Question on Ferrying Military Jets

[AusWilko]

G'Day, a question if I may

If I was to take a F-15E from Nellis to Seymour or Seymour to Lakenheath what height would be the norm and I presume you would stay out of civilian routes

Thanks

[TeaSea]

That's a good question, and I have no idea what the answer is....however, I do work with an ex-F16 jockey, who has done exactly that.

I will ask him tomorrow and post if you don't have your question answered by then.

[Bone]

Unless you're going to go from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson at 200 feet, or some other tactical endevour, when it comes to just flying from A to B, there is no difference in the airspace system as regards to military and civilian traffic. Military and civilians all fly the same Jet-ways and Victor-ways, using the same cardinal altitudes and air traffic controllers, and using the same air traffic control procedures. Single ships and formations fly the same routes, although formations get block altitudes. A few months back an air traffic controller gave me a traffic call about a USAF F-16 that was about to cross my route at 1000 feet above me...I think I was at 30,000 feet. The F-16 pilot was communicating on VHF just like the rest of us, and I called him insight to the controller, and then the F-16 pilot called us in sight. Then I asked him if he would give us a roll as he passed in front of us, and he did. It was fun. I see all manor of military planes in the sky around me everywhere I go. I even get to see quite alot of aerial refuelings, when we pass close to AR Tracks. Once I was going from Savanah, GA to Dallas, TX, and a B-52 was on the same Jet-way we were, but 2000 feet directly below us and slightly left. I watched him out my left window for about an hour, until he made his descent into Barksdale AFB.

Anyway, if you're going going to fly from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson, then you're going to need to be at an odd altitude such as 31,000/33,000/35,000/37000 feet. When your course track falls between 001 and 180 degrees, you fly odd altitudes, when your course track falls between 181 and 360 degrees, you fly even altitudes. Pick a route using Jet-Ways if you have charts, or go direct since it's only flightsim. When you go over the Atlantic, you might as well just go direct, unless you've got the overwater track system all figured out.

[skyblazer3]

Thanks for sharing those stories Bone, it sounds like great fun -- something to break up the monotony of flying. In the tomahawk I only worry about A-10s going into and out of a bombing range low-level -- I can't imagine 30,000 feet.:salute:

[AusWilko]

hanks for that Bone, much appreciated :icon29:

[RKinkor]

Unless you're going to go from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson at 200 feet, or some other tactical endevour, when it comes to just flying from A to B, there is no difference in the airspace system as regards to military and civilian traffic. Military and civilians all fly the same Jet-ways and Victor-ways, using the same cardinal altitudes and air traffic controllers, and using the same air traffic control procedures. Single ships and formations fly the same routes, although formations get block altitudes. A few months back an air traffic controller gave me a traffic call about a USAF F-16 that was about to cross my route at 1000 feet above me...I think I was at 30,000 feet. The F-16 pilot was communicating on VHF just like the rest of us, and I called him insight to the controller, and then the F-16 pilot called us in sight. Then I asked him if he would give us a roll as he passed in front of us, and he did. It was fun. I see all manor of military planes in the sky around me everywhere I go. I even get to see quite alot of aerial refuelings, when we pass close to AR Tracks. Once I was going from Savanah, GA to Dallas, TX, and a B-52 was on the same Jet-way we were, but 2000 feet directly below us and slightly left. I watched him out my left window for about an hour, until he made his descent into Barksdale AFB.

Anyway, if you're going going to fly from Nellis to Seymour-Johnson, then you're going to need to be at an odd altitude such as 31,000/33,000/35,000/37000 feet. When your course track falls between 001 and 180 degrees, you fly odd altitudes, when your course track falls between 181 and 360 degrees, you fly even altitudes. Pick a route using Jet-Ways if you have charts, or go direct since it's only flightsim. When you go over the Atlantic, you might as well just go direct, unless you've got the overwater track system all figured out.200 feet agl nellis to seymour sounds fun to me

[Victory103]

To add to Bone's post, careful on the amount of fuel you add externally. The Mud Hen should be fine with the already on conformal tanks with 2 wing drops. There was a good thread on the VRS forums by a rw Hornet pilot about not adding all 5 tanks, as the added drag took away from the additional fuel. For "SJ" to "Heath", one could put an AI KC-135 over the Atlantic.

You are also looking for a "max range" airspeed, should be around .83 to .90 Mmo, and the obvious, stay out of burner.

[TeaSea]

Spoke to my guy and he echo's what Bone submitted....some interesting points which probably don't relate to your Simmming, but might.

For Transit the responsibility for coordination and deconfliction with Civil Aircraft is the Tanker Wing who will be in support. The Wing works with an Agency in DOD who presents the transit plan to the FAA, who works further with International Civil Aviaiton authorities to ensure deconfliction. The fighter aircraft talk directly with local ATC until rendesvous at first fuel point, at which point the Tanker picks up the responsiblities. This continues until drop off at the far end, then the fighters intitiate with regular ATC once again.

Flight Levels are standard. Frequencies are standard. Call Signs are military, but filed with the civil authorities per the intial coordination. Regular IFR is in effect.

Routes are often deconflicted to either slightly North or South of the normal transit route. The Azores route is used a lot.

So not that much different from Civil flights, but you will need a tanker!

[Bone]

The fighter aircraft talk directly with local ATC until rendesvous at first fuel point, at which point the Tanker picks up the responsiblities. This continues until drop off at the far end, then the fighters intitiate with regular ATC once again.

An interesting thing to note about the AR rendevouz is when the tanker accepts responsibilty. On the radio, you can here them declare "MARSA" to the ATC controller when the reciever aircraft hit the AR Track. "MARSA" stands for Military Accepts Responsibilty for Separation of Aircraft. When you're close to an AR Track, it's quite interesting listening to the radio exchange between the tanker and controller. The tanker really becomes the Mother Hen for the reciever aircraft. I'm glad the tanker guys prefer to talk on the VHF freqs, because it's interesting to listen to.

[Bone]

For Transit the responsibility for coordination and deconfliction with Civil Aircraft is the Tanker Wing who will be in support. The Wing works with an Agency in DOD who presents the transit plan to the FAA, who works further with International Civil Aviaiton authorities to ensure deconfliction.


One more thing to add. The coordination you're refering to here is more specific to the "Fighter Drag" transit. Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it. Sometimes even there's more than one tanker with another group of fighters, all involved as part of the same Fighter Drag. It's the size of these drags that require the coordination, not so much that it's a military thing. When C-17's, C-5's, KC-135s, ect. fly overseas in single ships, they're just like any other plane in the over water tracks.

[Bjoern]

200 feet agl nellis to seymour sounds fun to me

As long as you can make a few fuel stops... ;)




Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it.

Is the tanker tagging along all the way?

I figure that the range of a KC-10 isn't enough for a TransAt if you've got a dozen fighters leeching off fuel every odd one or two hours.

[Bone]

Is the tanker tagging along all the way?

I figure that the range of a KC-10 isn't enough for a TransAt if you've got a dozen fighters leeching off fuel every odd one or two hours.

That's the way it's been explained to me, Bjoern, but I don't think your going to have a tanker/fighter ratio of 1:12. Also many times, support personnel and everyone's personal belongings are being transported in the tanker. Some go in advance, though. You've got a hand full of pilots who are flying the airframes to 'wherever', and the rest of the support people and pilots are bumming a ride. There's probably numerous scenarios on how the drag operation works, depending on how much and how far, and each drag will be handled according to it's needs. I have a friend who flew F-111's out of RAF Upper-Heyford, and he was telling me about his squadron's deployment to Nellis for a Red Flag. The logistics are quite complicated.


There may be times when a tanker tag team effort needs to be done, but I don't think the fighters are getting fuel every hour or two. They burn the greatest amount of fuel getting off the ground and climbing to altitude. Once they're in cruise, they don't mow through fuel like a fighter normally does.

Disclaimer: Obviously, I've never been a part of a Fighter Drag, but I know and fly with alot of fighter pilots...and they LOVE to talk about fighter pilot stuff, lol.

[skyblazer3]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.

[Bone]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.



Your dad was cracking the whip, lol. That's too funny. My dad flew B-52D's in Vietnam during the late sixties, with the 393rd squadron/509th BW from Pease AFB, New Hampshire. He did three Arc Light tours of 6 months each, comprising 165 total combat missions out of Guam and Utapao, Thailand. Out of his three tours, he actually ferried a bomber over there once, and ferried one back. They also had tankers from the refueling squadron at Pease go at the same time, so they flew en masse in a drag type operation. Before the ferry process coming home, they got abunch of 2x4 lumber and built cradles in the bomb bay, and brought huge amounts of stereo's and other cheap goods back with them. I've still got one of his big-arse clunky Sony reel-to-reels in one of my closets.

[Skyhawk_310R]

To add to Bone's post, careful on the amount of fuel you add externally. The Mud Hen should be fine with the already on conformal tanks with 2 wing drops. There was a good thread on the VRS forums by a rw Hornet pilot about not adding all 5 tanks, as the added drag took away from the additional fuel. For "SJ" to "Heath", one could put an AI KC-135 over the Atlantic.

You are also looking for a "max range" airspeed, should be around .83 to .90 Mmo, and the obvious, stay out of burner.

General consensus view from my F-15E buddies is that two bags of gas is the optimal fuel loadout on a cross ocean ferry flight -- one of each of the wing pylons. The centerline pylon is generally left empty as putting a fuel tank on it causes stability issues in many flight regions.

Ken

[Skyhawk_310R]

My father took the first F-4E squadron to Vietnam in November 1968. The 40th FS deployed from Eglin AFB, Florida to Korat RTAFB. They took 24 aircraft to California, then they had several tankers flying with them from California to Hickam where they had to stay a few days because of thunderstorms. From Hickam they resumed the flight with several tankers to Guam, and finally on to Thailand. I want to say that each flight of 6 had a tanker. Each flight made a low pass over Korat in delta formation, and then pitched up off the deck into the pattern. They had all 24 aircraft on the runway at the same time. It is a miracle that everyone got a good chute. The squadron was then reconstituted as the 469th TFS, replacing the F-105 unit.

Most of the flights flew pretty spread out, but my father, having been on an aerobatic team, kept his flight in tight formation. His wingmen still complain to me about how they had to fly across the pacific in precision formation.

Holy crap! That means your father's jet was immortalized in an excellent Keith Ferris painting!

Ken

[Skyhawk_310R]

One more thing to add. The coordination you're refering to here is more specific to the "Fighter Drag" transit. Most of the time when fighters go overseas, they do it en masse...typically a tanker with 6-10 fighters in tow behind it. Sometimes even there's more than one tanker with another group of fighters, all involved as part of the same Fighter Drag. It's the size of these drags that require the coordination, not so much that it's a military thing. When C-17's, C-5's, KC-135s, ect. fly overseas in single ships, they're just like any other plane in the over water tracks.

This is very true!

One of my more memorable flights was non-stop from Hurlburt Field to Ali al Salem, AB, Kuwait in an MC-130E. I recall we had five inflight refuelings to make that trip, and brother it was a LONG day and night and day!

Ken

[skyblazer3]

Holy crap! That means your father's jet was immortalized in an excellent Keith Ferris painting!

Ken


It's true. We had our latest reunion in October at the USAF Museum, and Keith was able to bring the painting from the Pentagon, so we had it in the hospitality suite with us. Very impressive. First time many of the pilots had seen it. After the reunion, he offered to make digital prints on canvas (they look and feel just like the oil painting) for people in the squadron. So, I ordered one for my father's Christmas present, and then I got one for myself. I will post pictures when it gets back from the framer.

I've also made a DVD of the deployment from old 16mm air force footage (they had a camera crew on hand for all stages of the deployment), as well as some excellent photos that Keith took from the backseat of the Phantom. Narration is done by one of the jocks. I've given copies to all pilots and families in the squadron -- trying to figure out how to get it on Youtube. Most of the aircraft commanders are in their late 70s, GIBs 10 years younger -- so my job is to handle all of the computers and technology related to the reunions.

[Bone]

Good stuff, Chris!

(oh, woe is me, the lowly son of a bomber puke, ohhh wwoe is mee, the lowly son of a bomber puke, ohhhhh wwwoooe isss meeee......)

[skyblazer3]

Bone,

can you explain the B52 arc-light flights in vietnam?

[Bone]

Operation Arc Light, the B-52 bombing campaign in Vietnam and Laos that was the predecessor to Linebacker, and Linebacker II. Same thing, just different names.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arc_Light

[robertorizzo]

Guys,
THREADS LIKE THIS MAKE SOH DIFFERENT.
And saying this i do not refer exclusely at the subject, but also at polite and professional way everyone gave its contribute.
Thanks and please keep it open forever.

[TeaSea]

Well, you just jinxed that!:icon_lol:

[Skyhawk_310R]

It's true. We had our latest reunion in October at the USAF Museum, and Keith was able to bring the painting from the Pentagon, so we had it in the hospitality suite with us. Very impressive. First time many of the pilots had seen it. After the reunion, he offered to make digital prints on canvas (they look and feel just like the oil painting) for people in the squadron. So, I ordered one for my father's Christmas present, and then I got one for myself. I will post pictures when it gets back from the framer.

I've also made a DVD of the deployment from old 16mm air force footage (they had a camera crew on hand for all stages of the deployment), as well as some excellent photos that Keith took from the backseat of the Phantom. Narration is done by one of the jocks. I've given copies to all pilots and families in the squadron -- trying to figure out how to get it on Youtube. Most of the aircraft commanders are in their late 70s, GIBs 10 years younger -- so my job is to handle all of the computers and technology related to the reunions.

That's quality stuff right there, man! A very valuable project to protect vital aviation history! The deployment of the F-4E did more to re-establish and maintain air superiority over Vietnam than any other single action carried out during the war. It was a vital part of making Linebacker II the success and turning point in the war that it became, and established the primary basis for the North Vietnamese to agree to the terms of the Paris Treaty.

Ken

[skyblazer3]

The 469th that took the first F-4Es to SEA were a pretty special bunch of guys. They were all hand-picked from across the Air Force by the squadron Commander, Ed Hilding. Hilding took guys he had known as great pilots during his time in service. He chose my father as D flight commander, because Hilding had served with him in Bitburg back in the 1950s. One flight commander even had a MiG from Korea. Hilding had flown in WWII. Many of the aircraft commanders were either experienced fighter-pilots, or people who had shown great talent at the fighter weapons school or in RTU. Unlike most squadrons, the GIBs in the 469th were all pilots, many with fighter experience. They trained together for a complete year in Florida before the deployment, and then they flew combat together for a year -- these guys were tight-knit. They knew one another's capabilities, they knew they could trust each other in combat long before they deployed. I imagine this is what it is like in Air Guard units.

These guys were trained as Mig Killers, they were the first F-4 squadron with an on-board gun, and they meant to put it to good use. Sadly, there was a bombing-halt in October, just before they deployed, and they spent their tour hunting trucks and AAA in Laos. They were extremely effective with the new Dive-Toss system of bombing in day and night conditions -- but they really felt like their job should have been going north to kill Migs. I remember the A flight commander saying, "There was a 469th before us, and a 469th after us, but there was never a 469th quite like us." It was the job of later incarnations of the squadron to go north and provide air-cover -- but those pilots did not have the fortune of knowing each other for two years (or longer in the case of pilots who had flown together on previous assignments). I don't know of any other fighter squadron that had a year book. These guys still get together every 2 years, to every 1.5 years to remember their time in Florida and SEA.

Lucky SOBs.:salute::salute::guinness:

[AusWilko]

skyblazer I am reading on and off along with other books on my kindle sitting on planes going to and from work every week to 2 weeks a book called Once a Fighter Pilot by Jerry Cook and just reading what you have written it reminds me of the book.

[Bone]

It's true. We had our latest reunion in October at the USAF Museum, and Keith was able to bring the painting from the Pentagon, so we had it in the hospitality suite with us.

From all you've ever told me about your dad's air force career, I have to say he really did have an unusually charmed career as compared to most air force guys. He had the luck of the shamrock with him, no doubt.

Because this thread brought up the Keith Ferris aspect, I went online to see if I could get a glimpse of the F-4E print you were talking about. Lo and behold I saw a B-52D painting he had done of B-52D 55-0094. I called my dad, and it turns out he had flown that particular plane in combat over there. Even though it came from the 99th BW (which wasn't my dad's wing), once it got to southeast asia it became part of the "Provisional" bomb wing. The provisional bomb wing was created to accomodate all the crews which had come from different wings, into one fighting unit once they arrived from the states.

[Bjoern]

...

Thanks, man!




This is very true!

One of my more memorable flights was non-stop from Hurlburt Field to Ali al Salem, AB, Kuwait in an MC-130E. I recall we had five inflight refuelings to make that trip, and brother it was a LONG day and night and day!

From what I've heard about flying in a Herc, you can't catch much sleep in there if you're not used to it. Or is the noise more bearable with ear protection? (I guess you can't quite shut off the vibration)

Also, are there relief crews on board (as on the very long flights in the civvie world) or do they fill a wing tank with coffee for these flights? :icon_lol:

[skyblazer3]

http://www.keithferrisart.com/search_result_image.asp_Q_Product_ID_E_022Lineback erintheBuff

Is this the one bone?

it's a nice print.

[Bone]

http://www.keithferrisart.com/search_result_image.asp_Q_Product_ID_E_022Lineback erintheBuff

Is this the one bone?

it's a nice print.

Yeah, that's the one. Mr Ferris did his bomber sortie in November 1968, the month he flew in with your dad's F-4E squadron. He must have seen those beautifull big black bombers sitting on the ramp.

[PRB]

In April of 1983, VA-94 became the first single-engine tactical squadron to “trans-pac”, when they departed NAS Cubi Point, Philippines, for NAS Lemoore, CA, with Guam, Wake, Midway, and Hawaii as waypoints. They flew with two Navy C-9s filled with maintenance people, tools, and spare parts. One C-9 would depart early, arrive at the next waypoint before the A-7s got there so they could perform post-flight and turn-around inspections. The other C-9 flew with the Corsairs, fixed any maintenance issues after landing, and launched the planes to their next waypoint. Don’t know what tanker support was involved in this flight, but there must have been some. I know USAF aircraft squadrons do not have their own maintainers assigned, so I guess any maintenance that was required would have been done by the people already assigned to those bases. Just a guess though.

[Skyhawk_310R]

Thanks, man!





From what I've heard about flying in a Herc, you can't catch much sleep in there if you're not used to it. Or is the noise more bearable with ear protection? (I guess you can't quite shut off the vibration)

Also, are there relief crews on board (as on the very long flights in the civvie world) or do they fill a wing tank with coffee for these flights? :icon_lol:

I didn't drink a drop of coffee on that flight, but others on the crew did. We did have an augmented crew, one additional navigator and additional pilot and we rotated in and out of the seats. But, in terms of any sleep, I got to the point where I could sleep on the Herc because I got used to the constant engine sounds and I wore ear plugs. But, I confess that I probably got only a couple of hours sleep in what I recall was 36 plus hours in the air!

By the time we got to Kuwait, I lost all concept of day of the week -- it had no meaning! I think I basically lost an entire calendar day of my life on the planet due to the change in dateline heading east!

Ken

[Skyhawk_310R]

From all you've ever told me about your dad's air force career, I have to say he really did have an unusually charmed career as compared to most air force guys. He had the luck of the shamrock with him, no doubt.

Because this thread brought up the Keith Ferris aspect, I went online to see if I could get a glimpse of the F-4E print you were talking about. Lo and behold I saw a B-52D painting he had done of B-52D 55-0094. I called my dad, and it turns out he had flown that particular plane in combat over there. Even though it came from the 99th BW (which wasn't my dad's wing), once it got to southeast asia it became part of the "Provisional" bomb wing. The provisional bomb wing was created to accomodate all the crews which had come from different wings, into one fighting unit once they arrived from the states.

It's a bloody small world we live in, isn't it?

Ken

[Bone]

It's a bloody small world we live in, isn't it?

Ken

Yes it is, Ken, and then there was a couple of trips I had with a First Officer who knows you from your MC-130 days, lol. I liked the story about dropping the Daisy cutter in Afghanistan, with Brits on the radio saying the Yanks just nuked the place.

[kilo delta]

Yes it is, Ken, and then there was a couple of trips I had with a First Officer who knows you from your MC-130 days, lol. I liked the story about dropping the Daisy cutter in Afghanistan, with Brits on the radio saying the Yanks just nuked the place.

Hardly surprising! :icon_lol:

RfHHDwDWZwg

[Bjoern]

I didn't drink a drop of coffee on that flight, but others on the crew did. We did have an augmented crew, one additional navigator and additional pilot and we rotated in and out of the seats. But, in terms of any sleep, I got to the point where I could sleep on the Herc because I got used to the constant engine sounds and I wore ear plugs. But, I confess that I probably got only a couple of hours sleep in what I recall was 36 plus hours in the air!

The human ability to sleep about anywhere with some amount of getting used to the environment is amazing.

But I guess it must've been frustrating on a Herc. You nap for one or two hours and you still haven't crossed France. :icon_lol:


By the time we got to Kuwait, I lost all concept of day of the week -- it had no meaning!

Welcome to software developing world. :icon_lol:


I think I basically lost an entire calendar day of my life on the planet due to the change in dateline heading east!

Wouldn't you've gained it back on the return leg?

[Skyhawk_310R]

The human ability to sleep about anywhere with some amount of getting used to the environment is amazing.

But I guess it must've been frustrating on a Herc. You nap for one or two hours and you still haven't crossed France. :icon_lol:



Welcome to software developing world. :icon_lol:



Wouldn't you've gained it back on the return leg?

Oh thanks! Way to rub it in there, big guy! LOL!!

In terms of gaining it back, the trip back was in multiple legs as I recall, so it wasn't the same. But, I sure enjoyed the pint of Strongbow at the Bird in Hand outside Mildenhall!

Ken

[Bjoern]

Oh thanks! Way to rub it in there, big guy! LOL!!

S-s-ssstrike! :icon_lol:


In terms of gaining it back, the trip back was in multiple legs as I recall, so it wasn't the same. But, I sure enjoyed the pint of Strongbow at the Bird in Hand outside Mildenhall!

...and the barrels of ale in the cargo hold... ;)

[strykerpsg]

From what I've heard about flying in a Herc, you can't catch much sleep in there if you're not used to it. Or is the noise more bearable with ear protection? (I guess you can't quite shut off the vibration)

:icon_lol:

I don't know about the aircrews ability to sleep, but I personally always slept well on any of the cargo birds, but especially the 130's, with their constant vibration to be very relaxxing. The only time not so enjoyable is when they were flying contour flying and while very exciting to see the huge beasts thrusting about with ease, didn't make for very comfortable sleep. Admittedly always used ear plugs unless jumping, but even when jumping, found the circuit flying to be very calming. On the longer distance flights, the aircrew always allowed you to sprawl out a bit and sleep on the deck, which made the flights hugely much more bearable, so thanks to the airlifter crews.

Matt

[PRB]

I've never flown in a C-130, but our USAF shipmates often transport us Navy types about (and we thank you! :salute:), and everyone I have ever spoken to who has flown in Hercs speak of them with the same loathing and contempt. Loud, cold, and uncomfortable seems to the the universal complaint. I have flown in a C-141 though, from Clark AFB (Philippines) to Diego Garcia, and again from Masirah to Diego G. They were ok. Slept most of the way. No windows. Navy S-3 has more comfortable seats. And better windows... :icon_lol:

[Bjoern]

Maybe we should open a new thread titled "Survival tactics for sleeping in aircraft"...? :icon_lol:

[TeaSea]

Went to Somalia on a C-141 in Dec 1992, forgot my poncho liner (my "woobie" -- without it you "woobie" cold!).

Froze my a** off the whole way! Finally wrapped up in a plastic trash bag and slept on the hood of one of our HMMWV's (the only heat seemed to blow down near where it was chained down).

Then I got to Somalia and spent the next 6 months sweating my a** off!

[TeaSea]

Admittedly always used ear plugs unless jumping, but even when jumping, found the circuit flying to be very calming.

Matt

I always used ear plugs, even when jumping and performing Jumpmaster or Safety duties. Sometimes I'd pry them out of my ears after 2nd point of performance, sometimes I'd pull them out on the ground after the non-PLF I usually did. I found you could actually discern speech better with them in while you were in the A/C.

Did you ever notice how quickly you can fall asleep when you're wearing a parachute harness? I would always drop right off no matter how uncomfortable. Really restricts the blood flow.

[Bone]

I found you could actually discern speech better with them in while you were in the A/C.



Ear plugs filter out high frequency noise for the most part, is why that is. I wear ear plugs every time I fly, and even when just sitting in the cockpit doing preflight stuff and boarding the peeps. The avionics fan, gasper fan, and PACK air all make alot of noise, not to mention Flight Attendants.

[CG_1976]

Ear plugs filter out high frequency noise for the most part, is why that is. I where ear plugs every time I fly, and even when just sitting in the cockpit doing preflight stuff and boarding the peeps. The avionics fan, gasper fan, and PACK air all make alot of noise, not to mention Flight Attendants.

Now this sounds like the CC150 Polaris I dealt with today at Iqaluit. Got to taxi a CC150 out of the FOL to it's parking next to the terminal for it's crew going to CFS Alert. Nono we dont have tugs or push-back bars. My ears are still ringing and sore and the vibrations errr.

[strykerpsg]

I always used ear plugs, even when jumping and performing Jumpmaster or Safety duties. Sometimes I'd pry them out of my ears after 2nd point of performance, sometimes I'd pull them out on the ground after the non-PLF I usually did. I found you could actually discern speech better with them in while you were in the A/C.

Did you ever notice how quickly you can fall asleep when you're wearing a parachute harness? I would always drop right off no matter how uncomfortable. Really restricts the blood flow.

Never took longer than about 10 minutes to doze off in harness, which always drove a reaction to assure none of my appendages hadn't slipped under the leg harness when awakened or the end result would be a high soprano yelling upon chute deployment. As for PLF, mine were always perfect three point: feet, arse and head... always laughing at rehearsals and the new guys in their perfection to land by the book.

Matt

[TeaSea]

I'm 6 foot 2 inches, weigh 230 lbs, and I used to SLAM into the ground. I actually preferred full combat equipment so it would afford some of the shock.

I'm actually responsible for bending the barrels on two M16A1's by landing on them. Broken two ruck frames by landing on the rucks after I lowered them.

Never broke any body parts though.....

[fliger747]

A limit on the fighter transit range is more like how long a guy can sit in one rather than the range of the tanker. The tanker is jusyt carrying more internal fuel, not cargo, so the amount of fuel it can carry internally is rather large. I fly with a bunch of tanker guys but haven't asked them just what the fuel capacity is, though a full loaded KC 135 is heavy indeed (comparatively).

T

[ronvking]

I used to work at Gatwick in the ops department for Trans International (later Transamerica) which operated the civil C-130 (L382 or L100) and took a trip from Frankfurt to Cairo htne back to Amsterdam and Gatwick. Trip I won't forget, in fact it was nearly 30 years ago.

As we took off from Frankfurt we were behind a B747 and as we passed abeam Athens I hear the B747 on the radio in the climb and overtaking us, she had fuel stopped in Athens while we were still plodding along mind you IIRC we cuised at around 300kts compared to the B747 at 480kts.

We got the Cairo and due to the usual chaos there the handlers didnt come to offload the cargo for 5 hours or so then I seemed to spend the time trying to stop them nicking cans of coke from the galley. Even had to thump one who thought I was the "lad for him". Net result was that the crew rest for myself and the loadmaster was a few hours shorter than planned, then company decided to change the outward leg and so the pair of us got about 3 hours sleep but as the flying lads had got the minimum rest that was OK.

Our cargo from Cairo was boxes of green beans and about an hour after takeoff we had a small engine problem which needed attention so we did a tech stop in Athens to fix it. On the next sector I was knacked so went for a "lie down" in the back and found that boxes of green beans can in fact be rather cosy when your'e tired. Net result was a few hours kip only disturbed by the loadmaster waking me up before the descent into Amsterdam. Noise, what noise, from the allisons?

[kilo delta]

A limit on the fighter transit range is more like how long a guy can sit in one rather than the range of the tanker. The tanker is jusyt carrying more internal fuel, not cargo, so the amount of fuel it can carry internally is rather large. I fly with a bunch of tanker guys but haven't asked them just what the fuel capacity is, though a full loaded KC 135 is heavy indeed (comparatively).

T

Or how long the engine oil will last!