Good grief! ANOTHER air show crash!

[Cactuskid]

Just over the wire... A T-28 crashed at the Thunder Over The Blue Ridge airshow in Martinsburg, WVA. This has not been a very good weekend for aviation.

http://www.washingtonbanglaradio.com/content/93315911-t-28-crash-martinsburg-west-virginia-air-show

:frown::unitedstates:

[Bomber_12th]

This has not been a very good weekend for aviation.

Unfortunately that comment has had to be repeated far too many times this year.

[lazarus]

Geez! Did NAA get their airworthines certificate pulled? Exemption from law of gravity lifted? Its raining NAA aeroplanes all over the place... Sadly; and I note this from empirical observation derived from 30 years in the warbird and specialty aviation business, so many of these accidents arise from inexperienced pilots with too much money flying too much aeroplane for their experience level and yearly hour count... but if I had the clams, I'd have a Seafury in the garage too. Better 5 minutes a lion than a lifetime as a worm. The collorary being- Who ever heard of a worm skin rug? Its never a risk free endevour, though your odds of getting greased by an automobile is still greater. I think now, I shall put on Adagio for Strings and ask Murphy to ease up on the Aviators.


Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
Through the great spaces in the sky,
Be with them always in the air,
In dark'ning storms or sunlight fair.
O, Hear us when we lift our prayer,
For those in peril in the air.

[Bomber_12th]

Sadly; and I note this from empirical observation derived from 30 years in the warbird and specialty aviation business, so many of these accidents arise from inexperienced pilots with too much money flying too much aeroplane for their experience level and yearly hour count

Sadly I'm affraid you're very mistaken, and it would be a tremendous shame if you or anyone else were to continue to get others to believe it too.

That certainly does sound like the trend that existed around 3, 4, or 5 decades ago, but that is not the basis of what has been contributing to so many of the incidents this year, and in recent years. Please don't begin to tell me that it was too much money, too much ego, and too much lack of experience that contributed to the death of Jimmy Leeward, and those in the crowd at Reno. And this incident today, with the T-28 Trojan Horsemen, there is next to nothing to go on yet as to why it even happened. They train and perform all year round, and I guarantee you that there is no money nor ego that is driving them to do what they enjoy providing for the aviation community. It certainly takes money, and a lot of it, to own and operate these aircraft, let alone acquire the years of training that all of them do, and I don't accept the connection you make with having too much money, being a safety concern. Please mention an incident this year that you believe was contributed to by having too much money, too much lack of experience, or too much of an ego on the part of the pilot, and I'll be glad to discuss it.

The unfortunate truth of the matter, is that as in the case of the Reno incident yesterday, most all of these airshow incidents are purely caused by circumstances that you simply could never expect to happen nor have the time or presence of being to be able to correct, no matter who you are and how much experience you've built up.

Also, what you don't ever hear talked about too much, are the precautions that so many people within the warbird industry have taken to continue to ensure there has been as much safety in place as there has, with more warbirds flying today than ever before. For instance, the P-51 Horsemen team, went from a 3 ship to a 2 ship early in the year, due to the fact that one could not committ enough time to the shows and practices - this was decided on their own, both with their safety and the safety of the airshow audience in mind. The Liberty Belle emergency resulted in no injuries, and B-17 owners, the country over, performed inspections on their aircraft before flying them again, under no pressure to do so than their own. The same goes to the US Navy Blue Angels, who stood down after a safety issue was noticed and could then be rectified before continuing on.

[modelr]

Well said, John.

[fsafranek]

Geez! Did NAA get their airworthines certificate pulled? Exemption from law of gravity lifted? Its raining NAA aeroplanes all over the place...
Really?

North American Aviation made some of the finest aircraft that ever punched a hole in the sky. And when Rockwell International bought them they carried on that tradition and took the show beyond the Earth's atmosphere. Because they built the best aircraft there are more examples still flying. Sorry for the defensive tone, but I worked there so I have a spot in my heart for that company. :salute:
:ernae:

[Wittpilot]

Geez! Did NAA get their airworthines certificate pulled? Exemption from law of gravity lifted? Its raining NAA aeroplanes all over the place... Sadly; and I note this from empirical observation derived from 30 years in the warbird and specialty aviation business, so many of these accidents arise from inexperienced pilots with too much money flying too much aeroplane for their experience level and yearly hour count... .






From Airshowbuzz regarding the pilot in W.V.

The plane involved in the crash is registered to John Mangan of Concord, N.C., and was built in 1958. According to the demo team's website, Jack "Flash" Mangan, an alternate wing team member, is a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. He spent 13 years in active duty, flying more than 2,500 hours in F-15 and F-4 aircraft. While in the service, he earned several awards, including three Meritorious Service Medals and the Tactical Air Command's Instructor Pilot of the Year award. Mangan now has more than 4,000 flight hours and holds Airline Transport Pilot and sailplane ratings.

While I think I can agree with you to a fine point about pilots taking on "too much aeroplane", the fact remains as John pointed out, sometimes things go wrong.

[lazarus]

Frank- I love NAA airplanes. Lots of happy hours in Harvards,T-28's. Are we not allowed a sense of humour? It my seem inapropriate to some, but black humour is a very central element- perhaps a survival skill- in aviation culture. We laugh,because we dasn't cry. Murphy rules the universe with an iron fist, and all we can do is laugh at him. Bomber12th- peace, man. I'm not tromping on toes deliberately. An empirical observation is not opinion,and I shant debate further. One of the hats I wear for my employer is standards, safety and training, including-infrequently thank Dog!- accident investigation and liasion to the regulatory and flight safety bodies. A fascinating insight into how this stuff happens- and I would recommend any one with an interest take the course if you see it offered-worth the money- is 'Human factors'. A history of errors if you will, that shows the chain of events leading to the smoking hole. You'll never look at aviation safety; or your employer, the same way. Uh.. this year- or was it last- AK ANG C-17. flown out of design envelope rehearsing airshow routine. Standards and training under reveiw. It happens, flying time is expensive, and when times are tough, training goes first. Ask any pilot if he feels he is getting enough flying time. It is a constant tooth and nail fight with the brass upstairs to keep standards, maintenance and training to an acceptable standard. We are our own worst enemy in this, as we are all under the whip to do more with less. Its a less than satisfactory system for an imperfect world.
Any human endeavour worth doing is not without risk. Should warbirds be consigned to museums. Hell no! Fly 'em and bend 'em, airplanes belong in the sky. We bend every sinew to make the machine and pilots ready in every respect posible, because Murphy is watching, and he never fails to notice a mistake. Me; I never wanted to be the hottest pilot alive- I just want to be the oldest. And now, in future,I shall confine my discussion time to FS. This way lies less trouble.

[Creepy847]

In enjoyed this post.... From all sides... Carried out with respect, consideration and some humor... This is what I personally like to see... Great stuff... great ending lazarus...

Creeps..

[Wittpilot]

Laz,

You must take a second to understand why Bomber would be a little edgy on your post regarding NAA, whether it was made 'tongue-in-cheek' or not. You may or may not know by your join date that Bomber has spent a great deal of his life with NAA birds. Criticism of the company as a whole and the aircraft they have created would be taken very personally by individuals like Bomber who have engaged their own blood, sweat, & tears restoring/flying these birds.....

Good conversation though indeed.... Always good to see a thread where opinions/thoughts can be spread without attacks or slaps in the face.

-witt

[crashaz]

Good discussion guys.... spot on wittpilot.:salute: