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hawkeye52
May 19th, 2011, 20:42
I have just installed Wolfi's excellent SB2C Helldiver and aliased it to Lawdog's F8F Bearcat Sound.

I have AlphaSim's Bearcat with its sound also aliased to Lawdog's F8F Bearcat Sound.

The Helldiver's engine sounds like it is stuck in idle; it barely changes as the throttle is varied.
The Bearcat's engine responds perfectly to throttle changes.

I was baffled by this until a Readme! Readme! in Nigel's Centaurus sound pack provided a clue: Nigel asks that certain changes be made in the [piston engine] section of the aircraft CFG. I plugged the Bearcat's values into the Helldiver and voilá.

The implication is that sound packs are tailored to aircraft--or is it the other way? Is there a guide to HOW this should be done?

- h52

OBIO
May 19th, 2011, 23:11
hawkeye

Some folks will produce a sound pack for a particular aircraft, but that does not mean that that sound pack can only be used for THAT aircraft. Sound packs can not really be tailored for one specific aircraft. There is too much missing from the physics of FS9 to allow aircraft specific sound packs.

The entry you mentioned is found in Record 505 called Engine CFS+ Piston Engine, specifically the *Engine Power Sound Level? (HP). This entry dictates at what horsepower the sim will play the highest RPM sound in a sound pack. If this setting is set too high, then the higher RPM sounds will not play. If this setting is too low, then the high RPM sounds will play far too soon. I have worked on planes with the Engine Power Sound Level set for rediculously high HP levels.....say 20,000 HP on an engine that only produces 850 HP. In that configuration, the only sound you will hear is the pilot adjusting his mirrors LOL! I have also worked on planes with such a low HP setting that the sim called up the highest RPM sound files while the engine was idling.

I don't know of a rule of thumb for setting the Engine Power Sound Level? (HP) level. When I encounter a plane with this setting set way out of line, then I do trial and error until I reach a point that will have all RPM/Power sound files playing in an acceptable manner. I usually start at a HP level that is 90% of the max rated HP of the engine and adjust up or down until I reach a point that I am happy with. One a 1000 HP engine, I would start at 900 HP as the Engine Power Sound Level setting, test the plane with the selected sound pack. If the highest RPM sounds kick in too soon, I raise the 900HP level up some. If the highest RPM sounds fail to kick in properly, I lower the setting and test again.

OBIO

Desert Rat
May 20th, 2011, 11:19
Thanks for the explanation Obio, have always wondered about this anomaly. Now I know. Gonna add this to my snippets of wisdom file.

:ernae:
Jamie

hairyspin
May 20th, 2011, 13:40
Thanks from me too, Obio! :ernae:

smilo
May 20th, 2011, 18:28
good one, thanks from me, too.

maybe this should be moved up
to the Tips and Tweaks area,
so it doesn't get buried.

Tom Clayton
May 20th, 2011, 20:23
Not a bad idea!

hawkeye52
May 21st, 2011, 17:38
OBIO, thanks for your reply.

I'm guessing the "Record 505" you mention is in the AirFile; I haven't had a chance to check it yet. Damned RL keeps getting in the way of my simming! :icon_lol:

- H52

napamule
August 10th, 2011, 08:16
Section 505 is 'CFS Piston Engine'. Not all piston engines have this section. The default FS9 Mooney Bravo does. The Lear (of course) does not. So the sim uses engine parameters from the cfg engine section, and/or section 1501, I suppose. Will have to do some trial & error to find out (there went my weekend, thanks to smartie-pants Obio - hehe). But the sound wav files (and sound.cfg) for that model must set SOME of the 'total' loudness. I am afraid there might be a dozen different combinations possible for 'each' type of engine.

The same aircraft using 2 different sound sets will sound different if the wav (and format of config) are different. I have a set for F-104, made by Eric Cantu that on the Harrier sounds loud, but produces good change with rpm. Best example for this I have seen (heard?).
Chuck B
Napamue

mikezola
August 11th, 2011, 22:00
Chuck, do you use Aircraft Airfile Manager? Whoever wrote the definitions for the air file entries in that utility pretty much came to the same conclusion as Obio regarding the horsepower entry and its relation to the sound...
Mike Z.

napamule
August 13th, 2011, 01:04
Mike,
I ONLY use AirEd version 142. I never have used V.152 as it's layout/section headings are confusing. I keep FIXING AirWrench cfgs, but never used that or Aircraft Air File Manager (whatever that is-is it word processing?). I hammer out my air files to match the cfg and vice-versa. (And don't tell me that the air file does nothing. It in fact does PLENTY-couldn't tweak sim FDEs without it.)

And as far as Section 505 and sound being 'set' by HP. I do believe that there are other factors that comprise 'HP' in piston engines, like Displacement+# of Cyls+torque+etc. So it's 'HP DEVELOPED' (emphasis on 'DEVELOPED'). Not just 'HP' (ie: a number). That's my take on that. Correct me if I'm wrong (hehe). So where do the 'Air File Mgr' type progs get their info from (to 'set' HP) and how does it plug that info into the air file? If I enter the HP, will it adjust the other parameters or ...(well you know where I am going-it CAN'T). Puff. Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule

OBIO
August 13th, 2011, 10:34
Section 505, specifically the *Engine Power Sound Level? (HP) entry, does not set the HP of the engines, it simply dictates at what HP level the sim begins to play the highest RPM sounds. The actual HP of the engines are set by other areas of the config and/or air file (Compression ratio, number of cylinders, cylinder bore, RPM, turbo/super charging). That is all that the *Engine Power Sound Level? (HP) entry does...it does not dictate the loudness of the sounds played (that is dictated within the sound.cfg file), it does not dictate the speed at which the sounds are played (that too is dictated within the sound.cfg file), it does not dictate the transition from one RPM sound to the next (sound.cfg file once again).

OBIO

napamule
August 13th, 2011, 17:31
Ok. Now I get it.

Then there is this (ie: aircraft.cfg (piston_engine) changes)? (see quote below).

Quote: ''The Helldiver's engine sounds like it is stuck in idle; it barely changes as the throttle is varied. The Bearcat's engine responds perfectly to throttle changes.

I was baffled by this until a Readme! Readme! in Nigel's Centaurus sound pack provided a clue: Nigel asks that certain changes be made in the [piston engine] section of the aircraft CFG. I plugged the Bearcat's values into the Helldiver and voilá.'' (What is the explanation for this one? Luck?).

It (cfg changes) obviously had an effect on THE sound, even if he did nothing to the sound.cfg. Start over? (hehe). It's an interesting subject. I always wondered how the sound cfg FORMAT (ie: as used for/by FS98/CFS/FS2K/FS2k2/FS9/FSX and according to the specific SDK) influenced the sound characteristics when used in a different Sim and/or diffeent model. I have even used FS98 sound in FS9 and it sounded good. And all of my add-on 'jet' engine planes use Eric's F104 sounds. And for vehicle sounds I use the Jenny or Vimy sound set (copy over) and they sound good. What I am relating (I hope) is that I am not afraid to 'mix-n-match' different sound sets for different models. I experiment all the time. But I never mess with the sound.cfg (other to use 'silence.wav' for roll, etc). And I never adjusted 'HP' to change/fix sound. If it don't 'work' I just go get another sound set (hehe).
Chuck B
Napamule

mikezola
August 14th, 2011, 15:34
Mike,
I ONLY use AirEd version 142. I never have used V.152 as it's layout/section headings are confusing. I keep FIXING AirWrench cfgs, but never used that or Aircraft Air File Manager (whatever that is-is it word processing?). I hammer out my air files to match the cfg and vice-versa. (And don't tell me that the air file does nothing. It in fact does PLENTY-couldn't tweak sim FDEs without it.)

And as far as Section 505 and sound being 'set' by HP. I do believe that there are other factors that comprise 'HP' in piston engines, like Displacement+# of Cyls+torque+etc. So it's 'HP DEVELOPED' (emphasis on 'DEVELOPED'). Not just 'HP' (ie: a number). That's my take on that. Correct me if I'm wrong (hehe). So where do the 'Air File Mgr' type progs get their info from (to 'set' HP) and how does it plug that info into the air file? If I enter the HP, will it adjust the other parameters or ...(well you know where I am going-it CAN'T). Puff. Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule

Chuck- For the most part, I used only AirEd 142 until I got turned on to Aircraft Airfile Manager. It's just a better, more complete editor for air files- a lot of the entries that AirEd shows as 'unknown' are defined and explained in AAM. Also, AAM enables you to change response curve tables, which I could never figure out how to do in AirEd.
As far as not needing air files- NO WAY would I tell you or anybody that they aren't needed- but I would expand on what Obio said about the changing roles of the air and the cfg files. It seems to me that over time, the flight sims depend less on the air files and more on the aircraft.cfg for their FDE information. Take a look at how little info is in a cfg file from a stock CFS2 aircraft.cfg, for instance, compared to one from FS2004 or FSX. Also, when you look at a lot of entries using AAM, the notes for the entry will tell you things like 'Not used since FS2000', 'Not used since FS2004','these values now found in aircraft.cfg', etc. Instead of making a cfg file match an air file, though, I often save myself lots of grief when I swap out FDE files by swapping them as matched sets from similar aircraft, then start tweaking points and things.
For instance, your take on Section 505 is just about spot-on to what AAM says about it. AAM doesn't generate a HP value any more than AirEd does... their notes say that the engine's actual power output is a function of the other params like you describe,and they figured that the value titled 'max_horsepower' has more influence on the sound than anything else.
Anyhow, I really reccommend finding a copy of AAM and checking it out- I'd bet cash money that you would find it as handy as I do... besides, us 'mechanics' gotta stick together...:salute:

-Mike

napamule
August 14th, 2011, 17:17
Mike,
Well to give you an idea of my 'background' concerning my 'experience' with flight dynamics.. My father (now passed) was an aircraft mechanic on a carrier in the Navy (1945). Then is when I started with 'dynamics'. Build model planes (balsa wood). Then along with 2 cousins (they had more money-my uncle was a plumber) I did some engine driven, wire 'control' (circles) bigger planes (1950's). In 1960 my cousins joined the Air Force and became jet pilots, and then instructors. I went to Electonics School (Biloxi) and became a 'Radio-Radar Repairman'. I went to Las Vegas AFS (Angel's Peak) and worked on height finder that tracked the X-15 (and some UFO's?-Mums The Word-hehe-I could 'see' Area 51 and saw (live) the last atmospheric A-Bomb from there. I then went to Tech School and got a job (night shift) at Hunter Liggett (for the Army) in the 70's. The radar ($8 million) was a tracking radar used to track helicopters (at night) doing 'missions' as training for Vietnam. So even if I have some technical training and no 'hands on' flying, I understand the terminology in air files. It's some 'head work' and not all mechanics (although I sometimes DO use 'a bigger hammer' (and trial and error) to come up with a value for parameters. I'll give you some examples later.

So, been doing FDEs since FS98, mostly because of my interest in vehicles. It took me 4 years (2002-2006) of intense trial & error to perfect the vehicle dynamics. They are not available as there are pirates that would use to sell models and none of the modelers want to go 'halfers' with me, so I keep them to myself. That would be Jessy Corrales and Dirk Stuck. When I did not 'give' Dirk the dynamics for his F1 race cars he BANNED me from his site even tho I never even went there and did not know it exsisted until a simmer informed me of this 'action'. That took care of Dirk. Jessy said he would learn how. It's been 9 years and still nothing from him. I can wait.

I did mostly General Aviation and maybe one 747 in all sims (FS98-FSX). That's it. Then this year I came here to SOH and am now into War Birds. And I am well aware of the various air file 'editors/managers/design' tools. Except I don't 'do' payware.

So I am not just some 'fool' that just started into dynamics for the sims. But, I am still learning. Like this 'HP' setting the sound volume. Everyday I learn something. And I read (and re-read) the air file ini info. Have it printed out. Keep it handy. Sometimes I ponder on a point/parameter/value (for days) until my head hurts and the next day I do it again. So, in the final analysis (emphais on 'anal') I guess I am a complete FDE nut. Tomorrow I wll JUST fly. (Yeah, right). Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule