B-17 Liberty Belle CRASHED!

[argo147]

Just saw this on the news, in Oswego, IL. Luckily everyone on board survived, but the Liberty Belle looked really bad. I'm glad everyone could walk away but the sight of a burning B-17 on the ground is never very good. I didn't hear why it crashed but I'll keep an eye out.

RIP Liberty Belle:salute:

EDIT:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-crews-responding-to-incident-involving-wwii-bomber-20110613,0,5852034.story


(http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-crews-responding-to-incident-involving-wwii-bomber-20110613,0,5852034.story)

[Daveroo]

OMG what a shame......this isnt need in the warbird community...now some FAA geek or congressperson will latch on to it and try to get all warbirds grounded

[argo147]

That would be unfortunate, and I hope it never comes to that. It's really sad to see such a beautiful aircraft in that state, but I am glad that the passengers and crew got out before it got bad. The pilot is to be commended for putting it down in that cornfield with an engine on fire, I'm sure that must have been a pretty intense few minutes.

[Cirrus N210MS]

found the News Video here is the youtube version wonder what started the fire on the plane




LcrQLsRfGkw

[Bomber_12th]

This is just gut-wrenching to see that aircraft in such a state. I'm very, very glad to hear that everyone made it out okay however! From what little I have heard and seen, it sounds like the crew did one heck of a job to safely get the aircraft down quickly, into just the best available place. The latest I have heard is that there was an engine fire that quickly developed and spread.

It would be great to see this thread's titled changed from 'crashed' to emergency landing, as it was.

My heart goes out to Don Brooks and the entire Liberty Foundation team.

[argo147]

It would be great to see this thread's titled changed from 'crashed' to emergency landing, as it was.

True, I guess I jumped the gun on that one.

Looks like the engines are still pretty much intact, hopefully they can still fly on in another B-17. It must be heart wrenching for the people at the Liberty Belle foundation who restored and maintained the aircraft to see something like this happen to it, I can't imagine...

Just read another story from the Chicago Tribune, A WWII Vet turned down a ride on the Liberty Belle today, apparently there was a minor oil leak on one of the engines that was fixed but he decided to stay home because he wasn't feeling well.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-vet-turned-down-trip-on-plane-i-was-lucky-this-morning-20110613,0,4273112.story

[Flyboy208]

So sad to hear about this, and as John stated, a good thing everyone aboard got out safe ... Mike

[CP1207]

So sorry to hear of this.
Glad everyone got out.

39989

Driving into my first EAA Oshkosh many years ago, I was greeted by a formation flight of 3 B-17s overhead.
Nothing I had ever expected to see, something I will never forget.

[Allen]

Damm...

[luckydog]

Terrible news !!!!

Witt should be able to give specifics....

[Motormouse]

It must be heart wrenching for the people at the Liberty Belle foundation who restored and maintained the aircraft to see something like this happen to it, I can't imagine...



Just posted in the thread in FSX forum; restoration (they made one from two)
was done at Tom Reilly's place at Kissimmee; Florida, (next to Warbird Adventures)
I was there when it was rolled out having escaped damage in a pesky Hurricane ( Charley IIRC) unlike Tom's Hangar which was pretty much flattened.

What a shame.

ttfn

Pete

[GT182]

Any word from Witt? That's the one he and his dad are a part of, the Liberty Belle foundation. Sad loss of a special B-17.... as all the surviving B-17s are.

Photos:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-110613-b17-plane-crash-pictures,0,3672607.photogallery

[Cactuskid]

What a cryin' shame! I took a tour of Liberty Belle a couple of years ago when she was in Marana, AZ. What a beautiful bird she was! I wish I could have taken a ride in her, but at $425 for a half hour, I just couldn't afford it. I'm glad to hear that everyone got out safely. A tragic loss to be sure...

[Crusader]

[QUOTE=GT182;595348]Any word from Witt? That's the one he and his dad are a part of, the Liberty Belle foundation. Sad loss of a special B-17.... as all the surviving B-17s are.

I was just thinking about Witt . I thought that was the one that he and his Dad were associated with as you stated GT182 . They must be heart broken . Very sad news indeed for all of us who love historic aircraft .

Rich

[FAC257]

Any word from Witt? That's the one he and his dad are a part of, the Liberty Belle foundation.

That was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the news today.


Forest

[Gdavis101]

Sad... But, I am glad everyone made it out okay..

[Wittpilot]

Well, I don't know what to say.

First I want to say thanks for all the comments and well-wishers. I was not on board and none of the 7 people that were were too injured.

I left work early today to actually send my Liberty Foundation Newsletters that I publish to all our members to the printers. I was at my folks' house to pick up my two little girls when dad's phone rings. He runs upstairs, comes back down after a few minutes and says that was Don Brooks & that Liberty Belle had a fire and was in a field in IL. I quickly pulled it up on my phone and no matter how hard I try, I don't think I put into words how we all initially felt.

Thank God nobody was hurt, and a huge reason for this was because of the actions by an incredible pilot. I won't give his name since Mr. Brooks didn't offer it in an interview, he is in several pictures of the crash so if you might recognize him. I know him and he is indeed a great pilot. I didn't know the individual in the right seat at the time.

It is really like losing a family member. I never thought you could get a sense of loss from an 'object', but you really can. It was the first time I really got to be involved with a group of people like that. The people involved with the Liberty Foundation are a unique bunch and some of the nicest people you will ever meet.

I won't go into any details, truth is I don't know much than all of you at this point. I was super excited to get to spend an entire weekend with the bird in two weeks.... But am thankful that the fire didn't occur somewhere over downtown Cincy!

I think I will have an official press release for everybody tomorrow. I talked with friend that was actually travelling with Ray in the P-40... He didn't have too much to add other than the pilot did one hell of a job to slap the plane into the space that was there and in thick mud on top of that.

She will be saddly missed. She was painted in my grandfather's Bomb Group and was the only B-17 I've flown in. She will always hold a special place in my heart.

Stay tuned folks....

Alot of pictures Here...

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110613/news/706139915/photos/AR/

[Cirrus N210MS]

thats just bad sorry for the loss of the plane

[GT182]

This is probably a stupid question Witt, but is there any way she can be restored? I don't imagine there's a fuselage and wings just sitting around that could be used... but hopefully there might be.

[Roadburner440]

This is probably a stupid question Witt, but is there any way she can be restored? I don't imagine there's a fuselage and wings just sitting around that could be used... but hopefully there might be.

Going from the photographs of what is left, and being an actual aviation structural mechanic I do not think there is anyway the bird could ever be brought back... Granted my only experience is on helicopters, but it looks like the B-17 landed fully in tact. Then as the fire burned it melted the aluminum, and underlying structures turning it into the end mass we see. The only pieces that look to be unwarped/salvageable is the small section of the nose behind the glass that is uncharred, the ends of the wings where the 'tokyo tanks' are located on A2A's B-17, the tail, and maybe the engine nacelles.. Since the engines were shut down without striking the ground those will most likely be salvagable/fly again. Either way most of the structure is melted into the aluminum pool on the ground, and the surrounding aluminum is warped from the heat and must be replaced. I am just glad nobody got hurt.. I first read this over on the A2A forums and after seeing the pictures I thought everyone surely was dead. Fortunately after reading articles though the crew survived. Please continue working with the foundation Witt, and keeping history alive. This is only but a small bump in the journey.

[robert41]

Hard to watch one of few B17's left burn. Good news that everyone on board got out safe.

[Wittpilot]

This is probably a stupid question Witt, but is there any way she can be restored? I don't imagine there's a fuselage and wings just sitting around that could be used... but hopefully there might be.

Roadrunner did a nice job answering that question, and knows far more than I would. I would think that the engines just may be saved, bits of the tail & wingtips, and thats about it... I mean, if we think about it, that is pretty much similar to what some restorations start with. We probably only had a little more than that in Urbana.... It is absolutely nothing time or money wouldn't solve. Fortunately Mr. Brooks has another B-17 that he can restore. UNFORTUNATELY, you are looking at a complete rebuild and a very looooong one at that....

-witt

[Allen]

Roadrunner did a nice job answering that question, and knows far more than I would. I would think that the engines just may be saved, bits of the tail & wingtips, and thats about it... I mean, if we think about it, that is pretty much similar to what some restorations start with. We probably only had a little more than that in Urbana.... It is absolutely nothing time or money wouldn't solve. Fortunately Mr. Brooks has another B-17 that he can restore. UNFORTUNATELY, you are looking at a complete rebuild and a very looooong one at that....

-witt

Well there is hope parts of the Liberty Belle will fly again!

[Wittpilot]

I decided to upload 3 random memories real quick...

First is from 2 years ago in Cincy on our way up to Cleveland... (I was hoping to make that trip again in two weeks!)

A picture from 2005 while she stayed a week at our home airport... I wasn't really involved with any duties then, but still got several "perks"

And a picture ~ 2006 that is one of my all tame fav shots taken right after buzzing the field in Urbana taken by my good friend....

-witt

[Wittpilot]

On a lighter note, my brother has been texting me all day...One text from earlier was,

"Dude, I think I need a hug...."

Now I just got one that said....."I fixed the whole problem. We need to buy Pink Lady!!! Dude there not using it, I mean come on!"

Forgive him, he's in college..... although he does make a good point....She's pretty much a flier that has been put out to pasture because they can't afford to fly her.........

Hmmmmmmmm I wonder what the shipping charges on that baby would be......

-witt

[mrogers]

Terrible shame to see Liberty Belle destroyed. The pilot did a great job force landing. And the aircraft was completely intact! Arrgh..how frustrating and upsetting that would have been for the crew as they could do nothing but watch her burn with no emergency services around to put it out.
It's obvious to me where the fire originated from. Just looking at the burn pattern shows its spread out from behind the inner port engine with the feathered prop that you see in the pics and vid.

[Panther_99FS]

Looks to me like very good actions by the crew...

[Wittpilot]

Here's the Note I put on my FB.... Hopefully tomorrow we will have an official statement to post on the Liberty Foundation's website (its currently down) and our FB page....



If you asked me last week if I'd be distraught at the thought of losing an inanimate object I would have probably laughed at you. I mean sure, we all have our “things” that we would miss, but what about something you don’t even own?

Right after I heard Liberty Belle had made an emergency landing and a fire onboard, I opened up the news on my phone and tried to prepare myself for what I saw…. Nothing could have prepared me for what the images showed. She caught fire shortly after takeoff and the pilot had to put her in as best he could…. And did he ever… He flopped her in on a soggy field wheels down and gave everybody the chance to get out. The fire spread quickly and in minutes she was gone.

So why be upset? She offered so much to so many people. It gave them a chance to get up close and personal. To feel, smell, hear, & taste it. To experience what their grandparents must have felt.

She was a tough old bird… and much like her forefathers, even though she was spitting fire and on three engines, she brought everybody home safe.

Blue Skies & Tail Winds…….

[TomSteber]

Just heart breaking news. Can't think of anything else to say other then thank God the crew is safe.

[PRB]

This is heart breaking. Glab nobody was hurt. Liberty Bell in happier times. RIP.

http://www.prbsystems.com/pics/LibertyBell1.jpg

http://www.prbsystems.com/pics/LibertyBell2.jpg

http://www.prbsystems.com/pics/LibertyBell3.jpg

http://www.prbsystems.com/pics/LibertyBell4.jpg

[Smashing Time]

Indeed a depressing ending for this artifact history. Without a doubt the time it was touring brought back many memories for the vets as well as an appreciation of the experiences they had fighting for this country.
Thanks for the memories 'Liberty Belle'

[Railrunner130]

I came across Liberty Belle at least once. The time that I recall, she was at CYYT, in approximately August, 2006. I don't recall if she was coming or going. Either way, it's pretty impressive for an airplane of that age to be able to still cross the Atlantic.

As for restoration, one of the things that I learned from visiting Duxford ten years ago (already?) is that, where there is a will and cash, there is a way. It may not be legal to restore her in the US (a certain percentage must be original as I recall), but I'd bet somebody has the prerequisites.

It's hard to see through the smoke, but this could eventually turn into a good thing. It sounds like Mr. Brooks has another airplane that could be restored, potentially returning air to the underside of another pair of wings. If someone were to get Liberty Belle at the right price, possibly she could be restored as well.

Thankfully nobody was hurt.

[Daveroo]

i keep seeing the pics and reading the thoughts on rebuild,or buy another B17 for the foundation...well i hope the foundation keeps the nose/tail,and whats left of the wings and engine mounts cowls,,,they would make a great museum display and a memoria to not only that plane but to many crews who didnt make it home....

[Willy]

Maybe what's left of Liberty Belle can at least be used in another B-17. Say the one being built that Witt is working on.

[Bomber_12th]

Don Brooks has had another quite complete project B-17 for several years, known as the 'Labrador B-17'. The plan all along has been to make it a flyer as well, but hopefully, despite the loss of Liberty Belle, it will help to push forward the restoration of this B-17.

While speaking on this subject again, it just erks me to read the titles that the media has given to this incident. They sure like to use the term crash, don't they? Knowing that stating anything remotely close to the facts, wouldn't draw the mass public to read and watch and react as they want them to. It is obvious that through the photos and accounts that came to be just a few hours following the event, there was never anything close to what could be defined as a crash. Yet at this time, I just saw a headline that read "WWII Bomber Crashes at Show", two inaccurate statements in one! It's that type of ignorant and false reporting that can have a negative affect on the warbird community.

BTW, I have read today that all of the B-17 owners within the 'B-17 Co-Op', including the CAF, have voluntarilly grounded their operations, pending inspections of specific systems in light of yesterday's events, which is a very smart move. As reported via the CAF, it is not expected to be a lengthy process.

[Bomber_12th]

As posted by the Liberty Foundation's Chief Pilot, Ray Fowler, on their Facebook page -

First, let me start off by sincerely thanking everyone for the outpouring of support that we are receiving. I am sorry that I have not yet had the opportunity to return the many phone calls, text or e-mails that I am receiving offering to help. Again, thank you for all of the kind words that we are receiving and for incredible offers to help emotionally, financially and/or with the recovery process. I hope this statement will help fill in a few details that everyone is wondering about that led to the loss of our “Liberty Belle”.


Yesterday morning, both our P-40 and B-17 were scheduled to fly from Aurora, Illinois to Indianapolis, Indiana. We were in Aurora for the weekend as a part of our scheduled tour. Over the course of the previous week, we completed a scheduled 25-hour inspection on the B-17 which was completed by Saturday. On Saturday, the weather stayed below the required ceiling to give any passenger flights, however the B-17 flew in the morning on a routine training proficiency flight, performing several patterns. Following the flight, other maintenance issues arose that required us to cancel our Sunday flying schedule for repairs. The maintenance performed has not been, in any way, associated to the chain of events that led to Monday’s fateful flight, but is being considered in the preliminary investigation. However, due to the media’s sensational (mis)reporting, there is a large amount of misinformation that continues to lead the news.


Here is what we do know… Flying in the left seat of the B-17 was Capt. John Hess. John has been flying our Liberty Belle since 2005 and one of our most experienced B-17 pilots. He is an active Delta Air Lines Captain with over 14,000 hours of flying experience and flys a variety of vintage WWII aircraft. In the right seat was Bud Sittic. While Bud is new to the Liberty Foundation this year, he is also incredibly experienced with over 14,000 hours of flying time in vintage and hi-performance aircraft. He is a retired Captain with Delta Air Lines.


The news misidentified the P-40 as flying chase during the accident. I was flying our P-40, however I had departed 20 minutes prior to the B-17’s takeoff on the short flight to Indianapolis to setup for the B-17’s arrival. The aircraft flying chase was a T-6 Texan flown by owner Cullen Underwood. Cullen is one of our rated B-17 Captains and an experienced aviator tagging along as a support ship.


The takeoff of both aircraft was uneventful and proceeded on-course southeast. Prior to exiting Aurora’s airport traffic area, the B-17 crew and passengers began investigating an acrid smell and started a turn back to the airport. Almost immediately thereafter, Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing and reported over the radio that they were on fire.


As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While it is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.


Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location.


Unlike the sensational photos that you have all seen of the completely burned B-17 on the news, you will see from photos taken by our crew that our Liberty Belle was undamaged by the forced landing and at the time of landing, the wing fire damage was relatively small. The crew actually unloaded bags, then had the horrible task of watching the aircraft slowly burn while waiting for the fire trucks to arrive. There were high hopes that the fire would be extinguished quickly and the damage would be repairable. Those hopes were diminished as the fire trucks deemed the field too soft to cross due to the area’s recent rainfall. So while standing by our burning B-17 and watching the fire trucks parked at the field’s edge, they sadly watched the wing fire spread to the aircraft’s fuel cells and of course, you all have seen the end result. There is no doubt that had the fire equipment been able to reach our aircraft, the fire would have been quickly extinguished and our Liberty Belle would have been repaired to continue her worthwhile mission.


Let me go on the record by thanking the flight crew for their professionalism. Their actions were nothing short of heroic and their quick thinking, actions and experience led to a “successful” outcome to this serious in-flight emergency. John and Bud (and Cullen) did a remarkable job under extreme circumstances and performed spectacularly. While the leading news stories have repeatedly reported the “crash” of our B-17, fact is they made a successful forced landing and the aircraft was ultimately consumed by fire. Airplanes are replaceable but people are not and while the aircraft’s loss is tragic, it was a successful result.


This leads me into discussing the exceptional safety record of the Boeing B-17 and to hopefully squash the naysayers who preach we should not be flying these types of aircraft. Since we first flew the “Liberty Belle” in December of 2004, we have flown over 20,000 passengers throughout the country and if you count our historic trip to Europe in 2008, worldwide. Of the other touring B-17s, some of which that have been touring for over 20 years, they have safely flown hundreds of thousands of people. The aircraft’s safety record is spectacular and I am certain the overall cause of our issue, which is under investigation, will not tarnish that safety record. In fact, as many of you know, other B-17 have suffered significant damage (although not as bad as ours!), only to be re-built to fly again. From a passenger carrying standpoint, I can think of few aircraft that offer the same level of safety as the 4-engine “Flying Fortress”. As mentioned earlier, in-flight fires are extremely rare and certainly could affect any powered aircraft under certain circumstances. I would put my children today in any of the other touring B-17s to go fly. I suggest to anyone that was thinking of doing so when a B-17 visits your area to do so without giving our loss any thought.


There is wild speculation going on as to the cause of our fire and the affect to other operators. Please let the investigation run its course and report the findings. The NTSB and FAA were quickly on the scene and we are working closely with them to aid in the investigation. As soon as we receive some additional information, we will release it via the website <!-- m -->http://www.libertyfoundation.org/<!-- m -->.


The ultimate question remains, where does the Liberty Foundation go from here? After the investigation and recovery, we will determine our options. We are still committed to the restoration and flying of World War II aircraft. Again, we appreciate the support and people offering to help get us back flying.


Please check back for updates. I will close by thanking everyone that made our tour so successful. From the first day of the B-17’s restoration, thank you for all of you who labored to get her flying over the initial restoration years and to everyone that has worked on her out on tour since. Thank you to the crewmembers, tour coordinators and volunteers who gave up weekends and countless hours to support her on the road. And finally, thank you to the passengers, donors and media patrons that flew aboard and everyone who supported our cause. Hopefully, this will not be the end of the story, but a new beginning.


Regards,

Ray Fowler

The Liberty Foundation, Chief Pilot

[Daveroo]

to comment on what bomber12 said...sentimental journy was at the EAA fly-in at yuba county last weekend and they were having some sort of troubles...im NOT speculating or rumormonging...but i have pics of the number two and three engines with the cowlings off and oil everywhere...the announcer kept saying there would be B17 rides..then you looked at the b17 and it was in pieces,,at one point they seemed to be trying to either start or just turn over the number two,,,it made a loud whirrring sound..the prop never turned..it smoked a little and popped..then a man on the ground with a headset on took off his headset and threw it across the pavement...

[Wittpilot]

to comment on what bomber12 said...sentimental journy was at the EAA fly-in at yuba county last weekend and they were having some sort of troubles...im NOT speculating or rumormonging...but i have pics of the number two and three engines with the cowlings off and oil everywhere...the announcer kept saying there would be B17 rides..then you looked at the b17 and it was in pieces,,at one point they seemed to be trying to either start or just turn over the number two,,,it made a loud whirrring sound..the prop never turned..it smoked a little and popped..then a man on the ground with a headset on took off his headset and threw it across the pavement...


You have to realize that that is a pretty regular occurrence with warbirds.....

[Wittpilot]

BTW, I love how I am one of two mods on the FB page and John read that before I did!!!!!!!!

I thinkt the fact that the airplane was saveable after the forced landing in the field, just makes it all that much more horrible I think.... I mean, if the trucks couldn't have made it back there, they couldn't make it back... but to have to sit there and watch the poor son of a gun burn..... I couldn't have done it.....

[TARPSBird]

Look at the wheels of the aircraft, they're not sunk axle-deep in mud. Seems to me that if the field was able to support the aircraft, the fire trucks could've made it to the scene when they first showed up. I'll be sure to get good homeowner's insurance if I ever buy a house in Oswego, in case of fire my yard might be too muddy for their trucks. :rolleyes:

[Roadburner440]

BTW, I love how I am one of two mods on the FB page and John read that before I did!!!!!!!!

I thinkt the fact that the airplane was saveable after the forced landing in the field, just makes it all that much more horrible I think.... I mean, if the trucks couldn't have made it back there, they couldn't make it back... but to have to sit there and watch the poor son of a gun burn..... I couldn't have done it.....

For me that is what struck me the most as well.. Not necessarily that the aircraft is gone per say, but the way the media initially reported it. Then other people having to point out that it was intact when it landed. Is why I said when I saw what the media reported I surely though the crew had died cause all I saw was wings, and smoldering wreckage... The fact that the field could support that B-17 though proves to me it could have supported the trucks. There was a truck in the field after the larger blaze was extinguished in some of the photos. Either way it just wasn't meant to be. Was some very good and quick thinking on the pilots part though as more of the facts are emerging. Is what good airmanship is about. Saving lives both in the air and on the ground when the excrement hits the fan by following proper rules and procedures.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Daveroo http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=595659#post595659)
to comment on what bomber12 said...sentimental journy was at the EAA fly-in at yuba county last weekend and they were having some sort of troubles...im NOT speculating or rumormonging...but i have pics of the number two and three engines with the cowlings off and oil everywhere...the announcer kept saying there would be B17 rides..then you looked at the b17 and it was in pieces,,at one point they seemed to be trying to either start or just turn over the number two,,,it made a loud whirrring sound..the prop never turned..it smoked a little and popped..then a man on the ground with a headset on took off his headset and threw it across the pavement...

To comment to this, it is not just a regular occurance on warbirds, but almost ANY military aircraft. Everyday it is something new with the H-60's I work on. Whether it is the brand new ones having rivets backing out, engine problems, or severe avionics problems. To the older ones just getting fatigued, parts wearing out, and leaking fluid. Believe me there are days I have wanted to chuck my headset across the flight line too when you fix 1 hydraulic leak, and then another weak point gives and you start all over again. Some days the bird cooperates, and does what you want. Other days it has a mind of its own, and they are determined despite your best efforts to not get airborne. Is just the nature of the beast.

[GT182]

Mr. Fowler is absolutely correct, it wasn't crash. And the media should step up and change the wrong they have done. It was an Emergency Forced Landing. That's how I believe the NTSB and FAA will call the incident.

As for the loss of material things Witt..... yes it's painful. Very painful to those of us that are a part of this 'flying' history. Tho she wasn't mine and I had no part of her or her operation, it did bring tears to my eyes. I've been involved with a few old warbirds in my time and the loss of any is a loss of some very important history. It's just as painful to see one go as Liberty Belle did, and I can only imagine it was the same back during WWII, whether it was the loss of the aircraft itself or the loss or aircraft and crew. Thank God no one was lost this time around.

Liberty Belle will live on in everyone's mind, hearts, and photos. Hopefully someday Liberty Belle II might take to the skies as just her dearly departed sister had done before her.

:salute: to the Liberty Foundation.

[Terry]

One would think they could have tried to run one truck out there to see if it would hold. Pulling a truck out of the mud is a lot cheaper than burning an aircraft.

Anyone know if the plane was insured for its actual cash value?

[Daveroo]

my point about the eaa fly-in incident wasnt that it was unusual that the plane was recieving "matincace" during the show..yup yup very normal for a what?? now 70? year old plane?...what my main comment was for was the humor of the grown man throwing a hissy fit infront of a couple hundred people,,,,i just thought it was funny,,,frustrating for him i know...but was funny to the crowd,,,,,again off topic...i was once in a race...broke the right front off (sprint car) and i ended up on my side in front of the grand stands....i got out..kicked the car and then bow'd at the growd....got a standing ovation...LOL

[jhefner]

Look at the wheels of the aircraft, they're not sunk axle-deep in mud. Seems to me that if the field was able to support the aircraft, the fire trucks could've made it to the scene when they first showed up. I'll be sure to get good homeowner's insurance if I ever buy a house in Oswego, in case of fire my yard might be too muddy for their trucks. :rolleyes:

Someone in a non-aviation forum made the point that "Wouldn't have mattered. They only had water in those trucks, not the right type of foam for an AVGAS fire. Wouldn't have likely mattered if they were right next to the plane as it landed."

I am not an expert on these these things, but that does make sense. I also read that the nearest airport also did not have the proper firefighting equipment.

The pilot made the right decision, and did a masterful job landing it; and I am glad that everyone is safe. It is indeed a tragic loss; along with the Goodyear Blimp crash, this has not been a good week for aviation fans.

-James

[Motormouse]

To comment to this, it is not just a regular occurance on warbirds, but almost ANY military aircraft. Everyday it is something new with the H-60's I work on. Whether it is the brand new ones having rivets backing out, engine problems, or severe avionics problems. To the older ones just getting fatigued, parts wearing out, and leaking fluid. Believe me there are days I have wanted to chuck my headset across the flight line too when you fix 1 hydraulic leak, and then another weak point gives and you start all over again. Some days the bird cooperates, and does what you want. Other days it has a mind of its own, and they are determined despite your best efforts to not get airborne. Is just the nature of the beast.

Not just military aeroplanes (I've worked mil and civil);
could happily have thrown my toolbox out last week with electrical problems
we had on a brand new Global Express!

ttfn

Pete

[Wittpilot]

The new picture on our website is even more depressing... as it was taken shortly after emerging from the airplane....

www.libertyfoundation.org (http://www.libertyfoundation.org)

[Wittpilot]

I have been reading comments left by people on all branches of the internet... There has been quite an outpouring of thanks and sorrow expressed.....Anonymity

There is, however, always one bad egg...... I'd like us all to sit and think what we would say to "David".............. Isn't there some saying about the dangers of the internet and anonymity?



David wrote on June 15, 2011 11:12 AM: Pretty sick people get torn up over a weapon that killed many innocent peoples. I fear for humanity.

[TARPSBird]

I think most of us would simply tell "David" to STFU.

[Roadburner440]

If only David could spend some time in one of those "innocent" peoples concentration camps maybe he would have a change of heart....

[robert41]

David, it is not sick at all to have respect for these old airplanes. The B17 helped to bring an end to a long and terrible war. As for humanity, do not worry, people have survived many horrible times, and we will continue to do so.

[Wittpilot]

A couple of real old ones I found... all from 2005 or 2006 I think...

[Wittpilot]

A really nice video from youtube today.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvTnDm5ZWc

[Wittpilot]

For those that are also visitors to the Wix forum... I just noticed this today... Sucky circumstances.... Listen I'm trying to find some good to this week...*other than the obvious of no one getting injured.....




Most users ever online was 206 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:14 am

[Railrunner130]

Witt,

Here's an idea for response.

While it's true that the B-17 was a machine built to kill people and destroy material, history proved that the airplane saved lives. In destroying the German war effort, it helped shorten the war, thereby saving lives.

At the end of WWII, the airplane was deemed obsolete. In doing so, this freed up the B-17 to do other things, many of which were humanitarian in nature. The SB-17 Rescue ship was born, along with the WB-17 Hurricane Hunter and the Fire Fighting version. I imagine there were some that were converted to carrying cargo and VIP variants, not to mention other variants not mentioned here. Eventually, aircraft were converted into warbirds, demonstrating a living, breathing, lesson in history. A lesson which is often forgotten and needs to be constantly retaught by many different sources including the warbird community.

So, while, yes the B-17 was designed to kill people, it only did so for a handful of years. After that, it's been so much to so many and probably saved more lives that it took. It is an incredible icon that will never be forgotten.

[Daveroo]

im so glad im not that "david",,,but im sure the majority of people dont feel the way he does do they?

[Wittpilot]

I thought I had seen enough pictures that I couldn't get quessy anymore.....

Welp, I was wrong......This one is pretty bad folks.....

Not for the faint at B-17 heart....

[Terry]

I thought I had seen enough pictures that I couldn't get quessy anymore.....

Welp, I was wrong......This one is pretty bad folks.....

Not for the faint at B-17 heart....

How is it that the recovery vehicles and crane can drive around in that field but a fire truck sinks? The really nasty part of this accident is the bomber may have been saved.

[Ickie]

I am a big fan of the B-17, and knowing all they went through, ...... I never thought a tiny fire could just melt one away. I am glad no-one was hurt and wow what a safe landing. I watched and viewed all the photos and videos, funny there was not a mention on my local Tampa TV, nor on the ABC national news.
Now is not the time to point fingers and blame others on what they did or should have done. We will all miss the Liberty Belle.

[Daveroo]

I am a big fan of the B-17, and knowing all they went through, ...... I never thought a tiny fire could just melt one away. I am glad no-one was hurt and wow what a safe landing. I watched and viewed all the photos and videos, funny there was not a mention on my local Tampa TV, nor on the ABC national news.
Now is not the time to point fingers and blame others on what they did or should have done. We will all miss the Liberty Belle.

as far as news coverage..my local news...sacramento..they gave it about 10 seconds...said a B17,the memphis belle ( yes its what they called it)crashed and burned today in iowa ( yup thats what they said) and he added that it seems to be pilot error as they were doing aerobatics at the time....i was pretty upset when i heard thati called the station and was told i was like the 50th call already to correct them..but they never mentioned it again......jerks

[Bomber_12th]

You know, when you watch the media report on most anything aviation related, at least here in the U.S., you almost can be certain that you will find error after error in what they are saying. It raises the question, how much more accurate, or skewed, is their reporting on anything else these days? My local news reported on the incident as well on Monday, and while showing video they spoke about it for 10-15 seconds, but at the end of it, you quickly realize they didn't say anything at all.

If the media had simply heard "emergency landing" in reference to the incident, all along, I wonder if they even would have bothered trying to cover it?

[Railrunner130]

as far as news coverage..my local news...sacramento..they gave it about 10 seconds...said a B17,the memphis belle ( yes its what they called it)crashed and burned today in iowa ( yup thats what they said) and he added that it seems to be pilot error as they were doing aerobatics at the time....i was pretty upset when i heard thati called the station and was told i was like the 50th call already to correct them..but they never mentioned it again......jerks

I often sit at lunch watching the local news. I'm not really sure why. I've taken the time to count the number of grammatical errors, unintelligent reports and general stupidity put forth by the local news reporters. The numbers are astounding. Mind you, this is Philly news, which is a big market and therefore can afford to hire people that can read, write and speak the english language. It makes me wonder what the truth is.

[Wittpilot]

as far as news coverage..my local news...sacramento..they gave it about 10 seconds...said a B17,the memphis belle ( yes its what they called it)crashed and burned today in iowa ( yup thats what they said) and he added that it seems to be pilot error as they were doing aerobatics at the time....i was pretty upset when i heard thati called the station and was told i was like the 50th call already to correct them..but they never mentioned it again......jerks

That makes me sick....Almost sick as this..... I am trying to finds sense in our government these days....THIS is NOT HELPING!!!!!


From the official NTSB website... Words like "crash" & "impact" are very intriquing...as neither happened!

National Transportation Safety Board
Office of Public Affairs
Press AdvisoryNTSB INVESTIGATING CRASH OF WORLD WAR II-VINTAGE B-17June 13, 2011
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating today’s crash of a B-17 (N390TH) vintage airplane. The crash occurred approximately 3-4 miles southeast of the Aurora Municipal Airport near Oswego, Illinois. It has been reported that there was an in-flight fire prior to impact. There were 7 persons on board. No injuries have been reported at this time.
NTSB investigator Tim Sorenson will be the Investigator-in- Charge and is en route to the accident scene. More information regarding the investigation will be released when it becomes available.
NTSB Media Contact:
Keith Holloway (202) 314-6100
hollowk@ntsb.gov

[Bomber_12th]

This was posted by Rod Schneider on another forum, and I thought it might be worth posting here as well. He happened to be riding back-seat in the AT-6 that was following Liberty Belle when the incident happend:

"John Hess and Bud Sittig (right seat) are true heroes!! I was in the back seat of the T-6 that was following Liberty Belle Monday morning and witnessed some of the finest flying I've ever seen. They made a perfect landing under very stressful conditions and oversaw an orderly evacuation of the plane. We circled overhead to help the fire crews pinpoint the location, only to see the lead truck get stuck on a narrow road that led near the plane. It was heartbreaking to see that nothing could be done to quickly fight the fire, but it was not for lack of trying. The most important thing is that seven folks are around today to talk about it. Thank you, Captains Hess and Sittig!"

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=550989#post550989

[Wittpilot]

Ray & Cullen in Wild Cargo in 2010 on the way to Wright Field....

[Wittpilot]

A lot of crap get said when things like this happen... I'd like to share my two fav. comments from Wix.... The first is from somebody from Tulsa, & the second is from Chuck Giese whom works down in GA for Don Brooks.... I think both comments speak volumes from the outsiders view point, and for those of us with personal interest in the plane....


Chuck,

How is the Brooks team doing? I know that we have all been thinking of you, and hoping for the best. It must be hard to see her in the state she is in, given all that you and the team have done to make her the reliable touring aircraft that she has been for the last several years. Scott Maher, a local guy for us Tulsans, always made sure to bring her to town at least once or twice a year. The last time she was here, I took my 3 year old twins out to see her. It wasn't their first time. They call her "the big airplane with the little door." My girls climbed in and out of the aft fuselage over and over, and your guys just smiled and tolerated a couple of ornery little girls. They even invited them to climb to the front to see the cockpit. The girls were in love. That airplane, whether it lives again or not, touched a lot of us in different ways. For my girls, it was the first B-17 they ever saw, the first warbird they ever climbed in, and the first group of warbird operators they encountered. The folks there could have yelled at them, told them to get away, to not touch. Instead, they invited them in. The Liberty Belle team was centered around an aircraft, but is made up of a bunch of hardworking, NICE people who did a great deal to share the story of WWII with the next generation- my girls included. I hope that the team Don assembled doesn't see this as a defeat, but just the end of the first chapter in what I hope will be a long story of their group's efforts to bring history to life.

Good luck, and please let us know as the team goes through its process what Don's plans are. No need to rush, but we will be waiting with baited breath!

kevin



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,

I've been on the road for a few days, most of my contact with the others have been quick phone calls or text msg updates. I think it's safe to say that we are all dealing with the loss in our own ways, I've spun through several stages of grief, and will continue to do so for a while. She was a good ship, and I'll miss her.

The trip has given me a lot of time to think about why we do this (and if we should do this), I'll post some thoughts when I get out the other side. I'm still a little raw right now.

Chuck

[Wittpilot]

BTW, Chuck was on Liberty Belle on Monday....

[TARPSBird]

That makes me sick....Almost sick as this..... I am trying to finds sense in our government these days....THIS is NOT HELPING!!!!!

Witt, you can call off that search. There is no sense in our government.
Keep in mind that press release was from the day of the crash and probably composed by some underling who didn't yet know what actually happened. Seems to me the actual circumstances of the incident and the details of the landing are pretty much cut and dried, except for the cause of the fire.

[n147yt]

http://www.kdvr.com/kdvr-b17-pilot-back-in-colorado-after-crash-20110616,0,5722355.story

[Wittpilot]

Well, I think that last news story pretty much seals the deal for me about the media.... They have had almost a week to get their sh*t together and still can pull the right story together.... Utterly pathetic.....

I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Sittig, but John was PIC.... Ultimately at that time it is his airplane. The article states Sittig was the pilot, John the co-pilot... I doubt Bud told the what they said. O


Oh, BTW, apparently we lost several B-17's this week as there are only 3 left now!!!!!

:angryfir:

[n4gix]

Witt, you can call off that search. There is no sense in our government.
Keep in mind that press release was from the day of the crash and probably composed by some underling who didn't yet know what actually happened. Seems to me the actual circumstances of the incident and the details of the landing are pretty much cut and dried, except for the cause of the fire.

Er, "day of the crash?" It seems ironic that in a discussion about the missapplication of that very word it continues to be abused...

I thought we'd pretty much established that it was a successful emergency landing, which was unfortunately followed closely by an uncontrollable fire.

ABC had a segment on Good Morning America this morning, including an interview with the pilot. They also showed another B-17 being privately restored, but I've already forgotten the gentleman's name. Damn this old age anyway!

[Roadburner440]

I thought the same thing Witt.. I figured there was at least somewhere around 11 flying B-17's of different blocks left flying? Either way you cannot count on the main stream media to report anything correctly...

[Wittpilot]

Er, "day of the crash?" It seems ironic that in a discussion about the missapplication of that very word it continues to be abused...

I thought we'd pretty much established that it was a successful emergency landing, which was unfortunately followed closely by an uncontrollable fire.

ABC had a segment on Good Morning America this morning, including an interview with the pilot. They also showed another B-17 being privately restored, but I've already forgotten the gentleman's name. Damn this old age anyway!


Sorry, that was kind of funny looking back.... I guess when you read it every 5 seconds for a week it just plants in your head.....

That makes me look pretty damn stupid though.......

[n4gix]

Sorry, that was kind of funny looking back.... I guess when you read it every 5 seconds for a week it just plants in your head.....

That makes me look pretty damn stupid though.......

Oh! No, that quoted phrase "day of the crash" was what TARPSBird wrote, not you! :bump:

[Wittpilot]

LOL...OH Okay... I was reading on my iPhone and just figured I had wrote that... I must admit, I have caught myself saying it to people. So I am guilty as well. I think we will here some more news early this week about our intentions on moving forward. I will post it as soon as I see it.......That is if Bomber doesn't get to it before I do!!!!!

-witt