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strykerpsg
October 27th, 2011, 15:47
All,

Considering buying or leasing my own plane. I have been contemplating this for some time and am giving serious consideration to the Cessna line. I want to stay under $150,000.00 and am seeking advice or comments on personally owned aircraft, the good, bad and ugly. I know just enough to be dangerous, which amounts to not enough. Anyway, soliciting best practices and lessons learned by my fellow virtual and real world flyers.

Matt

Dangerousdave26
November 2nd, 2011, 10:58
Matt

I moved this thread to the Newshawks I think it is a better place to ask this question.

Myself I will be anxious to see answers.

Wittpilot
November 2nd, 2011, 15:50
Hi Matt...

Maybe you could provide everyone with just a bit more basic info to help out... i.e...

Do you have taildragger experience?/ want a taildragger?
Passenger load?
Glass cockpit or not?
Range?


Just a few ideas to maybe narrow down the search... I do not own an aircraft myself, but am constantly encouraging my father, who has his LSA license, to invest in small taildragger...

-witt

airtj
November 2nd, 2011, 16:17
My dad is a pilot and mechanic and owned a Cessna 182. The 182 is a good family plane. What's great about the Cessna is that you have a great view below the wing. It all depends on what you want to do with the plane, back country airports, valley or mountain flying. Keep in mind that aircraft performance is different at sea level and performance takes a hit at higher altitudes. We kept the cost down by having one partner in the airplane and performing all the maintenance ourselves. The biggest cost of owning an aircraft is the cost of maintenance,fuel, and insurance. Don't know too much about leasing an aircraft. Does the leasing company provide the maintenance on the aircraft? When buying an aircraft have a A&P or IA mechanic check the aircraft out, take the plane for a test flight, review the log books. If you have any other questions about Cessna aircraft I can have my dad email you.

TeaSea
November 2nd, 2011, 16:19
Strykerpsg,

I own a Piper Archer II PA-28-181. Going in you have to understand a few things:

- It's not cost effective to own your own airplane if all you are looking at is transportation. Let me amend that....it's not cost effective, PERIOD!
- Don't bother if you aren't intending to fly significantly less than 100 hours a year.
- You must have some sort of hanger or sun shade hanger. It's not an option....don't let anyone tell you it is.
- Know what your typical mission requirement is going to be (cross country? VFR or IFR? How many seats? etc....).
- Know what you want to spend. Then add the costs of the annuals, the fuel, the oil and filters, the in-between annual maintenance, and anything you want to set aside to rebuild the engine. Don't forget the insurance. From your price quote above, you should have no problem getting a very good aircraft as long as you keep those other things in mind (my Archer was far less than that, and it's a wonderful airplane).
-Get a low time engine.
- It's worth the extra money for an auto-pilot.
-Tricycle gear is cheaper to insure....as is fixed. REALLY CHEAPER.
- Scour the log books.
- Older damage history is usually not a problem. Especially if the airframe has lots of hours on it afterward....however, keep a clear eye on new damage history. May or may not be a problem, but will affect resale.

Lastly, get a pre-buy inspection. It's like a house, there will always be problems with it....what you want to do is screen out the absolutes, and adjust the price for the more minor stuff.

In your search, keep your options open.....I was looking for a -182, which I quickly figured out I could not afford, when the Archer dropped in my lap. I may upgrade later, but now I'm really enjoying what I have.

I love my airplane, and I love owning it. It's always ready when I want it. I take it on family and work trips. I'm even using it to help support my wife's business and am going to be deducting some of that as an expense this coming tax year.

I love doing the maintenance too. I know exactly what the maintenance status is at all times. I know how much fuel is in it and what the oil level is. I do much of the maintenance myself, including a good chunk of the annual (all you need is supervision by an A&P, you don't have TO BE an A&P). The cockpit is configured for my preferences and I don't have to re-do things all the time. It's so much nicer than renting....

I'm sure others will have comments as well, but this is a down and dirty....

Railrunner130
November 2nd, 2011, 18:06
I thought about this about fifteen years ago. TeaSea's advice is spot on from what I remember about researching it.

You do need to also consider fuel burn versus what type of flying you will be doing. If you are looking for something for short hops, perhaps a 152 is more your style. If you are doing some long range cruise, you can afford an airplane with higher fuel burn, because you'll make up the difference (hopefully) in cruise speed.

If you can't afford/will not use the airplane for 100 hours per year, than perhaps you would consider leasing it to a flight school. This has it's tax and financial advantages, but it also has it's pitfalls, such as people don't treat a rental like they would if they owned it.

I was interested in the prospects of purchasing an airplane that had been derelect for years. If you can get the right price and don't go hog wild, you can restore it the way you want it for less than the price of a new airplane.

FYI- I was also interested in a used Long-EZ. It has a good cruise speed on a 108 hp. engine.

ThinkingManNeil
November 3rd, 2011, 04:38
I'm not an owner and am no longer an active pilot but if a Cessna is what you want you might want to step out of the usual 172/182 groove and consider the C-177 Cardinal, one of the best looking Cessna's ever flown IMO. You can get a nicely turned out, late model 177 (model years 1975 - 78 are said to be the best) for well under $100K. Early Cardinals are said to be underpowered but the later B's and RG's were good performers though personally I'd choose a fixed gear 177B for sake of simplicity and the fact that retracts add only a few knots more (there are also some good speed mods available for fixed gear Cardinals (http://www.aircraftspeedmods.ca/default.htm)).

If you're not adverse to older classics you might want to consider aircraft like the Piper PA-20 Pacer, Stinson 108 series, or the Aeronca 15AC Sedan (I'm assuming all along here you want a four seater; not necessarily for the extra passenger space but because you can quickly overload a 2-seater Cessna 152 with bags if you plan any cross country travelling).

If it's only a two seater you're after keep the Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk in mind. True, it's a flight school trainer so a lot of them have been "rode hard and put away wet" but the same can be said for a lot of 150's and 152's, plus the Tomahawk is roomier, a bit faster than the Cessna on the same power and gives better visibility in the pattern. Of course, you could go with a taildragger conversion of a Cessna 150/52 for a higher fun factor.

One last type deserves mention and that would be the Grumman American/American General/Tiger AA-5B Tiger. I've not flown one but a little research shows them to be a fast, sporty, and agile four-seater that can be nicley kitted out with avionics packages, speed mods (eg. Lopresti (http://www.speedmods.com/)), and nice interiors with the bonus of a canopy that can be opened, at least partially, in flight.

N.

Dangerousdave26
November 3rd, 2011, 07:49
- Don't bother if you aren't intending to fly significantly less than 100 hours a year.


TeaSea

I had a question about that comment and Railrunner complicated it.

What does it mean?

I have limited real world aviation knowledge.


I thought about this about fifteen years ago. TeaSea's advice is spot on from what I remember about researching it.

If you can't afford/will not use the airplane for 100 hours per year, than perhaps you would consider leasing it to a flight school. This has it's tax and financial advantages, but it also has it's pitfalls, such as people don't treat a rental like they would if they owned it.

]

TeaSea
November 3rd, 2011, 15:49
Well, what I meant is if you're going to be flying a lot less than 100 hrs a year....don't bother. A rental or a flying club is a far better option. I did not phrase that correctly, but Railrunner corrected me.

That is a good general rule of thumb, and it's out there for a couple of reasons.

One is that an airplane needs to be flown regularly to keep it in good stead. Sitting idle is bad. Flying it every once in a while can be worse.

The other thing is the trouble. Unless this is an experimental that you are certified to maintain you will have to take it once a year for an annual. If it's an IFR platform, you must have that re-certified every two years. ELT must be checked annually, and battery replaced after 1 hour use or 50 % of battery life. AD's must be monitored continually, and implemented when required. Your information must be kept current with the FAA. Your insurance must be kept up to date. It's a lot of bother to keep track of all of this if you're not going to fly it much.

And then there's the cost....don't even go there.

100 hours is a good round figure to plan on. I've flown mine a little over that, and a little less than that over the past few years, so I think I'm tracking.

Of course, if you absolutely have to have your own....there's nothing says you can't!

It's not against the law.....yet.

luckydog
November 3rd, 2011, 23:02
Doin' the math..........
100 hrs. a year = 8 hrs. per month = 2 hrs. per week, plus hanger, ins., maintenance.....

I'm gonna stick with dreaming.....

TeaSea
November 4th, 2011, 15:08
Oh yeah.....save yourself the headache.

I'm in a position now where I'm making no major career moves for at least a couple more years. I've no schooling I meed to execute for a bit. I'm in a stable situation, and I've got the money available without putting our retirement at risk. I'm flying every weekend and putting in a lot of cross country time, and I'm also sure I can at least come close to breaking even. Which is important because if any of those factors change, the airplane is the first thing to go.

I've not always been in this situation, and frankly wouldn't expect to maintain it forever. So, I enjoy it while it lasts.

strykerpsg
November 4th, 2011, 16:39
Hi Matt...

Maybe you could provide everyone with just a bit more basic info to help out... i.e...

Do you have taildragger experience?/ want a taildragger?
Passenger load?
Glass cockpit or not?
Range?


Just a few ideas to maybe narrow down the search... I do not own an aircraft myself, but am constantly encouraging my father, who has his LSA license, to invest in small taildragger...

-witt

Sorry for late replies, didn't realize it had been moved.

Basically have no experience, just a dream to fly and some spare change from deployments laying around. Figured I would use my GI Bill to get rated through IFR and thought about multi-engine too, as a resume padder when I retire. I am most interested in Cessna variants, as they appear easiest to maintain and are like Chevy's where you can get parts almost everywhere. Also, glass cockpit would be really nice, but that of course raises the price a bit, though I feel the payoff in the long run might be more worthwhile for ease of use. It should also be able to carry at least 4 average pax.

Matt

strykerpsg
November 4th, 2011, 16:48
Strykerpsg,

I own a Piper Archer II PA-28-181. Going in you have to understand a few things:

- It's not cost effective to own your own airplane if all you are looking at is transportation. Let me amend that....it's not cost effective, PERIOD!
- Don't bother if you aren't intending to fly significantly less than 100 hours a year.
- You must have some sort of hanger or sun shade hanger. It's not an option....don't let anyone tell you it is.
- Know what your typical mission requirement is going to be (cross country? VFR or IFR? How many seats? etc....).
- Know what you want to spend. Then add the costs of the annuals, the fuel, the oil and filters, the in-between annual maintenance, and anything you want to set aside to rebuild the engine. Don't forget the insurance. From your price quote above, you should have no problem getting a very good aircraft as long as you keep those other things in mind (my Archer was far less than that, and it's a wonderful airplane).
-Get a low time engine.
- It's worth the extra money for an auto-pilot.
-Tricycle gear is cheaper to insure....as is fixed. REALLY CHEAPER.
- Scour the log books.
- Older damage history is usually not a problem. Especially if the airframe has lots of hours on it afterward....however, keep a clear eye on new damage history. May or may not be a problem, but will affect resale.

Lastly, get a pre-buy inspection. It's like a house, there will always be problems with it....what you want to do is screen out the absolutes, and adjust the price for the more minor stuff.

In your search, keep your options open.....I was looking for a -182, which I quickly figured out I could not afford, when the Archer dropped in my lap. I may upgrade later, but now I'm really enjoying what I have.

I love my airplane, and I love owning it. It's always ready when I want it. I take it on family and work trips. I'm even using it to help support my wife's business and am going to be deducting some of that as an expense this coming tax year.

I love doing the maintenance too. I know exactly what the maintenance status is at all times. I know how much fuel is in it and what the oil level is. I do much of the maintenance myself, including a good chunk of the annual (all you need is supervision by an A&P, you don't have TO BE an A&P). The cockpit is configured for my preferences and I don't have to re-do things all the time. It's so much nicer than renting....

I'm sure others will have comments as well, but this is a down and dirty....

Great points Teasea. I have loved flying ever since I was an Air Force brat, though admittedly with little maturity after high school to get a degree, drove myself into the Army as an infantyrman instead of an aviator. Ironically, wish I had taken up the option to attend Warrant Officer flight training many years ago.

My son had epxressed an interest in flying and thought it might be a great family hobby/interest, barring no major overhead costs aside from maintenance. Perhaps I shoudl re-examine the options presented and all the great talking points. It would be fantastic if more lived closer, would take them out for coffee and discuss in greater detail. Perhaps I should take a day at our local airfield, get a more realistic viewpoint and I am certain, many of the tlaking points you and others have expressed.

Thanks all for the viewpoints. They have been extremely enlightening and hasn't shattered my dream or drive, but causing some reaction to contact I hadn't anticipated.

Matt

strykerpsg
November 4th, 2011, 16:52
I'm not an owner and am no longer an active pilot but if a Cessna is what you want you might want to step out of the usual 172/182 groove and consider the C-177 Cardinal, one of the best looking Cessna's ever flown IMO. You can get a nicely turned out, late model 177 (model years 1975 - 78 are said to be the best) for well under $100K. Early Cardinals are said to be underpowered but the later B's and RG's were good performers though personally I'd choose a fixed gear 177B for sake of simplicity and the fact that retracts add only a few knots more (there are also some good speed mods available for fixed gear Cardinals (http://www.aircraftspeedmods.ca/default.htm)).

If you're not adverse to older classics you might want to consider aircraft like the Piper PA-20 Pacer, Stinson 108 series, or the Aeronca 15AC Sedan (I'm assuming all along here you want a four seater; not necessarily for the extra passenger space but because you can quickly overload a 2-seater Cessna 152 with bags if you plan any cross country travelling).

If it's only a two seater you're after keep the Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk in mind. True, it's a flight school trainer so a lot of them have been "rode hard and put away wet" but the same can be said for a lot of 150's and 152's, plus the Tomahawk is roomier, a bit faster than the Cessna on the same power and gives better visibility in the pattern. Of course, you could go with a taildragger conversion of a Cessna 150/52 for a higher fun factor.

One last type deserves mention and that would be the Grumman American/American General/Tiger AA-5B Tiger. I've not flown one but a little research shows them to be a fast, sporty, and agile four-seater that can be nicley kitted out with avionics packages, speed mods (eg. Lopresti (http://www.speedmods.com/)), and nice interiors with the bonus of a canopy that can be opened, at least partially, in flight.

N.

I have thought about the Cardinal and actually the Centurion, as their ranges are generally longer, hold 4 pax and have both fixed and retractable gear options, although I certainly understand why insurance would be much cheaper on fixed gear aircraft.

Matt

TeaSea
November 4th, 2011, 19:19
The new GI Bill is an excellent way to fund your training. The older version would not pay for the basic license, although it would pay for any additional certifications. Please note that you have to train with an accredited school to leverage that option. A CFI at the local airport is generally not going to meet that criterion.

I elected not to use mine because of that, and because I have burned about half way through it and need to pick up another degree in a couple years and will use the rest of it then.

Good idea to go out and talk to pilots at your local airfield. One thing you'll discover is that everyone has an opinion and they aren't afraid to give it too you.

If your son or another family member is going to work towards a license, then certainly an aircraft purchase becomes much more attractive. Also, it's really very, very nice to train in the same airframe. Even like models will handle very differently from aircraft to aircraft, and it's just nice to have the same feel while you are learning. I purchased my aircraft while working my IFR cert, and it was much easier for me because I became used to the layout of the instrumentation and handling.

Flyboy208
November 4th, 2011, 20:49
As a r/w pilot I can say this ... Fractional ownership - applies to GA aircraft and Bizjets as well, and it's always a bonus if a Buddy is an owner ... Tiedown fees, FBO fuel costs and insurance rates are huge factors ... me, personally - I'd buy a Piper Cub, but then the expenses begin ... Many GA airports have a waiting list for hangars, and tiedowns are not the best enviro for airframes ... Mike ;)

strykerpsg
November 4th, 2011, 22:07
As a r/w pilot I can say this ... Fractional ownership - applies to GA aircraft and Bizjets as well, and it's always a bonus if a Buddy is an owner ... Tiedown fees, FBO fuel costs and insurance rates are huge factors ... me, personally - I'd buy a Piper Cub, but then the expenses begin ... Many GA airports have a waiting list for hangars, and tiedowns are not the best enviro for airframes ... Mike ;)

Thanks Mike. I too have been considering a buddy of mine that loves flying as well, if he's willing to split the costs too. Luckily, I live right next to Thun Field, so wait list isn't very long and there's not only a 2 year certified school, but a lower tier program as well.

BTW, looked into Piper Cub and absolutely love em, but am told tail draggers are higher in insurance costs, so for me, that's a real world issue not witnessed in FSX, for which I fly the Cub regularly. Also, haven't found any 4 seater Cubs.....

Matt

txnetcop
November 5th, 2011, 03:02
If I were buying today I would own a Cardinal but ownership is way too expensive in my book if you aren't dedicated to flying two or three times a week. Have you thought about a partnership? I had a very good partner in Livermore, CA for 7 years. He worked for Sandia National Laboratories and had a flexible schedule as did I. We worked out our flight and maintenance schedules almost perfectly. We found we had some of the same interests and did a lot of flights together, especially early morning over the bay and fishing trips. He died not too long ago I am sorry to say. Anyway partnerships can work and they sure cut down on costs. Just a thought...
Ted

TeaSea
November 5th, 2011, 05:09
I would definitely consider fractional ownership. You might also look into a leaseback to the local airport. Of course, you could also get with a partner and buy new. That sounds like an impossible task, but go look the numbers and I think you'll find it's not as far out as you may think. You will also get an airframe that comes with maintenance and a warranty which will pay you back immediately. If you can tack this to a business you can also claim the depreciation (need to check the laws first before assuming).

Register whatever aircraft you get to an LLC, unless you are comfortable with personally assuming the potential liability for any accident. This is a fairly common practice and is not difficult (if you can file your travel voucher in the U.S. Army, you can do this....far easier). There's some paperwork and an annual fee (tax deductable) and you're your own company.

Oh, on the seating, remember that seats, and butts in seats are two different things. I can carry 4 folks in the Archer, AFTER I ensure I'm under weight in fuel and with the understanding that It's not going to be comfortable after more than an hour flying (it's tight). It's a comfortable 3 pax airplane when you're talking adults, as are the -172 and Cardinal. Older -182's are definitely 4 place, but the newer ones are really not much more than 3 and some bags. Actual mileage may vary.

I also considered a Cardinal as a potential buy. It's got a roomier cabin than most and it has that really nice long door, which makes it easier for folks to get in and out of (it's patterned more on an automobile). The one thing my wife complains about on the Piper is the single door entry.

On the other hand, maintenance on the Piper Cherokee and the Cessna 172 and 182 is generally less....again, actual mileage may vary obviously.

Dangerousdave26
November 5th, 2011, 05:28
Great information

I would like to add one question and I know I could Google it but I much prefer to get the answer from some of our members here.

What is an FBO and how does it work?

I am sure it will have advantages and disadvantages like most things.

airtj
November 5th, 2011, 06:49
FBO= Fixed Base Operator. Usual a company that deals with aircraft maintenance and provide private charter to those that can afford it. They also provide services like fueling. Take a look at here for more understanding of an FBO.

http://www.millionairslc.com/

TeaSea
November 5th, 2011, 11:50
Airtj's got it...I would add that an FBO can be a chain, an individual, or it can be a single company. Normally leased out from airport's authority. The authority can be different also, usually though a local municipality (County, City, etc...). That's stateside. I would have to defer to our European and Asian members to better answer that question.

flaminghotsauce
November 6th, 2011, 05:33
Flying club. Cheapest way to be an aircraft owner. There's one near me with 18 owners, only 4 active pilots and they're not very active. I never see that 172 flying when I'm driving by. I'm there 5 mornings per week. So it would be available nearly all the time, any time I wanted. The shares are relatively hard to sell if you lose your medical, that's why there's so many owners, so few flyers. But I could buy a share for $2k, and pay around $50 or $60 monthly. Then I pay for some lower hourly cost and fuel. Way cheaper than renting, and the insurance, maintenance, hangar, annuals, etc. are all figured into the monthly cost. They bought a 172 for about $40k or so, it's a nice airplane. I've sat in it.

I could be an airplane owner for $2000. That is stunning to me. Must...not....talk...myself....into it....

If you can't find one, you could start one.

Motormouse
November 6th, 2011, 10:39
TeaSea has covered most of the points.. however.. rather than jumping in with your own plane; why not see if there is a shared/fractional
owned plane looking for a new part-owner; it could prove cheaper and you'll get an idea of the running costs involved; before you put your hard earned into
aviation.

Again, get a pre-buy inspection and get your friendly A&P (or EASA B1 if in europe) to review the maintenance history.. there's nothing worse than buying into a share just as the engine becomes due for overhaul.


ttfn

Pete

Francois
November 6th, 2011, 21:29
In most countries in Europe there's no FBO. We have flying clubs and flying schools, sometimes a dedicated rental company. Fuel is provided by the airports/airfields.

As for the Cardinal: they are really cool planes, BUT do have an issue with the gear. I flew one with a friend of mine (he owned a share in one) in the UK for many years. It was grounded more than it flew. The gear switches were always trouble, resulting in a nose-wheel collapse even one day (and subsequent propeller strike and engine damage :-( ).

ThinkingManNeil
November 7th, 2011, 03:13
As for the Cardinal: they are really cool planes, BUT do have an issue with the gear. I flew one with a friend of mine (he owned a share in one) in the UK for many years. It was grounded more than it flew. The gear switches were always trouble, resulting in a nose-wheel collapse even one day (and subsequent propeller strike and engine damage :-( ).
Retracts on single-engined Cessna's have always been problematic whether they be the Cardinal, 182RG, 337 Skymaster or 210 Centurion, though I think the Centurion had fewer incidents of gear hang ups than the others did. I do know there was an STC modification available some years ago for the Skymaster that eliminated the wonky gear doors for that airplane's system in order to simplify it but I'm not sure if it was adapted to the other RG Cessna's. The fact that the basic reliability problems were never really ironed out would be the chief reason why I'd opt for a fixed-gear Cardinal.

N.

Brett_Henderson
November 7th, 2011, 04:31
I think 100 hours a year, as a watermark, is a bit low. The rule of thumb I came up with, is 20 hours per month (and that's a LOT of recreational flying)..

I've crunched the ownership numbers, every way imaginable.. and ended up being part owner in a club airplane, soley for defering insurance, and flying at the owner's, hourly rate. Anyway.. here are some rough numbers for a $100,000 C182.. all numbers are monthly:

- Interest paid on $100,000 loan (or income not earned if you tie up $100,000).. = $500
- Insurance (Hull and liability) .. = $300
- Hangar and misc. ground expenses .. = $300
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Cost to just stand next to it and say, "look what I own" .. = $ 1100 /month (nearly six hour of rental, right off the bat)
************************************************** *************


Numbers for 20 hours of flying:

- Fuel @ $6/gal @ 14gph ... = $1680
- Engine wear @ 2000hr TBO / $25,000 engine ... $250
- Airframe/avionics, wear/depreciation ... $300
- Average annual-inspection cost (for a $100,000 C182 /12) .. $300
- Oil / tires / untimely equipment failure (ie. DG quits) ... $ $200
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total operational only, cost per month @ 20 hours ... $2730
************************************************** ************
Cost for first 20 hours of flying per month.. $3850 .. or .. $191/hour (aprox. a wet rental)


Of course 20 hours/per month, every month, is a LOT of flying.. commiting you to nearly $4,000/month, just to break even on a per hour basis.

I you fly a reasonable (but still tough) 10 hours a month.. the fixed cost per hour doubles.

boleropilot
March 22nd, 2012, 02:22
hey guys

i'm a newbie here, flightsim nut and ultralight aircraft owner/pilot - it's my acft (0455) that anthony used for his Drifter dev (see website Ant's Airplanes)

i'm surprised nobody mentioned LSAs so far - in Oz you are restricted to 2 seats and 600kg AUW, but there are some brilliant little aircraft out there

as for the Drifter - well, i used to fly paragliders (and did a bit of skydiving) so the lack of doors isn't a problem for me !!!

cheers for now

BP