'd start with a heating and air company. As for efficiency, electric baseboard is generally radiant heat only, so the heat produced does not warm the floors, just the wall and air surrounding the heater. A lot of portable heaters have fans to blow the warm air out and across a floor or room. I couldn't say which is more effective or less expensive to operate.

[srgalahad]

Tim, I'm certainly not an electrician nor an expert but here are a few thoughts after a quick web search:

First, a very simple overview from Big Brother ( DOE) http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/electric-resistance-heating

Second, a fast run at the Home Depot and Lowe's websites found a lot of options and, as Moe said, they will certainly ( maybe with a bit of prodding) have a bunch of info about the heaters and perhaps more important, the thermostats as well as hints about whom to contact for an inspection or suggestions.
Typical heater - read the reviews and comments
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cadet-6-ft-1-500-watt-240-volt-electric-baseboard-heater-white-6f1500w.html#.UHhWYlGBxR-

Another sample of listings
http://www.lowes.com/Heating-Cooling/Baseboard-Heaters-Accessories/Electric-Baseboard-Heaters/_/N-1z0zq4q/pl


Since the last time I had to deal with these beasts (in our winter climate they are not practical except in the highest-insulated homes - usually apartment-condos) there has been some development. The latest is the "hydronic" versions which seem to add in the guts and benefits of the recirculating oil/liquid portable heaters Larry mentioned.

If the heaters are working hard enough to get overly hot then I'd be looking hard for a cure as it may not only be a temperature problem in winter, but overheated electrics are not good at any time. It's also a sign that you are putting through a lot of watts that don't seem to be effectively heating the rooms.

BTW, if your landlord keeps dragging his heels, ask him for a copy of the property's fire insurance policy "just for reference"

[OBIO]

These houses....actually two 2-dwelling duplexes.....were built between 10 and 14 years ago....really nice places overall. The places are insulated like crazy. The outside walls are built using 2X6 instead of 2X4 and have the spray in expanding foam insulation, double pane windows. The manufacturer rating on the walls is R20 and on the ceiling/roof is R30. Everything is electric (heat, water heater, stove/oven, and clothes dryer). No gas at all. Our highest winter electric bill last year was about 130 dollars....which is not bad considering the amount of electronics, fish tanks, TVs and such we have running. Our highest summer electric bill, running 2 12,000 BTU window AC units and one 5500 BTU window AC unit, along with all the other stuff, was 120 or so....and that was an "estimated" reading. I know that our AC is overkill for a highly insulated 1000 to 1100 square foot home...but it sure felt good knowing that our AC units were not working at max to keep our house cool and comfortable. They would run for 10 minutes, shut off, stay off for 30 to 45 minutes, then kick back on.

I will contact the landlord to see if he will get someone in to fix the two baseboard units....if not, I will get someone in to do it and deduct the repair bill from the rent. He isn't a bad landlord....just highly forgetful. Last spring we had a water pipe break in the upstairs bathroom and he had a professional plumper here within a couple of hours....luckily we were home when the pipe cracked and I was able to get the water shut off a couple minutes after the leak started...otherwise there would have been a ton of water damage done.

Tim

[hey_moe]

Tim if I got a electric bill that low our electric company would pull the meter to see what is wrong with it...lol My summer bills are around 350.00 to 500.00. I run the pool pump 24/7 we also run both central air 24/7 and two one ton window units about every day and night in the summer. In the winter our gas bill is cheap because both Linda and I like it very cold. The electric bill in the winter is between 70 to 100 bucks....big drop from the summer huh? I have worked all my life and I refuse to be uncomfortable in the summer. I sweat all day long in the summer so when I go home I wanna stay chilly.:mixedsmi:

[robert41]

We have these infrared heaters at work, in the shop, my opinion is they suck. They heat objects but not the air. I remember one time we left a chunk of snow/ice on the floor overnight, and in the morning, it was still there. We also have one natural gas heated air exchanger, that everybody uses as a furnace, to put some heat into the shop. And does a pretty good job.
A natural gas furnace is the way to go.