Vertigo Studios Bearcat and Panther patches...

[Roger]

As there have been some disgruntled members concerned with the slow response from Vertigo releasing patches I decided to speak to Deano and get as much information as possible about these issues. As we all know the visuals from Vertigo are top notch but there have been other problems reported by owners of both the Panther and the Bearcat.
The coder involved with both models has unfortunately had real life issues that have kept him away from the projects and as he has the source files there's nothing Deano can do until communication is resumed. He is very concerned for his business and customers' sake to clear these issues up as soon as possible. Deano has also stated that if this situation persists for too much longer he will resolve the problems by other means if absolutely necessary.
In the meanwhile let's cut him some slack in the knowledge that he is doing everything possible to rectify the problem.

[skyhawka4m]

Thank you Roger.....the planes are awesome and I know they'll only get better ones real life gives everyone a break.

[Warrant]

As we all know the visuals from Vertigo are top notch but there have been other problems reported by owners of both the Panther and the Bearcat.

Thanks for the effort, Roger. :salute:

Regarding the quote from your post; totally agree!
The only minor thing regarding Vertigo (and a small minor it is, regarding the quality already delivered), is the poor communication regarding the estimated timeframe to release a patch. Yes, they stated all complaints are taken under consideration (which is good), but the customers are left in the dark regarding how long they have to wait. The way they treat this matter, gives me some sympathy to those who go less friendly (though values of decency should always prevail). It is not a matter of weeks or a month or two they leave customers in the blind.

For me personally, i enjoy every single minute of flight in the high quality F9F, regardless of the few errors still unresolved. But i do understand those who have paid for their product(s), and don't feel the appreciation of their problems with the models is adequate.

Nuff said about that. Hope mutual understanding will improve and many more high quality models will emerge from this very talented studio.

[Phantom88]

Thanks for the info Roger,I hope Vertigo Studios gets their situation squared away soon.

[flaviossa]

Thanks for your help on this Roger! Things are much clear now! :salute:

[Kiwikat]

I don't like this new format on SOH where you deal with our problems with developers, for what its worth. They need to be communicating with us.


Thank you for the info, however I think it would have been far more proper if Dean himself had made a statement about it. :salute:

[Deano]

We made regular updates on our forums whenever a customer asked the question. At the time I was at no liberty to discuss what is and what isnt happening behind our doors - somethings are meant to be kept behind closed doors. However in the recent grenade throwing Roger spoke to me and we discussed what was the hold up which forced my hand. And for some customers to state that we are scammer's and tell lies is damn right disgraceful.


I don't like this new format on SOH where you deal with our problems with developers, for what its worth. They need to be communicating with us.


Thank you for the info, however I think it would have been far more proper if Dean himself had made a statement about it. :salute:

[falcon409]

Thanks Roger and I hate to state the obvious here, but if Vertigo had stated what you just did from Deano, we might still have been ticked about the wait, but it would have been easier to take. Saying nothing is the wrong way to go about it. . . .or camouflaging it by saying "it's in the works" when it hasn't been touched just causes more distaste for the company when the truth is revealed. What's that old saying. . . . .Honesty is the best policy?

[Deano]

Yes the corrections was being worked on and some was corrected and the files was indeed sent out to a handful of people and the new FDE is being worked on as we speak !

Other Devs are more forthwith when it comes to hanging out dirty laundry and I am not.


Thanks Roger and I hate to state the obvious here, but if Vertigo had stated what you just did from Deano, we might still have been ticked about the wait, but it would have been easier to take. Saying nothing is the wrong way to go about it. . . .or camouflaging it by saying "it's in the works" when it hasn't been touched just causes more distaste for the company when the truth is revealed. What's that old saying. . . . .Honesty is the best policy?

[Kiwikat]

We made regular updates on our forums whenever a customer asked the question. At the time I was at no liberty to discuss what is and what isnt happening behind our doors - somethings are meant to be kept behind closed doors. However in the recent grenade throwing Roger spoke to me and we discussed what was the hold up which forced my hand. And for some customers to state that we are scammer's and tell lies is damn right disgraceful.

Thank you for making a post Dean.


A similar thing is happening over at PMDG, though people are acting like they're getting scammed and the product isn't even out yet (!). Communication is really the only way for people to understand what is going on. It is a lot easier to wait when we hear why we're waiting.

[falcon409]

Yes the corrections was being worked on and some was corrected and the files was indeed sent out to a handful of people and the new FDE is being worked on as we speak !

Other Devs are more forthwith when it comes to hanging out dirty laundry and I am not.
I don't envy the position you're in right now Deano. . . .I don't agree at all, but that's a personal opinion and it won't change yours, so I'll sit back and wait to see if the patch get's released.:salute:

[noddy]

Could be time to take a deep breath, and have a beer.

[Warrant]

We made regular updates on our forums whenever a customer asked the question. At the time I was at no liberty to discuss what is and what isnt happening behind our doors - somethings are meant to be kept behind closed doors. However in the recent grenade throwing Roger spoke to me and we discussed what was the hold up which forced my hand. And for some customers to state that we are scammer's and tell lies is damn right disgraceful.

Hi Dean, i don't think the majority of the customers accuse you or Vertigo of "scamming" anything. Vertigo has delivered high quality products so far, and will continue to do so in the future, i hope! All most customers ask as transparency. Tell them what is going on, or at least give them an honest update on progress regarding their matters (e.g. a realistic timeline regarding their product's patch), and by vendors initiative.

I know FS is a hobby. But when people start selling products for this hobby, they enter the commercial zone. This step includes the commercial "rules of engagement". From that point on, you (as a vendor) are salesmen. And when stuff does not work, they will get back to get stuff solved.

From this point on communication with the customers is vital. They will either make you or break you. It is the same in every trade.

The stuff said above is not to bash you or Vertigo. As already mentioned; i really appreciate the products made by Vertigo, regardless of their minor flaws.

But, i really hope Vertigo will prioritize their efforts to patch up already sold products first, before they release new ones. I think that wraps up most of the emotions expressed by customers gone dissapointed (though i'm not one of them. I really enjoy my F9F).

With kind regards, René

[Bone]

I really like the F9F, and it would be nice if some of the issues were fixed. However, I'm really glad Deano didn't "out" his Modeller's personal problems during the long term when the heat was on, and getting hotter. That would have been the easy way out, but not very honorable.

I've had some big arse rocks thrown at me in the past over something I couldn't talk about, and no one would have thrown anything in the first place if I could have only done that. We've all had our hands tied over something.

I've seen NG4IX resolve more model issues in a few days than the F9F currently has, so if Deano could have fixed things, then I'm sure he would have. That would have been the path of least resistance.

[Deano]

There is no "position" people either believe me or they don't If I said we will release a patch and updates then that is exactly what I'll do. If customers are upset then I'm sorry for any delays. However ! I'm no liar and stand up to my words.

[Roger]

I don't like this new format on SOH where you deal with our problems with developers, for what its worth. They need to be communicating with us.


Thank you for the info, however I think it would have been far more proper if Dean himself had made a statement about it. :salute:

You may not like it but it gets results. I will continue when time permits to engage with devs and purchasers as a go between, because it works.
I was a salesman for 34 years so I understand communication skills in business, but clearly you just expect everyone to act as your dreams expect them to. Watch and learn.

[Kiwikat]

but clearly you just expect everyone to act as your dreams expect them to.

Was that really necessary? :blind:



I expect them to act like the other developers who have great customer relations. Warrant's recent post was perfect. Could have ended the thread there. :wavey:

[Roger]

Was that really necessary? :blind:



I expect them to act like the other developers who have great customer relations. Warrant's recent post was perfect. Could have ended the thread there. :wavey:

So why didn't you take your own advice and leave it there?

These "businesses" are cottage industries who don't have customer relations departments.

[roger-wilco-66]

Could be time to take a deep breath, and have a beer.

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cheers :ernae:,
Mark

[Warrant]

:jump:
Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cheers :ernae:,
Mark

A very nice and cold served one! :ernae::icon29::guinness:

Pick your taste (draft, bottle....up to you :jump:).

Cheers people.

[Scratch]

Ain't gonna lose this customer. My expectations have always been exceeded by the products I have purchased from this company.

[pbearsailor]

Ain't gonna lose this customer. My expectations have always been exceeded by the products I have purchased from this company.

Yep, me too! :applause:

Don't think any developer owes us instant communication or knowledge about what is going on within his company. Deano delivers a quality product every time, usually with minor issues. I'm sure he'll get the patches done. I can wait.

-steve :wavey:

[Blue]

You may not like it but it gets results. I will continue when time permits to engage with devs and purchasers as a go between, because it works.
I was a salesman for 34 years so I understand communication skills in business, but clearly you just expect everyone to act as your dreams expect them to. Watch and learn.

Roger with all due respect I have to agree with Kiwikat here. If you were in sales for 34 years then you should know that putting yourself between a company that currently is doing a poor job delivering on it's promises (in this case a correctly functioning product) and it's customers is not a good idea. I agree with KiwiKat. Thanks for the information but it wasn't anything Deano couldn't have told his paying customers a long time ago. Obviously because he is hard at work doing damage control in this thread now.

My personal issue with Vertigo Studios on this matter is when both of these aircraft were launched there was plenty of communication on this forum. As soon as the problems started getting reported and the waiting for a patch started getting more and more drawn out that communication dropped off considerably. Now Deano, drops in here to state that there has been plenty of updates all along..on the VS forum. That to me strikes of arrogance. You will come here and jolly it up when you have something to sell but when things are not going too swell you are no where to be seen. If this is a major outlet for revenue generation then it should have also been a place to drop by and give an update or two when you see the natives getting restless. An administrator shouldn't have to bird dog to find out what is going on. Maybe in the future it will help avoid this sort of thing. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[c87]

No problems losing this customer either. I've been very happy with Vertigo products. Perhaps we all take this stuff a bit too seriously. I think the advice to let this topic cool off is a good one.

[skyhawka4m]

I'm forever a customer

[ColoKent]

....a very pleased customer as well.

Kent

[icycle]

I can say that I too, am pleased as a customer.

Vertigo will get its products sorted & patched. Probably not as rapidly as THEY would like, and we'll all move on to the next controversy :icon_lol:

By the way, did somebody mention a beer? (after-all, the world DID NOT end today as predicted :applause:).

Bill

[dharris]

There is no "position" people either believe me or they don't If I said we will release a patch and updates then that is exactly what I'll do. If customers are upset then I'm sorry for any delays. However ! I'm no liar and stand up to my words.

If you can look at for a moment from the perspective that most people that purchased the f9f do not have prior experience with you or your company, I think that because of keeping us in the dark, while maybe honorable in your eyes, in the consumers eye, he has to look at past experience with other devs. I have been promised updates in the past from others and never received said update, so not knowing you personally, I have no way to ascertain that you will in fact deliver. I think the f9f is a very nice product with a few minor concerns, not enough to preclude your company from my business in the future, but communications with your public, to me is essential for me to access future business. I am aware that this is a "cottage" industry, but it is still a business, you have a product that you make statements about, and we decide to buy on those same statements. Reputation is extremely important, I will seek out info before I buy anything, and I check the forums if available. When I see statements about updates going on and on, I have to wonder if the company can and will deliver. I for one have been burned more than once by products that were released with obvious problems and never been corrected. There are devs here that I have had contact with and would recommend to any and all just on their openness and customer service. I applaud your convictions but as a consumer, I think after purchase, you have my money, I have a product that, while very good, could be better. I had asked on your forum for updates and was told we would all get emails when completed. An occasional message on the forum say once a month would let us know you are still around. Don't take this as a personal attack as it is not meant in anyway to do that, but to try to let you see the other side of the coin. Will wait some more now that I know what is going on. Thank your for your honesty. Don

[falcon409]

Well said dharris. The one thing that it seems everyone agrees on is that "communicating" the current status of the patch(s) should have been key. I find the fact that the "coders" inability to press on with the patches due to personal reason was certainly legitimate (everyone falls into a similar category from time to time). However, to think that it was so personal that it shut down communicating "something" to the customers is ridiculous. All Vertigo had to do was put out a statement saying. . . .Notice to all customers awaiting the patches for the F8 and F-9 aircraft: Currently our coder is away due to family concerns. As he has complete control over the remaining code to complete the patches we must put the releases on hold until he returns. We regret the inconvenience but we are sure our loyal customers will understand the need to be with family at critical times and we will give further updates as soon as we have new information". Thank you for your patience.

Seems pretty simple to me. . .nothing so personal that it compromises anyone's privacy but also gives a true response to normal concerns from customers waiting for a promised update.:salute:

[Blue]

Well said dharris. The one thing that it seems everyone agrees on is that "communicating" the current status of the patch(s) should have been key. I find the fact that the "coders" inability to press on with the patches due to personal reason was certainly legitimate (everyone falls into a similar category from time to time). However, to think that it was so personal that it shut down communicating "something" to the customers is ridiculous. All Vertigo had to do was put out a statement saying. . . .Notice to all customers awaiting the patches for the F8 and F-9 aircraft: Currently our coder is away due to family concerns. As he has complete control over the remaining code to complete the patches we must put the releases on hold until he returns. We regret the inconvenience but we are sure our loyal customers will understand the need to be with family at critical times and we will give further updates as soon as we have new information". Thank you for your patience.

Seems pretty simple to me. . .nothing so personal that it compromises anyone's privacy but also gives a true response to normal concerns from customers waiting for a promised update.:salute:

This. +100,000

[Sayuuk]

Well said dharris. The one thing that it seems everyone agrees on is that "communicating" the current status of the patch(s) should have been key. I find the fact that the "coders" inability to press on with the patches due to personal reason was certainly legitimate (everyone falls into a similar category from time to time). However, to think that it was so personal that it shut down communicating "something" to the customers is ridiculous. All Vertigo had to do was put out a statement saying. . . .Notice to all customers awaiting the patches for the F8 and F-9 aircraft: Currently our coder is away due to family concerns. As he has complete control over the remaining code to complete the patches we must put the releases on hold until he returns. We regret the inconvenience but we are sure our loyal customers will understand the need to be with family at critical times and we will give further updates as soon as we have new information". Thank you for your patience.

Seems pretty simple to me. . .nothing so personal that it compromises anyone's privacy but also gives a true response to normal concerns from customers waiting for a promised update.:salute:

Thanks guys, at last this is getting somewhere we can all agree on =)


@Deano:

I can only stress the last few posts above.

F8F: Great visual model, awesome VC (among the best in the industry!!!!!!!), only those issues ruin it for me.

Now I know Real Life can sometimes kick you in the nuts, and I know that family of course is more important than professional life.

I also understand that you want to protect what happens on the private front in your company, but simply not telling people about the situation was a bad idea.
I don't need to know what exactly is going on, but I need to know that there is "something" going on that explains this kind of a delay!!

And I know you are "pi**ed" that I called you a liar and I would like to believe that you stand to your word. But - as mentioned above - that trust fades over time, and 6 months is just too much of that...

With the information we have right now, we know that it isn't exactly "under your control", but before I learned about it, I had only one conclusion I could draw from this...




I really hope you can get this sorted out (I'm not talking about the F8F/F9F patches now - as that seems to be a whole other situation on the personnel side), because your models (even though I'm disappointed by the bugs in those specific models, but put that aside for now) show great talent and I think with another approach at communicating with your customers, you'll have a lot of success!

For example: if the DC3/C-47 looks as good as the F8F/F9F and with the most used systems integrated and - without any A2A-like engine simulation - simply works, I'll definitely look at it closely!!!




I think you've gotten on the wrong foot with some people (including me) and I believe (considering what we just learned about the code-control-situation) that there is no sense in continuing to blame anyone.





=> I really hope you decide to take some of the statements regarding costumer relations seriously and work out the issue with your programmer and get on making nice planes.


Cheers,
Stefan

[LouP]

Don't worry, be happy. Some people are being way too uptight IMHO.

1.) It's a hobby/game/sim, not life or death.

2.) The alternative is to have NO Bearcat or Panther.

3.) See #1 and repeat.

Have a great week All,
LouP

[ColoKent]

....for those who are as unhappy with VS and Deano's approach to getting these patches out is to simply not buy any more VS products.

That way they will be able to put this "trauma" behind them, and they will never have to worry about VS again.

The bottom line is that no more melodramatic justifications about how outraged people are is going to change this situation-- everyone knows the patch has taken longer than planned. Everyone said it would have been nice to have more frequent comm on this-- got it. Sniping isn't going to change what has already happened.

It's like the poster above said: "It's a game". :salute:

Kent

[Sayuuk]

Don't worry, be happy. Some people are being way too uptight IMHO.

1.) It's a hobby/game/sim, not life or death.

2.) The alternative is to have NO Bearcat or Panther.

@1: if it was a free game, I would agree... ;-)

@2: that would be the alternative if I hadn't already bought it...


....for those who are as unhappy with VS and Deano's approach to getting these patches out is to simply not buy any more VS products.

Kent

That's like saying "oh, my BMW doesn't work... - oh well, let's buy a Dodge then..."


Again, I know VS is a small company and I think I've explained myself above, but as soon as you start to sell what you are creating as a hobby, you've got quite a few obligations - including customer support.


There's simply now way to justify saying "hmm, aha... just don't buy anymore from him..."

The F8F / F9F are sold for 17GBP. It's not like this is a 5$ plane...
And while it isn't that much, I think it is enough to justify being more than a little annoyed... especially after waiting for half a year for a patch...


As much as I understand your compassion for a small development company, it is simply a fact that as soon as you go commercial, you cross a line, and there's no turning back!

[ColoKent]

...It's not that I have a "passion for small development companies", I just like Vertigo's F8F and F9F...imperfections and all.

If you are dissatisfied with their products, that's cool-- you have the option to quit buying them.

That said, I now recognize that no answer will satisfy you. I sincerely hope you eventually find the "happy place" you are seeking.

Regards,

Kent

[skyblazer3]

Dear Sim-Outhouse Members,

I began this thread a few days ago, simply wondering what had become of the VS forums after I went over there and found them missing.

I really think that enough ink has been spilled on this issue.

There are some of us who are satisfied with what VS has put out, and some of us who feel that we bought a lemon, but that the problems with VS's products are not structural -- and that they can be fixed with a patch. Some of us will continue to buy from VS, and some of us will only continue to buy from VS after our current products are patched..... that is fair enough.

I really want to thank the SOH administrator who served as a "go-between" for customers. My initial thread was removed for good reason because of some apparent hostility (that I never read first hand). In that thread, I simply asked if anyone knew what was going on over at VS in regards to their forums and patches. I'm glad that we got that resolved.

We can all appreciate people's problems on a personal level -- we are all linked by our shared humanity, and by our love for aviation -- both in regards to the flying machines and the experience of manned flight. I'm thankful that we now know why Vertigo Studios has been delayed so long in the patch -- and I am now willing to give them as long as they need to get the problem fixed without complaining. (I've been waiting for a Native FSX F-86 from SectionF8 for 3 years, and I'll wait until hell freezes over).

Personally, I probably won't buy another product from Vertigo until the current ones are patched, but that is my personal preference and not anyone's business. But to be honest, can I really turn down a FSX Native T-33 when it comes out? probably not.

I encourage everyone to support VS -- they are making some good aircraft at a level beyond what most of the rest of us can produce. Their visual models and sounds are top shelf, as is their taste in aircraft. I am told that until the F8F/F9F their coding and flight dynamics were also very good.

If you are not interested in flying these aircraft in multiplayer formation aerobatics, or in IFR conditions with multiplayer ATC, then they will probably be a great VFR aircraft to put around in.... but don't expect any radio navigation. However, if VFR flight in warbirds is for you, you can't go wrong with these aircraft. I hope that a future patch will add some NDB functionality, realistic flight dynamics and fix other minor problems.

I think this is a company with great potential, and as much as I would like to have had a fully functioning product within 6 months of release, I trust that we will eventually be satisfied. After all, in my opinion, these guys are producing the most interesting aircraft in FSX.

Thank you to everyone for helping me answer the question about what happened to the VS forums and what is going on with the patch. I really appreciate the information.

Sim Outhouse is a very comfortable place for me to learn about the FSX world and what is going on with developers and modders. I'm really glad that we have such a beautiful hobby, and I want to say that I appreciate each of you for your talents and abilities. I understand that our patience gets worn thin when we have spent hard earned dollars on a product -- but I'm also glad we can be understanding with one another and support and teach one another. I've learned so much from you guys.

See you in the skies,

Chris Eells

P.S......

@Vertigo Studios, I will be your biggest cheerleader if you do us the honor of making a clean F-100C. :)

[roger-wilco-66]

Well said, Chris.

Although - I won't wait for patches: when the Avenger, the C-47, the B-25 come out I'll be a sure cutomer :-)

:ernae:
Cheers,
Mark

[ColoKent]

Chris-- you hit the nail squarely on the head. I will continue to buy VS products as well.

Kent

[mal998]

If somebody called me a liar, I sure as hell would be pissed.
What some here don't realize; there is a real live person with real live feelings who is bearing the brunt of all this so-called-for-your-own-good "friendly" criticism.

He must feel as though he is being assaulted by all of these opinions and directives and "what I would do if I were you" statements.

I can only imagine if I was in his shoes (I'm not) what my reaction would be after now having read 3 pages of this "if only you had told us" lecturing. It has got to be pretty demoralizing.

All I can say is I hope he continues to produce some of the best sim aircraft that 've seen to date. But if he decides to say "****** it" this ain't worth this kind of s*** to go through, I for one, will understand.

[LouP]

I think that some are missing my point two here. My intent was to remind you that the VS creators could just say the h&@* with it and call it quits to an ungrateful audience. Where would you get your F9 then? Anyone here remember a company called Dreamfleet? I am not saying any threats as such have been made or even hinted at, all I am saying is that I, myself, am glad I have the option to purchase a quality Bearcat.

This will be my last post to this silly thread. While I appreciate the intent of the original post, the rest of it has become very childesh. Go outside and take a hike, :running: go ride a four wheeler, :jeep0a: go play some hockey, :bump:life's good, :wiggle: do anything besides sit at the keyboard all day. :173go1:

LouP :wavey:

[Lateral-G]

Thanks Roger and I hate to state the obvious here, but if Vertigo had stated what you just did from Deano, we might still have been ticked about the wait, but it would have been easier to take. Saying nothing is the wrong way to go about it. . . .or camouflaging it by saying "it's in the works" when it hasn't been touched just causes more distaste for the company when the truth is revealed. What's that old saying. . . . .Honesty is the best policy?

+1

Have to agree with Falcon here. If VS just communicated with their customers then all the negative, mud-slinging posts could have been avoided.

Lack of information and being ignored only lead to bad feelings and animosity.

Communication is the key.....

[wombat666]

Enough!!
The original intent of this thread was to attempt to bring some rational discussion to a difficult subject.
Play nice or not at all.
:isadizzy:

[warchild]

I think this has done about as much good as it could do, and its now going downhill real fast... I should have closed it a few hours ago before bed, but i hoped for better.. No matter.. The thread is closed now..
Pam