Why was the Nemeth / Piracy thread locked ?

[Paul K]

Interesting to read everyone's thoughts on one of the most contentious issues facing this hobby and its developers. A little tetchy at times, but misunderstandings were quickly resolved, and it remained very civilized. Then arbitrarily closed down for no worthwhile reason.

Many of us might have wanted to contribute something more to it, so can we have it reopened or given a reason for it being locked ? I really don't understand this place at times.

[Roger]

Paul,
Not only was it likely to get "tetchy" and it was getting tetchier, it was also way off topic and going nowhere useful. The thread was on a "watch" list and with SOH being dubbed a "pirates'" site by someone after the "Duck incident" we are not prepared to risk more of the same after reading that some members almost seemed to condone piracy as it can't be stopped.
Our attitude to piracy is in the stickied area of both this forum and Newshawks.

If you want to start a thread dealing with similar issues (why???) ok, but if the staff feel it has transgressed it will be closed.

[Ian Warren]

I recall the day Nemeth Bros released may absolute fave in Helicopters - The CH53 , we don't see these in the NZ , the purchase was during the SP1/SP2 microsoft packs and caused all sorts off problems , i had a few ridiculous comments due to my frustration but final really got to enjoy that and never been disappointed with that chopper , I own 5
CH53 - Sea Stallion
MD500 - Little Bird
UH-1H - co-operation with Milviz
Sykcrane - as above
A109 which is a treat

End off the day , Our good friend s the Nemeth Bros and many others whether is Helicopters , Aircraft and Scenery require help , I do it free for a few NZ designers
simply for the getting it right and making it real .

Just a pity stealing is all to common - sudo names and no honest connection .

[skyhawka4m]

Just so everyone is aware I DID NOT start that thread with any ill will or intentions. I posted it as a "new" worthy FS issue. If some one here thinks I posted it in support of piracy, I highly suggest you read all my comments in the thread. Frankly, just because of that issue and someone else's comments I've decided to purchase 2 more FS products. When you put the (why???) like that in your comment it seems you question my motives or anyones who would want to put out a news issue like this.

[wombat666]

Just so everyone is aware I DID NOT start that thread with any ill will or intentions. I posted it as a "new" worthy FS issue. If some one here thinks I posted it in support of piracy, I highly suggest you read all my comments in the thread. Frankly, just because of that issue and someone else's comments I've decided to purchase 2 more FS products. When you put the (why???) like that in your comment it seems you question my motives or anyones who would want to put out a news issue like this.

We understand it was most certainly 'Newsworthy'.
We also agree with your views on 'Theft' aka 'Piracy'.
We believe your motives were above board, but the thread had become contentious and ceased to remain relevant to the original content.
:kilroy:

[michael davies]

I suspect my comments were seen as condoning piracy or theft, after all I didn't pointedly say I loathed them or disagreed to what they were doing, merely pointed out they existed and anyone who dares to ignore that fact is doing themselves and injustice and quite frankly the community a disservice, ignorance and denial are no excuse to skirt this issue. I don't like them, but its not I point I feel after 13 years in payware (and having probably been robbed more than most here in that time) I have to express every time one of these posts pops up. I suppose I was also way off topic in most of what I wrote, but have, and always will take the view that you have to first understand the problem before you can begin to fix it, and that often means exploring avenues that meander to a dead end.

One thing is clear though, what ever we are doing (collectively) or not doing, is most certainly not working, maybe an off topic suggestion or idea might be whats needed?, who knows, does anyone care?.

Its also saddening to hear SoH has a gun held to its head by an aggrieved payware developer on some, quite clearly, mis founded evidence.

In future I'll keep well away from such threads, I'd rather suffer in silence than worry that something said in good faith might upset someone.

Best

Michael

[Mathias]

Michael Davis is a piracy supporter?
That's like accusing Mother Theresa of blasphemy. :icon_lol:

[michael davies]

That's like accusing Mother Theresa of blasphemy. :icon_lol:

I did hear a rumor once...... LOL.

[Roger]

The "why???" was simply back to Paul as the piracy issue has been discussed at length many times and there is no conclusion to be drawn...except that it's a parasite on the backs of developers and can never be stopped entirely.
I've known Michael way back before his Mother Teresa days when he was simply Malcolm Muggeridge :costum: ...and understand his stance completely.

We can't stop piracy but as a forums site we have to tread very gingerly in these areas and I accept the closing of the thread may have seemed heavy handed, but from a staff point of view it could easily have been closed earlier.

[michael davies]

We can't stop piracy but as a forums site we have to tread very gingerly in these areas

This may be true, but its still wrong :). This site is no more a harbor for these individuals than any other site, payware forums included, and for anyone to claim otherwise simply does not have a comprehensive grasp on reality :banghead:.

Its a travesty where accusers can basically dictate to innocents how they must behave and topics of discussion, or via innuendo, dictate like wise.

Does SoH dictate or suggest or claim to tell others what they are or are not, what they can discuss or not?, no, didn't think so. Its about time these people kept their piggy little fingers out of pies that do not belong to them IMHO.

Its not my site and I'm a guest, and as such will and always have try/tried to abide by said rules, but globally its about time honest decent folk told these people, who clearly do not have enough to do in their day to fill their time, where to take it.

Once again I digress off topic <sigh>.

Kindest

Michael

[warchild]

I would like to add my two cents.. I'm probably the easiest going, most laid back moderator here, but, the other thread got to a point where people were outright insulting other people.. When i see stuff like that, and other puerile behavior's, I have to take a real hard look at the insulter, and most of the time, i'll close the thread. Opinions are great, but just like real life theres a place for general opinion, and a place for private opinion.. When private carries over into public its like someone taking a dump in downtown anywhere in the world. Its just not acceptable. We let one insult go by in that thread. This morning, I woke up to a PM about another.. Litterally woke up to it.. I had just climbed out of bed.. I personally dont care whats said, as long as publicly the fangs stay in the mouth and not on my forum.. Please take some things private.. We dont allow smearing. All of you people are special to me. I'd like to keep you that way.. But consistent and vicious behavior will get no one anything more than id give a rabid dog.. And Michael, I hope you dont think that was aimed at you. It wasnt.. Its a statement for everyone.. In effect, I agree with you, but until people can discuss the issues in an intelligent adult manner, I just dont see that discussion happening..
Pam

[Roger]

This may be true, but its still wrong :). This site is no more a harbor for these individuals than any other site, payware forums included, and for anyone to claim otherwise simply does not have a comprehensive grasp on reality :banghead:.

Its a travesty where accusers can basically dictate to innocents how they must behave and topics of discussion, or via innuendo, dictate like wise.

Does SoH dictate or suggest or claim to tell others what they are or are not, what they can discuss or not?, no, didn't think so. Its about time these people kept their piggy little fingers out of pies that do not belong to them IMHO.

Its not my site and I'm a guest, and as such will and always have try/tried to abide by said rules, but globally its about time honest decent folk told these people, who clearly do not have enough to do in their day to fill their time, where to take it.

Once again I digress off topic <SIGH>.

Kindest

Michael

Well Michael,
We were the first site to rehost the Fs9 Duck, after careful consideration, but we aren't stupid and we do have confidence in our staff to make solid decisions about such matters.
However there is much more to it than the Duck situation, which as you will appreciate is discussed in camera and we believe that we tread a considered line for the benefit of the site and its members.

Roger.

[michael davies]

intelligent adult manner

Pam,

Just to snippet quote, and in no way an attempt to undermine your reasoned post.

I concur and as noted in the original thread, there must be the 'will' to change and until that arrives and the above quote becomes the norm then the issue and many others will not be resolved.

Regarding waking up to a hate mail, don't, don't look at the forums or email for the first 60-90mins of the day, that way at least some of the day was pleasant, rather than being kicked into a foul mood from minute one LOL.

Best

Michael

[warchild]

:::LOL:: Nahhh, it wasnt hate mail.. Just a concerned member who asks some very good questions... But you make a good suggestion and one i should practice ::lol::..

[michael davies]

Well Michael,
We were the first site to rehost the Fs9 Duck, after careful consideration, but we aren't stupid and we do have confidence in our staff to make solid decisions about such matters.
However there is much more to it than the Duck situation, which as you will appreciate is discussed in camera and we believe that we tread a considered line for the benefit of the site and its members.

Roger.

Roger, I didn't mean to intimate you or anyone else was stupid :) and I do know full well all or almost all of the behind the scenes politics that goes on, I was lucky, all my hate mail was aimed at my products or assisted products, the solution was easy, fix the product, problem goes away :), here your deaing with opinions and ideals, much harder to fix.

I think SoH does very well, even if at times its hard to comprehend.

Kindest

Michael

[emfrat]

What bothered me was that so many people seemed to have the view that since the torrent trolls were going to steal it, they might as well steal it too - but that would be the developers' fault for not protecting their software.
That is just not acceptable.
MikeW

[mmann]

Look at what happened in Vancouver, B.C. after a hockey game. This the mentality of humanity that you have to deal with. I am so very glad that I only do (did) freeware!

Regards, Mike Mann

[lazarus]

Quote....What bothered me was that so many people seemed to have the view that since the torrent trolls were going to steal it, they might as well steal it too - but that would be the developers' fault for not protecting their software.
That is just not acceptable.
MikeW


I know that condoning theft was not my intent, or an one elses, nor is the "every one is doing it, why shouldn't I" argument valid. I was simply pointing out that relying on the mob to behave honorably is a recipie for disapointment, sadly. We have to go to extraordiary lengths here to secure any and everthing against propery crime. Not just stuff worth stealing, anything. a 25lb concrete garden mushroom! I had to tune up a pair of geniuses amusing themselves this morning at 01;30 trying to kick the stand pipe off the side of the house, after absconding with 20ft of cheap wally world garden hose! My 1988, scaby rusty Astrovan with a broken factory stock radio, nothing in except seats and dog hair, is broken into at least 4 times a year, has been stolen twice in the past 4 years, The break and enters became so regular that we had to dump 1800 clams on security gates and grates for the first floor, so they'll steal the door mat and light bulb out of the porch instead! Unfortunatley,
for better or worse, all you can do is try to make every thing as hard as possible to steal, bust heads when you catch them at it, and carry on with your life- though I really wouldn't mind being able to put in a mine field, or keep a couple of Cheetas in the yard, or a few Rattle snakes in the truck....:banghead:

[N2056]

And so now it would seem that the discussion is going right back to being a continuation of the thread that got locked...which tends to be why almost every time someone starts a "why did you lock that thread?" post it eventually suffers the same fate. I'd rather not lock threads, but I'm ready on this one...

[TeaSea]

I absolutely NEVER know what's going on!!



It's like there's a whole world going on around me that I keep missing.....:kilroy:

[lazarus]

Sorry.:toilet:

[N2056]

Hey, given the topic it's understandable...no worries

[Phantom88]

Ryan Mason of Nemeth Design was just on "10 min Taxi" explaining what happened

[Paul K]

And so now it would seem that the discussion is going right back to being a continuation of the thread that got locked...which tends to be why almost every time someone starts a "why did you lock that thread?" post it eventually suffers the same fate. I'd rather not lock threads, but I'm ready on this one...

Why not just let people have an ongoing discussion and let it expire through natural causes ? Every conversation veers off topic to some degree as new opinions are posted and reacted to. The subject of piracy ( an important one in this hobby ) is merely being talked about, not condoned or practised. There is no reason to lock this thread, is there ?

[michael davies]

And so now it would seem that the discussion is going right back to being a continuation of the thread that got locked...which tends to be why almost every time someone starts a "why did you lock that thread?" post it eventually suffers the same fate. I'd rather not lock threads, but I'm ready on this one...

The problem is, people want to have their say, everytime it is squashed it re appears in another guise, a bit like that arcade Gophers game :). Eventually it will die of its own accord if left to run its course. You can either let it run with out interaction (hardly desirable or mature), let it run with close observation and interaction (preferable) or simple ban all conversation on the matter (people will simply go elsewhere).

The forum exists for one simple reason, flight sim, of which 90% of topics are based on addons, very little is based on the core product, if those addons cease or decline (which they currently are) then there is less reason for a forum per se.

The issue has always been thorny and will continue to be as it becomes more prevalent, you can either ignore it and deal with the fall out later, or continually attempt to keep it in check. Acceptance of the issue is not condonancy, though I accept to some it may appear that way.

Finally, keep up the good work.

Kindest

Michael

[Naismith]

I absolutely NEVER know what's going on!!



It's like there's a whole world going on around me that I keep missing.....:kilroy:

I'm with you. :sleep:

[AndyG43]

I'm with you. :sleep:

This must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
- Arthur Dent

[emfrat]

N2056 - I agree, and I apologise.
Maybe we need a sort of poll thing, where you click a button to say "I have been attacked by this situation yet again" and it just counts up...
Enuff from me
MikeW

[N2056]

Thanks for the comments and understanding. One thing I won't do unless there's a very good reason to is lock a thread without some sort of warning given first, which was the intent of my first reply to this post. Sometimes it might not be the best wording...but it seems to work most of the time.

I try to participate when I can. During working hours I'm not really able to actually post much, and in the case of the thread that got locked it was all over and done by the time I got home from work!

[fsafranek]

Ryan Mason of Nemeth Design was just on "10 min Taxi" explaining what happened
As I get older I find more and more often when I open a new browser window to search for something that I get sidetracked by something I see and sometimes forget why I even opened up the new window. So when folks include a link that will take me directly to what they're talking about I really appreciate it. That said, here is the link to the subject mentioned in the quote above.
http://www.justin.tv/tenminutetaxi/b/288712939

Thanks for the heads up Phantom. it was an interesting episode.
:ernae:

[Phantom88]

Frank,Thank you for putting up the link,Cheers

[Francois]

You know what I like about Facebook ? It is not moderated, and I can write what I want, and ignore whom I want.
The original Nemeth thread was already closed when I found it... yeah, I'm always late... so I commented on Facebook instead. Works for me all the time :icon_lol:

The one good thing written in THIS thread is the advice to NOT look at forums and such first thing before having your morning coffee.... with this overcrowded world of today and the extremely low level of decency resulting, it is a recipe for ruining your day indeed. :salute:

[TeaSea]

Fancois.....

at least I'm not the only one who has no idea what's going on half the time....


Unlike you though, I absolutely HATE facebook. Probably because my brother posts every inane little thing that comes across his mind.

I'm really tired of seeing pictures he takes up his nose.....

Roger on the coffee....

[fsafranek]

Unlike you though, I absolutely HATE facebook. Probably because my brother posts every inane little thing that comes across his mind.
Introduce your brother to twitter. Seems more and more twits are using facebook to tweet. I don't care what you're having for breakfast.
:ernae:

[Francois]

The 'nice' thing about Facebook is that you can choose who to see and who NOT to see ;-)

[Paul K]

Something that has been mentioned on this, and other, forums is that anti-piracy software exists but is priced beyond the means of small developers.

Not being an 'industry insider' I am groping in the dark a little, but would it not be possible to create an association of flight sim developers under the aegis of one body ( Avsim, for example) and make a license for such software available at reduced cost for a fixed annual subscription ?

[Francois]

I don't think it will be worth the trouble, personally. Also, as much as we all love this hobby, consumers and developers alike, there is very little 'unity' in our ranks and I would be really intrigued to see who would be able to unite enough developers under any one 'organization'. Almost ALL of the groups have hidden agendas or other interests that are not always as obvious as one might think.

The larger outfits such as Aerosoft have their own solution. So smaller devs can join them (AE would love that I am sure). In the end, NO solution is really available with the exception of including a continuous on-line check into the software. Something that is VERY difficult to do in FSX add-ons and something most customers are fiercely against!

Personally, I am in the camp of those who believe that the majority of 'free downloaders' are not our real customers anyway and the ones that ARE will pay for their products by and large.

Texts such as Nemeth posted are just out of frustration, but really not very realistic. Anyone thinking he can make a living out of just designing add-ons for FS, missed a turn somewhere to begin with. Those - the vast majority - who do it for pleasure with a nice additional pocket money coming in, are not hurt by those pirates in any significant way.

And yes, I DO understand the frustration of seeing your hard work on a dozen piracy sites and forums, but getting all upset about it is only wrecking ones own life, and never theirs.

[Penzoil3]

When I heard about Nemeth's problems, I promptly went to their website, and bought the new A-109.
I figured that was the most constructive thing to do to help.
Sue

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

FS Secure Delivery was born this day , after discussions with a number of associates a system is now offered to the independent producers who wish to incorporate software protection in their releases.
The system is a complete Ecommerce solution , licence issuing , licence check , distribution and reports, available with a range of features to suit the needs and degree of security desired , licence verification with every use to the less intrusive installers, hacking will be back traceable to the original licence and that licence can be terminated, with auto licence verification any hacked versions can be terminated as well.

The FS Secure Delivery system was developed from proven systems by established pioneers in the field of Flight Sim Security, it’s been a couple of years now that not having these systems was the politically correct choice but it’s become an untenable situation , releases are going on the torrents within hous and Developers cannot recoup their basic investment, and as a result are not going to be able to continue, it’s become unaffordable .
There is a loose confederacy of independent developers , an international group with offices on MSN and Skype ( soon to be the same i suspect) with whom i have worked through the course of numerous projects, we get together with some regularity using VoIP and text, this new FS Secure Delivery Wrapper will be incorporated in upcoming releases , as i work with a number of companies they will be the first using it.

The option of joining the group using the system is open to developers who wish to do so, there are a few that are not in the `` MSN Dev’s Sandbox `` who are invited to contact me to get an overview of the particulars .

It’s time for the piracy plague to be terminated , while making sure legitimate customers are as free from grief as possible is paramount, it’s an unfortunate reality that there are far more illegitimate users, the net consequence is that the survival of the groups who produce these is at stake without a protection system being used to prevent piracy .

[Francois]

Is that the 'FSD' system you told me about last year, Chuck?

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

No Francois , it was something worked out this week but is based on using the software key system for licence issue.

[Bjoern]

The 'nice' thing about Facebook is that you can choose who to see and who NOT to see ;-)

Setting the wife, girlfriend, mother-in-law on "ignore" must be kind of fun... *Chuckle*




I don't think it will be worth the trouble, personally. Also, as much as we all love this hobby, consumers and developers alike, there is very little 'unity' in our ranks and I would be really intrigued to see who would be able to unite enough developers under any one 'organization'. Almost ALL of the groups have hidden agendas or other interests that are not always as obvious as one might think.

The larger outfits such as Aerosoft have their own solution. So smaller devs can join them (AE would love that I am sure). In the end, NO solution is really available with the exception of including a continuous on-line check into the software. Something that is VERY difficult to do in FSX add-ons and something most customers are fiercely against!

Personally, I am in the camp of those who believe that the majority of 'free downloaders' are not our real customers anyway and the ones that ARE will pay for their products by and large.

Texts such as Nemeth posted are just out of frustration, but really not very realistic. Anyone thinking he can make a living out of just designing add-ons for FS, missed a turn somewhere to begin with. Those - the vast majority - who do it for pleasure with a nice additional pocket money coming in, are not hurt by those pirates in any significant way.

And yes, I DO understand the frustration of seeing your hard work on a dozen piracy sites and forums, but getting all upset about it is only wrecking ones own life, and never theirs.

Quoted for absolute truth.

[Helldiver]

Back when I was a working stiff, about six years ago and I had more money than brains. I bought about everything that was advertised. Just as long as it hung a propeller. Then I quit working and went on Social Security. About that time my hard drive froze up, I also changed my e-mail address (it was stolen from me) plus I changed my Charge Card account.
I got me a new hard drive and tried to get my aircraft back. I had 12 of them from Alpha but because he didn’t recognize my name or my e-mail address we got into a real peeing contest and I didn’t get my aircraft back.
Then there was a Russian outfit that sold me Moscow Airport and had a password that was 400 characters long. They didn’t recognize me.
I then took on Fight One. They had 22 airplanes that I had purchased. It took them a year. But God bless them, they at least made good.
Caranado was quite different. They refused to even acknowledge I ever existed. Even though I had bought 12 airplanes from them. I fought with them for a month and finally gave up. There were others that I bought one or two from with the same negative results. So there’s countless 100 of dollars down the drain, without a thank you. Or any airplanes that I had paid for.
Now I’m living on Social Security and I’m looking at Spendware airplanes that are selling for $35. About what FSX originally cost me, come to think about it. Now I don’t care how nice it s, I can’t afford to throw away that kind of money with no guarantee that I can get it back when everything turns brown.
Now if my kid brother, in Alabama, sends me a nice airplane - than that makes me a pirate. But under my current circumstances, I just can’t afford to be ripped off any longer.

[Francois]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

The Senior Pilots are an outstanding part of the hobby , and make up the majority of folks who turn out to Sim related conferences as well, gentlemen one and all.

Myself and other Developers know that they as a group have fixed incomes , having left the workforce they need be careful with expenses and in cases when that income is spoken for we understand completely that they cannot purchase whatever hits the market , i have given away a great many free copies of products and most Dev's if asked would gladly provide free aircraft to those gentlemen who cannot afford them, they participate in the hobby in ways that are impossible to replace with their experiences and whit in the telling. <o:p></o:p>

[Francois]

Indeed, we too give away products for free or at a big discount to flightsimmers less fortunate than some. But it is not something we advertise, nor is there some 'structure' in that. Maybe a good idea to DO bring some structure into this practice, as I know many companies WILL honour them and their limitations.

[Milamber]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)


I'm 67 and a [several times over] paying customer. Bring it on Francois :applause:

M.

[Francois]

I'd need some 'proof' of course, and have no access to the Social Security system of the US..... or any other country for that matter. Help me think this over, folks :-)

[TeaSea]

The 'nice' thing about Facebook is that you can choose who to see and who NOT to see ;-)

Yes, but then I would have to work through the family response. Some fights just aren't worth having.

[Sundog]

Back when we (Plane Design) released our Spitfire for FS9, it was pirated before it was released. One of the planes we handed out for a pre-review was the culprit, but we were only really able to narrow it down to two or three people and not much we could do about it at the time. It was disheartening, but the aircraft still sold well. Ed was trying to make a living off of it, but development just takes too long to do that.

If the rumors we've heard about MS Flight are true, maybe they'll be able to take care of the piracy issues. Ed and I like the way RoF does it's releases, but of course, that is a much less open ended system than FSX. I do hope Flight is backwards compatible, as I've bought a lot of ORBX add-ons, not mention aircraft, that I hope are able to transfer into the sim.

It is a shame about Nemeth, as I have a couple of their products and they are very good. I wish them luck at whatever they choose to do in the future.

[krazycolin]

Nemeth is not shutting it's doors. They are merely on suspension while an anti-piracy method is found.

We are both working concurrently on finding something that works and is non-invasive for the end-user and that also leaves us with a profit margin that is livable.

[azflyboy]

If the rumors we've heard about MS Flight are true, maybe they'll be able to take care of the piracy issues. Ed and I like the way RoF does it's releases, but of course, that is a much less open ended system than FSX. I do hope Flight is backwards compatible, as I've bought a lot of ORBX add-ons, not mention aircraft, that I hope are able to transfer into the sim.


From what MS has said about Flight, it's going to be using a completely new engine, and likely won't be compatible with anything from FSX.

Personally, if that means they'll actually make a simulator that runs well on hardware available when it's released (that isn't "bleeding edge"), and gets rid of some of the glaring issues with the current engine (like the multi-engine and turboprop problems), I'm all for moving on.

[Francois]

I too do NOT think it will be compatible. They wouldn't have fired the entire old team if they had planned on that ;-)
But we won't have any conformation until some of the secrecy is lifted. The occasional screenshot is not helping us any.

[Paul K]

Krazycolin, I think that given the flightsim community's acute awareness of the damage piracy is doing to our hobby, we'd be prepared to accept some degree of invasive measures, if thats what it took to protect developers profits.

[Francois]

Most programs (games) I know these days use on-line 'checking', i.e. you cannot play them unless you are 'connected'. Especially the ones using the Steam engine, same for many others.

The FS community is one of the oldest and probably most old-fashioned in that regard. Fact remains that quite a large percentage of our known customer base has something 'against' being connected for license issues.

As a publisher or developer spending extra money on such licensing schemes means one has to be fully convinced that it will actually bring in a higher turnover, otherwise it will just cost more than publishing already does.

[Warrant]

Edit: deleted contents due to double post.
Admin's, i seem to have trouble with posting. Every initial posting comes up with a window that looks different then usual, and the cursor/enter button do not seem to work. The only way i can type text normally, as i used to do, is in the editting window after posting.

I run Firefox as browser in a Vista OS.

If i need to upload some examples or screenshots, please let me know.

Are there other people who encounter the same issues?

[Warrant]

Did not know this discussion was still going on, and i'm happy the issue of "steam engine" and other anti-piracy mechanisms have been brought up. I understand and agree mechanisms should be developed to prevent piracy, but the "you have to be online in order to play the game you purchased" method is not preferrable IMHO. Me, for example, am not always situated in environments blessed with internet connection. Yet, games on my own laptop might be my only chance of entertainment and relaxation in certain situations (yes, i'm in the military, and yes, i'm deployed on occasion). With the anti-piracy safety such as Steam, i was and am unable to play a lot of games on my computer once in situations like described above. Yet, i payed for them.......I can think of a lot of other people with similar reasons not to have an internet connection at certain times. I also encountered problems where i did have internet connection, but the connection was too weak or unstabile. I was kicked out of the game so much times it became unplayable.

So, though outdated, FSX on my laptop is the only thing playable when out of internet, of with just a weak connection.

Not a very good option for a $50+ game, is it!?

[michael davies]

I used to give away free commercial aircraft I developed, to people who had helped in some small way, until I was told to stop, beta tester could buy their own finished product I was told!, I didn't listen and still gave away free copies, now that developer owes me $4500 and I'm unlikely to see it (dont ever anyone tell me all pirates are consumers!), so I'm glad I gave all those free planes away, sometimes there is justice in this world, all be it small and brief, bloody expensive mind, but hey, its only money :).

[BASys]

dont ever anyone tell me all pirates are consumers!
+1 :censored:

[Aussiecop]

Well, didn't I miss the boat on this one, :). Thank you to everyone who has posted in support in both this and another thread. I didn't post here as I didn't want to be spewing my frustration entirely across the web. I guess it was picked up an posted by a concerned user.

The best part about this situation if there is indeed a silver lining, is the chorus of support from people you don't usually hear from. To all this people we thank you.

I can't possibly touch on all the subjects people have mentioned and I don't want to get to specific as a thread on another forum degenerated into some serious insulting that was totally unwarranted but yes frustration was the root cause of the original thread.

I myself do not make a living from development, but 2 of the other developers do, and it is possible, maybe not here in the USA, but if you live somewhere where the cost of living is a 10th of what we pay it is more than possible.

I am really thankful for the majority of postings here about this subject as they have been constructive, helpful and supportive. We will be back but after a lot of work figuring out an anti piracy solution that as Colin said, protects our investment and does not alienate the existing customer base.

Thanks all :)


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[Penzoil3]

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif
Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

[mmann]

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif
Went back to Nemeth today and bought the BO-105, the EC 135 and the Super Stallion. Putting my money where my mouth is- support !
Sue

Excuse my ignorance but how can you purchase their product if they have posted in a number of flight sim forums that "Nemeth designs ceasing operation due to piracy"? Did they reopen for business?

Regards, Mike Mann

[Aussiecop]

There were several clarification posts, that we are suspending "new" development, we still have an online store and are still providing support for our products currently on the market (with an order number obviously)


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[mmann]

I must have missed the clarification posts; mainly what I noticed were the number of hot under the collar posts.

Regards, Mike Mann

[krazycolin]

I was pretty mad too mate. I am still if the truth be known.

[jeansy]

Krazycolin, I think that given the flightsim community's acute awareness of the damage piracy is doing to our hobby, we'd be prepared to accept some degree of invasive measures, if thats what it took to protect developers profits.

not really i can think back in 2003/04 when i was first made aware of it with alphasim and their methods of security, this made most websites, little has changed in piracy since then nor it will in the future

its like anything cybercrime hasnt reached its peak, its only a matter of time where even the new aerosoft key it cracked, if Microsoft cant protect their products how will a little game dev will

my view on this hasnt changed from the locked thread and it will never

all these threads do is just open old wounds and drag things on, and highlight the fact its out there for the new young user, as soon he reads thats its out there on torrent, he will go actively searching for it, what you have set out to try and stop you have advertised and encouraged

colin i understand your frustation, i do hear you, your models are that detailed theyre a right pain in the ass to work with when painting but IMO, threads this shouldnt be posted at general flightsiming sites but left for the individual devs site forum, it draws negative attention the the sim, and discourages people to read threads. for instance lastnight at hover control, ive received 31pms in the past 24hrs saying thank god thats over even from one person who i was very surprised to hear it from for a topic that was locked regarding same topic, people are sick of hearing about it, and fills up the forums with the same stuff every month , and if people want to show their support, they can always go to the developers site and show it there,

if anything a short post about the complaint and a link to the devs site, then it should be locked, so it doesnt get heated and drag things out here. Ive seen to many good guys fight among themselves over this, I know Dean isnt to impressed with me about my tac-less blunt comments, but that hasnt changed my views on him as im sitting waving my fist at the screen waiting for his tbm.

thankyou Mick, François and over devs out there that accept that its a fact of life instead of dragging it out & Helldiver you old salt, your still a gentleman


i give it another month until this topic surfaces in another form or shape, anyway has the TBM been released yet its due today?

[paulb]

Before this thread is locked - which by the way I think that it should be (as suggested by jeansy), here are a couple of constructive suggestions -

1. I think that all developers should follow the FTX approach - ie you have to show your purchase information before you can ask for help on a support matter.

2. Developers should find a way to ensure that updates are only available to purchasers that can show their purchase information.

Lastly, can I appeal to anyones sense of decency and standards?

All FSX producers/developers are a part of a 'cottage' industry nowadays. ie no-one makes much money from any purchases, but the small earnings available might be very important to some developers. IF YOU DONT BUY THE PRODUCTS, THEN THE DEVELOPERS WILL STOP DEVELOPING. If that matters to you - even a little bit - then buy something. :salute:

[skyhawka4m]

Since all of this has happened I've shown my support by purchasing the BO-105, and just the other night the MD500....both of which are awesome to fly. I'm hoping for more repaints for the 500 though...otherwise.....having fun in my ND helo's.

[skyhawka4m]

Isn't there a way to hide a code, or something minor on each aircreaft so that if something shows up on a priate site you'll know right away who it is? maybe a serial number hidden somewhere? Minor changes to the model...something that is not obvious? How about a limited run serial numbered aircraft? Limit sales to say 4 or 5 hundred? I don't know if that many sell but I'm just trying to get a point across.

[michael davies]

Isn't there a way to hide a code, or something minor on each aircreaft so that if something shows up on a priate site you'll know right away who it is? maybe a serial number hidden somewhere? Minor changes to the model...something that is not obvious? How about a limited run serial numbered aircraft? Limit sales to say 4 or 5 hundred? I don't know if that many sell but I'm just trying to get a point across.

Did that with the Seaking way back in FS9, buried a serial number in the Hex code of the mdl, it's not rocket science you only need a four digit code to cover most sales, rarely if ever will a model exceed 9999 sales. Problem is if you sell 500 you have to compile 500 individual mdls and you have to have a developer with the will to implement such a strategy, but I added serials to the first copy and then the updates differently from the betas, narrowed it down a little but as a third party developer for a bigger concern I was toothless, nothing gets in the way of the cash flow you see, shame, could have locked it down years ago for a little back bone up front and patience from consumers.

Having said that, during that time period consumers were very anti anything that even mildly impinged on their rights and instant gratification to download, you wouldn't believe the hate mail if their download took more then 5 mins to complete!. So sadly I shed no tears for developers who in the past just wanted to milk the cash cow as quick and fast as possible after release and now cry foul at torrents, they made their bed, they can lie in it, if we'd started something back then then maybe the issue would not be as bad today

Maybe now is a good time to revisit such tactics, but I suspect the cash flow will still come above security I'm sad to say.

[JAllen]

I worked a project involving 'Jolly Green' many years ago and have had a small interest in trying to fly one in FSX. Closest model is CH-53 of Nemeth but never acted on a purchase. I suck horribly with helo's you see, but what the heck, I now have a pseudo Jolly Green in the hangar next to my old beat up Huey I've had since its release, also Nemeth BTW.

Now my FSX hangar is only short a couple aircraft representing all my experiences in my 22 year career.

Jim

[Bjoern]

Down where we do our skiing, people over 65 get a discount for the lifts (used to be 60). Maybe we should do something like that for old-age pensioners in the FSX industry too.

About half of our customers would fall into that category I'd say. :-)

If old people get a bonus, students and the disabled should get one, too! ;P


What about an experiment?

You throw a payware plane out with the invested work hours openly and clearly visisble on the page.

The customers can pay anything from 1 to 50€ for it, but, upon purchase must state their age, occupation and why they paid 1 or 50€s for it.

Granted, it would be just like donationware, but you'd get more of a customer<-> designer feedback and an impression of your average customer.

Also, what about delivering add-ons in components?
(Same as Rise Of Flight does with their entire sim.)
The total cost for everything would still be the regular price (40€s), but it would allow users to save money by leaving out the 2D panel or VC or the tons of repaints or the custom sounds.

PC gaming follows this route with its DLC craze, but it makes perfect sense if you consider that we're living in an age of individualization anyways.

[krazycolin]

I have a better one:

I will sell you the afterburners for 2 bucks, the landing gear for 5, the wings and fuselage for 10, the pilot figure for free, the paint kit for a buck, the VC for 10, all steam gauges for 10, any glass for 15-20 and the rest for free... oh.. Sound and a manual for 5 bucks.

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

[Meshman]

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

$63.00, if you go full price on the glass. A little to steep for my wallet, unless you give an AARP discount? :wavey:


There are solutions to the problem, if people will expand the thought process a little. Stopping all piracy may never happen, but setting up some deterrence will help to slow things down. IMO, of course.

[AndyE1976]

There are solutions to the problem, if people will expand the thought process a little. Stopping all piracy may never happen, but setting up some deterrence will help to slow things down. IMO, of course.

Since I saw this thread start up I've been thinking about this quite a bit and whilst I can't claim to have any wild great solutions, the one thing that did occur to me was that there are a load of smart people on here who all have one thing in common - we want to support developers developing for our hobby.

Perhaps a more positive spin on the piracy thread would be to work collectively to find something that would work, perhaps not against the most dedicated hackers, but for the majority.

Am I being too naive to think that we could come up with something that worked for the majority of users, didn't cost developers much (if anything) to use and would make the pirates job a real PITA?

[ZEUS67]

My two cents. Add-ons are at the end of things, software. All software can be provided with a lock, which is not foolproof, but it will deter most casual downloaders.

But all that will do is buy time, since somebody will break the lock and post it on the net.

Piracy is something that not even multibillion corporations can truly do anything. The only way to make people purchase your products is to give them more value than just the plain purchase. Customer Support or downloadable content, available only with proof of purchase. Stuff like that is the only thing that will keep people come back to your store.

But you must remember that almost everybody who download a pirated product, is not a customer lost. That person was never a customer for whatever reason.

[Piglet]

And people wonder why I don't go payware...
The best part of that closed thread was the new term I learned from that thread:
Dummy Spitting!

[mmann]

And people wonder why I don't go payware...
The best part of that closed thread was the new term I learned from that thread:
Dummy Spitting!

+1
Yes the Dummy Spitting part was most certainly the highlight of that thread!

Regards, Mike Mann

[CWOJackson]

I believe there are three things that contribute significantly to the problem:

- To add to what Zeus said, the relationship of the manufacturer and customers. Is a vendor that has a strong and responsive relationship with it's customers as pirated as one that has a more distant/less responsive relationship? Is part of the psychology is that it's okay to pirate from a vendor that you don't like?

- What degree does cost (also mentioned by Zeus) play? Is there a threshold where the conscience feels pirating is acceptable? "I can afford $20 but screw $60!" What happens when you combine both of the factors? For instance, is a vendor that has a great relationship with their customers, produces exceptional products and priced low as impacted by piracy as a company with a tenuous relationship with their customers and charges a higher price?

- Lastly, I have to wonder what the statistics are for the different types of addons? For instance, was the DC-2 (outstanding as it is) as pirated as any of the numerous spitfire packages? What about the A2A Boeing 377 and Piper compared to the latest fighter package? Are bush pilots more honest then fighter jocks?

[jeansy]

And people wonder why I don't go payware...The best part of that closed thread was the new term I learned from that thread:Dummy Spitting!More than happy to share the language of the Aussie bum

[Naki]

I learnt something new...I thought "spat the dummy" was known worldwide. :icon_lol:

[Meshman]

Am I being too naive to think that we could come up with something that worked for the majority of users, didn't cost developers much (if anything) to use and would make the pirates job a real PITA?

I believe I've mentioned this before, but when I released my first work through online stores it hit the sharing sites (forums, not torrents) fairly quickly. I then changed to primarily selling from my site and have not seen any subsequent work shared. It might have been, but I haven't seen or heard about it.

I had, and will have again, a page that addresses theft on my site. I warn the potential customer that would want to share that there are identifiable features to each sale's product files. For any user of the work I do, there is no intrusion, no activation, nothing to disrupt the everyday-joe from enjoying what he paid for. For the person who would want to share, if I find the files, it would take me about two minutes to know who had done so. And I did, and will again, caution people that I will name names on the web site.

I can't stop all of it, but I can hope to deter some of it. I feel it's an issue that I must address with any potential customer, but that 99% of the people won't have a problem with. Might I lose or have lost some sales because of it? Don't know, but that is a consequence I have thought about and am willing to accept.

As my solution has shown, you can try to deter without be a pain in the rear about it. While my scope of business is in terrain based products, there may be somewhat similar solutions available for those that model airplanes or helicopters or high-end airport work. Sometimes you just need to think outside the bun! <----old tagline for a line of Taco Bell commercials. :icon_lol:

[Francois]

@Bjoern Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.

FWIW, my reasoning for granting a discount to 'pensioners' (I hate talking of OLD people myself), would NOT only be to curb piracy ( I personally think THEY are the least pf our problems in that respect) but more of a 'general acknowledgement' for what they have done for us as follow-up generations... and for hanging i there.

Students will have time enough in their life to build brilliant executive careers and save some oney for nice add-ons AND will need to still somehow PROVE they're worth the respect ;-) No disrespect meant in that, but I am sure you understand what I mean. ;-)

Some of the other ideas hold merit, and some have been thought about already. We'll also have something incorporated in our new FlightSchool product which is related the the one product that has NEVER been pirated yet, Its Your Plane.

Another issue that is making things harder for me as publisher (and not developer) is that I need to convince the actual developers that giving discounts - and hence subtracting from our mutual income - is a good idea :icon_lol:
Some will agree, some won't.

And some products just don't lend themselves for it. Our 10 Euro Dolomiti X series is already priced way below the effort to build it, for instance.

So, whoever said producing add-ons for FS is simple ? :running:

[Francois]

Am I being too naive to think that we could come up with something that worked for the majority of users, didn't cost developers much (if anything) to use and would make the pirates job a real PITA?

Maybe not naive, but you'll find it is a LOT harder than it would seem. I've been in this hobby for over 35 years now...... surprise me :-)

[emfrat]

Somewhere - and honestly I am not sure where, it's been so long - I have a file for a printable Dummy-Spit-of-the-Week Certificate, which was a valuable stress management tool in our department.
The last award I was involved in was to a colleague, who e-mailed everyone a memo, apologising for cancelling a meeting which he had somehow failed to tell us about in the first place...the award was not for that, but was given when he blew his stack on finding about ten copies of the email stuck up on the section of the office wall reserved for such howlers; from memory several people were trampled in the rush to display it.
Happy Days...

MikeW

[wombat666]

While the various suggestions made to combat thieves are mostly interesting and intelligent, the single greatest problem remains with a product purchased by an apparently legitimate customer which ends up on a torrent site.
It has happened in the past and it will continue to do so, certain groups of thieves club together and purchase a subject which they 'share', inevitably this ends up on a certain open torrent site and goes feral.
As we have seen, for obscure legal reasons the site in question remains untouchable.

Why do people do this?
Some 'Because they can.'
Others because they are just thieves plain and simple.
Most because they like to big note themselves and have a small penis.

I think this thread has almost run its course and perhaps it would be wise to take a low profile on possible security matters, we never know who might be following the subject with an unhealthy interest.
Discretion is a wise choice.

:kilroy:

[fsafranek]

Back when I was a working stiff, about six years ago and I had more money than brains. I bought about everything that was advertised. Just as long as it hung a propeller. Then I quit working and went on Social Security. About that time my hard drive froze up, I also changed my e-mail address (it was stolen from me) plus I changed my Charge Card account.
I got me a new hard drive and tried to get my aircraft back. I had 12 of them from Alpha but because he didn’t recognize my name or my e-mail address we got into a real peeing contest and I didn’t get my aircraft back.
Then there was a Russian outfit that sold me Moscow Airport and had a password that was 400 characters long. They didn’t recognize me.
I then took on Fight One. They had 22 airplanes that I had purchased. It took them a year. But God bless them, they at least made good.
Caranado was quite different. They refused to even acknowledge I ever existed. Even though I had bought 12 airplanes from them. I fought with them for a month and finally gave up. There were others that I bought one or two from with the same negative results. So there’s countless 100 of dollars down the drain, without a thank you. Or any airplanes that I had paid for.
Now I’m living on Social Security and I’m looking at Spendware airplanes that are selling for $35. About what FSX originally cost me, come to think about it. Now I don’t care how nice it s, I can’t afford to throw away that kind of money with no guarantee that I can get it back when everything turns brown.
Now if my kid brother, in Alabama, sends me a nice airplane - than that makes me a pirate. But under my current circumstances, I just can’t afford to be ripped off any longer.

This is too late to help with any of the above situations but I saw it the other day while trolling for FS/Mirage news. At the time I shrugged it off as just another add-on that I wouldn't need since I'm pretty anal about backups. But I saw this FSX Backup utility again this morning and remembered Hewlldiver's post. So for what it's worth:

http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=2991
:ernae:

[Bjoern]

I have a better one:

I will sell you the afterburners for 2 bucks, the landing gear for 5, the wings and fuselage for 10, the pilot figure for free, the paint kit for a buck, the VC for 10, all steam gauges for 10, any glass for 15-20 and the rest for free... oh.. Sound and a manual for 5 bucks.

I'm not even sure what all this adds up too.

As long as you can "componentize" the stuff stored in the .mdl... ;P




FWIW, my reasoning for granting a discount to 'pensioners' (I hate talking of OLD people myself), would NOT only be to curb piracy ( I personally think THEY are the least pf our problems in that respect) but more of a 'general acknowledgement' for what they have done for us as follow-up generations... and for hanging i there.

Students will have time enough in their life to build brilliant executive careers and save some oney for nice add-ons AND will need to still somehow PROVE they're worth the respect ;-) No disrespect meant in that, but I am sure you understand what I mean. ;-)

I don't. And I feel slightly offended. And discriminated.

If the world outside gives benefits to students or dinosaurs, why can't the internet? All it'd take for me would be mailing a certificate of immatriculation to a publisher that can be verified at the university's homepage and done.

Heck, even fast food joints grant a 10% rebate upon showing your student ID!




while trolling for FS/Mirage news

Haha!

[Aussiecop]

This thread has a pretty good bunch of suggestions, some of which we are looking at, in regards to discounts, w have started running sales etc and I do help fellow simmers out, although I don't publish the things I do behind the scenes I am an avid supporter of the military and the sacrifices they make to keep us safe. I recently got an email from a soldier posted in Iraq who had some issues as he was running on a laptop and fsx and our helos keep him sane.

We have some things like hsi knobs that are activated by the mouse wheel, I didn't want him to have issues being that this was his only
Vice, so I went and bought him a mouse at the store and sent it to him in Iraq.

These are the things that you don't hear developers doing but I am sure happen, everyone can do better as a developer, but we do try to do things to help people as well as sell payware :)


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[N2056]

I recently got an email from a soldier posted in Iraq who had some issues as he was running on a laptop and fsx and our helos keep him sane.

We have some things like hsi knobs that are activated by the mouse wheel, I didn't want him to have issues being that this was his only Vice, so I went and bought him a mouse at the store and sent it to him in Iraq.

That was a very class thing to do. Thanks for supporting our troops! :salute:

[ZEUS67]

I believe there are three things that contribute significantly to the problem:

- To add to what Zeus said, the relationship of the manufacturer and customers. Is a vendor that has a strong and responsive relationship with it's customers as pirated as one that has a more distant/less responsive relationship? Is part of the psychology is that it's okay to pirate from a vendor that you don't like?

- What degree does cost (also mentioned by Zeus) play? Is there a threshold where the conscience feels pirating is acceptable? "I can afford $20 but screw $60!" What happens when you combine both of the factors? For instance, is a vendor that has a great relationship with their customers, produces exceptional products and priced low as impacted by piracy as a company with a tenuous relationship with their customers and charges a higher price?

- Lastly, I have to wonder what the statistics are for the different types of addons? For instance, was the DC-2 (outstanding as it is) as pirated as any of the numerous spitfire packages? What about the A2A Boeing 377 and Piper compared to the latest fighter package? Are bush pilots more honest then fighter jocks?

Companies with a strong customer relationship get as pirated as the ones with a tenous one. The difference is that the customers will keep purchasing from that company because of the added value of the relationship.

A company with poor or non-existent support, well IMO some would believe that since there is no difference between purchasing it and grabbing it from the net they may as well get it free.

Customer support/relationship is the only thing that can deter piracy and avoid turning a paying customer into a "pirate." And happy customers are the best advertising there is.

[Francois]

I don't. And I feel slightly offended. And discriminated.



No reason to.
I noticed over the past years here that there's quite a few things you don't understand yet. Or maybe don't WANT to understand?
I'll blame it on age and experience... or rather lack thereof.... and shrug it off ;-)

[warchild]

Gentlemen, please.. Some of us "dinosaurs" dont deal so well with intellectual sparring matches, and i'd hate to see this thread closed because it got out of hand...
If you wish to spar, please take it private.. Otherwise i just might get upset, and you wouldnt want to see me upset.. Really..
Pam

[Francois]

'FS Dinosaurs'... great title for a new product ;-)

[warchild]

:::LOL:: I SO needed that Francois.. Thank you :) :) :)

[Bjoern]

No reason to.
I noticed over the past years here that there's quite a few things you don't understand yet. Or maybe don't WANT to understand?
I'll blame it on age and experience... or rather lack thereof.... and shrug it off ;-)

Oh well, whatever.

[CWOJackson]

'FS Dinosaurs'... great title for a new product ;-)

If Piglet builds it I'll fly it.

[Francois]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

[OleBoy]

'FS Dinosaurs'... great title for a new product ;-)

That puts the word "pit" in a complete new perspective :icon_lol:

[jmig]

Which companies (developers) use this "Steam" process in their models?

[Francois]

None in the 'FS world' as far as I know. But programs such as Call of Duty, Operation Flashpoint, America's Army and many others in the gaming world do, and also the latest railway simulator RailWorks.

[jmig]

None in the 'FS world' as far as I know. But programs such as Call of Duty, Operation Flashpoint, America's Army and many others in the gaming world do, and also the latest railway simulator RailWorks.

Thanks Francois. I am glad this isn't used in FSX. I do not fly online. My two cockpit computers are LANed to each other but I only go online when I have to activate something.