Helldiver found?

[Lateral-G]

A purely random find 4 miles off the coast of Jupiter, Florida.....

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2011/12/26/fl-divers-find-plane.wptv

[GT182]

Great find. It would be great if it could be restored, seeing there's only one in the world flying. But it looks pretty bad to even try and move it.

[Bomber_12th]

Great find. It would be great if it could be restored, seeing there's only one in the world flying. But it looks pretty bad to even try and move it.

That won't be anymore, in a few year's time, as there are as many as three that are under restoration to flying condition at this time. ; )

[Panther_99FS]

They could've just come to this forum & found him......:bump:

[SSI01]

I discovered through practical experience the U.S. Navy NEVER releases title to wrecked aircraft no matter where they are located. They are considered U.S. Navy property in perpetuity. The AF, on the other hand, loses all interest in an aircraft after it crashes or ditches and it's fair game for divers and/or souvenir hunters.

I wonder how violent the ditching was - if it was a ditching. It's my understanding the Navy, at the end of WWII, simply jettisoned hundreds of aircraft over the sides of its carriers at sea rather than cart them back to be stored at their expense until they were melted down for scrap. This could be one of those aircraft. The gear being retracted, it probably was a ditching. The AAF bulldozed many hundreds, if not thousands, of its aircraft at the end of the war rather than transport them back to CONUS. If this was a ditching, it's possible the bird sank pretty quickly. It certainly flipped on its way down, as shown in the video. The crew may still be aboard.

[TARPSBird]

Somewhere in the sand there's a crumpled vertical stab with a Bureau# on it, possibly still legible. Also the engine serial plate and maybe (although I hope not) personal effects of the crew. A little gentle cleaning on the underside of the port wing may show a letter code and side#. As SSI01 commented, the Navy loves all their little airplanes and wants to know where they are even 60+ years after they've been lost. They'll figure out how it got there. :icon_lol:

[stansdds]

That's fairly warm salt water, the corrosion would be extensive. I think it would prove to be a difficult restoration... if the USN would even allow it to be recovered.

At least the reporter did not call it the "Son of a Bitch 2nd Class".

[TeaSea]

USN considers airplanes to be ships. In fact, most early aviators referred to aircraft as ships.

Under international law, all warships are to be considered the property of nation they are registered to, no matter how long they have been lost. The exception being if they have been taken in combat or treaty by another nation.

This leads to some amazing legal battles as the status of a particular vessel is argued out in court. Usually it involves privateers although the status of Spanish ships is always being fought since many cargo vessels were also warships.

For the legal principle alone, if this find can be established to be a Navy aircraft, then I suspect the Navy is prepared to fight for it. To not do so would be accepting a change in this old precedent.

150 Feet is pretty deep for sport diving....deepest I ever went 9back in the day) was 80 feet, although some of you regular divers may be just getting started at that depth.

[SSI01]

This may turn out to be a very important point. If this bird is an AAF A-25, it's fair game for whoever can salvage it. I agree with the assumption re: corrosion, which may render salvage a moot point unless one is willing to transform it into a museum exhibit, as was done not too long ago with what was left of an SBD-3 dredged up from somewhere. I was in Pensacola seven or eight years ago and recall seeing the remnant in a large diorama depicting it on the sea bed. The background and lighting effects were impressive BTW.

The Navy does allow salvage of crashed aircraft but only after the salvor meets very stringent criteria regarding methods used and the disposition of the aircraft afterward. I was present on the salvage barge in the Chicago River back around '93 or '94 when a local Chicago salvage firm working for the Navy brought up an FM-2 from the bed of Lake Michigan. It still had the blank charge in the Kaufman starter, and the markings were quite clearly discernable. There was minimal corrosion and very little structural damage. I don't know where it is now.

Sometimes these things can be salvaged only for certain parts due to their overall physical state. This one looks at first blush as well beyond even that stage.

[Willy]

Most of the SBDs that have been salvaged from underwater were in Lake Michigan and in excellent shape considering how long they were underwater. It was quite popular later in the war for training pilots on carrier landings on the "paddle wheel carriers" used there.

[stansdds]

Most of the SBDs that have been salvaged from underwater were in Lake Michigan and in excellent shape considering how long they were underwater. It was quite popular later in the war for training pilots on carrier landings on the "paddle wheel carriers" used there.

Yep, and Lake Michigan is fresh water and very cold water, which makes it fairly good at preserving things that sink to its bottom.

[SSI01]

Superior's even deeper and colder, making it an excellent artifact preserver - see accounts of visits to Edmund Fitzgerald.

[Willy]

I got this at the SOH "Help Desk" and thought I'd share it.

Hi,

I am Tony Grogan, the owner of the world's largest spearfishing website forum called
Spearboard.com.

I read your forum's thread about the Helldiver plane that my friend Randy Jordan
found. I am part of the second dive team that has been diving the wreck. Some of our
youtube videos are linked in your thread's posts.

There is a very long thread on Spearboard about this wreck started by Randy Jordan
(screen name rjnjupiter)
when we first thought it might be an Flight 19 Avenger. My screen name is Spearmax.

I wonder if you can please post up a link to the latest video still frames I posted
in number 62 at the following link and ask the fellows if they see any more clues
there?

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=138092&page=5

Also, please review our measurement video at post 31 on thai page of the thread:

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=138092&page=3

The idea some of your members that the plane might be AAF A-25 plane is interesting.
However, I believe they had three blade props according to this:

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10552010&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=1

America's new dive bomber - 21-February-1943

‘The new Curtiss A.25 dive bomber is now being delivered to the US Army Air Corps.
This plane, reckoned to have greater speed, range and striking power than any other
dive bomber in the world, is a two-seater, mid-wing monoplane with a 1,700hp Wright
‘Cyclone’ engine, three-blade propeller and retractable landing gear. ‘


Randy and I will be diving it over the next several days and appreciate any input
your users have.

Thanks, Tony Grogan</pre>

[SSI01]

Well, anything is possible - research will have to be done re: whether the AAF got A-25s directly from Curtiss or let Navy buy them and accept a transfer from the Navy - which means the aircraft could be a four-blade A-25 with a USN bureau number on its plate but AAF serial no. on the vertical stab or under the wing, as previously mentioned - I know AAF painted the serial no. on A-25s under the left wing, but it's highly unlikely it's still there given the corrosive effect of the salt water. Squadron-Signal publications' "Curtiss SB2C Helldiver in Action" has a good photo of an A-25 in it, but I can't recall if it's a three or four-blade prop. Then of course, a new prop may have been installed during an overhaul or upgrade, along with a new engine.

Were there any AAF airfields in the vicinity of this find?

[Willy]

Just from the fact that it's way out at sea, makes me think that a AAF aircraft is just wishful thinking.

[Willy]

More info from the divers..


http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=1587218&postcount=112

</pre>

[SSI01]

Everything I've seen re: A-25s indicates the aircraft wasn't really wanted by the AAF but had to be accepted due to contract commitments. Curtiss was providing aircraft - including the mediocre, like the SB2C/A-25 - to the war effort and the production lines had to be kept going for the duration, so AAF got some of these things whether they wanted them or not. They were used by AAF for squadron/station hacks, target tugs, radar calibration and other miscellaneous duties - including inshore ASW patrol, just like CAP. Four miles out ain't that far as the crow -or the A-25 - flies. Some were sent to the Canal Zone for ASW patrol duties - lots of water there. I think that was 2nd Air Force's bailiwick and they used anything they had to hand - like B-18s, B-23s, O-47s and A-24s - for ASW work. Come to think of it, the Gulf of Mexico and SE U.S. was, I believe, 2AF territory as well.:kilroy:

[SSI01]

A database located at ArmyAirForces.com shows two airfields in the fairly nearby area to Vero Beach that might have employed A-25s. Locations are Kissimmee and Orlando. Each belonged to the AAF School of Applied Tactics, and may have used A-25s. Just food for thought.