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JohnC
February 23rd, 2012, 06:26
There seems to be a fair amount of confusion swirling about in the DC-6 thread, and I certainly don't want to derail that thread any further. However, I wanted write something out and maybe a few will gain from it. This is not directed at any single person, team, or entity.

Developer's perspective
Most developers don't earn on income from this hobby. There a few big named companies where the people at the very top do, but that's an exception, and it is basically unheard of that an entire development team would pay their mortgages with this as a primary income. This means for most, creations are done in the spare time which is limited by definition. It also means our rate is waaaay below what we make at our day jobs.

Add to this that aircrafts in and of themselves (the real ones) are hugely complex creations built by swarms of engineers. There is an immense amount of detail, a good chunk of it which is not available by straight forward methods unless you actually have a specimen sitting in front of you. Some development groups are lucky enough to have this, most aren't.

This creates a situation where it's easy to miss or look past a detail because it was either buried in some reference you didn't have time to check or because it was on your mind/to-do list and then your wife calls saying you need to get off the computer (usually NOW!!!!) because chores have been piling up...and then it's gone because you forgot to write it down. Houses and waistlines tend to suffer during busy development periods.

For developers, these creations are labors of love...and we put much more effort into each than will ever see reward out.

Customers perspective
Cash is usually short, this is a tough world economy after all. I can walk down to the local electronics depot (either physically or virtually) and buy a well polished, thoroughly tested product for $30-60 which is designed to keep me occupied and entertained for tens of hours. There are also a handful of payware developers for FSX, who just seem to get it right, and they also seem to push the boundary of what's possible with every consecutive release. This makes it easy and almost natural to use them as a baseline for comparison.

On top of that, when something doesn't work, it usually means that the small and fleeting chunk time which has been set aside for fun is now allocated to an intensely frustrating process of, "Why don't you work?!?!".

For consumers, these aircraft are also an expenditure of love. I get fewer hours of entertainment per dollar in FSX than in any other virtual hobby I pursue.

Integration
These are of course, incomplete views and only intended to represent the core of the diverging perspectives which are bound to create tension somewhere in our community. As with most things, there is no clear cut answer or solution that works for everyone. However, there are some guidelines which can almost ubiquitously be applied.

- It's always a good practice to take both sides into account before putting fingers to keyboard. This is particularly important if you're feeling frustrated.

- Remember that we are all here for the love of aviation; developers and paying customers both make sacrifices to keep this hobby alive.

- If you're an upset customer talking to a developer. Assume that the dev is (a) a reasonably intelligent person who (b) takes pride in their work and will (c) make improvements based on your substantiated feedback. If you kindly point out a discrepancy with proof in hand, the problem will get fixed more often than not, provided that the creation is in an active state of development (i.e. beta or just released and pre-servicepack). Yes there are some developers who won't respond well or some at all, but it's hardly justifiable to apply coarse tactics with all developers as a recourse.

- If there's an aircraft you really, really like and it just has to be right....then you might be happiest with the outcome if you join the beta process. Good beta testers are hard to find and your help will be hugely appreciated.

roger-wilco-66
February 23rd, 2012, 06:58
Well put.

stovall
February 23rd, 2012, 07:10
Very well said, I would like to see a return to the old days, when many were learning and sharing ideas. Rarely was anything perfect but most of the creators shared ideas and helped each other make a better final aircraft or scenery etc. We need to encourage people to start learning the process and not be afraid to share what they make with all of us. Lately Roger Wilco 66 has opened the doors to making scenery for me. With his help I have found a whole new area to have fun in. From my signature below you must know I am talking about the Iwo Jima scenery. It is just about finished and will be out soon. Hopefully we can enjoy it and many can get ideas for new creations in the future.

Killbilly
February 23rd, 2012, 07:44
Amen. Perspective promotes maturity, and maturity is never the wrong tactic. I've been visiting the Outhouse since I flew FS 5.1 (yes, I'm getting old). I have always enjoyed the predominate atmosphere of helpful and mature camaraderie here. I know that when money is involved, emotions can run high; but if we let those emotions eclipse our perspective, we could lose the very things that make our hobby and this site enjoyable. Very well said, JohnC.

Alan_A
February 23rd, 2012, 08:03
Extremely well said.

This deserves to be stickied - and posted on the other major forums as well.

strykerpsg
February 23rd, 2012, 08:09
Very humbly put

Matt

GB
February 23rd, 2012, 08:30
thats a very accurate position.

Henry
February 23rd, 2012, 08:53
thats a very accurate position.yup mine also thanks
H:applause:

Roger
February 23rd, 2012, 09:00
Very nicely and sincerely put John:applause:

fsxar177
February 23rd, 2012, 09:20
Thank-you, well said Roger!

Joseph

JAllen
February 23rd, 2012, 10:11
I think we all should read and sign our names to the spirit of that.


Jim

svicar
February 23rd, 2012, 10:19
I think we all should read and sign our names to the spirit of that.


Jim

Agree 110%......consider my post as such.

swimeye
February 23rd, 2012, 10:20
I also agree to a very well written post.

Dain Arns
February 23rd, 2012, 10:46
Indeed. :applause:

guzler
February 23rd, 2012, 14:01
Thankyou, what a great comment.

Manners are free, we should all exercise them more :icon29:

Come to think of it, I believe the longevity of flight simming needs them.

CodyValkyrie
February 23rd, 2012, 14:29
I unequivocally agree.

warchild
February 23rd, 2012, 14:52
Count me in too please.. :)

PRB
February 23rd, 2012, 15:39
Well said, JohnC!

Dexdoggy
February 23rd, 2012, 16:52
Very thoughtful, a fantastic thread!

Paul Domingue
February 23rd, 2012, 17:24
Very insightful John C! You’re what I’d call “A Stand-up Guy”. :salute:

fsafranek
February 24th, 2012, 10:19
All insightful observations JohnC and well expressed. Thank you.
:ernae:

hairyspin
February 24th, 2012, 13:18
... I would like to see a return to the old days, when many were learning and sharing ideas. Rarely was anything perfect but most of the creators shared ideas and helped each other make a better final aircraft or scenery etc. We need to encourage people to start learning the process and not be afraid to share what they make with all of us....

Many of those who do that have gone elsewhere. I do most of my learning at a site especially for FS developers and the camaraderie between payware and freeware developers is most appreciated - rather like the old days of CFC and Netwings. I think would-be freeware developers find the high expectations here rather daunting.

Roger
February 24th, 2012, 14:16
Some low-life thought it would be fun to rate this thread "Terrible". I have just voted it "excellent" and now it's up to three stars. If you like the thread then please rate it yourselves and let's try to get it to the 5 stars it deserves.

Francois
February 24th, 2012, 22:48
I think that to the vast majority of readers here John's appeal is pretty obvious.

A small minority is either new or forgot and needs to be reminded once in awhile.

And to a very tiny group of people the above will be lost no matter what..... so be it. I've learned to live with this reality for many years now and take my enjoyment and very meager income out of the first line :salute:

fxsttcb
February 25th, 2012, 03:57
...please rate it yourselves and let's try to get it to the 5 stars it deserves. Done, but, this one really needs a custom 10 star rating.
With JohnC's permission, I'll quote it at FS.com...Don

Wothan
February 25th, 2012, 04:53
Very good post John.


Being a FS developer myself and having worked closly with John on numerous projects I can only agree.

I "work" for one of the major publishers in this busisness, but nevertheless it is still not my prime job. I work 40 hours on my real job and only do FS developement in my sparetime as part of my hobby. The time used though, often counts 40-60 hours, so family has often to suffer.

Over the years where I have worked as developer, I keep more and more distance to community forums, cause often discusssions gets more and more rough and being developer of a sepcific product, which You try to defend or argue about, most often put You on the loosing side because the customer is deemed to always be right - or is he/she ?

Prices on addons has hardly increased during the last couple of years, but as we constantly move the boundaries for whats possible in FSX, customer expectations also get higher and higher. Often 3-5 guys will work for 9 month on an addon thats is sold for 40$ and which won´t be sold in thousands.

A number of developers has recently announced their retirement because they simply had enough.
Honestly I also ask myself sometimes if it´s really worth the hard work when people doesn´t understand that we often has to make compromises.

What I have found though, is that often it is the same people showing up in the various forums obviously searching for a fight, so it´s like everywhere in life - it´s the 5% who spoils it for the rest of us - so better not let them win - simply ignore them.

When You have told more than 10 times what a certain project is about and people don´t want to understand then they cannot be helped.


FinnJ

1pepito2
February 27th, 2012, 09:49
Remember when.... we did this for fun? Someone would come up with model, post it, we'd download it as is. If we didn't like something about it we changed it or added to it, we learned about panels, sounds, air files, cfg files, ect. shared what we learned... very few complaints. Society has changed, all those time-saving gadgets and social networking that keep us "connected" with false friends and make us feel important are ruining us. I feel all these "things" we think we need have caused the loss of creative thought in many. The lazy, uncreative among us choose to hide behind an wall of anonymity spewing ignorance hoping someone is foolish enough to bite back. Along with that is the expectation that if one is unhappy (about anything planes, life...) it's up to someone else to fix it.

Any creative person doing something they love, wants to share with others, and criticism is, quite naturally, taken personally. Years ago an excellent freeware developer stopped sharing his creations due to unwarranted criticism, fortunately he's back. Perhaps he's taken Mr Piglets' position of... if you don't like it, fix it or don't use it. Criticism must be taken as either constructive or ignorant, you can't do anything with the later so don't try. Lowering yourself to ignorance's level only propagates ignorance. As a semi-creative person I want people to pleased with what I do... to not take things personally and realize the only person I have to please is myself took a long time, too long, but that's how it is sometimes.

Threads like this, and too many here, add to hate, there's enough of that in the world.

"If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"... but remember, only you control your thermostat, keep it cool.

Peppy