Need Front Face Picture of ...

[Milton Shupe]

An Avia R-12 engine. I thought this might be the best place for a chance to find such a thing. :)

I have a nice side picture but need the front face for the details.

Thanks in advance for any help offered. :)

[Hurricane91]

Searching. Will you be needing three of them?

[Milton Shupe]

Searching. Will you be needing three of them?

Three engines, one good bmp. :-)

And, if you can find any info on the Avia 156 other than data at Wikipedia, that would be great.

[Hurricane91]

So far have only found photos of the RK 12's big brother, the RK 17, but it had nine jugs. Dang.

http://en.valka.cz/files/img_0361_186.jpg

Will keep looking.

[Moses03]

You revisiting the Avia 51 Milton? It had the RK 12's. The 156 was fitted with a Hispano-Suiza from what I have read.

http://www.avia-club.com/models.php

You probably found this already:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934 - 0054.html



All I had in my library was a couple of pages from Howson's Aircraft of the Spanish Civil War. Maybe Lefty will be along with something?

[Milton Shupe]

So far have only found photos of the RK 12's big brother, the RK 17, but it had nine jugs. Dang.

http://en.valka.cz/files/img_0361_186.jpg

Will keep looking.

Thanks, I appreciate that a bunch!


You revisiting the Avia 51 Milton? It had the RK 12's. The 156 was fitted with a Hispano-Suiza from what I have read.

http://www.avia-club.com/models.php

You probably found this already:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934 - 0054.html



All I had in my library was a couple of pages from Howson's Aircraft of the Spanish Civil War. Maybe Lefty will be along with something?

Thanks Moses. yes, had the flightglobal one, but the other pictur eis the best quality I have seen.

Thanks

[lefty]

Three-quarter shot is the best I can do, Milton. Hope it helps. regards, Mike

[Hurricane91]

The best photo I have of the Avia 51. I will see if I still have acess to Jane's and Aerosphere. I seem to remember that Glenn Angle's Aeroshpere had a large section on engines. The earliest Aerosphere that I am aware of was published in 1939, but Mr. Angle may well have carried photos on the RK-12 to fill out the Czech engine catagory.

51588

...a discussion of the Avias at a modelers site...
http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=310&t=45961

[Milton Shupe]

Three-quarter shot is the best I can do, Milton. Hope it helps. regards, Mike

That's the best picture I have seen of this engine Mike. I appreciate your help. :wavey:


The best photo I have of the Avia 51. I will see if I still have acess to Jane's and Aerosphere. I seem to remember that Glenn Angle's Aeroshpere had a large section on engines. The earliest Aerosphere that I am aware of was published in 1939, but Mr. Angle may well have carried photos on the RK-12 to fill out the Czech engine catagory.

51588

...a discussion of the Avias at a modelers site...
http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=310&t=45961

Now, you have just made available the very best quality picture I have of this beauty, Thank you Sir! Awesome!

[Moses03]

Nice find Hurricane. That is a great shot.

[Hurricane91]

I found some additional information on the Avia engine in the 1939 edition of Aerosphere. There are descriptions of the R12, RK12, and RK17 that allow comparisons but no picture of the R12.
There was no mention of the Avia 51 or the 156.
The 1940 Jane's All The World's Aircraft had neither the aircraft nor the engines (they did have the FW-198:icon_lol:).

Until an adequate R12 photo surfaces, perhaps a "photoshopped" R17 could be substituted.
The dimensions given in Aerosphere between the two are very close. The R12 was 41.22 inches in length, and 42.7 in diameter. The RK17 was 41.93" long and 40.61" in diameter.
The design of the cylinders, heads, and accessories all appear identical. The primary visual differences are the number of cylinders and some crankcase details.
The aeronautical holdings at the Linda Hall technical library are vast and I would be happy to research further as time permits. Hope this helps.

John

[Milton Shupe]

I found some additional information on the Avia engine in the 1939 edition of Aerosphere. There are descriptions of the R12, RK12, and RK17 that allow comparisons but no picture of the R12.
There was no mention of the Avia 51 or the 156.
The 1940 Jane's All The World's Aircraft had neither the aircraft nor the engines (they did have the FW-198:icon_lol:).

Until an adequate R12 photo surfaces, perhaps a "photoshopped" R17 could be substituted.
The dimensions given in Aerosphere between the two are very close. The R12 was 41.22 inches in length, and 42.7 in diameter. The RK17 was 41.93" long and 40.61" in diameter.
The design of the cylinders, heads, and accessories all appear identical. The primary visual differences are the number of cylinders and some crankcase details.
The aeronautical holdings at the Linda Hall technical library are vast and I would be happy to research further as time permits. Hope this helps.

John

Yes sir John; I appreciate that. And when time allows, further research would be most helpful.
I have started the project as a filler while awaiting other things in process.

I appreciate your interest and help.
This era of aircraft is somewhat neglected, and I really like the looks of this one.

[lefty]

Technical details....

[Milton Shupe]

Wow! Great find John! That will be helpful for the flight model. :)

And speaking of technical details, one of the most frustrating things for me is the painstaking process of modeling the fuselage and its face, and major body parts when dimensions are not available, relying solely on a 3-view.

Compare this picture with the 3-view here in gmax.

Note the huge differences in engine sizes and shapes. strut sizes, window and door placement, look at the tail section between door and tail, and general fuselage shape.

So, just a thought when we are critical of designers ...

And this is not to be critical of creators of 3-viewss, they work with the same limited info that we do.

But this is so frustrating and isthe reason I can easily invest 50-100 hours just trying to get the fuselage right comparing 3-views with pictures.
There simply is no substitute for having access to a real aircraft. :)

[Moses03]

This era of aircraft is somewhat neglected

Yes Sir. I'm just glad you have interest. :mixedsmi:

[lefty]

This one gives a sense of proportion......

[Milton Shupe]

Man, those guys look really short! :)

[Hurricane91]

More fuel for the fire.
A small drawing reputed to be from the Avia factory that appeared in the magazine Letectví+kosmonautika in 2001. Note the similarities and differences between this drawing, the photos, and the other drawing. Small thumbnails like this may have been intended to show a new aircrafts general arrangement and dimensions rather than an detailed engineering drawing. Changes made during prototype construction may also account for some differences.

Span 15.1 m, length 10.75 m.

51699

[Milton Shupe]

Ah yes, I do have this one sir aning my small collection. It helpful in verifying dimensions and has the seating arrangement. :applause:

[Hurricane91]

A little more.
Robert Nebasář, the Avia's designer worked on the metal fuselage Lockheed Vega DL-1 (Y1C-12) at Detroit Aircraft before returning to Prague and joining Avia.

This nice salon photo is from my copy of Revolution In The Sky by Richard S. Allen (1964).
51726

[Milton Shupe]

A little more.
Robert Nebasář, the Avia's designer worked on the metal fuselage Lockheed Vega DL-1 (Y1C-12) at Detroit Aircraft before returning to Prague and joining Avia.

This nice salon photo is from my copy of Revolution In The Sky by Richard S. Allen (1964).
51726

WOW! That is an amazing find! This picture shows some detail I hadn't previously seen.

Thanks you so much for your efforts Sir.

Just to let you know, I am working on this diligently (like 10 hours a day) while waiting for other progress on the Grumman project, and I do appreciate all the help.

[Moses03]

Very cool Milton.

Do you have anything on the cockpit? Could be a tough order.

[Milton Shupe]

Very cool Milton.

Do you have anything on the cockpit? Could be a tough order.

Thanks Moses.

No, absolutely nothing regarding the interior except for seating positions.

So far, it looks like I will have to wing it.

I do not intend to make this a project thread, but the historical data collection is extremely important.

I appreciate all the research and assistance.

[lefty]

A different pic here ?

http://anthonysaviation.nl/rareaircraft1.html

[Milton Shupe]

A different pic here ?

http://anthonysaviation.nl/rareaircraft1.html

Whoa! That is awesome! More details that I have not seen before. This is great!

Love this picture. :) :applause:

[Hurricane91]

A different pic here ?

Wonderful photo Lefty. Thanks for posting.

[Milton Shupe]

Oleos Question: According to the article,

"A divided type of undercarriage is used, with long
telescopic legs running to the front wing spar. These telescopic legs are of the oleo-pneumatic type, and have a long stroke. The wheel track is wide, and wheel brakes

are fitted."

I have inspected the few photos I have and cannot see where the suspension action is.

Can you help explain where the upper and lower struts come together?

Is it similar to the DeHavilland Moth series? I can't see that.

[Hurricane91]

Oleos Question:Can you help explain where the upper and lower struts come together?

That is a good question Milton, but I can only guess at this point. I do notice that the hub fairing around the auxilary struts are different between OK-ABV and OK-ABW. Both have a cuff that extends upward on the oleo, but the size would not seem to indicate a long travel. From the description, the working part of the oleo might be on the upper end where it is attached to the wing spar. That would hide the oleo within the engine nacelle. Wish I could be more helpful on this question but I will keep looking.

John

[Milton Shupe]

If you look at the picture I posted above in #27, you can see what looks to be a cuff on the lower right strut, but it would appear upside down. That does not make sense to me. May be it is in the nacelle.

Anyway, I am going to have to do something soon, but of course it's changeable. :)

[Hurricane91]

Milton, thanks for posting the G-max screenies. The Avia sure looks great.

In regards to the oleos, I flew Wiley's Vega around the patch (K34) to observe the landing gear animations. The working end of the oleo appears to be at the top end of the main landing gear strut attached to the side of the fuselage. Just a guess, but Mr. Nebasář may have used the same arrangement, and placed the main strut further outboard to gain a wider track, similar to Fokker designs. The thumbnail posted earlier illustrated a main strut very similar to some Fokker aircraft. Nebasář's final design may have been intended to reduce drag further.

[Milton Shupe]

Thank you; that is the way I will do it then.

Greatly appreciated. :applause: