B737 fuel management (default)

[michael davies]

Hi folks,

Simple question, how does the default B737 manage fuel ?, what ever I try I cannot get fuel to flow from the wing tanks until the center is empty, problem is, when the center empties the engines stop, which is a problem as I'm trying to complete the leg on the center only with wings as reserve.

Additionally, is there a ratio for wing viz center ie 30/70, 60/40 etc?.

Failing all that is there a better B737 alternative out there, preferably freeware and FPS friendly, a 400 would be preferred but will take 800 if nothing else around.

Appreciate this is a military biased forum, but some one must fly these tubes....surely LOL.

Kindest

Michael

[Bjoern]

Normally, I fly these things.

No free -400 out there.

FSP/POSKY has -6/-7/-8/-900 external models and FDEs. Maybe they fix the fuel system bug, provided it stems from the FDE indeed.

If not, say if it's a VC issue, well...you're screwed. ;)


In the long run, I want to (re)do 737NG and A32x VCs anyways. Iron out the bugs ACES left in and move the cockpits to their correct locations for each sub version of the plane.

But this is years away and maybe redundant once Flight! is out.

[fliger747]

I can tell you how the real ones worked..... Pumps on (there were two in each tank) pressurized the fuel manifold from which the engines (via small engine driven pumps) drew fuel. Normally center tank fuel is used first via higher pressure override pumps, when that runs dry the pump low P lights come on and you switch off the override pumps and close the crossfeeds. Then the engines run tank to engine. All of the 737's use petty much the same system.

Cheers: T

[michael davies]

Thanks guys, had almost given up hope LOL.

Bjorn, not really sure where the fault lies in the default, FDE or simply if the sim cant do it...unlikely as everyone would have noted it by now. I'll take a look at the POSKY versions, see if they fixed it somehow.

Like you I'd like to do a decent VC but for the 400 series, better yet I got a look around a 200 T-43 at an air show and took some cockpit shots so would prefer that cockpit over the later MFDs, however I cannot stand the silly little engines on the 200's, I much prefer the HBR on the 400 and upward, but like you thats probably years away, though I doubt I'll move onto a new sim and keep FSx as my core sim for many years.

Fliger, tried all that, pumps on, cross feed on but it just takes it from the center all the time and when thats empty it refuse's to auto switch to the wing tanks, the engines stop and you turn into a brick, CTRL + E always restarts but its a pain as my center usually runs dry 12 miles out on the approach!. I've a little time today so might try some different switch settings and see what gives.

Kindest

Michael

[warchild]

arrrgh.. i really shouldnt reply before i've had coffee.. Mia culpa... look in the aircraft config file and see how many fuel tanks are listed.. We're having a related issue on the P-61 due to there being more than four tanks ( whch is the limit in fsx ). It may be a similar problem

[Bjoern]

Like you I'd like to do a decent VC but for the 400 series, better yet I got a look around a 200 T-43 at an air show and took some cockpit shots so would prefer that cockpit over the later MFDs, however I cannot stand the silly little engines on the 200's, I much prefer the HBR on the 400 and upward, but like you thats probably years away, though I doubt I'll move onto a new sim and keep FSx as my core sim for many years.

At one point, I wanted to ask Tom Ruth for his B727 VC, as it provides a perfect starting point for a 737. Eliminate the FE station, move the 'pits rear wall, redo the overhead, pedestal and parts of the main panel and you're good to go.
Eagle Rotorcraft has the exterior model of the 732 in a nearly finished state, so you just need to finish that up and you're basically done model-wise.
Since Erick C. retreated from the MSFS scene, I guess his FDEs are fair game (use and credit) now as well.

Voilà, a 732 with default systems depth (or a tad more if I'm in the mood for some XML magic).

And from there on, it's just touching up the VC to Classics standard and tackle the exterior model source files from Vistaliners.

The thing is though, that I don't want to do it all on my own. I'd need at least one person to take on the exterior model and maybe another one for the FDE.

If anyone is interested, I think we could get something going.
If not, I still have a Dornier giving me headaches.




arrrgh.. i really shouldnt reply before i've had coffee.. Mia culpa... look in the aircraft config file and see how many fuel tanks are listed.. We're having a related issue on the P-61 due to there being more than four tanks ( whch is the limit in fsx ). It may be a similar problem

Or it's a fuel tank selector issue.

[fliger747]

Certainly the gauge/module guys can do many tanks, the 747-400 with stab tank (PMDG) has 8 tanks, the 400F version has seven.

Many (ie South West) 737-300's have all round dials, though the FMC box is still there.

T

[guzler]

At one point, I wanted to ask Tom Ruth for his B727 VC, as it provides a perfect starting point for a 737. Eliminate the FE station, move the 'pits rear wall, redo the overhead, pedestal and parts of the main panel and you're good to go.
Eagle Rotorcraft has the exterior model of the 732 in a nearly finished state, so you just need to finish that up and you're basically done model-wise.
Since Erick C. retreated from the MSFS scene, I guess his FDEs are fair game (use and credit) now as well.

Voilà, a 732 with default systems depth (or a tad more if I'm in the mood for some XML magic).

And from there on, it's just touching up the VC to Classics standard and tackle the exterior model source files from Vistaliners.

The thing is though, that I don't want to do it all on my own. I'd need at least one person to take on the exterior model and maybe another one for the FDE.

If anyone is interested, I think we could get something going.
If not, I still have a Dornier giving me headaches.





Or it's a fuel tank selector issue.

I don't have the slightest clue how to help, but I can give you my enthusuastic support. The EC 732 still looks great and I fly it alot in FSX, the only let down for me is lack of VC

36526

[michael davies]

Didn't get a chance yesterday, opted for sleep ahead of night shift...glad I did as it was a bear of a shift, still only one left to do tonight and then 12 days off :).

Pam, could be as easy as that, will need to check the FDE and see whats going on, could also be a fuel selector issue, or lack of one even, theres just no way to select tanks indivdually, though looking at the real fuel panel, looks like they just rely on selecting the required pumps from each tank rather than an actual tank selector.

Tom, I think some 300's were crossovers, large engine but traditional gauges, sadly not a diverse collection of prototypes to choose from :). FMC, ah yes, that little widget, many a project discarded due to that one component!.

Bjorn, the only problem I've ever had with working on other peoples stuff (and it is quite considerable) is trying to get inside their head and work out how or why they modeled or mapped something in a certain way, it often takes as long to decipher the orignal work ahead of alterations than it does to make your own afresh. There are certainly models out there that you can mix and match and alter to suit, just depends on your style of flying, I find myself more and more just flying from the VC, I used (12 years) be a pure spot view flyer and virtually never flew inside, recently the reverse is true.

I couldn't commit to anything long term, but I know where your coming from, the impending workload of any project these days is enought to put all but the hardy...or insane... off right from the get go LOL. I did have a part started 737 model somewhere, had a quick look yesterday, seems to have been deleted from my usualy storage places, maybe lurking on and old HD or back up somewhere though.

Best

Michael

[Bjoern]

I don't have the slightest clue how to help, but I can give you my enthusuastic support.

Normally I'd say "go paint some liveries" if you want to help, but I think Erick's 732 has been covered pretty well in that department.




Tom, I think some 300's were crossovers, large engine but traditional gauges, sadly not a diverse collection of prototypes to choose from :). FMC, ah yes, that little widget, many a project discarded due to that one component!.

I think it's rather a matter of production number.

Either the partial glass cockpit wasn't certified yet when production of the 733 started or it was an option that many early customers didn't choose. Or it came with the -400 model and became standard for every sub version from then on.


Bjorn, the only problem I've ever had with working on other peoples stuff (and it is quite considerable) is trying to get inside their head and work out how or why they modeled or mapped something in a certain way, it often takes as long to decipher the orignal work ahead of alterations than it does to make your own afresh.

Well, for me it's more a matter of having to use GMax instead of its more capable alternative.
Also, it hugely depends on the model's complexity. I've had the Convair basically FSX native in about six hours...

You have a point though. I've seen source files with about 50000000 parts and 4000 materials, which was a total mood killer.


There are certainly models out there that you can mix and match and alter to suit, just depends on your style of flying, I find myself more and more just flying from the VC, I used (12 years) be a pure spot view flyer and virtually never flew inside, recently the reverse is true.

I've always been a VC flyer, so all you would get from me would be a VC only model anyways. ;)


I couldn't commit to anything long term, but I know where your coming from, the impending workload of any project these days is enought to put all but the hardy...or insane... off right from the get go LOL.

Actually, the possibility of having two separate models for the exterior and interior makes it easier to coordinate a team effort.
You'd just have to keep track of any animations that get triggered from the internal model and show up on the external one (say email custom XML variables back and forth).
Otherwise, everyone can work on his/her own.


I did have a part started 737 model somewhere, had a quick look yesterday, seems to have been deleted from my usualy storage places, maybe lurking on and old HD or back up somewhere though.

GMax, Max or FSDS?

[michael davies]

Bjorn, it was in Max, but I've checked all my back ups and its gone for good, probably as well as it was a couple of years old and would need tarting up to be presentable in any shape or form, easier and quicker to make a fresh one to get back to where I was at.

The two separate models in FSx does lend its self very well to dual developer products, if, as you say, both parties can co-ordinate things like animation and other sundries.

I've played some more with different permutations on fuel management and the conclusion is simple, the default B737 is broke LOL. They haven't even got the animations between 2D and VC aligned correctly, the cross feed in each is at odds with the other, as are light switch animations etc:banghead: .

Best

Michael

[Bjoern]

The two separate models in FSx does lend its self very well to dual developer products, if, as you say, both parties can co-ordinate things like animation and other sundries.

And as I've said - if you're in, I'm in. ;)


I've played some more with different permutations on fuel management and the conclusion is simple, the default B737 is broke LOL. They haven't even got the animations between 2D and VC aligned correctly, the cross feed in each is at odds with the other, as are light switch animations etc:banghead: .

Actually that would be reason enough to rip the VC model, get it into Max and basically rebuild it - without the bugs.
Flying just ain't fun when your cockpit contains at least one huge gamebreaker.

[Dangerous Beans]

Please don't forget the broken autobrakes knob while your at it if you do fix the VC guys.

[michael davies]

Whilst there are tools to reverse engineer the default VC and get it into Max, I won't do it, what you get in default stays in default, it'd be new or not at all.

Sorry to disappoint but even when the platform and items within have blatantly been discarded by the original authors I won't go there. I was never happy working on third party items (includes textures, meshes or FDEs) even with the authors blessing, so doing it when its a grey issue does not sit well with me.

To be honest you could only go so far anyway, to elevate the mesh higher you'd need a new mesh and animation and mapping.

Kindest

Michael

[Bjoern]

Well, it was just an offer.

With a few exceptions, most of what I do is built upon the work of others, so I don't really have a problem with getting into other people's design philosophies - as long as I have enough motivaion.

[fliger747]

Prior to the advent of the NG series 737, I had flown just about every major perterbation of the bird. Boeing is slowly getting away from the customization of the cockpits to a standard arangement for their aircraft. Every customer would send some short senior Captain down to Boeing and say we want this here and there etc. Many of the ones I flew were fine to be flown by a short guy from the left seat, everything right at hand, but the poor FO needed a boarding house reach.

Reverse engineering the FMC is a major project, almost as intense as the original engineering of the real thing. However it is what gives the plane it's capability. The best version I have seen of an operating FMC is in the PMDG 747-400. Not exactly the same setup as in the 737, but those who have mastered it have an idea what it's capabilities are.

Working backwards to get a sim engine to accomplish things it was never designed to do is a major achievement.

Hats off to those who do.

Cheers: T