Market-garden

[dmaloof]

Anniversary of the operation. Gotta watch a bridge too far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKDPX8PEiVk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiiUJ4sDuX0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbV2v2eBhYE&feature=related

[AndyG43]

Not just me then? Well done that man!!

[Tako_Kichi]

My late father was a RM Commando during WWII and should have been at Arnhem for the battle but his unit was one of those held up for three days in the massive traffic jam trying to get up the narrow corridor. By the time he got to the bridge the fighting was over.

[Jagdflieger]

My platoon sergeant in VN made the jump with the 101st Airborne at Arnhem.

[Allen]

Looks Like I will have to find it on TV and play it on BF1942.

[Ferry_vO]

My platoon sergeant in VN made the jump with the 101st Airborne at Arnhem.

Maybe he used 'Arnhem' as a name for the entire operation, but the 101st dropped around Eindhoven, over 40 miles south of Arnhem. The 82nd landed south of Nijmegen (South of Arnhem), and the British and Polish about 10 miles west of Arnhem. The 101st never made it to Arnhem though they spent a few months (Before moving to Belgium for the 'battle of the bulge') just south of Arnhem and Oosterbeek on the other side of the Rhine.

I missed the commemoration events for the first time in a few years this years due to an airshow up north; maybe I'll watch 'A bridge too far' again soon. It's a good movie though not entirely accurate.

[AndyG43]

It's a good movie though not entirely accurate.

Yes, takes a few liberties (not the least being the casting of a Brit & a Swede in the leading Dutch roles) - superb book as well, read all of the Cornelius Ryan books a few years back.

I remember an interview with Dirk Bogarde when this film was released; there were times he found it difficult to film, as he had actually taken part in the battle, as an intelligence officer - he reputedly had a distinctly frosty relationship with the German actors involved in the production.

[Panther_99FS]

My platoon sergeant in VN made the jump with the 101st Airborne at Arnhem.

:medals:

[Ferry_vO]

(not the least being the casting of a Brit & a Swede in the leading Dutch roles)

I don't remember that? The actress playing Kate ter Horst is Norwegian, but all other Dutch roles are played by Dutch actors as far as I know. Good to see a movie where all actors speak the right language btw!

The house of Kate ter Horst can still be found in Oosterbeek today, though you can't visit it. Almost everywhere you look from where I live up to the bridge in Arnhem (Now called the 'John Frost Bridge') you can still find things that remind you of the operation.

[AndyG43]

I don't remember that? The actress playing Kate ter Horst is Norwegian, but all other Dutch roles are played by Dutch actors as far as I know. Good to see a movie where all actors speak the right language btw!

The house of Kate ter Horst can still be found in Oosterbeek today, though you can't visit it. Almost everywhere you look from where I live up to the bridge in Arnhem (Now called the 'John Frost Bridge') you can still find things that remind you of the operation.

Sorry, I meant Norwegian; Liv Ullmann did most of her work, in Sweden, with Bergman so I got myself confused - originally the part was going to be played by Audrey Hepburn, but she asked for too much money!! Doctor Spaander was played by Laurence Olivier, during his funny accent period (he used prety much the same accent in Marathon Man & Wild Geese II. Yes, apart from those two they were Dutch actors; and yes, nice to see people speaking the correct language.

[Ferry_vO]

Doctor Spaander was played by Laurence Olivier

Oops, missed that one.

The biggest 'error' in the movie is of course the bridge itself, which is not the bridge at Arnhem but the bridge over the Yssel at Deventer! By the time they recorded this movie there were already too many modern buildings in Arnhem to recreate 1944.

The biggest annoyance to me is the role of James Caan, which was written speifically for this movie and has no historic background IIRC!

[AndyG43]

The biggest annoyance to me is the role of James Caan, which was written speifically for this movie and has no historic background IIRC!

I think it merged several incidents, Caan worked for me. MY biggest annoyances are a choice between Ryan O'Neal delivering an incredibly wooden performance (no great surprise this his career died a death) and Gene Hackman, beating Olivier hands down in the dodgy accent stakes!! :icon_lol:

[Jagdflieger]

Ferry,

Of course, you're right. I used the term Arnhem as a cover for the whole Market Garden operation, perhaps the largest airborne operation in history and a major part of the Arnhem anniversary. As a former trooper in the 101st, I'm pretty well up on their history and I should have made the distinction in drop zones clear. No slight to the fine citizens of Arnhem intended.

101st motto:

"Rendezvous with Destiny"

[Eoraptor1]

I enjoyed the movie, but I definitely recommend reading the original Cornelius Ryan book. You simply cannot cram as much information into a feature film as you can in a book, especially since the movie distributors really want those two evening showings at the multiplex. This discourages filmmakers from producing too many features much over two hours in length. So, inevitably, historical characters and events end up getting composited. If you've seen the movie and then read the book, you'll see very quickly who's based on who. I wouldn't know enough to be able to tell the difference between a Dutch and a German accent, but I do like hearing the original languages in a movie. I've picked up a good deal of German just from watching Das Boot over and over, but his represents another problem with movie "authenticity" as American audiences are notoriously hostile to reading subtitles. Those are considered things for college towns or arthouse cinemas. Anyway, cutting the rant short...read Cornelius Ryan's book!!!

JAMES

[magoo]

and Gene Hackman, beating Olivier hands down in the dodgy accent stakes!!
....I used to think that maybe he was quoting a carefully researched "pre-Soviet" Polskie accent.....but Lud....I think it's just a little economic Hollywood artsiness...sillyness.

[Ferry_vO]

Of course, you're right. I used the term Arnhem as a cover for the whole Market Garden operation, perhaps the largest airborne operation in history and a major part of the Arnhem anniversary. As a former trooper in the 101st, I'm pretty well up on their history and I should have made the distinction in drop zones clear. No slight to the fine citizens of Arnhem intended.


No problem Dave! Just wanted to make clear that the operation involded a large part of the Netherlands not just Arnhem. Sadly the place where it went wrong will always be associated with Market Garden. But it wasn't just the British at Arnhem, but also the Americans who did their best to liberate the south of the Netherlands, and in fact mostly succeeded in reaching their goals!

After reading several books of people involved with the 101st and Market Garden I think perhaps the operation could have had a different outcome if the US forces had dropped near Arnhem... BTW I can recommend the book written by Bill Guarnere and Babe Heffron; Great read!

[Jagdflieger]

After I retire I want to attend the event. Perhaps in a couple of years I can get over for it as well as some good Dutch beer, chocolate and coffee.

[Ferry_vO]

If you do come over here, let me know and I'll give you a guided tour!

:)

[AndyG43]

... BTW I can recommend the book written by Bill Guarnere and Babe Heffron; Great read!

I'll have to check that out, two very exceptional gentlemen.

Yes, Market-Garden is almost the biggest "What If......" of the war; if the 101st had seized Nijmegen Bridge on Day 1; if 1st Airborne had been briefed about the ferry at Driel .........

If it had succeeded the whole future of Europe could have been radically different. Certainly the short term future for the Dutch would have been better, no Hongerwinter; but could it have given an opportunity for an early peace, or the Western Allies could have negotiated a separate surrender - the possibilities are mind boggling!