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Eoraptor1
January 20th, 2012, 16:38
Okay. I saw Red Tails today. George Lucas, aka Papa Jedi, has been trying to make this film forever, and here’s my review, as promised. First, a bit of background for all my SOH friends. When I was in grad school I was part of a roundtable with author Marge Piercy, who’d just published a novel taking place during WWII. She explained to the class the necessity of knowing things like basic aerodynamics, ammo load and combat radius. One of my classmates, who had a streak of the contrarian in her, asked "Who would know all that?" Myself, not having yet become the shrinking violet I am today immediately said, "The thousands o active duty and retired military, aviation enthusiasts, and history buffs who are going to be the core audience of her novel." I had to stop myself before I went into the development of the P-51 Mustang and its mating with the Rolls-Royce Merlin. I did understand the class was about Ms. Piercy and not me, but I think you can guess by now where I’m going with this. Ms. Piercy obviously felt in order to be considered credible, she needed to get the details as close to correct as she could without turning her novel into a tech manual, but the same cannot always be said of some very famous moviemakers, and it drives, well, people who frequent flightsim/aviation sites crazy. Me, I had a heart attack some years back, so I simply cannot get upset over every inaccuracy.

I have one of the real Tuskegee Airmen on VHS commenting on the historicity of the 1995 HBO film, The Tuskegee Airmen. Once upon a time, before the History Channel was overrun by documentaries on ancient astronauts, they would show movies containing actual historical content, featuring interviews with living participants during the intermissions, and this was such an occasion. The Airman generally approved of the film but gave a few examples of some things that were historically inaccurate, such as the film showing the 99th being equipped with P-51s from the very beginning of their combat tour, rather than transitioning from the P-40, and P-47 and then the Mustang, and that they never attacked with drop tanks still attached to their aircraft. He then went on to say that his daughter had asked him, "Who would know all that other than you guys?" which was the same question my friend had asked Marge Piercy. I mention all this to illustrate the great divide between those who have a deeply invested area of interest and those who do not share that interest.

All that being said, Red Tails is a very old-fashioned movie, with a good deal of sentiment, and religiosity. It reminded me very much of Flying Leathernecks, with Cuba Gooding Jr playing the John Wayne role. At the beginning of the film the screen displays "Based on Real Events" in that blue Lucasfilm Star Wars font so as to inform the audience they’re not going to be seeing a straight-up documentary. The names of the principal officers in the 332nd are altered. The CO, played by Terence Howard, is called Col. Bullard, instead of the real Benjamin O. Davis Jr, in what I’m guessing is a nod to famous WWI aviator Eugene Bullard, and Gooding’s Major appears to be based primarily upon George S. "Spanky" Roberts. The Luftwaffe pilots are as scowling and scar-faced as they would have been in the movie matinees Papa Jedi grew up watching. One of them actually says, "Die, foolish African." I don’t know, maybe German pilots facing the 332nd in combat actually talked like this. The Luftwaffe are portrayed as competent fliers, however, and it’s worth remembering that the Nazi regime was fighting a race war, where it was no longer enough to be white; one now had to be ultra-white. I’ve read as much of Mein Kampf as I can get through, and it’s like trying to breath vaseline.

Racism is depicted in the movie, some of it especially ugly. According to my uncles’ recollections of the period it could have been much more so and been completely accurate, but as George Lucas said on Jon Stewart: "This is not a movie about victims; it’s about heroes." The film faithfully depicts what the Tuskegee Airmen were up against even getting into combat. Some of their staunchest enemies wore American uniforms, and the 332nd’s CO spends a fair amount of screen time fighting bureaucratic battles even as his men are fighting the Germans. The racial incident I expected to see was not depicted, which was interesting to me personally because IMO our current psychopathia does not agree on what constitutes racism. Some Americans see racism everywhere, and I do mean everywhere, while others prefer not to perceive it at all, becoming hostile whenever it’s mentioned. At the risk of sounding like Brother Cavil here, I see this selective hearing, eyesight, and recall as a uniquely human characteristic. Maybe salamanders, barn owls, and Northern Pike can do it too, but if so, I’m unaware of it. A lot of people still have trouble dealing with the fact that the same man who wrote the words, "All Men Are Created Equal" not only owned slaves, but believed dark skin originated with a virulent, and somehow congenital, form of leprosy. Some of us don’t really like our history to have facets; people are supposed to be angels or devils. I suspect most of people are a bit of both. Something I’ve observed firsthand is once a person adopts a world-view and identifies it as Self, it can be a very hard thing with which to compromise. I thought this was very well portrayed in a scene where the Red Tails receive a limited acceptance from some of the Caucasian pilots. Seeing these Terror of the Skies types waiting for the other foot to drop was almost as tense as the aerial combat. At the end of this particular scene is a brief preview of the 21st Century. "We say ‘Colored’ and you get upset. What are we supposed to call you guys?"

The CGI was much MUCH better than I expected from viewing the previews. There was a bit of Return of the Jedi going on in the aerial scenes but most of them were kosher, at least to my eye. It’s obvious from the Star Wars and American Graffiti movies that George Lucas has a love of velocity. There’s one huge exception to the general aerodynamic credibility: a Red Tail copies a maneuver from a Luftwaffe pilot that would have torn apart a Mustang or P-40, and especially the 109 in which it’s originally performed. SOH members will know exactly what I’m talking about the instant they see it. On the whole, however, I was pleasantly surprised. Several of the incidents occurring in the film are composites, meaning something like them actually happened, but the incidents are strung together in the what I assume was in the interest of screen time. This film could have been much longer than it was, and I’m already hearing gossip about a prequel, if Red Tails proves a commercial success.

There’s a good deal of conversation on this forum about Hollywood stereotypes, and this film has its share. Members who’ve seen Top Gun, Flying Leathernecks, or watched Black Sheep Squadron on TV, and you know you all did, will recognize them immediately. 30 minutes in you’ll suspect who’s going to live, who’s going to die, and who’s going to be captured by the Germans, and your suspicions will probably be accurate. There’s the hot-dog Maverick-type who falls in love with the pretty local girl; in a relationship that would have been potentially lethal back in 1940s America. There’s the section leader who drinks too much. There’s the young pilot who really shouldn’t be flying, and there are several paternalistic commanding officers. I’ve given some thought to the perseverance of these archetypes (stereotypes?). Some of them are there because this is what Hollywood believes the audience wants, but some of them are also accurate. Gregory Boyington was a notorious binge-drinker, and also a great fighter pilot. My own family has every ethnic group you can possibly imagine married in to it, largely because of military service.

I'll definitely be wanting this movie when it comes out on DVD, although apart from the production values I really don’t think it’s any better than the HBO movie dealing with the same subject matter. I have a good deal more to say, but want to wait until more of you have seen it. Hope I wasn’t too windy.

JAMES

muletrain
January 20th, 2012, 16:59
Very nice review...thanks.

Not too windy either, IMO. :)

Bomber_12th
January 20th, 2012, 17:04
Thank you James, for your very well-written review! I really hope to get a chance to go and see it in the theatre before too late.

I personally thought it was rather cool that part of Lucas' vision for this movie was to make it like another "Flying Leathernecks" type of film, in his words, a film that has that same classic WWII-era movie/patriotic feel.

SpitXIV
January 20th, 2012, 17:18
Very good review. I'll definitely try to see it. Thank you.

Eoraptor1
January 20th, 2012, 17:18
Thanks for those nice comments. I have more to say, but I need more of you to see the movie!!! I don't want to be a spoiler.

JAMES

GT182
January 20th, 2012, 17:55
Excellent review James. I'll probably wait until the movie comes out on DVD to watch it. No matter what tho, I will see it only because is about the Tuskegee Airmen. That's because I've met, shook hands with, and talked with 11 of these gentlemen from the Philly chapter. That was one special experince I'll never forget.

FlameOut
January 21st, 2012, 03:36
Very nice review and well written.
I'll probably go out this weekend and watch it. I'll treat myself the wife and baby girl, if they'll go with me. I have not been to the theater since we took baby girl to watch Finding Nemo back in the day when she was a little thing.
I'm glad to hear that it is in the vein of good old WWII movies with your statement
...very old-fashioned movie, with a good deal of sentiment, and religiosity...

I've lived in Alabama all of my life and I can certainly say that I was part of, and dished out that "racism", of course I'm not that old but I remember "Segregation now, Segregation tomorrow and Segregation forever!" by our Governor. I was in the second grade of elementary school. All of the turmoil was right here in our cities. I also remember "Integration" and "Busing", when it came to my school. Oh, how I wish I could take it all back! I'm sorry for all that I had done. Only a gracious God has gotten me through these many years of some horrible memories.

Well, back to the movie. Some folks are fearful that the movie will not be historically accurate and that it will be just a lot of razzle-dazzle CGI stuff. I'm glad that you addressed that topic and put my mind concerns to rest.
Well back to Jim D's scenery http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=151470 and the A2A P-40 and P-47

jdhaenens
January 21st, 2012, 05:39
... I did go see the movie with my wife last night and I enjoyed it immensely. The movie is formulaic by nature, but I'm one of those folks who like a certain amount of predictability. It allows me to look at other things while the plot lines work their own way to the conclusion. There were a few visually outstanding gaffes with the props....I've never seen the back end of a P-51 with so few rivets...but folks like us "rivet counters" all to some extent or another, aren't the mainstream Mr. Lukas is trying to get.

I live in the Oklahoma City area and we have a huge Air Force Base here (Tinker) and as expected, there were a number of obviously military folks in the audience. We former/retired military and aviation afficionados could be identified by our flight jackets which varied from obviously fake to genuine (like mine...lol). There were plenty of kids mostly pre teen, mostly male. The demographics of the audience were pretty darn close to the demographics of the area. A strange thing happened when the credits started to roll: almost the entire audience clapped in what I would call respectful applause. There was no wild standing ovation, no Bic lighters held high, but a respectful appreciation of the film. I've been going to this same theater for a number of years and had never seen this happen. It was out of character for that theater. I think Mr. Lukas hit his mark.

James, I think your review was pretty well on the mark, very well written, and I appreciate you giving it. FlameOut, thanks for downloading my scenery. I have to admit I took a few turns around Moton Field in my PT-13 this mornng as well.

Jim

hurricane3
January 21st, 2012, 07:32
Thanks for your insightful review,when the movie comes out on DVD I will definately buy it. One small thing is your right about the Redtails not flying P-51's from the beginng as in the HBO movie ,but they also flew P-39's for a short while after the P-40 then P-47 then P-51. I don't remember offhand which group flew p-39's but I don't think it was for long and I don't know their combat record with these planes, it was probley mostly ground support,and I think they were given p-39's mostly because one raceist commander thought they wern't agressive enough.

Daveroo
January 21st, 2012, 09:10
my dad and i were talking about this movie when the ad came on..he watched the trailer and started cussing...he heard a line in the trailer from the narrator about how "they won the war"...i dont think ive heard it that same way...but he now refuses to watch this movie because it supposedly makes the claim the tuskeegee airmen won the war single handedly...ive argued until im blue in the face its not whats said in the trailer...but he is a stubborn stbborn man......and he holds a grudge.....last year (2011) we went to the EAA flyin at the yuba county airport,this is billed as the "oshkosh of the west" (allways a disapointment though) and a Tuskeegee airman was there signing autographs....when dad and i went over to get his photo and signature..he "didnt have time" for us...he was busy talking golf with some guy....checked back over two hours later and he was still talking golf with the same guy and not one person was at his booth...my dad was really angry at his attitude...he was there to great the people at an airshow and he should have done so...not talked golf with some guy.....and i agree...but dad is so mad at him for it...he is mad at ALL of the tuskeegee airman.....

btw...dad got in an argument with a guy when he was 8 years old and he is STILL mad at the guy.....................................sighs..... ........

rocketred
January 21st, 2012, 09:51
well many will have alot of mopions but one they cant deny is the accurate , in todays digial means - flying and fighter action , very immersed and imho as accurate as one can be from the direction of the few vets from that nera that guided the digital remake with actors and retakes


i feel it was suppose to be more short on political and historical black history and more on there successes and plights of what they did well,



fight and save more lives of the bomber pilots



i was not taking back agian by the lack of political inferences of that era, but was well in true holly wood style - this time taking and listening to the hearts of the vets that flew ////with the added touch of hollywoods finest remasters on digital landscape of the flight and fight action scenes

based on this i gave it a 3 out 5



joshua


ps
a dedicated set of missions are being done by hobbit for eto forthing in days , his work in maw on them was great , so stay tuned in the release in days from hobbit for eto/cfs3

beana51
January 21st, 2012, 10:45
Thanx for the Review, ,will see this flick!....So many Movies about Air War...never meet one I did not like..I had an opportunity to once again see the Howard Hughes classic .."HELLS ANGELS"..it is apparent they filmed the old fashioned way!....those WW 1 scenes were incomparable......Today, in film what we see often is not!..But discounting the Tech stuff most Air Movies today ,look like my Flight Sim.....The "Red Tails",Great story of Americans,in war!! :salute:

Moses03
January 21st, 2012, 11:01
James- Well said Sir. :salute:

Interesting, this movie is being slammed over at WIX and other points on the web by "aviation and war experts" who probably were all born after 1960. Good to see some positivity here at SOH. I just got back from seeing the film and really enjoyed myself. No nitpicking over squadron markings or rivets here. Just a good old fashioned war movie with terrific CGI.

Made me want to fire up a P-51 and B-17 in FS!

Moses

Trans_23
January 21st, 2012, 14:42
I had a friend post on his Facebook Page last night that Red Tails was the worst movie he has ever seen. Also got a very bad review in a Chicago paper I was reading on the way to work. I am one of those that will wait for the DVD to come out. Theaters are a ripoff so that wasn't probably ever an option for me anyway.

Eoraptor1
January 21st, 2012, 15:34
I had a friend post on his Facebook Page last night that Red Tails was the worst movie he has ever seen. Also got a very bad review in a Chicago paper I was reading on the way to work. I am one of those that will wait for the DVD to come out. Theaters are a ripoff so that wasn't probably ever an option for me anyway.

He's entitled to his opinion. Like I said, this movie has an old-fashioned sensibility. No sense of detatched irony, no snark, very little foul language (probably inaccurate for line military) and a central scene with a prayer circle. Not everyone responds to that sort of thing. They find it manipulative. I hold it about on a par with the HBO movie, although with much higher production value. You're right about the ticket prices. I paid eight USD for a matinee. I did not buy popcorn. I could buy a six-pack of beer for what a medium Diet Coke cost.

JAMES

PS Thanks once again to everyone for the nice comments about my review, and for ignoring the grammatical errors.

Panther_99FS
January 21st, 2012, 16:04
To para-phrase from the video that FerryVO posted in another thread:

>>Lucas had to fund the film himself since no big/major studio would essentially fund a movie with an all black cast<<

airattackimages
January 21st, 2012, 16:53
I saw it today and loved it. Its a great, fun airplane movie for people like us. There is enough details and flying action to keep an aviation nut happy and engaged. The cgi is very well done and *most* of it is executed in believable fashion. Great flying fun. :)

HorusJ
January 21st, 2012, 19:41
Liked it a lot.:applause::applause::applause::applause::appla use:

DennyA
January 21st, 2012, 22:27
Okay, DO NOT WAIT FOR DVD ON THIS. This is the most exciting, awesome air combat ever done in a movie. It's AMAZING to see on the big screen, and it's not going to be anything like that on the TV at home. If you're on this forum, you need to see this on the biggest screen it's showing on in your city.

This is a recap i wrote for Quartertothree.com, which is a general gamer forum, not flight sim/aviation buffs.


I saw it today, and it's definitely a throwback to 60's WW2 movies: It's "type" characters (the rebel, the drunk, the religious guy, etc.), the history is necessarily simplified because it's a two-hour movie, and the German pilot lead is as evil as evil can be.

But you know what? I freaking loved it. As a WW2 aviation buff, it was a blast. The CGI was superbly done, the air combat was super-exciting, and the only part that disappointed me as a hardcore aviation nut was a pilot who decides to do the Top Gun "Maverick" maneuver.

The story on the ground? As by-the-book and predictable as any Technicolor WW2 movie, but not boring. But while it simplified history (c'mon, it's a movie, not Churchill's multi-volume war history), the basic flow of events and the successes of the squadron are true to what really happened.

A good half of the movie is airplane porn, and it's about 10x better and more authentic airplane porn than Top Gun. If that will entertain you, go see this on the big screen. If you're "meh" on the flying stuff, then the ground drama's not going to do it for you.

As a mainstream movie? 2.5 stars out of 4
As an aviation buff film? 9 on the 7-to-9 scale.


(The 7-9 scale thing is a reference to most video game reviews falling on that scale.)

Willy
January 21st, 2012, 23:49
I guess I'm lucky. Our little rural movie theater charges $5 cash a head to see a movie ($5.50 with debit/credit card). Sometimes they're a bit behind the big town theaters on showing one, but usually they open on the same dates. I'll probably go this week to see Red Tails.

DennyA
January 22nd, 2012, 08:48
Heck, even if it's $10, it's still worth it. Someone spends $100 million to recreate stunningly realistic aerial battles with unprecedented realism on 30-foot-tall screen for two hours, and you're going to let $10, the price of a decent burger meal, keep you from seeing it because of some perceived value judgment? I understand some folks are retired or otherwise on tight budgets, but if you're an aerial combat aficionado, you're nuts if you let the price of a movie ticket keep you from seeing this.

Seriously. It's awesome. It's worth the price of a three-pack of cheap tube socks, people. Sheesh. Just don't buy the ripoff concessions.

Trans_23
January 22nd, 2012, 09:53
Last movie me and the missus went to cost $40 between tickets and soda and popcorn. Probably sprung for some overpriced Milk Duds too. Someday I will remember to stop at the Walgreens across the street and smuggle in the Milk Duds. :icon_lol:

Eoraptor1
January 22nd, 2012, 10:00
Someday I will remember to stop at the Walgreens across the street and smuggle in the Milk Duds. :icon_lol:

That's the move. Tell Mrs. Trans to put the Milk Duds in her handbag. The studio makes money from the films; the theater makes it's money from concessions, which is why they're so high.

JAMES

warchild
January 22nd, 2012, 11:34
Mr Lucas did more than make just a very good movie. Its my suspicion that he felt the enormity of historical responsibility that is associated with this particular group of men. At the same time that he was producing the movie, he was also producing a documentary called "Double Victory" . At 90 minutes long, its almost a movie within itself. It originally aired not only on the History channel but in several theaters as well. A very nicely done review of the documentary can be fund at http://www.theroot.com/views/double-victory-entertaining-history-lesson

I encourage everyone to take the movie as its offered: a well done piece of historical drama, and watch the documentary "Double Victory" for the reality you seek.. Double Victory is currently scheduled to re-show on the History channel on Febuary 12th.


Pam

airattackimages
January 22nd, 2012, 17:28
Yep, I scheduled my DVR to record Double Victory the night it aired. I watched it last week. :) Good show. Fox News also ran a special episode of War Stories with Oliver North on the 99th today. I recorded that as well. Plan to watch it later. :)

limjack
January 23rd, 2012, 13:49
Inspirational and Powerfull movie. Big screen for me and loved it. What a battle in all ways.

Jim

brad kaste
January 24th, 2012, 07:52
I had a friend post on his Facebook Page last night that Red Tails was the worst movie he has ever seen. Also got a very bad review in a Chicago paper I was reading on the way to work. I am one of those that will wait for the DVD to come out. Theaters are a ripoff so that wasn't probably ever an option for me anyway.

Trans,....trust me on this,...you'll be doing yourself a disfavor by waiting for the DVD of 'Red Tails' to come out. Even with (I assume) your HD widescreen TV at home,...it won't do proper justice as it's shown at your local theater. You'll get totally immersed within the movie from the moment it begins.
Lucas did a superlative CGI job in creating the atmosphere at these forward fighter airstrips. Which I found more interesting in a certain way than the dogfight scenes. It was wonderful to look down the flight line and see either P-40's or P-51's lined up wing tip to wing tip. There is no way one could tell between the real/or mock fighter in contrast to the CGI ones. It was seamless for the most part. Only the vast armadas of flying B-17's did it appear a bit artificial. But not by much.
And as some of you fellows mentioned,...Lucas kept it to an ol' fashioned movie production (bravo!)...with a wonderful cast of actors. No hidden meanings,...other than the overt indecency of racism which ran deep throughout the military at that time.
For sure,...it deserves a return 2nd big screen viewing. Like a good book,...I'm sure there's stuff I missed the first time through.<label for="rb_iconid_14">http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/icons/icon14.png</label><label for="rb_iconid_14">http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/icons/icon14.png</label>


Hats off to the 'Red Tails!'

cheezyflier
January 24th, 2012, 20:19
To para-phrase from the video that FerryVO posted in another thread:

>>Lucas had to fund the film himself since no big/major studio would essentially fund a movie with an all black cast<<


or maybe that's just hype, intended to sell tix? i mean, if you really believe that, you have to ask yourself: who funded the players club? how about harlem nights? how about coming to america? cooley high? the color purple? boyz n the hood? biker boys (kid rock not withstanding) everything tyler perry ever did. much of spike lee's early stuff has an all black cast. i mean seriously dude. that's alot of great (and not so great) cinema to ignore. none of those movies got made by passing the hat in church.

DennyA
January 24th, 2012, 20:43
or maybe that's just hype, intended to sell tix? i mean, if you really believe that, you have to ask yourself: who funded the players club? how about harlem nights? how about coming to america? cooley high? the color purple? boyz n the hood? biker boys (kid rock not withstanding) everything tyler perry ever did. much of spike lee's early stuff has an all black cast. i mean seriously dude. that's alot of great (and not so great) cinema to ignore. none of those movies got made by passing the hat in church.
None of those cost $100M to make,.

Eoraptor1
January 25th, 2012, 07:56
None of those cost $100M to make,.

Denny, you beat me to it. Low-brow comedies are very cheap to produce, unless it's something like the Blues Brothers where the director feels the pressing need to crash a bunch of cars in the middle of a shopping mall. Digital horror movies are even cheaper. I was friends with an indie film-maker, and he insists the industry NEEDS these movies, because it gives the cameramen, sound editors, makeup artists, grips, gaffers, and everyone else who doesn't make Keanu Reeves' salary a paycheck, and a chance the practice their trade. They also give young actors a chance to work. You wouldn't know it watching the Golden Globe Awards, but more of the SAG membership are waiting tables and working other low-paying jobs waiting for a call back than there are walking the red carpet. Jamie Foxx made Booty Call before Ray, and Tom Hanks made Bachelor Party before Saving Private Ryan.

Tyler Perry is a k-billionaire because he saw there was a vast African-American audience who wanted humorous material covering issues they could relate to, with a Christian undertone, not fetishing gangsterism, and felt there was no material being made for them. He started out making stage plays, and then videotaping those plays (again, inexpensive) and moving up to film. Not every critic likes Perry, however. I'll not get into the politics of that issue on an aviation site, though. Here's a link to a contrary opinion of Red Tails given to me by another friend: http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html (wlmailhtml:{EB866A32-B661-47D9-8CB1-87D3BF3AE660}mid://00000002/!x-usc:http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html)

JAMES

Trans_23
January 25th, 2012, 14:43
James, that link takes me to a blank page.

Panther_99FS
January 25th, 2012, 17:24
or maybe that's just hype,.

Or maybe not...

Eoraptor1
January 25th, 2012, 17:42
James, that link takes me to a blank page.

Yes I see that now, but it work in the message in which I received it. You might try pasting the address into your browser, the website hosting the account may not want linking from other sites, although I don't understand why a service would want less people reading a blog. There's nothing earth-shattering in the review; the writer just thinks Red Tails is a bad movie, and black people shouldn't feel obligated to spend their money on a bad movie just because it has black people starring in it.

JAMES

AckAck
January 25th, 2012, 18:17
http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html

The original link had a bunch of mail stuff in front of it: wlmailhtml:{EB866A32-B661-47D9-8CB1-87D3BF3AE660}mid://00000002/!x-usc:http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html, which if you cut it down to just the web address, works fine.

Panther_99FS
January 26th, 2012, 16:26
From another forum:


What is it about?

Eoraptor1
January 26th, 2012, 18:59
http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html

The original link had a bunch of mail stuff in front of it: wlmailhtml:{EB866A32-B661-47D9-8CB1-87D3BF3AE660}mid://00000002/!x-usc:http://scottwoods.livejournal.com/402639.html, which if you cut it down to just the web address, works fine.

Thanks for that, AckAck. I love a computer-literate forum. I have nothing against the fellow in the link, I just don't agree with him. Goes to show how two different people can look at the same thing and see something very different.

JAMES