Need Your Help With Carrier Work

[dougal]

Hi Guys

Gonna throw myself completely at your mercy here... I need MUCHO help & advice regarding carriers in FSX Acelleration. I've decided it's time to try something new in FSX as it feels a little stale just now.

So, being as I have some great addons, I thought carriers might just be the answer.

Although I've been simming for nearly 10 years, I've never seriously tried my hand with carriers and jets.

I just tried a number of landings and COMPLETELY botched them all!

Basically, I'm looking for ALL & ANY advice you guys can give, no matter how simplistic you think it might be. Anything and everything, from approach speeds and AoD, to the best aircraft to use for practice.

I have AI Carriers installed and Javier's wonderful Nimitz. I also have Dino's Goshawk & F14. I have the new Wilco Harrier and one or two other jet fighters etc.

I also have the stunning VRS F/A-18 Superbug, but so far can only just about fly the thing.

Gimmi data, gimmi data, gimmi info.......please:jump:

[Stefano Zibell]

Speed depends on the weight. The correct AoA is indicated by the ember light on the left side of your HUD. You also need to keep an eye on "the ball", the tutorial in fsx should teach you that. You also and absolutely need to read the manuals, as different aircraft require different landing configurations, such as airbrakes deployed or canopy open. If you are still overweight you can either dump fuel or completely ignore the ball, fly a longer descent and risk a cable snap (wich will never happen in FSX).

[mjrhealth]

practice, practice and more practice.Now that my machine can run nice and smooth i can actually do 3 out of 3 touch and goes. Dinos 35 is god start. There are tutorials out there in video format , which fill in the gaps. Around 140 kts is the usual speed. Getting the coordination right is the hardest. Throttle to control decent rate,pitch to control speed, its sort of back to front, also good to have speed brake deployed, it keep the engine at higher throttle input. which is a good thing as the engine spools faster, which is needed when you touch down. it also help control sudden speed burst when you throttle up . Main thing you shouldnt be higher the 900 ft, when you start your decent, remember deck is angled so approach from right side and adjust to keep plane lined up with deck with smal adjustments. The little circle in your HUD is should be where you want the plane to touch down. Andthere is also some better sounds for dinos lane and some mods for the HUD as well as some improvements for the default f15 and dont forget
http://royalefrenchnavy.gratisim.fr/FSX_Projets.htm

[falcon409]

For additional assistance, I put a document together with some helpful info and uploaded it to our download center some time ago.:salute:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?catid=4

[crashaz]

Great read Falcon!

Since I have been building carriers since 2002 I have had the opportunity to trap aboard many a time while testing said carriers. We should create a badge for that:icon_lol:!

[dougal]

Some SUPER stuff there. Thanks, a great start for me.

I've cleared all weather to start with too. Makes things soooooo much easier:jump:

[PRB]

Make sure you have wind over the deck, 20 knots or so. That helps a lot. Or make the ship go fast...

[fallenphoenix1986]

If youre just getting into carriers then the Zephyr and Clemenceau might be a good place to start. The readme comes with a tutorial specific to the Zephyr giving you altitudes, speeds, turn points in relation to the ship and bank angles that will set you up on the centreline of the angle every time. Get the hang of that and maybey move onto the Etendard. Once you can put down on the little french boats the Nimitz class seems like LAX.
Just started doing night CarQuals on the Arky Royal with the Sea Vixen a few days ago, whole new ball game, much much harder, but fun. Maybey give it a go when you have a few dozen day traps down.

Craig

[delta_lima]

A few more thoughts ....

A. Fuel weight. I never enter the pattern with more than 20% fuel. Makes a massive difference on most planes where fuel is a high % of overall weight.

B. The FSX tutorial is fine ... but do any naval air arms CARQUAL their budding nuggets on their fleet fighter right away? Same for the FS world. I can't count the number of posts people have made about why they struggle landing a particular fast fighter - FS9, FSX, SFP1, CFS2, etc. If you want to get good, emulate the real world training syllabuses. Walk before you run. We used to say in the military: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Ready? Here goes.

1. Forget about the carrier - concentrate on being able to touch down at a precise spot (the piano keys or the numbers) at a precise speed, at a precise vertical speed on a training base. "That's boring - I want to fly on carriers". Patience, young Paduan(s) ... the pattern distances and heights are easier to gauge over an airfield ... make that second nature, and it'll be that much easier when you're over open water with few, if any reference points.

2. Forget about the fighters - There are a number of superb trainers out there: Dino's T-45, the Restauravia Zephyr. Other great starter planes for carrier ops are AS or Conrad Trojans, or the Conrad Skyraider. In fact, the best I've recently tried is Rob Richardson's Fairey Gannet. That rotund little lassie is so tame, she can make ANY sim pilot look good on landing. Think about that ... Planes with low wing loading, low touchdown speeds, and generally forgiving flight characteristics allow you to get comfortable with skills you'll need for fast jets. Practice until you can land at least 10 consecutive times exactly on those keys or numbers.

3. Once you get good with trainers on bases, THEN start doing circuits on the fast jet(s) of your choice on the base. Make sure you can do the above touchdowns perfect and repeatedly (10-20 consecutive times at least).

4. Now set up the boat. As has been indicated, real life conditions ususally involve a headwind - dial that into your weather. Even 20kts is a big help. Next make your boat move. Those stationary boats of FS9 are history. You've invested in FSX - use it to its max. Get those boats moving, as mentioned, into the wind. So, if your boat is moving at approx 20 kts, and your headwind is 20 kts - you now have a "free" 40kt bonus in your kitty. If your fancy is the F/A-18, with a landing speed of approx 135 kts, that makes your velocity differential (a/c versus boat) only 95 kts - or the equivalent of flying an aircraft that touches down at 95 kts onto a stationary, windless runway. Aaaahhh now you see yet another virtue of having practiced in a slower plane.

To illustrate the above, check this F/A-18 landing video. Notice the speed on his hud after touchdown is 48 kts. So from the pitot tube's point of view, the plane is flying through the air at 48 kts. That means there is a combination of headwind and carrier speed (likely around 23kts and 25kts respectively) helping him out as he landed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSyKEx0BEA

I personally find the F/A-18 reasonably straight forward to land in FS - among the worst are the Phantoms - even higher landing speeds (near 150kts). Think about that - on carriers just over half the size of the Nimitz.

So you have a choice. You could spend 4 straight nights trying to wrestle the F/A-18 to the boat through sheer willpower and happenstance - or you could spend 2 nights doing trainer at field training, and 2 nights doing fighter at field training. I guarantee you you'll be far more competent by the start of the 5th night if you do a structured training programme.

"Too structured - I just want to have fun" - Well, you can struggle and suck, or you can be methodical and get good - and have fun. Your call.

Happy Landings,

dl

[lazarus]

The Alpha T-28C and the Gannet AS6 are the bees knees for training!

[Stefano Zibell]

Get the sludge hornet. Seriously, that autoflap thing on the default one is such a pain and it makes your landing speeds higher AND is unrealistic. The default F-18 also has a wierd "nose down" stance on the ground that would probably prevent the thing from taking off in real life.

[AndyE1976]

Weight seems to be the key to a successful landing, if you're over the maximum landing weight even a seemingly successful trap can end with the plane in pieces.

Next is speed and AoA. The right AoA will be indicated by the lights by the HUD. A good approach is a balance between speed, AoA and pitch. As previously mentioned the typical landing speed is around 140kts, although I think the A7 is around 170kts.

The Harrier is dead easy, just approach at the side of the carrier, transition to a hover, side step over the deck and reduce throttle to descend to the deck. When you're a few feet above the deck close the throttle to avoid moving forwards when you touch down.

Carrier stuff is great fun and one of the few things in FSX that doesn't tolerate too much inaccuracy.

[peter12213]

Easiest way is to stick to the Default F18, pretty much all us FAA / USN enthusiasts are right now flying lengthy sorties in Shar1's then landing vertically on the ARK or similar, best way is don't do the Accel tutorials, get Aicarriers and litterally follow the simple rule ... Call the BALL, keep the light centered and land at 125/30kts thats a good speed for all jets in fsx!!!!! One major bug bare of mine is seeing people nosing over when trapping, pisses me off so much that especially on youtube when "they" claim it to be a textbook landing!!

Forgot to say 20% max fuel load too!

[peter12213]

The Harrier is dead easy, just approach at the side of the carrier, transition to a hover, side step over the deck and reduce throttle to descend to the deck. When you're a few feet above the deck close the throttle to avoid moving forwards when you touch down.

you tried that with a moving carrier namely the UKMIL Ark Royal? try doing it on that and hitting the centre line mate!!!

[heywooood]

so much good advice...

reducing the aircraft fuel and armament (if it has it) weight is key...

I practiced with the Carenado Mentor but the free T-28 from AH is good too

Then I moved into Dino's Goshawk

start with clear air no wind and make sure you have the carrier moving forward...

Getting Tims Skyraider aboard is fun too - low fuel weight is key no matter what you want to trap with

for more fun - try the getting the helo's down on the Patuxent

[Rich]

peter12213, you said

"One major bug bare of mine is seeing people nosing over when trapping, pisses me off so much that especially on youtube when "they" claim it to be a textbook landing!!"

Taildraggers I can understand but trike gear jets

[Rich]

heywooood, I think it was you I passed tailhook settings to for Piglets Skyraider, check tailhook position is

tailhook_position =-25.54, 0.0, -0.42

and not

tailhook_position =-25.54, -3.0, -0.42

which has the tailhook off center, the -3.0 is where I had my nav light marker outside the fuselage where I cold see it, sorry just noticed it while doing something else

Rich

[Rich]

3784037841

A odd carrier borne tail dragger that was'nt needed

[dougal]

A MASSIVE thanks to all you guys, especially delta-lima. Some really good stuff to study and digest here.

[dougal]

Guys, what am I missing with Javier's great Nimitz carrier...?

I can't see how or where to change settings like animations or deck loading etc.

Thanks

[dougal]

Sorry guys, another couple of questions... Probably gonna drive you all nuts asking about this stuff, but for some reason, it's just got my interest.

1) Is there a way of saving a flight on the Javier carriers? When I try loading one, I just get my aircraft falling in the water.

2) Anyone know a way to get the Javier carriers to show-up as AI on flight planners like Flightsim Commander etc?

3) Is there such a thing as ILS for carrier landings?

[heywooood]

heywooood, I think it was you I passed tailhook settings to for Piglets Skyraider, check tailhook position is

tailhook_position =-25.54, 0.0, -0.42

and not

tailhook_position =-25.54, -3.0, -0.42

which has the tailhook off center, the -3.0 is where I had my nav light marker outside the fuselage where I cold see it, sorry just noticed it while doing something else

Rich

Yes Rich - that was me and if I forgot to thank you before consider it done now...much appreciated.

once I could see what the coordinates looked like and where to put them I can now adjust my other 'draggers when needed so the info you posted was terrific.

[Rich]

Forgot to mention the handy gauge which tells me I had caught No1 wire, air speed and rate of descent.

[cortomalteseit]

Forgot to mention the handy gauge which tells me I had caught No1 wire, air speed and rate of descent.

mmm.... very interesting... where can I find it???

[SkippyBing]

mmm.... very interesting... where can I find it???

Here:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/Flying_Stations/index.php?showtopic=19&st=0&#entry3369601

[cortomalteseit]

Here:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/Flying_Stations/index.php?showtopic=19&st=0&#entry3369601

Thanks, i've always been curious about where the hook touch the deck! ;)

[SkippyBing]

"One major bug bare of mine is seeing people nosing over when trapping, pisses me off so much that especially on youtube when "they" claim it to be a textbook landing!!"

You say that but look at this one:

http://calnikont.com/images/F-8_-21.jpg

[dougal]

Hey, Skippybing...

I believe t'was you who once uploaded a BGL file for the Javier Nimitz to sail out of San Diego?

If you still have it, could you please either attach or PM it for me?

Many thanks

[SkippyBing]

I 'think' it's this one, add it to Scenery/World/Scenery.

I don't have AIBoats installed at the moment so I can't decompile it to check but I'm 99% sure it's the right one!

37975

[dougal]

Thanks for that.

Don't know if you (or anyone else) can solve a problem for me...?

I have Javier's Nimitz and AI Carriers2 installed, and all worked correctly from the FSX Menu or Shift-J, so I assume the carrier is correctly installed.

However, when I load a flight previously saved sitting on the Nimitz, the aircraft loads okay, but NOT the carrier.

I've edited the FLT file to show: SimOnGround=Faulse

I've also tried disabling my UT2 traffic and setting FSX traffic for full.

Any ideas what the problem is?

EDIT: Can you remember what time the 'ship' sails out of San Diego?

[SkippyBing]

The carriers generated by AI Carriers aren't saved as part of the saved flight.
Saved flights only actually save information relevant to the user aircraft, the fact that other aircraft, ships, etc. appear again is due to the fact that they're following a timetable and when you load the saved flight they're at the same point on their timetable. The carriers generated by AI Carriers are additional to this, i.e. they're not on a timetable route so they won't reappear if you load a flight even if it's at exactly the same time.
To load a flight on a carrier it has to have been saved on a ship that is on a timetabled route, i.e. it's route is encoded in a BGL. As an aside don't try setting one of these flights as a default flight as default flights use the system time as their start time for some reason, which means you'll appear about 60' above the sea with nothing near by.

[Rich]

Anyone got Rob Richardsons DH Sea Venom FAW 22 with the the cat strop not visible,

this is what you should see.


38140

[Sludge]

A few more thoughts ....

A. Fuel weight. I never enter the pattern with more than 20% fuel. Makes a massive difference on most planes where fuel is a high % of overall weight.

B. The FSX tutorial is fine ... but do any naval air arms CARQUAL their budding nuggets on their fleet fighter right away? Same for the FS world. I can't count the number of posts people have made about why they struggle landing a particular fast fighter - FS9, FSX, SFP1, CFS2, etc. If you want to get good, emulate the real world training syllabuses. Walk before you run. We used to say in the military: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Ready? Here goes.
1. Forget about the carrier - concentrate on being able to touch down at a precise spot (the piano keys or the numbers) at a precise speed, at a precise vertical speed on a training base. "That's boring - I want to fly on carriers". Patience, young Paduan(s) ... the pattern distances and heights are easier to gauge over an airfield ... make that second nature, and it'll be that much easier when you're over open water with few, if any reference points.

2. Forget about the fighters - There are a number of superb trainers out there: Dino's T-45, the Restauravia Zephyr. Other great starter planes for carrier ops are AS or Conrad Trojans, or the Conrad Skyraider. In fact, the best I've recently tried is Rob Richardson's Fairey Gannet. That rotund little lassie is so tame, she can make ANY sim pilot look good on landing. Think about that ... Planes with low wing loading, low touchdown speeds, and generally forgiving flight characteristics allow you to get comfortable with skills you'll need for fast jets. Practice until you can land at least 10 consecutive times exactly on those keys or numbers.

3. Once you get good with trainers on bases, THEN start doing circuits on the fast jet(s) of your choice on the base. Make sure you can do the above touchdowns perfect and repeatedly (10-20 consecutive times at least).

4. Now set up the boat. As has been indicated, real life conditions ususally involve a headwind - dial that into your weather. Even 20kts is a big help. Next make your boat move. Those stationary boats of FS9 are history. You've invested in FSX - use it to its max. Get those boats moving, as mentioned, into the wind. So, if your boat is moving at approx 20 kts, and your headwind is 20 kts - you now have a "free" 40kt bonus in your kitty. If your fancy is the F/A-18, with a landing speed of approx 135 kts, that makes your velocity differential (a/c versus boat) only 95 kts - or the equivalent of flying an aircraft that touches down at 95 kts onto a stationary, windless runway. Aaaahhh now you see yet another virtue of having practiced in a slower plane.

To illustrate the above, check this F/A-18 landing video. Notice the speed on his hud after touchdown is 48 kts. So from the pitot tube's point of view, the plane is flying through the air at 48 kts. That means there is a combination of headwind and carrier speed (likely around 23kts and 25kts respectively) helping him out as he landed.

Delta_Lima...

Some decent ideas (ie. doing plenty of field practices before going out to the ship), but some incorrect information and/or unnecessary procedures (wind over deck, Hornet HUD airspeed, fuel loadout).

Dougal...

First, you dont have to land with 20 percent or in that very low area. IF you are using the Sludge Hornet (in regards to the MANUAL FLAPS), you will have no problem landing at MAX TRAP FUEL of 7.0 or 7000 lbs of fuel or less. On the fuel selection screen, feel free to load up your LEFT/RIGHT FEED tanks to 100 and L/R AUX tanks to 60. Should put you at just under 7k gas. Good to go.

Second, once you get proficient with field landings. When heading out to the ship get it moving and remember to setup the headwind according to Base Recovery Course (ships heading, known as BRC) MINUS 9 degrees for angled deck. Usually Javier/AICarriers set a base carrier speed of approx 25 knots. So putting 12 kts "down the angle" should get you right in the ball park.

Also, you cannot use the 48 kts on the HUD airspeed to compute a total headwind component. The Sludge Hornet (JR/Printz HUD) stops at 48, just like the real Hornet due to limitations in the pitot tube system. So disregard the earlier post about that, as total Wind-Over-Deck (WoD) should be no more than 40 kts, for FSX's 4.0 (3.99) Meatball and ICLS Needles.

I made this video with an earlier rendition of the Sludge Hornet (v1.1), to show people how to fly a carrier pattern. Load it up and watch it in full. Be mindful of the "text boxes" that come up showing what to do. Pause the video, read them, and then watch what happens. I'd put my FSX carrier pattern in this video up against any Ive seen on YouTube, as far as realism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymB3ggXpnNQ

(watch in Original Resolution).... and mouse hover over the caption boxes for further information.

If you have any questions, feel free to message me here, at my email, at FSDreamTeam.com, or on Skype.

Later
Sludge

[delta_lima]

Delta_Lima...
Some decent ideas (ie. doing plenty of field practices before going out to the ship), but some incorrect information and/or unnecessary procedures (wind over deck, Hornet HUD airspeed, fuel loadout).



OK - so the "Sludge" F/A-18 can land at near it's full weight - is that a general prescriptive rule? I doubt that. The OP was looking for general guidance; wind over the deck and fuel loads are pretty universal considerations irrespective of what plane he'll choose to fly.
Thanks for the correction on the pitot tube minimum - did not know that.:ernae:

[Sludge]

OK - so the "Sludge" F/A-18 can land at near it's full weight - is that a general prescriptive rule? I doubt that. The OP was looking for general guidance; wind over the deck and fuel loads are pretty universal considerations irrespective of what plane he'll choose to fly.
Thanks for the correction on the pitot tube minimum - did not know that.:ernae:
Delta Lima...

No its not a "prescriptive rule". Its based on NATOPS, on MAX TRAP fuel. As I stated, the Sludge can carrier land at its MAX TRAP (7k fuel), NOT FULL WEIGHT, in full flaps, gear down, and be on-speed. Of course it can land with more, but the RoD will start to get unreasonable (900-1k ft/min descent rate). Additionally, what do you mean "universal considerations"? IN FSX, the wind over deck needs to be around 12 kts, if you have a moving carrier (at 24-25 kts speed)... to fly a good carrier pattern and be in the groove at 0.8NM on TACAN. It also needs to be set into the correct heading, with the sum total (carrier speed + wind, known as "wind over deck") never above 40 kts. I would recommend the 12 kts wind "down the angle", as that will setup a max of 37 kts. This too is backed up by NATOPS guidance and FSX realities. LSO NATOPS says (paraphrasing): WoD should be 35+ kts for a 4.0 IFLOLS (meatball) basic angle. This will in turn make a 3.2 "effective" glideslope.
Since none of us (non-microsoft people) can change the carrier meatball to something other than 3.99 (or 4.00), we have to use the wind over deck that NATOPS says for 4.0 and live with it.
Also, MAX TRAP FUEL is approx. 70 percent fuel or less. The reason I brought that up is, you seemed to be saying he needed to land at 20 percent or less and thats just not true. He can, but thats considered TANKER time, IRL. If he chooses, he can use up to 70 percent (MAX TRAP) and below. So, to have a semblance of realism and have enough gas for multiple (7 or so passes) traps, I'd recommend 70 percent gas. This applies for Hornets, Goshawks, Tomcats, and any other fixed wing carrier aircraft.

No worries about the "pitot tube" limitation. I didn't know that either, 'til Jivko Rusev put out the realistic HUD, then I figured out through NATOPS that the HUD airspeed doesnt go below 48 kts.

Later
Sludge

[thunderbird]

Amount of fuel is one thing
you said you have the VRS superbug, set your ACM to Training Payload, On fuel tab empty the left wing, Right wing & CTR tank, by this you will have 11221lbs of fuel, You A/C should not exceed 44000lbs of total weight