Crates of Buried, Unassembled Spitfires

[mike_cyul]

Sort of intriguing: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17710598

Mike

[brad kaste]

If found,....those crates gotta' be right up there with Howard Carter discovering King Tutankhamun's tomb. Well,...maybe somewhat close to finding Tut's tomb.

[Willy]

Where's my shovel?

[wombat666]

That ranks up there with the hoary old reports of 'Hidden Spitfires' all around the Australian 'Outback'.
I'll believe it when they are dug up ....... :kilroy:

[stiz]

i'm with wombat .. also just think of the damage 67ish years of rain+mud+heat+wooden crate would have done to em! :isadizzy:

[TARPSBird]

I have a suspicion these buried Spitfires in Burma are in the same category as Gen. Yamashi ta's hidden gold stash in the Philippines - fiction.

[Geomitrak]

That ranks up there with the hoary old reports of 'Hidden Spitfires' all around the Australian 'Outback'.
I'll believe it when they are dug up ....... :kilroy:



I have a suspicion these buried Spitfires in Burma are in the same category as Gen. Yamashi ta's hidden gold stash in the Philippines - fiction.


The Spitfires have actually been located, and excavation is to start imminently. Read this article fully;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9203822/Spitfires-buried-in-Burma-during-war-to-be-returned-to-UK.html

[cheezyflier]

the idea of an entire squadron for shows is pretty exciting.

[TARPSBird]

OK, if they've actually been located that changes everything. I'd love to see some images from whatever ground-penetrating sensors they used.

[Bomber_12th]

The scans, which are designed to pick up metal objects, have been described by those that have seen them, as showing objects that have a rough fuselage shape to them (as clear as the scans will allow), and the objects are all lined up side by side, and have been measured to be about 25-30 ft long. If the boxes are still intact, the scans wouldn't pick them up. Because the location of the scans were also done in the very area of the airfield that the Spitfires were documented or said to have been buried in, all of this leads to more than enough evidence to warrent a dig. It's actually been more than a decade in the waiting, for an expedition to be launched to recover what's there, and it's only finally being able to be done because the shifts in the political climate.

A few in reputable positions within the warbird/Spitfire community, that you would expect to know about the details of this dig, and would expect to be confident in the expedition if what they're looking for will be found, actually are! As mentioned previously, there is a team on-site, preparing to initiate the recovery.

[Willy]

After almost 70 years underground, I imagine that they're not in very good shape.

http://telstarlogistics.typepad.com/telstarlogistics/2007/06/well_now_its_of.html

[Bomber_12th]

That's true Willy. I think the hope is that the boxes, being waxed and tarred, held up well enough to provide at least some bit of level of protection. There are a few warbirds flying today, that looked even worse when recovered than that car. Even if every part is unusable, they still provide the perfect means for making patterns from and remanufacturing the parts.

In the current era of warbird restorations, all it takes is a traceable identity to build a Spitfire or Mustang from, so as long as you have a title or the data plates to form a title from, for a specific aircraft, you can build a copy of that aircraft (calling it a "restoration"), and as long as it meets proper standards and rules (looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.) you can assign that identity to the aircraft and as far as the governing bodies are concerned, the end product is the aircraft the paperwork/data plates claim it to be. There is a Spitfire I that finished restoration last year, that is claimed to be the same aircraft as one dug up from a beach, having crashed there in early 1940. The only actual parts from the wreck that went into it, however, could probably be counted within the span of one's fingers and toes, and that's it, but it is an absolute clone of the original, in every detail. And because the rebuild had an identity that could be tied directly to it, it can be registered just as if it was any other Spitfire, and flown. The result of this too, is you can make a decent amount of money just by selling the paperwork/ownership for an aircraft like this, even if almost nothing is actually useable or in existence in a restoration, as simply having a tracable title is one of the biggest hurdles - as actually manufacturing a completely new Mustang or Spitfire, all to original spec, although a lengthy task, is not a problem these days (with enough money). What has already been expressed on another forum, is if that many Mk.XIV's ever do become airworthy (the examples buried are said to be mostly former RAF Mk.XIV's and possibly a few Mk.VIII's), that there won't be enough engines to support the operation of all of them. One of the other hopes, is that if this all turns out as expected, that the engines might still be restorable.

[Bomber_12th]

Going off of my last post, Spitfire P9374 went from looking like this, as recovered:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/6124456500_52bd16740a_o.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/calais20hoverport.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/6124461318_883639a516_b.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/6124457364_5e1e1af76b_b.jpg

To looking like this as of last summer, just as it was in the spring of 1940. As can be imagined, with the aircraft likely worth, due to rarity and the fact that it is asbolutely perfect, probably in the ball-park of $6,000,000 or more, what an investment!:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/SPIT01_13.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/SPIT01_09.jpg

[wombat666]

Even if every part is unusable, they still provide the perfect means for making patterns from and remanufacturing the parts.

In the current era of warbird restorations, all it takes is a traceable identity to build a Spitfire or Mustang from, so as long as you have a title or the data plates to form a title from, for a specific aircraft, you can build a copy of that aircraft (calling it a "restoration"), and as long as it meets proper standards and rules (looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.) you can assign that identity to the aircraft and as far as the governing bodies are concerned, the end product is the aircraft the paperwork/data plates claim it to be. There is a Spitfire I that finished restoration last year, that is claimed to be the same aircraft as one dug up from a beach, having crashed there in early 1940. The only actual parts from the wreck that went into it, however, could probably be counted within the span of one's fingers and toes, and that's it, but it is an absolute clone of the original, in every detail.

And therein lies the rub.
As one who has done a decent amount of 'restoration' work on Classic and Historic cars, and I could care less what the so-called 'Governing Body' mentioned above has to say, most of the 'restored' aircraft [including P9374] are not, they are re-creations or more to the point, complete new builds.

Where I come from, based on my '30 year Porsche 911RS project', a restoration is just that, a restoration of an original car, at least 70% complete, equipped with original factory parts and rebuilt to the exact specification that it rolled off the factory floor first time round.

A replica, as in my own Ford GT40, is just that, a modern day new build from the ground up, but retaining the spirit of the original car as far as practical given present day environmental and safety regulations.
One is not welcome in the GT40 'Replicas' community if one has built a car with Chevrolet power for example, and one individual who planned on using a Lexus engine was refused the purchase of the GT40 'kit'.
Some 20 years ago, probably more IIRC, the Bugatti Owners Club clamped down on a very shifty [one might even say criminal] practice that entailed [for example] four people clubbing together to purchase a single original car, then breaking it up into parts and creating four cars, all claiming to be 'restorations' as these 'fakes' contained 25% original parts, purely in pursuit of big profits.
This is not restoration, it's fraud and criminal fraud at that.

One can't take a construction plate and a control column, build an entire brand new airframe around those items and claim to have restored an 'original' aircraft, it is a 'replica' or more to the point, a 'clone'.
But of course, PT Barnum was right on the mark, there is 'one born every minute' and certain people do like to delude themselves to the extent that authenticity is completely disregarded.
Whatever the outcome, these aircraft will not be restorations, they will be re-creations, and that is non-negotiable.
:kilroy:

[Bomber_12th]

I can't agree with you more, Wombat.

[Geomitrak]

Whatever the outcome, these aircraft will not be restorations, they will be re-creations, and that is non-negotiable.
:kilroy:

Until the condition of each of these aircraft is fully known, it very much is negotiable. I agree with the points you make about rebuilding around a control column, and you are right, but that's not always the case, nor anywhere close. Now that the doubts about their very existence have been dispelled, lets see what is actually unearthed.

[pfflyers]

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but on the subject of 'clones and re-creations', isn't a clone (built as close as possible to factory specs) better than no Spitfire at all? I mean if I built a clone and freely admitted that's what it was would that be a bad thing?

I don't know much about the history of those Spitfires still flying, but on the subject of Mustangs I know most still flying have not seen any combat service, in fact many were surplused right out of the factory after the war. So the only thing 'historic' about most of them is the fact that they were produced by NAA and they were owned (however briefly) by the government.

So if I built a clone P-51D and took it to an airshow wouldn't it have just as much right to wear 'warbird' markings as the rest of the Mustangs in attendance?

Just asking.

[stiz]

So if I built a clone P-51D and took it to an airshow wouldn't it have just as much right to wear 'warbird' markings as the rest of the Mustangs in attendance?

in my opion, if you've spent X amount of millions on a plane you can paint it however you please :)

I also dont care if its a new build or a "restored" plane, as most restorations are 90% new parts anyway, or parts taken from the spare parts shelf.

[TARPSBird]

If somebody has the skills and the funding to clone a new P-51 or Spitfire from a rotted fuselage hulk or even just the armored glass windscreen, it's all good. I'm still happy to see it flying past an air show audience on a Sunday afternoon. I do think there's a point where it's a bit of a stretch to label a plane as "restored" when there's so little original plane left, but I'll leave it to the aircraft owners to agonize over that. Speaking of restorations/rebuilds/whatever, I wish the Navy would take just a little time off from issuing new breathalyzer testing regulations and other social experimentation with the sailors and recover at least one of the two TBD Devastators in Jaluit Lagoon in the Pacific.

63406

[Bomber_12th]

The interesting aspect of some of this, is that you can actually learn more by looking at Spitfire I P9374, today, in order to actually see what Spitfires looked like during the Battle of France and the early days of the Battle of Britain, more so than even the best preserved/un-restored Spitfire on the planet. The reason for this, is that even the earliest preserved un-restored and restored examples have numerous upgrades to them that were done post-BOB, so they are not actually configured as they were during that time period of 1940. P9374 is absolutely perfect, and it wouldn't have been possible without those remains to start with.

I'm in the boat, that if "it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". To pick between an almost unrecognizable hulk of an aircraft, displayed in a crashed-state in some museum, over seeing it "re-birthed" into a pristine flying machine, there's absolutely no argument on my part. Of course it can be quite confusing, and even quite disappointing, to those that have only ever thought of the warbirds they see at airshows, as being direct survivors of WWII - even more so when you see the term "restoration" used to define a project, and the "before and after" photos are actually showing the entire assembly from the original aircraft, and the entirely new-build assembly that is going into the project, both in the same photo sitting next to each other (for which you have to wonder what is to become of those original parts that cannot be used?). At least I can't think of a particular warbird being exactly in the same category of "George Washington's axe" - i.e., "It's the very axe that Washington used...but the handle has been replaced three times, and the head has been replaced twice".

Regarding most of the surviving Mustangs having never actually served in WWII, then most guys tend to focus on what their histories actually were, most of which center around service with the USAF Nation Guard, the Canadian AF, or Latin American Air Forces. There are combat vet Mustangs flying today, because they fired their guns "in anger", but did not do so during WWII.

[Bomber_12th]

TARPSBird, there is actually also another TBD Devastator that has been found off the coast of California in recent years, which I believe was confirmed as a better candidate for recovery and restoration (paint actually still intact), and if a recovery goes forward, it is the one that will be brought up. All of the recoveries made of former US Navy aircraft have to be carried out for the Navy, with the Navy taking possession of them after recovery. However, the Navy cannot pay for the recoveries, so private sponsors have to be found to foot the bill. All of the Lake Michigan recoveries, and that Helldiver recovery not too long ago, were all made possible by individual private sponsors. The only thing actually preventing the recovery is for a sponsorship to come through - will be curious if any recoveries are made this year.

[SPman]

All of which goes to show how stupid and overbearing the Navy is when it comes to old airplanes that they otherwise wouldn't give a damn about ..........

[brad kaste]

All of which goes to show how stupid and overbearing the Navy is when it comes to old airplanes that they otherwise wouldn't give a damn about ..........

Amen to that. Who in their right minds,...would spent their own money,...or monies raised through donations,...and one's personal sweat, to have a WWII Navy aircraft lifted from a watery grave ONLY to have the US Naval Dept. claim it as theirs? I wouldn't pitch in a penny for that deal.

[aeronca1]

Does this also apply to aircraft in International waters or within the boundaries of a foreign state? For example, if a warbird was found submerged on the Canadian side of the Great Lakes, would the US Navy lay claim to it?

[Bomber_12th]

Matt, it only applies to aircraft that were once owned by the U.S. Navy, as despite the fact that they were 'lost' in action or in training accidents, they are still considered Navy property by the U.S. Navy, no matter where they may be. There have been some exceptions over the years. There was an extremely rare Brewster-built F3A Corsair that was found and recovered (from a swamp, if I recall correctly) a number of years ago. When the Navy found out about it, they took it to court, claiming ownership of the aircraft. Amazingly, the guy who recovered it, Lex Cralley, actually won the court battle, though it lasted quite a long time. The aircraft was recently sold a year or two back, and is currently under active rebuild to airworthy condition and will be actively flown when complete. Also, when the brunt of the Lake Michigan recoveries were being done in the early 90's, the Navy gave a few of those aircraft that were recovered, to the company that was repsonsible for bringing the aircraft to the surface, as payment. These were allowed to be sold into the civil market, with a couple of Wildcats becoming airworthy and flown not too long after, and another of those, an SBD Dauntless, is currently under very active restoration to airworthy condition at this time. Also, another one of those Wildcats that were recovered, were traded for another aircraft, thus coming into the civil register, and that project too has now more recently been undergoing restoration to fly.

Speaking of how important it is for private sponsors when it comes to recovering U.S. Navy warbirds, the only reason why that extremely rare Vought F4U-1 'birdcage' Corsair was able to be recovered from Lake Michigan a couple of years back, was because the entire $300,000 bill for the recovery was paid for by Chuck Greenhill, the owner of the P-51D's "Geraldine" and "Lou IV" and a J2F-4 Duck.

[aeronca1]

Hmmmm, if I found one that was not on US soil or within certain border limits, the US Navy could have a look at one of my fingers, lol!

[Willy]

I remember reading that part of the outcome of that Brewster Corsair lawsuit was that in exchange for letting the guy keep that Corsair, Congress passed a law stating that Navy aircraft remain Navy property no matter where they are and in what shape. The Air Force doesn't seem to care that much about their old wrecks.

I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

In the Brewster Corsair case, the Navy had picked what they wanted off of the wreck in the swamp and bulldozed the rest into a hole back in WWII. The guy came along, dug it up and started rebuilding it. The Navy caught wind of it and started trying to claim it. They went to court, public opinion and Congress got involved and the Navy backed off when the deal with Congress was made.

[kilo delta]

Seems that the location of the buried aircraft is now known...and has been for 11 years!!!!



ENCASED in containers for 56 long years they have quietly decayed away, their once shining propellors and wings gathering mould in their underground tomb. Outside the temperature is in the 90s as passenger jets take off in the shimmering heat.


The scene is Mingaladon airport, Myanmar, formerly Burma, and according to farmer and inventor David Cundall hidden 6ft under the airfield are 12 brand new Spitfires, abandoned in 1945 and now worth a cool 6m.


Mr Cundall’s dream is to excavate the crates, restore the Spitfires, and finally see them fly again.


The farmer and inventor first heard stories about the aircraft 20 years ago, but only started researching them in earnest after a friend and former Spitfire pilot met some American veterans who described digging a trench for the aircraft during the Allied withdrawal of Burma.


Through his own work at the public records office at Kew and by placing advertisements in specialist magazines Mr Cundall, who invents farm machinery for a living, has been able to contact seven eyewitnesses, who have confirmed the story.


The aircraft were abandoned on the orders of Louis Mountbatten, the head of South East Asia Command, two weeks before the atomic bombs were dropped in August 1945, ending the Second World War.


Knowing exactly where to dig is the problem when work could undermine the stability of the adjacent international runway.


Another snag is that an Israeli competitor is on the case and has been given permission to make a search


Mr Cundall, 51, who lives in North Lincolnshire, has been out to Burma six times and has worked closely with the military authorities. He said: “We have an agreement with the military that we have our share and they have their share.


“What we really want to do is restore them and have them flying again.”


Mr Cundall – who describes his hobby as “digging up crashed aircraft” – is working with Dr Roger Clark, the head of earth sciences at Leeds University to analyse data from a ground penetrating radar which has been used to survey the 10-acre site. The radar has shown up “boxed shape images” which Mr Cundall believes are the outlines of the containers.


He added: “The story I originally heard was that in August 1945 a group from a construction battalion were passing through Rangoon on the way to Singapore and they were asked to bury 12 planes – they actually questioned the order as it was so unusual.


“When I heard this many years ago Burma was a closed country. I advertised extensively and come up with seven eyewitnesses and 20 who know about the burials.


“Seventy per cent of the area has been searched, and another eyewitness who came along last year is positive he knows where they are and has sent me maps and an outline.


“However, the Burmese say we need more eyewitnesses to exactly pinpoint the place otherwise they’re not going to let us dig. They’re worried about undermining the foundations of the airfield.


“We also have a competitor, an Israeli pilot, who has paid a substantial amount of money to gain the contract to excavate the Spitfires. But his contract expires this month – and with a bit of luck we might be going back out in a week or 10 days.’’


Principal keeper of archaeology at North Lincolnshire Museum Kevin Leahy said the wings and fuselages were made out of thin aluminium and could have crumbled away – but if they were covered in grease and oil, or wax paper ready for a sea transit, they could be all right.


Mr Cundall needs more letters from eyewitnesses spelling out the exact location to convince the military. Anyone who can help is asked to contact him via the Yorkshire Post Hull office at Regent House, Ferensway, Hull, HU1 3PT or by e-mailing alex.wood@ypn.co.uk.


http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/around-yorkshire/local-stories/race_is_on_to_find_buried_treasures_spitfires_wort h_163_6m_1_2411664


Originally published Wednesday 9 May 2001 22:21

[pfflyers]

This link was posted by Emil Frand and the article states: "We sent a borehole down and used a camera to look at the crates," he told the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/asia/burma/9204921/British-farmers-quest-to-find-lost-Spitfires-in-Burma.html). "They seemed to be in good condition."


http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...ml?CMP=OTC-RSS (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Lost_Spitfire_Squadron_206526-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS)