Is 'Vulcan' the Mother of 'Concorde'?

[stuartcox]

A very interesting article released on the XH558 website, comparing early developments on the Vulcan with standards on Concorde...

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/mother-of-concorde.html

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[Jagdflieger]

A nice quick article to read and thought provoking. Thanks for posting it.

[aeronca1]

Some of the aerodynamics people from the CF-105 Arrow project later worked on the Concorde, so the Arrow has to figure in there somewhere.

[cheezyflier]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s180/cheezyridr/avro1.jpg

[stuartcox]

Tonight in the UK on Channel 4: 'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'.

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/pwmtn/falklands'-most-daring-raid

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Looking very promising...


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[kilo delta]

Speaking of the Vulcan...wish XH558 was behind me when I was last in G-BEOL!:icon_lol:

http://www.aviation-photocrew.com/index.php?page=2011_vulcan&year=2011

[stuartcox]

Speaking of the Vulcan...wish XH558 was behind me when I was last in G-BEOL!:icon_lol:

http://www.aviation-photocrew.com/index.php?page=2011_vulcan&year=2011

Absolutely stunning shots, and a great little video!
Thanks for sharing! :mixedsmi:

[Jagdflieger]

I have a new screen saver on my lap top thanks to the selection of photos there.

[magoo]

I don't think you could see any of these aircraft designs as a direct pre-descendent of the later, but certainly the general engineering ideas have a way of evolving throughout an industry.

If I'm not wrong, at the time of the Arrow development program, Avro Canada's mother company was Hawker-Siddely. The design and research staff on the Arrow project were not solely Canadian, but largely international. Certainly Canadian, American, to a large degree, British (and perhaps others...). All from countries that were leading development of high performance jet aircraft. This observation alone can illustrate an accessable range of design and research experience drawn from a wide and varied base, over a time period (potentially) dating back to before the Second World War.

When the prototype Arrows were chopped up by government order as the project was cancelled, it was a tidal wave of design talent that spilled out into the aviation world carrying details and experience of Arrow with them, to the immediate benefit of the aviation industry.

How about comparing some aspects of the Arrow, with another better known combat aircraft design that went on to fulfill and exceed it's designated requirement, the Douglas F4 Phantom II. Examine the air intake. Almost identical, as is the wing leading edge notch and outer wing extension, even though both feature relatively different wing geometry and totally different wing placement.

Was there a trade-off between Malton's Avro design team and the boys at Douglas, or was it simply a general application of ideas that were broadly understood as solutions to the problem across the aviation design community?

I've been told "folklorish" stories by retired Avro/McDonnell-Douglas employees about Black Friday, the event of termination, where a visiting tech crew from Bristol Aerospace was thought to have returned to England via an official RCAF transport carrying a crated Orenda Irorquois jet engine. The story teller says,"thus begat the later generations of all things Olympus."

Witness my eyes roll and a slow shake of the head, thinking of conspiricy theories and the folklore of the missing, hidden Arrow out there, probably somewhere around Area 51.....

In truth, everybody in Arrow got sacked on Black Friday. Certain to speculate most, if not all of the top talent was on route to new positions in other countries and companies the following Monday. With them all, their ideas, solutions, experience.

Arrow and Phantom II were certainly peers of their generation, as different as they were. It's their small similarities that's the giveaway. (Another good example, air intakes on Valkrie/F-15, F-14, MiG 25......patent trading or just an obvious overall solution to a perfomance requirent with technology of the time...?)

It's obvious to guess that better (new) ideas developed in Orenda Iroquois were applied as solutions in the later Olympus designed for TSR-2 and Concorde....as were ideas from other sources. A design similarity beyond form following function, and more to do with the neccesity of a design engineer chasing work to maintain mortgage payments and raise a family. A paycheck from Rolls Royce or P&W will be just as useful as the one from Orenda....

One certain exception to all this is Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works, from P-38 to SR-71......it's as if he and his crew existed on another planet. But beyond that, I keep seeing one giant wave of aviation creators, trading ideas, working on each other's gigs, pushing it all forward.

It's sort of like watching Jazz musicians developing their careers, the way they work around, and keep pushing the art as a community.

Did Concorde come out of Vulcan? I dunno, ask the Wright Brothers.