whats the point

[jeansy]

as the title suggest, its a rant

I seriously have to ask whats the point in this

ive lost count on the number times when a payware addon developer visits here and else where and rants or directs you, when you have issues or questions post it on their forums

the the past hour ive visited 4 fairly well known payware addon developer sites

all 4 sites are a ghost town, even the tumble weeds have packed up and left town , i lost count on how many posts were members have asked for assistance or asked a question and there has been no reply, I honestly can say its not like its a recent post most of them have been around for months view several views, and funny enough devs have posted in the forums since

I can think of 2 sites where the staff have posted screen shots and other staff have commented on the shot but have left everyones posts ignored and where majority of posts had ZERO replies and some even had bumps from the original poster, i can even say there are posts asking if anyone is out there?

so is there such thing as customer service? and whats the point of using these fruitless forums? and it can even be extended to this place, how many times has members raised a question and then you see a reply in the thread 3 posts later about something else, I can recall not long ago where a member asked a question and was ignored several times while a dev replied to other posts

If you dont reply, does that mean the question will sort it self out and disappear?

it just ##### me to tears that some people are quick to take money and complain about rivet counters, but provide very little support or guidance and ignore majority of posts of interested/concerned/potential customers

i for one want to show my gratitude, that members here raise theses issues and we are sorting them out within SOH , otherwise many people would see the effects of global warming before any assistance in reply form on certain payware forums

its just piss poor...:a1451:

[Naruto-kun]

Ok many payware groups request that you get support in their forums because they wish to know whether you legally bought the software (by checking up sales records etc) and if you pirated the software then the consequence is you get no support.

We at Milviz for one are always ready to provide support so if you do get one of our products I can promise the response will be quick.

[Bone]

You have a good point, one I would bet that many have noticed time and time again. It's happened to me, so I know it can be frustrating.

Rant approved! Lol.

[jeansy]

Ok many payware groups request that you get support in their forums because they wish to know whether you legally bought the software (by checking up sales records etc) and if you pirated the software then the consequence is you get no support.

We at Milviz for one are always ready to provide support so if you do get one of our products I can promise the response will be quick.


Hey you guys are alright, there are some shockers out there who dont even reply to general questions about a package that some one is interested in

there is even a forum where beta testers do most of the replies, which normally end in "thats weird we didn't experience that" and leave it at that, no word from the dev, or follow up and sometimes only post PR screenshots on a up coming model

after having a detailed look tonight , yes you guys are doing quite well

[Barnes]

I agree completely with this rant :applause:

[dougal]

Wow Matt! How bizarre this is... Yesterday, I typed out a post almost identical to yours, only MUCH longer, and listing many more points regarding recent trends amoung payware developer support, and attitude towards customers.

Before hitting the 'post' key however, I read it again, and said out loud to myself.... "Oh, what's the ******* point". It currently sits on my desktop as a three page Word document!

There really does seem to be 'something in the air' lately from more than just a couple of devs/publishers.

Hopefully, things will change.

[n4gix]

While it is true that many times some developer's forums appear to be wastelands where replies -if any- are few and far between, sometimes what isn't seen is that many such questions are taken care of either via PM's, email, or even telephone...

Some questions and/or problems touch on sensitive areas where public discussion would reveal too many details about product protection for example, so such are handled privately.

By and large though, the majority of reported problems are either local hardware/software issues or PEBKAC type errors. In the latter case, those too are handled privately so as not to further embarrass the poster. I try to remember to post a reply to the effect that the issues were resolved offline, but sometimes forget to do so.

[falcon409]

Good points Matt and something I've found has become a trend, and one I don't think is "convenient" to everyone is the trend towards moving support and basic forum posts to "Facebook and Twitter". I have a Facebook Account, yet every day I see subtle changes to even my personal page, things that looked one way yesterday have suddenly changed and "where did all that stuff I posted yesterday get to?"

I understand that a lot of folks use Facebook and Twitter, but it's not universal and many folks find it confusing and irritating that they have yet another site that requires an ID and Password, lol. Honestly, if you couldn't answer posts for help in a confined area like your own website Forums page, why would you think that suddenly by moving to Facebook, it would get any better? Have you seen a typical page in Facebook? It's paragraph after paragraph of replies, some related and some not and after a full day of postings, that question you asked has disappeared down the bottom of the page. If the developer isn't constantly monitoring the pages, I promise you, your question (and possibly even the answer) will be lost. I don't see the advantage.

[Shane Strong CYHZ]

I think the internet with its non face to face interface between the customer and the seller is a big factor. If I buy something local I can walk in the store and they have to deal with me. Online its the who cares attitutde. I am to busy working on the issue, building something else, we are on vacation for 6 months, Pirates stole my product, the project lead left, there is no one in charge we are a group, These are comman reponses from different internet companys providing products. How much support do we offer you for your $50 dollar purchase, we dont have the time, you need to pay more for our support?
Common guys no mater how big or small your project is if your asking people to buy your product and spend there hard earned money you have to give them a working product. If you cant offer support take your fourms offline and state that up front to the person buying it. I should be able to get out of the parking lot before the tire falls off :)
If your offering computer software, you have to know you will be selling to people with different computer knowlege behind the keyboard from the 12 year old kid to the 80 year old retirie. On this point after a certain length of time a product is out you have to end your support too ie something thats been out for 3 years built for xp you might drop but atleast email your customers and tell them the warrenty is ended.
just had to add my two cents
Shane

[AndyG43]

Good points Matt and something I've found has become a trend, and one I don't think is "convenient" to everyone is the trend towards moving support and basic forum posts to "Facebook and Twitter". I have a Facebook Account, yet every day I see subtle changes to even my personal page, things that looked one way yesterday have suddenly changed and "where did all that stuff I posted yesterday get to?"

I understand that a lot of folks use Facebook and Twitter, but it's not universal and many folks find it confusing and irritating that they have yet another site that requires an ID and Password, lol. Honestly, if you couldn't answer posts for help in a confined area like your own website Forums page, why would you think that suddenly by moving to Facebook, it would get any better? Have you seen a typical page in Facebook? It's paragraph after paragraph of replies, some related and some not and after a full day of postings, that question you asked has disappeared down the bottom of the page. If the developer isn't constantly monitoring the pages, I promise you, your answer will be lost. I don't see the advantage.

Wasn't going to join this thread, because I know my opnion is unwelcome to many of you, but ......

As I have mentioned before, in a previous thread, the Facebook approach has some serious upsides to it; I was able to 'talk' with Larry in real time to sort out a problem with the Banshee pack uring the recent promotion, the whole thing took about 30 minutes - would probably have taken days via a forum. Sure, it is not for everybody, but don't dismiss it.

I've seen a comment elsewhere to the effect that Facebook is an open door to hackers; don't know if that used to be true (it's never happened to me, and I've had a Facebook account for about 8 years), but they security options are pretty thorough now. And yes Falcon, I agree, the constant changes to FB are pretty irritating, but there are ways for suppliers to manage that (setting up a group, for example).

Naruto-kun, they want us to use their forums so they can prove to themselves we are legit? Not going to comment on that directly, upsetting developers tends to be frowned on around here!!! But ..... I started a similar thread to this over in FS9 a while back, because I was as fed up as Matt was at the (lack of) support I was receiving from a couple of companies; one of them, Flight1, eventually sorted out my problem, but only after receiving a very rude response to my support ticket & making a comment in their public forum that they could not see my order (i.e. implying I had a pirated copy). The reason they couldn't find it, and why the product would not reinstall, was because the order was so old it had not been transferred to their new database; a suggestion I made to them at the start of the process, which they chose to ignore. The other company, Virtavia, have never responded to a couple of support requests. Frankly I'm unlikely to be putting much money in either direction at the moment, as I don't feel the support will be there if anything goes wrong.

OK, that is MY rant over. I'll get my coat & go back to FS9.

[robert_basil]

Who ever does the support and how they do it is going to be different from each company, I just want them to remain professional to me, the customer, and trouble shoot the problem in a timely manner.

[Roger]

For those that like Facebook it seems to be a viable alternative to devs' forums. I don't see it as an issue personally although I'm not keen on it myself.

[whitney17]

Right on Jeansy! They don't respond or they use their other favorite, "It's your system", even though every other developer's similar product works just fine. I have a problem where one developer's planes won't install properly, whereas four or five other developer's planes install just fine. Of course it's my system that's the problem, not their product.

By the way, I see no one is naming names. Is that against the forum rules?

Joe

[N2056]

There are no rules per se, but the thread has been discussed and we would like to not see names. A generic discussion is not a problem. :salute:

[Kiwikat]

I completely agree with you guys.

I'm kind of feeling that FS is wearing out. The communities aren't as active anymore. Payware companies are disappearing or becoming completely silent. There aren't that many players on FS host nor gamespy. People just don't seem very excited about things anymore. Everyone was looking forward to the biggest FS aircraft release (PMDG NGX), but since then, simmers have been quiet. I think we need another product or something to get people talking again. Maybe that product/something is Flight?

[Roger]

I completely agree with you guys.

I'm kind of feeling that FS is wearing out. The communities aren't as active anymore. Payware companies are disappearing or becoming completely silent. There aren't that many players on FS host nor gamespy. People just don't seem very excited about things anymore. Everyone was looking forward to the biggest FS aircraft release (PMDG NGX), but since then, simmers have been quiet. I think we need another product or something to get people talking again. Maybe that product/something is Flight?

Fs2008 (FsXI) Fs2010 (FsXII)...didn't happen...but it's still the best we've got, thanks to all those developers who've enhanced our unfinished FsX (Fs2006/2007)

[AndyG43]

........ The communities aren't as active anymore........

You should pop over to the FS9 forum sometime, we're still a pretty lively bunch, a few very interesting things bubbling under. It's the same with the CFS2 & CFS3 guys, MS & the payware guys decided to move onto the next big thing, so they've decided to make their own fun - CFS3 has an especially active community, where they have taken the basic sim is astonishing.

And, to be honest, I think the same applies to FSX. In my opinion some of the most interesting stuff is coming from the freeware guys, the enthusiasts, the community; I saw more buzz & excitement about Rob Richardson's Shackleton than I did about the NGX, for example - amd I know I'm biased, being British, but the guys at Flying Stations are producing some amazing stuff, I bet ther long-awaited Buccaneer will have that same bizz. Also worth noting, in view of what this thread is about, that the level of service & support offered by both Britsim & Flying Stations is impeccable; the oft noted download issues at Britsim (caused, largely, by the demand for their product) was dealt with in the longer term by Rob English putting his hand in his pocket and in the shorter term by alternative download links supplied by the sadly missed Leif. If the payware companies offered me THAT level of service, I would have no issues.

[OleBoy]

This whole topic is not a good thing to have to happen. Hopefully the devs will see where their lack of responding is going and will wake up. I mean, what's the point in having a support forum if there's no lights on in the shop. I know, point taken. When the whole flightsim movie is over, someone turn out the lights and close the door. The whole world is under our feet. I just might by a new pair of shoes and go hiking elsewhere.

[strikehawk]

I was going to stay out of this but I'll kick in my 2 cents, I have had to go to a couple of payware forums to find some answers I had regarding their products. What I found was almost a total lack of involvement from the companies and the users solving the problems. Last year I found a problem regarding fuel consumption on a UH-1Y. I played around with the cfg. found a good solution and then contacted the company in question about the bug and the fix. My email was short, respectful and to the point, any reply? None, zip, nada, they could have at least told me to ---- off. I don't know if the fix was looked at, incorporated or ignored, most likely the last option. As for a forum for them none, you're on your own. There was once a product forum that was very active until it was taken down with no warning, guess what since then I have not purchased anything released of theirs. While the payware forums might be dead from apathy the forums like SOH and HC are visibly active and it's the end users are doing all the de-bugging anyway so why should the payware companies offer any support. Most are unresponsive and a few view you as a pirate until you prove otherwise, one will still accuse you of piracy even after you produce your receipt, product key and first born, so why bother. Freeware is still rolling out and the quality is close to or actually payware, Piglet's offerings come to mind. I just stay away from those places unless I really have to. My rant and two cents, for what they're worth.

[Gibbage]

Our forum is just one way of getting support. There is also E-mail, and I troll as many forums as possible, but since our team is just about 3 people, we cant afford a dedicated support team. So far nothing has really lingered without being responded too within a few hours, and fix mostly in the same day. Considering how small the team is without a dedicated support team, thats rather remarkable. The thing is, a lot of teams are like this!!! Even the biggest teams DONT have a dedicated support person or team. Thats just the result of such a small fan based community. If we sold thousands of products for 40-60$ each, im sure we could.

Also, simply put, support for FSX is just FUSTRATING. You have what "should" be a simple product, not give you any problems with any testers, and once you release it, all hell brakes loose. Why? Simple. You can never test for every situation! You have an unlimited amount of computer configs, OS, pre-installed add-on's and so on. Sometimes DLL's fight, sometimes a product steps on another. You never know till its out there "in the wild" and then you try to do what we can to put out the fires we can.

Overall, we do the best we can with the limited resources we have. The point is to centrally locate support, so what little resources we do have are not spread thin over multiple forums. If someone's NOT filling that obligation, I cant speak for them. Ultimatly, vote with your wallette.

[heywooood]

yeah man I cant say anything negative about anyone who develops addons for FSX...the customer base can be quite difficult to please, even as they forgive M/S for putting a half backed product like FSX on the market.

If I'm going to pay for something for FSX - its going to be something I've looked at for a long time, read reviews and forums about, seen endless screenshots of, to the point that I know what I'm getting warts and all.

It amazes me what some of these developer / artists can do within the less than friendly confines of FSX code - and it amazes me that they are all willing to do it, knowing the relative demands of many of us customers

There's only one place where everything is perfect...and I'm in no hurry to get there just yet, besides - they prolly wont let me in when I do...everybody will just roll their eyes and look at their feet...

awkward

[napamule]

hey,
They will let you in-but only if you have FSX Acceleration and TONS of payware to go with it-but NO support is (FOREVER?) allowed (hehe).
Chuck B
Napamule

PS: I don't own one STICK of payware and never will.

[RCAF_Gunner]

Interesting thread.

I can understand people not wanting to use Facebook. I don't like the way the settings change all the time either but I do use it sparingly ~ mostly to keep in touch with family in other parts of the country. However, I can say from personal experience even if you do use Facebook as a support vehicle there's no assurance your questions will be answered.

My philosophy is the old "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". In other words, if I get poor service from a payware vendor I won't buy from them again even if I like their work. It's not worth the aggravation.

I think there are some really good payware teams/outfits still around and I sincerely hope they continue to be successful because I'm looking forward to continuing to be one their customers.

Cheers,
Rick

[peter12213]

I have to say I know alot of you don't like/use Facebook but it really is worth joining, the fact you can have realtime conversations with developers and just seeing what they are really like as people really is a good thing!

[guzler]

Guys,

There is a danger here to generalise and tar all developers with the same brush. Whilst there are very valid reasons for this thread, I've made many purchases and become a loyal customer due to the personal support I've recieved. Gary at UK2000, Fly Tampa, Ultimate Traffic are a few where I've had issues on installation or simply lost my installation key and had great follow up and support through their websites and there are more. Hopefully, this thread remains on a positive keel and helps to bridge some gaps which are present. I've run a small business and when you're busy being 'the technician' in it, having constructive feedback is useful to help you keep a holistic picture of how you are performing on your customer service as well as all the other aspects that you have to be in control of. Deconstructive critisism doesn't really help anyone as we've seen too many times.

So, I raise a glass to constructive feedback that creates a win/win outcome for developers & flight sim enthusiasts alike :guinness:

Neil

[AndyG43]

Guys,

There is a danger here to generalise and tar all developers with the same brush. Whilst there are very valid reasons for this thread, I've made many purchases and become a loyal customer due to the personal support I've recieved. Gary at UK2000, Fly Tampa, Ultimate Traffic are a few where I've had issues on installation or simply lost my installation key and had great follow up and support through their websites and there are more. Hopefully, this thread remains on a positive keel and helps to bridge some gaps which are present. I've run a small business and when you're busy being 'the technician' in it, having constructive feedback is useful to help you keep a holistic picture of how you are performing on your customer service as well as all the other aspects that you have to be in control of. Deconstructive critisism doesn't really help anyone as we've seen too many times.

So, I raise a glass to constructive feedback that creates a win/win outcome for developers & flight sim enthusiasts alike :guinness:

Neil

Fair comment Neil, even though the Mods have requested we don't "name & shame" the bad, I think it is right to acknowledge the good; I've already commented on Razbam, and the support from freeware modellers - I'll echo your praise of Gary (he has always gone above & beyond), but would like to add Aeroplane Heaven and the guys at Just Flight to my personal list. Heres to to you guys. :guinness:

heywooood, I accept your point about customers being difficult, I have over 30 years experience in sales & customer services, so know what a pita some people can be; there was a recent post here at SOH where somebody was trying to locate a couple of aircraft, when he had received no responses after just 18 hours a very irritable post was made - subsequent to that at least one of his requests was identified for him, yet to see a thank you for that, 48 hours later.

But when I have over 40 product from one company which all use the same installation method, and 1 won't reinstall, then I think 2 weeks to get an answer is less than good service. Take your point Gibbage, I suspect you guys would not have given me the same runaround. But I now have a number of companies where I have indeed "voted with my wallet" solely down to their after sales service.

[TeaSea]

I'm not a developer, or even very good at playing with code, but I do know a little about socialization and how people work together.

I think what you see on line basically mimics how people normally interact in the real world. If you think about it, you have a circle of family, then friends, then co-workers, then other people with similar interests, then companies or agencies you deal with at varying levels. Some of these sets overlap, but most don't.

If you have a problem or are just curious about something, you will normally turn to one of these groups depending upon what your particular issue is. Normally, I will not be asking my wife about the various aspects of an ILS approach into 05 at Lakeland Lindner Airport. Likewise, I won't be burdening my co-workers and boring them to death regards this question. I will however turn to various other aviators of my acquaintance, a CFI or two, and ask their opinions -- and I would normally do that FIRST before I'd go to the FAA. That's basically the way people operate on all levels. We will ask a question of someone we know socially first before we go to an official source. Sometimes that makes no sense at all, particularity if we're discussing a technical issue of which the other party will have no knowledge, but we will do it anyway. People invest in bad stocks everyday as a result--Hell, I've invested in bad stock doing that!

Basically, you'll ask an opinion of those you have a relationship with before you go anywhere else.

The online world is the same. Ironically, the query "what's the point" actually illustrates this. Why not ask this question of developers first? Why not ask your boss? Well, that just doesn't make sense, does it? So, we come here first....we want an opinion from people we have a common social interest with.

The trap for the online world is the anonymity of the forums, and of the web in general. Handed that anonymity, people will let their social norms fall by the wayside (their "manners", assuming they have any) and end up writing things they would never say in person. There are also people who are voyeuristic by nature, and will cause mischief and bully just because they can. It's a bit pathetic in that it provides a certain power that they do not have in their real lives. I like this forum partially because the members are more open, and will actually tell you who they are, something about their lives, and make contributions to the community overall (I'm not nieve, I know there are some of you who have created an on-line persona separate from yourselves, and I'm okay with that). Also, folks here will generally hear each other out and rarely lose their temper online (Don't Type Angry!). This is the only online participation I have (other than professional associations and Facebook) where I have actually met people who are members. Regards the "issues" brought out. I usually have any questions answered by members of this forum through simply following other people's discussions. I almost always have any questions I post myself answered within a day or so, and I've only gone to a developer once or twice (responsiveness varied -- older products generally don't get the attention that newer one's do -- which is understandable from my view).

So, back to the main point.....despite the potential traps of being on the web, the point is....

......because it's the way people are, and it usually works.

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

Another element that’s becoming all too common is the "Quitter" , working as I do with a number of 3PD's the phenomenon is biting our collective asses, modelers who have released aircraft and retired from sight prior to submitting the Service Packs to fix issues or the Source Files to allow it to be done.

Deano has suffered this and paid a heavy price as he gets the blame for not being able to respond to the problems with a solution, a problem not of his making but one his reputation has paid the price for,,, Dream Fleet , that time the owner retired unexpectedly , recently a complex project was 97.8 % finished when a partner withdrew , without word or warning, and the list goes on, one company will close its doors at year end, because they will actually make more money , or loose less of it ( same difference ) if the entire product line disappears from the market ..

The net result of the above situations is a total lack of support for those who did or will purchase any of the dozens of products affected , and the situation will more than likely get worse until Flight is released , that will revitalize FSX and allow for fixed targets again for production, complex systems and heavy metal will be FSX , eye candy and " an approachable flying game " will be the purview of Flive , who will be left come the time to produce models is anybody's guess at this moment . <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

[dharris]

On the subject of facebook, I had it, used it, found better alternatives, your milage will vary, as it should. However, if I go to a devs site to buy a product, and they have a support forum, I don't want to, nor should I have to go to some other site to monitor if my problem gets looked at. If they want to sell on facebook, fine, but on their own website, all business should be open to everyone concerned. I go to a support site for answers and advice, I am not going to monitor more than one spot for answers just because it is more convienent for the dev to "be there" on facebook. I have purchased a fair amount of payware and of the best support I can only count a very few that were helpful, if existant at all. The best was our own Meshman, personal and direct. Helpful before and after the sale. Great products that I still use to this day. No bones about it. I am aware of all the hard work involved, I have worked with programmers for years, and have seen what they have to go thru, would drive me up a wall. But when you decide to charge money for a product, there are things that go with it. If you offer support, that is your responsiblity to see it thru. If you don't think what you do is being paid enough for, charge more and see if the public agrees. Probably 80% of what I buy is fine and I have no problem with it. But it is the 20% that I may need varying degrees of help with, that is where I think I can expect support. If a dev does not want to support what he offers, just put it in the advertisement and let the buyer know up front, it is all part of what we pay for. Let the flames commence now, I am done

[Francois]

As we often say in another (not FS related) forums: this topic is worthless without pictures.

:icon_lol::icon_lol:

Someone mentioned win-win by criticism, but if we don't know who all these bad developers are that various people are alluding to, there's little chance of them learning, now is there? And so then, what's the point of the rant.
Come to think of it, I believe the ones providing bad support/service will a) not read this and b) even IF they do, not react positively anyway.
So that leaves the 'good' developers/publishers/distributors, and they are not targeted to begin with...... but may yet get frustrated reading these things rants.

Life's tough, ain't it? Both as forum posters and as forum readers, I might add.

Let me try and add something positive, in general: here's something I wrote on AOPA's blog about 'our' hobby and favorite pastime: http://blog.aopa.org/letsgoflying/?p=1157

We're not all bad ;-)

[monk1]

as the title suggest, its a rant

I seriously have to ask whats the point in this

ive lost count on the number times when a payware addon developer visits here and else where and rants or directs you, when you have issues or questions post it on their forums

the the past hour ive visited 4 fairly well known payware addon developer sites

all 4 sites are a ghost town, even the tumble weeds have packed up and left town , i lost count on how many posts were members have asked for assistance or asked a question and there has been no reply, I honestly can say its not like its a recent post most of them have been around for months view several views, and funny enough devs have posted in the forums since

I can think of 2 sites where the staff have posted screen shots and other staff have commented on the shot but have left everyones posts ignored and where majority of posts had ZERO replies and some even had bumps from the original poster, i can even say there are posts asking if anyone is out there?

so is there such thing as customer service? and whats the point of using these fruitless forums? and it can even be extended to this place, how many times has members raised a question and then you see a reply in the thread 3 posts later about something else, I can recall not long ago where a member asked a question and was ignored several times while a dev replied to other posts

If you dont reply, does that mean the question will sort it self out and disappear?

it just ##### me to tears that some people are quick to take money and complain about rivet counters, but provide very little support or guidance and ignore majority of posts of interested/concerned/potential customers

i for one want to show my gratitude, that members here raise theses issues and we are sorting them out within SOH , otherwise many people would see the effects of global warming before any assistance in reply form on certain payware forums

its just piss poor...:a1451:

I couldn't agree more. I know exactly which forum you are referring to as an example, I was one of the people who had an unanswered post there. My list of one hit wonders is growing. Developers I've bought from once and will not purchase from again. Poor customer service has consequences. On the other hand, there are some stellar developers who back their products all the way and I'll continue to be a loyal customer to them.

Just a personal preference but I won't deal with a developer who does support via facebook or twitter. This is a hobby after all and I simply vote with my dollars.

[Skyhawk_310R]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

[AndyG43]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

The issue here is not that we have to go to a company's forum for support Ken; I think we all accept that there is a major problem with piracy, and registering in that way is a reasonable request. But when I go to a company's forum asking for support, them virtually accusing me in a public forum that I must have a pirated product is an issue? And when the problem turms out to be an issue with their database, as I suspected all along, it's ok for them not to apologise either privately or publicly? And thats putting aside the fact that they ignored several follow up requests for further support after their initial, frankly offensively rude, response.

Again, I will cite Razbam as a company who have given me excellent support recently; they have their own support forum, the realtime support on Facebook and Ron will often pick up on queries here at the Outhouse. I'm not saying that is the standard that all should aspire to (frankly I think they go above & beyond the call of duty), but ignoring requests, ducking issues, abusing customers & accusing them of piracy in open forum - that ain't good business.

[hae5904]

Just a personal preference but I won't deal with a developer who does support via facebook or twitter. This is a hobby after all and I simply vote with my dollars.

Everyone is entitled for having his/her own preference. But personally, support via facebook (more detailed compared to twitter, using screenshots as an example), is like "talking" on the phone with the dev or one of his/her team.
I call it instant support. Forums on websites need constant monitoring, while eg facebook could even be checked using a cell phone.........black berry or what ever. In other words, facebook is updated faster/and checked sooner compared to an forum on a website.

Hank

[whitney17]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

Ken,

I'm totally sympathetic to your position, and think that all pirates, hackers, spammers, virus creators, etc. should be summarily executed and then given a fair trial. However, when a developer requires the purchase of his product before you can visit his support forums; it gives the impression to me, a potential customer, he's trying to hide serious problems with that product. Just an opinion.

Joe

[Skyhawk_310R]

The issue here is not that we have to go to a company's forum for support Ken; I think we all accept that there is a major problem with piracy, and registering in that way is a reasonable request. But when I go to a company's forum asking for support, them virtually accusing me in a public forum that I must have a pirated product is an issue? And when the problem turms out to be an issue with their database, as I suspected all along, it's ok for them not to apologise either privately or publicly? And thats putting aside the fact that they ignored several follow up requests for further support after their initial, frankly offensively rude, response.

Again, I will cite Razbam as a company who have given me excellent support recently; they have their own support forum, the realtime support on Facebook and Ron will often pick up on queries here at the Outhouse. I'm not saying that is the standard that all should aspire to (frankly I think they go above & beyond the call of duty), but ignoring requests, ducking issues, abusing customers & accusing them of piracy in open forum - that ain't good business.

OK, more than fair. I misunderstood your concerns. Yes, when you pay for a product or service, you have every reasonable expectation to receive prompt, effective, and courteous support. And certainly no customer who purchased the product should be accused in public especially of criminal activity. Piracy is not a trivial action and therefore it cannot be accused of someone in a trivial manner.

My apology for misunderstanding your initial concerns.

Cheers,

Ken

[Skyhawk_310R]

Ken,

I'm totally sympathetic to your position, and think that all pirates, hackers, spammers, virus creators, etc. should be summarily executed and then given a fair trial. However, when a developer requires the purchase of his product before you can visit his support forums; it gives the impression to me, a potential customer, he's trying to hide serious problems with that product. Just an opinion.

Joe

I respect your opinion. However, I hope you can understand that if anyone is allowed to view the support forums that in effect those who illegally obtained the product will receive the same support as those who purchased it with their hard earned money. Moreover, trying to hide systemic problems with the product is not going to get covered up by such a restricted forum. Problems that are not properly rectified will without question get aired publicly, either through product reviews or frankly by customers nailing us to the wall in public forums for the problems. You see the use of restricted forums does not prevent any customer from shouting from the highest mountaintop any and all concerns and dissatisfactions he may have. That's beautiful freedom of speech. But, by restricting the access to the support, only the customers are allowed to access the support given to fix their issues.

In an ideal world, it shouldn't come down to it. But, we most certainly do not live in an ideal world.

Ken

[Gibbage]

I call it instant support. Forums on websites need constant monitoring, while eg facebook could even be checked using a cell phone.........black berry or what ever. In other words, facebook is updated faster/and checked sooner compared to an forum on a website.

Hank

I disagree with this. The moment someone post's something on our forums at KCFS, I get an E-mail sent directly too my personal E-mail with the contents of the post. I got one of those 99$ HP TouchPads and I have it always on, and it notifies me within minutes of a new post. If I dont see a post within a few minutes, its because im asleep ;)

[jeansy]

I was hoping it never became a name and shame thread

the way i see it, no one is asking for handouts, most people are just seeking guidance

but from looking at certain forums and threads here im left saying

its just rude, its no different from having a conversation and being repeatedly ignored

im sure if the shoe was on the other foot and these people were ignored, it wouldn't be a pleasant feeling




but thanks to all that have PM'd me regarding certain devs, I'll make sure i will try and stay clear of them :ernae:

[Gibbage]

I think your post is a very good one. Typically us in the 3rd party dev world must GUESS what the customer wants, see if it works, and go from there. Having an open thread like this allows is to see what the customer wants without the guesswork. Just as long as its civil and no name calling, I think its a very helpfull thread for all of us.

[jeansy]

Thanks

that was kinda the plan,

I was hoping that some people would read this and then go back to their forums and start answering some of these ignored posts from their members or take a more proactive approach to staff/member relations


but on the other hand, i hope it doesnt turn out like some forums where posts get deleted and locked and members get shut down when its clearly a case the member knows more than the dev, on a daily basis like one particular site i know


at the same time i dont want to see devs hung out to dry (with the exception of a few....)

[roger-wilco-66]

Thanks

that was kinda the plan,
[...]



Cheers, Matt. What more can I say... I also hope that in some forums the communication will pick up again.......



Mark

[warchild]

For good or bad, I'm seeing companies being named. Please, leave company names out of this thread, regardless if its praise or prosecution. Not mentioning company names is the only way to maintain fairness in this thread, and I will have to insist on that fairness, even in the face of the intense emotions i know are being held wonderfully in check by you all..
If Names continue to be mentioned, I'm afraid that this thread will have to be closed down, and I really dont want to see that..
From another POV, I think this must be one of the most beneficial threads ever seen in this forum. You guys are awesome..
Paam

[euroastar350]

To add my 2 cents....there are at least 3 vendors I will not do business with again because of piss poor customer support:kilroy:

[Meshman]

Yeah, my name was mentioned! And Thanks to Mr. Harris for that. :applause:

Straddling the middle ground, there's a common word that can (should?) apply to payware vendors and their customers. First, as a customer I should be able to have a reasonable expectation that the product is complete and performs as advertised. Late last year I took advantage of a sale and picked up three planes for $15.00! (No names, please! :kilroy:) Two out of the three perform OK, but the one I really want to fly crashes my XP64 system every time I access it, be it at the main menu or switching in-sim. I could piss and moan about it, but I'd rather wait until I upgrade from XP64 and try the plane on a new install of Win7. For the money that I spent on the product I don't have a lot invested that would go to waste if the problem persists. I like to think I'm being reasonable.

As a payware developer in the past and in the future, I understand and appreciate that my customers should have reasonable expectations that the product performs as advertised. I aim to exceed those expectations whenever possible. Since my work is terrain based it is difficult to run into issues that don't have some solution. But as I forum surf I do see customers, who I believe, have expectations that are not reasonable. A payware airport was recently released and one of the customers is demanding to know why it performs poorly on HIS system. The developer rightfully (IMO) claims it is not a product problem, because everyone isn't complaining. In fact hardly anyone is complaining. But the customer continues to demand to know why it performs poorly on HIS system.

I own five computers. One is 30 years old, another is 25-ish years old, another 10+ years old, one was built 4 years ago and another 18 months ago. That does not qualify me as a hardware guru. But there is the expectation that developers know or be able to diagnose every possible problem that might arise with their product. I don't feel that is being reasonable.

The thread started with a disgust, if I can use that term. about support issues going unresolved or unanswered. I see this during forum surfing or checking up on the competition. Even though I haven't sold a product for over a year (home sale, moving to another state, etc.) I still start my morning by checking my payware email accounts. There are people who gave me some of their money, even if it was a year or two ago. For them to do that gives them a sense of entitlement for continued support for as long as my site shows on the web. That, I do not feel, is the customer (my customer!) being unreasonable.


And I chose the term reasonable, because it means different things to different people. Kind of like a jury weighing evidence and finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to convict. Each vendor and each customer must define reasonable in their relationship and proceed accordingly.

[jeansy]

The thread started with a disgust, if I can use that term. about support issues going unresolved or unanswered. I see this during forum surfing or checking up on the competition. Even though I haven't sold a product for over a year (home sale, moving to another state, etc.) I still start my morning by checking my payware email accounts. There are people who gave me some of their money, even if it was a year or two ago. For them to do that gives them a sense of entitlement for continued support for as long as my site shows on the web. That, I do not feel, is the customer (my customer!) being unreasonable.


this thread was not just about support issues, its any thing including general questions , there are forums with a range of topics ignored,

its about communication, and the lack of it I can link 2 forums right now where >70% of all posts go un answered

[LUCE1]

this thread was not just about support issues, its any thing including general questions , there are forums with a range of topics ignored,

its about communication, and the lack of it I can link 2 forums right now where >70% of all posts go un answered
I do not know if it's any consolation to you, but know that there are software houses that still have a lot of attention to their users.
We at SIM SKUNK WORKS are one of these, and there are others.
Fortunately there are not many, but all requests for support we have received on our forum were answered and solved within the first 24 hours.
There is none user that can disprove us.
cheers
SSW

[Francois]

I do not know if it's any consolation to you, but know that there are software houses that still have a lot of attention to their users.
We at SIM SKUNK WORKS are one of these, and there are others.
Fortunately there are not many, but all requests for support we have received on our forum were answered and solved within the first 24 hours.
There is none user that can disprove us.
cheers
SSW

What was the terminology for this again?
Ah yes, 'shameless plug' I believe? :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: :icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Mathias]

Ya'll not talking bout me, do ya?:kilroy::mixedsmi:

On a serious note, I do like Meshman's approach.
Honestly, I believe that's what most devs around here do, "go beyond reasonable expectations whenever possible".
Can't see a trend into the opposite direction but I may have missed something.

[Francois]

Honestly, I believe that's what most devs around here do, "go beyond reasonable expectations whenever possible".
Can't see a trend into the opposite direction but I may have missed something.

It is the ONLY real way to fight piracy, in fact. Selling to honest customers and providing them not only support with problems, but also compassion with their hobby, and hence BE part of the communities, is what really makes people decide to BUY a product and keep COMING BACK.

Everything else is rubbish :wavey:

[LUCE1]

What was the terminology for this again?
Ah yes, 'shameless plug' I believe? :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: :icon_lol::icon_lol:
Sir,
can you explain better such offensive statement ?

[Francois]

In order to be clear, in what language would you then like it I wonder ? :icon_lol:

One of the mods said NO NAMES a few posts back.... ;-)

[stiz]

I think we need another product or something to get people talking again. Maybe that product/something is Flight?

well for good or bad, Flight is one thing that will get everyone talking once its released :icon_lol:

[LUCE1]

In order to be clear, in what language would you then like it I wonder ? :icon_lol:

One of the mods said NO NAMES a few posts back.... ;-)
completely useless to continue, there is no way to make sense.

[Francois]

well for good or bad, Flight is one thing that will get everyone talking once its released :icon_lol:


"Maybe".... :icon_lol:

[warchild]

Flight, FSX, FS9, X-plane, Rome, Chicago, Shanghai, doesnt matter, wherever you go they all have one thing in common.. You, or me, or jack in the box or whatever, and untill we change our perspectives, the conversations will never change.. Yeah, its true: Flight will get people talking for a while, But you can read word for word what will be said, in the original FSX and FS9 posts from years ago.. THIS thread, has you talking, and its one of the best conversations i've seen: not because its enjoyable ( it isnt ) but because its high time these things were put on the table and discussed..
Mutual compassion is a term that springs to mind. I dont know why, but it does.. The Dev's and the customers understanding one another.. what a concept..
The problem with web based storefronts is they are misleading. They make you think your dealing with a major company of gods know how many people.. It doesnt show the person sitting there mostly alone plugging away at what they love doing in what spare time after their real job has ended for the day..
Nor do the web sites allow for understanding that a modeler/developer isnt necessarily a hardware/software/systems guru.. In fact, usually a modeler/developer, is just that and nothing more.. They are only human beings doing what they love. yeahh, i hear all the arguments about payware being different already.. But thats another flame and doesnt belong here.
There are obviously some places where you simply dont get a response to your call for help. Even a simple " I dont know " seems beyond them. Thats sad really, and hearing the frustrations of the customers gives the rest of us a clue. Most of us DO care what you think and feel after youve gotten our products. Most of us will go way out of our way to help as best we can. But we arent gods. We can only do so much. I'm sorry. Still, most of us do try..

It's sad that conversations like this one have to take place. it tells me that mankind as a whole hasnt grown much further than the tree branch it's swung from in millenia past. but it is necessary. This is how we communicate, learn and grow beyond our limitations. And we have a lot of limitations.

Arguments can be made from both sides of the coin. and honestly most of us here sit on both sides of the coin, as developers and as customers as well.. but theres that human thing again. Demands so high, criticisms so sharp, and gratitude at such a low extreme its almost unforgivable. but thats life for a dev. And most of us still try.. Not one word of thanks is ever said or hardly ever at best, and yet, we know you love what we do. you wouldnt be so angry when it didnt work if you didnt love it. We know this, and most of us try hard to help as best we can. but we dont always have all the answers..
Pam

[Francois]

Well said.

[AndyG43]

Spot on Pam. :applause:

[dharris]

Pam,"But we arent gods." You are right here, YOU are a goddess! I for one try to add good comments when I buy a piece of software, to be fair, most of what I have bought was quite worth the money spent. The range of support is all over the map. What I find most offensive, is when a dev will know about a problem, even before release and then drag his feet for months, promising patches or fixes, then continues to offer more "new" products for sale, like nothing has happened. I have a few that even though the new product seems quite good, I refuse to buy it when the last a/c after nine months has not had a "simple" fix as promised. Fortunatly most devs are hard at making adjustments to their products, and these I will support. Their are a very few that when they release something new, I will buy without alot of reviewing first, they are that good. And I will continue to do this until they slip backwards. I will not "plug" this one person, but he has been fantastic with his support, before and after purchase. I have even emailed him for advice as to if his product would continue to work fine if I bought "this other" devs work. It just doesn't get any better. Thank you Pam for not closing this thread, as I for one, think it is good to get it off your chest sometimes and vent. There will always be good and bad in this world, you just have to watch where you are walking so as not to step "in it". Don

[n4gix]

The problem with web based storefronts is they are misleading. They make you think your dealing with a major company of gods know how many people.. It doesnt show the person sitting there mostly alone plugging away at what they love doing in what spare time after their real job has ended for the day...

Nor do the web sites allow for understanding that a modeler/developer isnt necessarily a hardware/software/systems guru.. In fact, usually a modeler/developer, is just that and nothing more...

Well stated, Pam!

A decade ago there were eight people who shared a common interest and worked well together as a team. Over time, some drifted away for health reasons (either their's or immediate family's), lost interest, etc. Some new folks drifted in, worked awhile, then seemingly droppped into a black hole (or perhaps were eaten by Alien Space Bats). Whatever the reasons, that once dynamic team are now reduced to simply "Two and Half Men..."

Exacerbating the issue is that there are simply few new folks picking up the "development bug" to replace those who've moved on. It leaves everyone at a disadvantage, both developers and customers alike! There aren't enough hours in the day for any person to suddenly find him/herself handling a dozen different "jobs" each day... :crybaby:

[Naki]

It seems some developers dont take criticism well either. I posted what I thought was a carefully worded critique of some pictures of scenery (in beta) of an area I am familiar with in real life. I also praised other shots. The post was promptly deleted. Suffice to say I wont be buying from them again.

[jeansy]

It seems some developers dont take criticism well either. I posted what I thought was a carefully worded critique of some pictures of scenery (in beta) of an area I am familiar with in real life. I also praised other shots. The post was promptly deleted. Suffice to say I wont be buying from them again.

i know the place your talking about, your not the first to say this and im happy to bet my house on it you wont be the last, i lost interest with those forums a long time ago, its beyond the joke there, with the amount of deleting and locking of threads

after i made comment on your forum on the disappointment of, how theyre ignoring the locals and shutting you guys down and deleting your posts at their forum, they now have restricted my account on theirs, funny how i didnt even post on theirs and they hit the silence button, i can only wonder why the many people who can think for themselves dont take a active role there

on a lighter not I got sent a "thingo" regarding that place I will have to share it with you, its the funniest thing ive seen in a long time

[Francois]

ROFL ! Now I can 'guess' which forums you guys are talking about, I really can !! :icon_lol::icon_lol:

[mmann]

ROFL ! Now I can 'guess' which forums you guys are talking about, I really can !! :icon_lol::icon_lol:

I can 'guess' too. I am muzzled and it had nothing to do with anything I posted on their forums.

[robert_basil]

What I can't stand, is you see something that is totally incorrect with a developer's model. You tell them about it, and it's not a little thing, that could be easily missed, but a 'completely' incorrect model almost like it was made up or make believe. So you try to inform them, not to put it down, but to help them, and they get defensive, they have their own team members attack you and then have the nerve ask you for the pictures of how it is suppose to look. Now they claim to have done the plane absolutely correct and researched it, but yet now they want pictures? It to me seems like they didn't research it enough or lied on their statement and now they want us to do the work to get them the pictures. Then on top of that, they don't change it.

When that happens, it makes me wonder what are the beta testers for? Why even have the process, if they aren't going to do anything either way? It makes me think that if they wouldn't let their egos get upset from an error (we are all human) and take the time to listen and fix issue, wouldn't everyone be happier? I understand you can't get a 100% accurate model from a person, but if the model is completely wrong then what's the point of doing it? It just floods our community with incorrect planes and damages the reputation of us trying to do a simulation of real flight.

Now the reason I posted this is because we started this rant on support, granted developers try their best to create a real life counter part of a plane and it can get complex. So people's computers are different and not all of them run them properly so you will get those errors, and yes there will be issues on communication between both parties. But this rant I have just stated is simply the pure negligence of a company NOT doing it right from the beginning and with the attitude that everyone is out to be negative to them, when it's not the case, and then to have the nerve to make you do the research for them. I think that also goes to reputation of a company and leaves a dead forum.

When I get a plane in flight sim, it's to see how the real plane would be if I was to operate it. So when I am shelling out $40-$50 dollars I would like to see something accurate and something on their end that was done to get it there.

Thank you for your time,
Rob

[warchild]

Wellll, not meaning to detract from your posts, but rather to reach for some personal understanding ( i normally never use any support. I simply will never by a product from a bad company again nor offer my services to them ).
One of the Reasons i and Paul can do what we do is because our machines are so much different and our experiences are so different with the same individual aircraft.. its maddening to be honest, but what i see when i develop a flight model is not necessarily what he experiences, so, a little bit of research is needed. in order to test something or find the cause for a problem, we may need to know what your machine is built like.. But yes, I agree, anything past machine and symptom should be the responsibility of the developer.
Pam