Helo "Long Distance" Flying

[falcon409]

Watching "Coast Guard Alaska" last night got me to thinking about this very idea. They traveled around 130nm to a boat in distress that had run aground on the rocks. Winds in the area were running around 90kts, basically making it impossible to do two things at once, lol. The stayed on-sight talking to the Captain until they were as low as they could dare "fuel-wise" and then flew all the way back to Kodiak. This same scenario was repeated by 3 or 4 different crews all night until the weather improved early the next morning and they finally were able to rescue the 4 men.

I rarely fly Helo's any further than 30nm, it's tedious, boring, slow. . .did I mention boring, yea and slow (you get my drift). So for all the FSX Helo types, does anyone ever strap on a Helo and fly great distances like these guys do (on a regular basis)? I have tried a few times to utilize the so-called "Helo Autopilots" and none ever worked for me. . .besides, I kinda saw that as "cheating" just a bit so I never really pushed trying to get them to work, but that would be the only way I'd ever fly beyond my 30mile limit.

So what say you all?

[Tako_Kichi]

I have been known to fly up to 150 Nm (particularly on RTWR legs) but I prefer sub-50 Nm jaunts. As to slow, many helos are faster than GA aircraft especially the Blackhawk, Chinook and Apache.

[SeanTK]

Similar to Tako's response, within 50nm I'm fine. I'll occasionally push things further but it does get boring. I would not consider an autopilot cheating as many mid-size on up helicopters have them. (I've flown in a few).

Regarding airspeed, I've seen anything between 110 to 150ish knots indicated during cruise with my selection of helicopters. Depends on the type.

[Dave Torkington]

I have tried a few times to utilize the so-called "Helo Autopilots" and none ever worked for me. . .

Same experience for me too Falcon - have you tried the folks over at Hovercontrol? If anyone knows they will!

http://www.hovercontrol.com/

Dave :salute:

[Dain Arns]

Watching "Coast Guard Alaska" last night got me to thinking about this very idea. They traveled around 130nm to a boat in distress that had run aground on the rocks. Winds in the area were running around 90kts, basically making it impossible to do two things at once, lol. The stayed on-sight talking to the Captain until they were as low as they could dare "fuel-wise" and then flew all the way back to Kodiak. This same scenario was repeated by 3 or 4 different crews all night until the weather improved early the next morning and they finally were able to rescue the 4 men.

I rarely fly Helo's any further than 30nm, it's tedious, boring, slow. . .did I mention boring, yea and slow (you get my drift). So for all the FSX Helo types, does anyone ever strap on a Helo and fly great distances like these guys do (on a regular basis)? I have tried a few times to utilize the so-called "Helo Autopilots" and none ever worked for me. . .besides, I kinda saw that as "cheating" just a bit so I never really pushed trying to get them to work, but that would be the only way I'd ever fly beyond my 30mile limit.

So what say you all?

The military, oil rig transportation, and some EMS operators have been using autopilot systems for years.

How can it be "cheating" when autopilots are used in real world helicopter operations?
I couldn't image oil rig transports not using one when crossing the ocean.
Its used to reduce the workload on pilots just like fixed wing operations.
By your statement fixed wing pilots should be considered "cheating" too then? :icon_lol:
(I'm not being serious here, folks)

Get the best helicopter autopilot gauge designed by a real world AS332 pilot himself here:
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/general.html
(Click on the image on that page to start how to install the gauge)

I have the Cougar autopilot installed in Helicopters that do have autopilot system available either as standard or optional equipment in FSX.
The ones that don't, I use the trimming system that comes with FS Force. (Yes, helicopters can be trimmed to reduce the force on the cyclic).

Don't fly at high altitudes AGL.
This is one mistake I see a lot of people do on servers.
We were on a group flight one night on the HC server years ago, flying along the Oregon coast.
A new guy kept climbing to 9000' while the group was staying 500' off the deck.
He finally threw in the towel. He couldn't understand why he couldn't keep up.

Helicopters are not fixed wings.
They don't get better performance the higher you go, it gets worse.
You're not going to get more mileage or range.
Helicopters don't calculate range in miles anyway, it's minutes remaining of fuel. :icon_lol:

Operate about 1500 feet AGL max, (like I've been advised by a couple real world helicopters pilots to do, well, because that's what they do).
More air means more speed.

Fly NOE, nap of the earth, if you still don't want to use an autopliot.
I can guarantee you won't get too bored dodging trees on a long flight. :icon_lol:

[Tako_Kichi]

Fly NOE, nap of the earth, if you still don't want to use an autopliot.
I can guarantee you won't get too bored dodging trees on a long flight. :icon_lol:

LOL...my virtual maintenance crew are always whining about tree clippings in the intakes! :icon_lol:

[jeansy]

i use a autopilot most of the time,

it allows me to sit back and drink brews and get yelled at by the mrs for sitting at the computer again

beside the mrs, never had a problem with the autopilot I use

This is what I use

http://www.hovercontrol.com/cgi-bin/ifolio/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=FSX_Panels_and_Gauges&image=HC075DI_FSX_COUGAR_AUTOPILOT.zip&img=&tt=zip

install the files where it says you need to

even thou, it says you dont have to do the following, I found you do

you need the autopilot setting to each of your helo aircraft.cfg

I just insert the following regardless


[autopilot]
autopilot_available=1
flight_director_available=0
default_vertical_speed=1800.000000
autothrottle_available=1
autothrottle_arming_required=1
autothrottle_takeoff_ga=1
autothrottle_max_rpm=90.000000
pitch_takeoff_ga=8.000000
max_pitch=10.000000
max_pitch_acceleration=1.000000
max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt=2.000000
max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt=1.500000
max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt_breakpoint=20000.000000
max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt_breakpoint=28000.000000
max_bank=25.000000
max_bank_acceleration=1.800000
max_bank_velocity=3.000000
max_throttle_rate=0.100000
nav_proportional_control=9.000000
nav_integrator_control=0.250000
nav_derivative_control=0.000000
nav_integrator_boundary=2.500000
nav_derivative_boundary=0.000000
gs_proportional_control=9.520000
gs_integrator_control=0.260000
gs_derivative_control=0.000000
gs_integrator_boundary=0.700000
gs_derivative_boundary=0.000000
yaw_damper_gain=0.000000


then I add the following to every panel.cfg remembering to change the window number as required and



[Window Titles]
blah blah blah
Window02=AP

blah blah blah

[Window02]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=300,300
window_size_ratio=1.000
position=0
visible=1
ident=80
window_size= 0.300, 0.330
window_pos= 0.700, 0.360

gauge00=AS532AFCP!AFCP,0,130,300,131,afcp.cfg
gauge01=AS532AFCP!Annunciator,0,0,300,130
gauge02=HAP!HAP,193,132,8,8,ap1.cfg


some things you need to know,as well, otherwise it wont engage or disengage

if the helo has park brakes, they need to be off
dont key the brake key otherwise it will disengage while its keyed
you need to be above 200ft
you need to be going over 40kts
the hover option if affected by wind, so you will drift over long periods of time depending on the wind

if you have flight sim commander the "fly to" button automatically updates the AP heading same with flight plans

this AP system ****s over some of the autopilots some of the developers supply IMO

[stovall]

Thanks Jeansy, I love helos but just get tired and bored on the long flights. This autopilot could definitely help that.

I just recently took a cruise to Kodiak and have been itching to fly out of the Coast Guard station there. Definitely a huge Coast Guard base on Kodiak. 3000 plus service men stationed there.

I will definitely give this a try.

[robertorizzo]

More or less the same here. I placed some ships, carriers and tankers sailing in the Persian Gulf as AI. So i can take my Sea King or the 212 and, by autopilot I fly to them. BTW i installed the sylvain Tacan/ils device gauge to find them overthere. Oilrigs, are another great way to enjoy helos, low flying.

[bstolle]

I rarely fly Helo's any further than 30nm, it's tedious, boring, slow. . .did I mention boring, yea and slow (you get my drift)

30NM? R U serious? Vienna - Singapore is more than 5200NM....THAT's long distance....quite happy that I made the (almost unprecedented) decision switch from the 767 to A320 :)
Should be back to short/medium range in 2 to 3 month

[PRB]

In my real job I'm learning about the systems in the CH-47F. That's the new one with the glass cockpit. The autopilot in that thing will take you from cruise to a hover, in X,Y, and Z coordinates. It's friggen amazing. The only thing they need to add to the auto pilot is the dog (to make sure the pilot's don't touch anything...:icon_lol:)

[FAC257]

I use the same auto-pilot file that Jeansy pointed to and have it installed on all three default helos. It's a good thing, because without an auto-pilot I probably wouldn't log very many hours in a whirlybird.

Longest flights so far in the EH101 were 550 miles (SVSN>SKUC) & 495 miles (KBTV>KBKT).

Thanks to the auto-pilot, one of the yet-to-be done adventures I've had on the back burner for a while is a RTW attempt using only helos.

FAC

[Marvin Carter]

Ed I fly Helos long distance all the time, from a custom airport near Orka island to bowman and then to portland. I don't use auto pilot ether. It takes some detecation for that kind of flying. I have read some post recently on people getting board in FS, I do to so. When I do I fly Helos, take alot of practice to get good at it, but puts the fun back in it for me.

[Warrant]

i use a autopilot most of the time,

it allows me to sit back and drink brews and get yelled at by the mrs for sitting at the computer again

beside the mrs, never had a problem with the autopilot I use

This is what I use

http://www.hovercontrol.com/cgi-bin/ifolio/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=FSX_Panels_and_Gauges&image=HC075DI_FSX_COUGAR_AUTOPILOT.zip&img=&tt=zip

install the files where it says you need to

even thou, it says you dont have to do the following, I found you do

you need the autopilot setting to each of your helo aircraft.cfg

I just insert the following regardless



then I add the following to every panel.cfg remembering to change the window number as required and



some things you need to know,as well, otherwise it wont engage or disengage

if the helo has park brakes, they need to be off
dont key the brake key otherwise it will disengage while its keyed
you need to be above 200ft
you need to be going over 40kts
the hover option if affected by wind, so you will drift over long periods of time depending on the wind

if you have flight sim commander the "fly to" button automatically updates the AP heading same with flight plans

this AP system ****s over some of the autopilots some of the developers supply IMO


Same here, including the Mrs-thingy.

Works great for me, on all models, and for years in a row!

[falcon409]

30NM? R U serious? Vienna - Singapore is more than 5200NM....THAT's long distance....quite happy that I made the (almost unprecedented) decision switch from the 767 to A320 :)
Should be back to short/medium range in 2 to 3 month
ummmm, well. . .I'm very happy for you, but I don't see what that has to do with what I'm talking about really.:isadizzy:

[falcon409]

. . . . . . .Get the best helicopter autopilot gauge designed by a real world AS332 pilot himself here:
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/general.html
(Click on the image on that page to start how to install the gauge). . . . . . . . .
That's the same one I've tried before Dain and I never had any luck with it. I'll give it another go though.:salute:

[falcon409]

. . . . . .how is the "gauge02" line in AP Window Block of the panel.cfg file supposed to read? Does it require the entire URL to the aircraft folder in there, does it just need HAP,hap.cfg. I've installed it in 2 different Choppers, the AS Apache and the Blackhawk. . .doesn't work in either one (as it is currently installed):
Gauge in the gauges folder, hap.cfg in the aircraft folder, entry in the panel.cfg file, HAPX.dll in the main FSX folder.

[bstolle]

ummmm, well. . .I'm very happy for you, but I don't see what that has to do with what I'm talking about really.:isadizzy:

Mainly because I misread the thread title....Hello instead of Helo..... :icon_lol:

[jeansy]

. . . . . .how is the "gauge02" line in AP Window Block of the panel.cfg file supposed to read? Does it require the entire URL to the aircraft folder in there, does it just need HAP,hap.cfg. I've installed it in 2 different Choppers, the AS Apache and the Blackhawk. . .doesn't work in either one (as it is currently installed):
Gauge in the gauges folder, hap.cfg in the aircraft folder, entry in the panel.cfg file, HAPX.dll in the main FSX folder.

The version I use is slightly different from the one on dirks site, dirk has done both AP gauges, I found when i did a reinstall this yr, one of his site doesnt work properly compared to the hovercontol version

this is how i have my files located

AFCP.CFG goes into FSX main folder

AP1.CFG goes into FSX main folder

HAP.GAU goes into FSX Gauges folder

AS532AFCP.GAU goes into FSX Gauges folder

[falcon409]

The version I use is slightly different from the one on dirks site, dirk has done both AP gauges, I found when i did a reinstall this yr, one of his site doesnt work properly compared to the hovercontol version
this is how i have my files located
AFCP.CFG goes into FSX main folder
AP1.CFG goes into FSX main folder
HAP.GAU goes into FSX Gauges folder
AS532AFCP.GAU goes into FSX Gauges folder
. . . .and that's where the confusion begins, lol. . .The package I downloaded was from Dain's link and the only thing similar is that both of them have the AS532AFCP.gau gauge, everything else is different. Then when I went to the gauges folder and started looking, I also have the HAP.gau gauge and on further searching realized that I have remnants of both gauge packages strewn throughout FSX. So I need to purge FSX of every file related to both gauge packages, decide which one I'm going to use and then reinstall and try again.:isadizzy:

[jeansy]

I think its an update the one from dirks sites, its not the complete AP, it seemed to me missing things compared to the other version

i ditched it when i tried it earlier this yr and went with one I knew that works 110% over at hover control, if your still not having any luck, I have a TS server, we can jump on and talk our way thru it

[Dain Arns]

I think its an update the one from dirks sites, its not the complete AP, it seemed to me missing things compared to the other version

i ditched it when i tried it earlier this yr and went with one I knew that works 110% over at hover control, if your still not having any luck, I have a TS server, we can jump on and talk our way thru it

That may be why it worked for me, I had the gauge from HC's library already installed in panels, and have had for years. Sorry, didn't consider that. :kilroy:
The latest version I was trying to post has the groundspeed panel attached to the bottom of it.
That's the version I use, this might be the correct page instead as I remember it had the YouTube video, now.
Does appear it is only an upgrade so you must need the original from HC.
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/autopilot.html

[jeansy]

That may be why it worked for me, I had the gauge from HC's library already installed in panels, and have had for years. Sorry, didn't consider that. :kilroy:
The latest version I was trying to post has the groundspeed panel attached to the bottom of it.
That's the version I use, this might be the correct page instead as I remember it had the YouTube video, now.
Does appear it is only an upgrade so you must need the original from HC.
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/autopilot.html


Ahhh, i did notice the different features, but the essentials never worked correctly for me, but i never tried to update it afterwards as i never thought about it again

might do that now

[falcon409]

This has been an enlightening thread. I've discovered that there actually are folks who are able to fly long distances in the sim-world using a Helicopter. I found out that Autopilots are used in helicopters RW, and that there is an autopilot for use in FSX.

Going back to the Autopilot for FSX. It apparently works for some which is good, it gives you ability to do those long, boring Helicopter flights without your arm falling asleep trying to hold straight and level flight for an hour or two. I've read the instructions for use quite a few times but they seem to imply a previous knowledge of the program as I see no real "from the beginning" instructions. There is no readout for the Hdg (I've watched the Hdg Bug on the HSI and it never moves), the IAS never shows fwd movement even at 120kias. . .depending on what button you hit, the annunciator goes completely dark and nothing seems to bring it back and controlled fwd flight (using the AP) is not happening.

I'm going to do some more experimenting but for the time being, the AP is a bust as it has been on previous attempts. I do appreciate all the input from you guys, it's good to get a wide range of opinions and suggestions and I wish I could figure out where the roadblock is (probably my 65yr old brain).

Thanks again!!:salute:

[falcon409]

I've been doing some more searching and found some references to two cfg files that at least at one time needed to be placed in the main FSX folder (AFCP.cfg & AP1.cfg), are those replaced by the HAPX.dll file from the current version as they are not included in the current downloads?

[Dain Arns]

I've been doing some more searching and found some references to two cfg files that at least at one time needed to be placed in the main FSX folder (AFCP.cfg & AP1.cfg), are those replaced by the HAPX.dll file from the current version as they are not included in the current downloads?

I don't think so, I thought the HAPX.dll was for the groundspeed panel.
I know I use the panel.cfg entry from that second page I linked with the update.

EDIT: You are remembering to add the Windowxx=Autopilot title at the top of the panel.cfg file?
I forget to do that sometimes myself.

[falcon409]

I don't think so, I thought the HAPX.dll was for the groundspeed panel.
I know I use the panel.cfg entry from that second page I linked with the update.

EDIT: You are remembering to add the Windowxx=Autopilot title at the top of the panel.cfg file?
I forget to do that sometimes myself.
Yes I did add the Windows entries. I just don't get the displays in the Annunciator. . .even the exact wording for the panel.cfg entry seems to be up for debate as I've seen several different ones here, yet neither of them is done the way the instructions on his site say it should be done (full DOS string). I have the entire DOS location string in the panel.cfg entry (D:\Program Files\Flight Simulator X\SimObjects\Rotorcraft\Alpha AH-64A Apache).

[Dain Arns]

Okay, but you are getting the popup panel?

EDIT: If so I'll link this page will explain how to use it better than I can...
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/AFCP/how_to_fly.html

I never use the autohover, I only use the autopilot, I prefer to land by hand.
So I know you have to be above 200' AGL and 40+ kts to engage the STAB button.

Remember, FS doesn't think helicopters should have autopliots, so this is a compromise.
It does have a leanring curve to use this.

[falcon409]

Okay, but you are getting the popup panel?

EDIT: If so I'll link this page will explain how to use it better than I can...
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/AFCP/how_to_fly.html

I never use the autohover, I only use the autopilot, I prefer to land by hand.
So I know you have to be above 200' AGL and 40+ kts to engage the STAB button.

Remember, FS doesn't think helicopters should have autopilots, so this is a compromise.
It does have a learning curve to use this.

Yep, getting the popup is no problem, and I'm finding out that this is much like a basic AP, there are no adjustments for altitude or heading once they are set. You have to disengage, go to a new heading and altitude then turn those back on to hold what you have.

[Dain Arns]

Yep, getting the popup is no problem, and I'm finding out that this is much like a basic AP, there are no adjustments for altitude or heading once they are set. You have to disengage, go to a new heading and altitude then turn those back on to hold what you have.

Yeah I edited my post above to include this, but you had already replied:
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/AFCP/how_to_fly.html

Don't hit the rectangle ALT button, hit the top of the round ALT.A instead, that starts the adjustment.
Then if you move down either side of that dial you get a +/- to adjust ALT.
Then you need to do the same to the V/S dial to adjust your ascent/descent rates.

Like I said, it has a learning curve, but for a long flight it's nice when you need a break.

[falcon409]

Yeah I edited my post above to include this, but you had already replied:
http://www.dirkfassbender.de/AFCP/how_to_fly.html

Don't hit the rectangle ALT button, hit the top of the round ALT.A instead, that starts the adjustment.
Then if you move down either side of that dial you get a +/- to adjust ALT.
Then you need to do the same to the V/S dial to adjust your ascent/descent rates.

Like I said, it has a learning curve, but for a long flight it's nice when you need a break.
Yep, getting the hang of it now. Took about a 10minute flight playing with the adjustments. . .like you, I still prefer to land by hand, but "hands-off" in a Heli is a nice change. Thanks for the additional info and suggestions.:salute:

[sarwulf]

Falcon,

As a former (retired) real world helo pilot I can tell you that we used our "autopilot" system extensively. I flew for both the Army and Coast Guard. The AH-1 Cobras I flew in the Army did not have any autopilot systems installed. They had a friction lock type device on the collective to provide some "stiffness" to the control for maintaining a manually set altitude so that you could temporarily remove your left hand from the collective control stick to reach other things in the cockpit. But this was OK for attack helicopters as our missions normally were about two hours (and usually low level tactical missions) and did not involve long distance ferry flights. The HH-65A Dolphins that I flew in the Coast Guard had the ability to maintain altitude and heading with a heading hold and altitude hold function. In addtion, we could couple the flight management system to follow navigation (GPS, LORAN, VOR/ILS, NDB, TACAN) commands automatically. So we could fly fully coupled (or partially coupled) approaches to airports, navaids, or any position we entered in our flight plan (to include any point over the water), and we had a hover hold capability. This abilty was a tremendous help in reducing workload on the pilots particularly when doing long searches at night over the ocean. We also used the system when we self deployed to meet our cutters where ever they were. When I was stationed at Coast Guard Air Station Miami (late 1980s), we routinely deployed from Opa Locka Airport and flew to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and Port au Prince, Haiti as single a ship. Later in my career, flying out of Northbend, Oregon, we flew long range fisheries patrols far out into the Pacific to monitor commercial fishery activities as well as doing search and rescue operations in all weather. Having an aircraft able to navigate, hold altitude and heading in rough weather was also helpful in reducing pilot fatigue. Having this ability in FSX with the helicopters makes it more realistic.

[falcon409]

Falcon,

As a former (retired) real world helo pilot I can tell you that we used our "autopilot" system extensively. I flew for both the Army and Coast Guard. The AH-1 Cobras I flew in the Army did not have any autopilot systems installed. They had a friction lock type device on the collective to provide some "stiffness" to the control for maintaining a manually set altitude so that you could temporarily remove your left hand from the collective control stick to reach other things in the cockpit. But this was OK for attack helicopters as our missions normally were about two hours (and usually low level tactical missions) and did not involve long distance ferry flights. The HH-65A Dolphins that I flew in the Coast Guard had the ability to maintain altitude and heading with a heading hold and altitude hold function. In addtion, we could couple the flight management system to follow navigation (GPS, LORAN, VOR/ILS, NDB, TACAN) commands automatically. So we could fly fully coupled (or partially coupled) approaches to airports, navaids, or any position we entered in our flight plan (to include any point over the water), and we had a hover hold capability. This ability was a tremendous help in reducing workload on the pilots particularly when doing long searches at night over the ocean. We also used the system when we self deployed to meet our cutters where ever they were. When I was stationed at Coast Guard Air Station Miami (late 1980s), we routinely deployed from Opa Locka Airport and flew to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and Port au Prince, Haiti as single a ship. Later in my career, flying out of Northbend, Oregon, we flew long range fisheries patrols far out into the Pacific to monitor commercial fishery activities as well as doing search and rescue operations in all weather. Having an aircraft able to navigate, hold altitude and heading in rough weather was also helpful in reducing pilot fatigue. Having this ability in FSX with the helicopters makes it more realistic.
Great information "sarwulf" and thank you for your service. I'm regularly impressed watching "Coast Guard Alaska" and the missions those folks fly every single day in ridiculous weather conditions. Your hands-on perspective is greatly appreciated. I'm getting the hang of the AP as I do each new flight and it is refreshing to be able to not have to fight the controls, especially "pitch" to keep the Heli from stalling, lol. Thanks again!!:salute:

[Sundog]

Does anyone know if this Helo AP will work with Rob B's Helo trim add on?

[Dain Arns]

Does anyone know if this Helo AP will work with Rob B's Helo trim add on?

I don't have that one installed anymore, I used to and don't remember any problems (It's been a few years).
I have the trim addon that comes with FS Force, which can be set for use of either the FS Force or FSX trim for individual aircraft.
That works just fine with the Cougar AP, so I would guess that Rob's should work too, since I think they are pretty similar.

[Victory103]

To have a virtual copilot as we do in the real world, I have Dirk's AP installed in all my FSX helos, even the R22. It's far from cheating and allows one to play with other systems in a complex model like Cerasim's B222. Many of the functions in Dirk's gauge are available real world, with auto hover and auto depart/approach to a hover.