Why dont we have any Formula one air racers???

[sctybdy]

3419034189Hi all,
I'm wondering why our esteemed FS developers havent built any F1 air racers, Specifically the Cassutt, Shoestring racer, Midget Mustang (Goodyear racer) and the list goes on and on. Considering all the really neat stuff that's been put out, I would think an airplane as dirt simple as the cassutt would be a lot easier to design and a real hoot to have virtual air races with. Bending virtual pylons in a twitchy little 100 hp airplane would get the juices flowing!!! For those that dont know what a cassutt is, I'll post the pics, but I've been hoping someone with the know how would put one out. Regardless, I've been having a ball in Milton and crews F7F Thanks!!!!:salute:

[aeromed202]

I'm still hoping for this

34198

Does it count?

[ThinkingManNeil]

How about Neil Loving's "Loving's Love"? Not strictly Formula 1, but it did race in Goodyear's Midget Class...

3420834209

Or the Polen Special... (http://www.polenspecial.com/polen_special.htm)

http://www.polenspecial.com/Air_Ground/airground7.htm

N.

[sctybdy]

funny you mention the Loving Special, the fuselage for that particular airplane has been for sale on ebay for some time now. I dont know why, but the wings are not part of the deal. Sad end for a neat little airplane.

[sctybdy]

I'm still hoping for this

34198

Does it count?

We are all inclusive here at Airracers"R"us :) The nemesis NXT would be a real pylon bender!!!
Now how do we find a developer to join our cause???

[Blackbird686]

I'm still hoping for this

34198

Does it count?

I don't know if it counts or not, but I'll bet it really hauls arse!

BB686:USA-flag:

[Drzook]

I'm not sure if this counts but IIRC the Sonerai was based on a Formula One design; this one's at Flightsim.com:
FS2004 (ACOF) - FS2004 General Aviation FS2004 Sonerai II
[ Download (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=100284) | View (http://www.flightsim.com/zview.php?cm=list&fid=100284) ]
Name: sonerai2.zip (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=100284) Size: 13,400,863 Date: 04-28-2006 Downloads: 921
http://www.flightsim.com/l/sonerai2.gif FS2004 Sonerai II, a small Spanish racing plane. Features 2D panel with new XML gauges, VC, 3D night illuminated panel, animation effects, sound package. By Xavier Gasso.

This one's kind of a hoot as well; a bit unorthodox but still pretty fun; and all on allegedly 100 horsepower!
FS2004 (ACOF) - FS2004 General Aviation FS2004 Aeroworks ARX-6 Roadrunner
[ Download (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=102313) | View (http://www.flightsim.com/zview.php?cm=list&fid=102313) ]
Name: arx6jt.zip (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=102313) Size: 7,154,863 Date: 07-03-2006 Downloads: 1,505
http://www.flightsim.com/l/arx6jtp.gif http://www.flightsim.com/l/arx6jt.gif FS2004 Aeroworks ARX-6 Roadrunner. The ARX-6 is a single place Formula One pylon racing aircraft and is built to the specs of the International Formula 1 Air Racing association. Like all Formula One race planes, it is built around the Continental O-200. This is the same 100 hp engine that barely powers a Cessna (http://www.fspilotshop.com/google_search.php?cx=015135182716875408078%3Avaqv6 zmfyvi&cof=FORID%3A11&q=+cessna&siteurl=www.fspilotshop.com%2F&x=0&y=0#922&ref=269) 150 to 100 knots but on the small extremely lightweight and aerodynamic airframes of formula one racers the top aircraft can push 300 mph. With very few instruments, and less than average ground handling, Formula One aircraft are very clean "no frills" machines that serve only one purpose - flying low, flying fast and turning left. This package includes nine different schemes. Aircraft and panel by Jason L. Terry. Additional schemes by Joshua B. Nyhus, Brady Duros and Mike VIvaldi.

I found this too but I have a feeling this might not be the right Formula One:
FS2004 (ACOF) - FS2004 Other Aircraft FS2004 F1 Cars
[ Download (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=113513) | View (http://www.flightsim.com/zview.php?cm=list&fid=113513) ]
Name: f1partii.zip (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=113513) Size: 20,583,383 Date: 07-04-2007 Downloads: 1,183
http://www.flightsim.com/m/f1partii.gif http://www.flightsim.com/wbicons/fcq1.gif FS2004 F1 Cars. Part 2 of 14-23 F1 Cars. Features new colors, new cockpit, new sounds and new cars from Jaguar, Minardi, Flightteam, Bar, Benetton, Toyota, Arrows. This a Project of Formula one Cars for Flight Sim. By Dirk Stuck.

(Oh come on, you knew I had to do it...:173go1:)

[Tom Clayton]

I'm still hoping for this

34198

Does it count?
I've been drooling for one of those for years!!!

[sctybdy]

How would we entice a developer to build us some reno hotrods? I doubt they'll take First borns, but I'd be happy to name a pet after them, Pay for massages (Of their choice of course:) or whatever else it would take to make things happen. Does anyone know a developer who might be interested in doing a model?

[phantomx1]

Some starter material here if any interest developes. :wiggle:


Midget Mustang
http://www.mustangaero.com/Midget%20Mustang/Midget%20Mustang.html

Midget Mustang Specifications
http://www.mustangaero.com/Midget%20Mustang/Midget%20Specifications.html

3- View Drawings
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Midget%20Mustang/Midget%203%20View.JPG

[sctybdy]

Here's some stuff on the cassutt too. I also have some 3 views and misc. pictures if someone would be interested.

http://cassutt.lornet.com/

[phantomx1]

Here's some stuff on the cassutt too. I also have some 3 views and misc. pictures if someone would be interested.

http://cassutt.lornet.com/

It would seem the good part about modeling the cassutt is that nothing has to really be exact as to shape of the fuselage, tail section, canopies, engine cowling, turtlebacks, etc. as there probably are no two Cassutts that are exactly alike. Some stretch the fuselage to accomodate taller or short pilots. Probably the only part of the plane that is the same on other Cassutts is the wing, which is of simple rectangular planform. The rest is open to improvisation to the builder as long as it somewhat close to basic specs so that it may still be considered a Cassutt.

I had the Sonerai II model once before a good while back. I think I'm going to download it. As well I remember it was a very well modeled ship and gave a good feel of the type AC.

As far as racing, if someone set up a meet, everyone could fly the Sonerai II, but would be neater if their were other variant formula one racers. Come to think of it, a couple sims back there used to be a neat little formula one racing biplane. Can't remember the name of it, but it was cute as all get out. Had four gull wings on it. Owl Racer? I'll try to look it up.

[srgalahad]

I'm wondering why our esteemed FS developers havent built any F1 air racers, Specifically the Cassutt, Shoestring racer, Midget Mustang (Goodyear racer) and the list goes on and on. Considering all the really neat stuff that's been put out, I would think an airplane as dirt simple as the cassutt would be a lot easier to design and a real hoot to have virtual air races with.

I'll hazard a guess that, like sportscar racing in N. America, it doesn't have the mass appeal 'cause "it ain't the Big Iron". Even with the F1's etc at Reno, you hardly see any coverage and the crowds are primarily the serious fans so it becomes "small market". That used to be different - the 1929 Cleveland Air Races attracted 100,000 fans for the opening day!
http://www.airracinghistory.freeola.com/Cleveland%20Air%20Races.htm

While not to-the-rule F1 racers, those who don't mind sliding into the historical realm of Thompson Trophy racers (or their hypothetical friends) have a few more options. If you have Lionheart's Bugatti Adventure
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/page.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=info&FileID=10775
there are 7 pylon racers and even an airfield with pylons.

BTW, if anyone wants to muck about with a variation, a few of us have a base set of rules for a 'pylon' event that uses only the default scenery. Pm me if interested.

[Tom Clayton]

Does the default Reno Airport have a course set up, or is there an addon that puts the pylons in place?

[Sunny9850]

My guess is that Srgalahad is correct that even though such an aircraft might be relatively simple to create (for some) it would only attract a very small group of "customers" so the best chance of getting any flying F1 racers developed would be if you find a builder that wants one for his own flying pleasure and because of that doesn't care if there is a demand for the final product.
The problem I see with virtual air racing lies in the fact that it would be very difficult to check the airplanes in the race meet certain criteria....because FDE fiddling is a whole lot easier than coaxing a few extra Hp or RPM out of a real fire breathing engine.

Some time ago I particpated in a online version of a STOL competition....and even though there was no other price than bragging rights on the line some fools felt it necessary to cheat by editing their FDEs to get unworldly performance out of their C-185s and PA-18s.

Good luck on your quest all the same though.

Cheers
Stefan

[pfflyers]

On my install of FS9 there are pylons at the Reno/Steadman (4SD) airport. They are planted in what seems to be default type terrain next to the runways. There is no other scenery with them, no grandstands or anything.

I can't remember installing them, there is no folder in my ADDON scenery folder that seems likely to be a Reno air-race scenery. Maybe they are default? Or it might be one of those sceneries where you just dump the bgls and textures into those folders in the ADDON folder.

I've tried flying around them a few times and I s*ck at it. I can't stay low enough to keep them in sight without crashing, guess I'm no air-racer!

[srgalahad]

... it would be very difficult to check the airplanes in the race meet certain criteria....because FDE fiddling is a whole lot easier than coaxing a few extra Hp or RPM out of a real fire breathing engine.

Those who feel the need to cheat would ultimately get found out in numerous ways but the first step is usually to explain that there's no value in it, and in fact it's more rewarding to win in a weaker plane with a better pilot so cheaters get the concept when it's discussed. Time for set-up and practice/qualifying (preferably online and TeamSpeak) tends to provide the opportunity to clear the air - don't expect it all to fit right on the first event - after 8 years the RTWR Committee is still tweaking things.

As for making sure the a/c flown is the original (or with allowed mods) download it can be done by testing the source a/c, recording the performance and checking the end results. While a knot or two makes less difference in the Round The World Race, we are pretty stringent about compliance and use of the Duenna software and online tracking provides more oversight. In the real world, the F-1 class was intended as a low-cost, one rule class, but they also went through the need for tech inspections etc. -anything less is wishful thinking.

Building a 'race course' isn't overly painful in either FSX or FS9 and the Red Bull pylons could be used (as could any other likely object). Of course, if a serious Flight Sim Race Meet was organized for Reno you know what would happen -- one year of F-1 racing and then someone would ask to run a T-6 class and the next year guys would show up in P-51's and Jugs and then they'd complain about those little "toy racers" cluttering up the place and...:redfire:

Rob

[phantomx1]

Have you ever run in some races online Rob? I haven't but have flown online a few years back and I have douts about the quality of framerate issues when in close proximity to other aircraft. Wouldn't this be a problem with 3,4, or 5 planes running a coarse on line? or have things improved much over the past couple of years?

[Tom Clayton]

On TVA's Saturday Night group flights, it used to be common for 10 or more pilots to be online at the same time. As long as the planes that are participating are easy on frames to begin with, you should be OK. Models should have no more than basic animations, not a huge number of poly's, (sorry Bill!), and run well with either DXT3 or 8-bit textures. After that, most rigs should run just fine, even with a decent gathering. If it's on an FSHost server, have an admin go in and enforce the "Fair Weather" theme to further boost frames. Complex weather can be a frame killer on some systems too.

Edit: As a matter of fact, the weather should be set at the FSHost server to ensure that each player gets the same conditions. The first option says "Send weather to new players when they join" and the other one is "Re-send weather to all players every _ seconds" Check both options and set the second to 60 seconds - which I think is default anyway.

[sctybdy]

1) Is is possible to build a fs aircraft with encrypted files?

2) You guys are absolutely right, cheaters would get caught pretty quick and not allowed to participate.

3) I've been flying the default reno/stead (4SD) scenery and find it adequate to negotiate and track pylons with practice. It's a lot harder than one would think, but I'd imagine that it's tough to find the pylons at reno in real life too. With some practice I'm doing pretty good now.
4) another question is how we would judge the races? Does this go back to good old fashion character and self policing! I sure hope this takes off!!!!

[Tom Clayton]

1) Is is possible to build a fs aircraft with encrypted files?
Not that I know of.


4) another question is how we would judge the races? Does this go back to good old fashion character and self policing! I sure hope this takes off!!!!
Without something like the Duenna software, you're left with the honor system. As a backup, someone with admin access to the flight server could just boot off/ban anyone caught cheating.

[sctybdy]

SRCsim has started this midget mustang project, but I think it's been abandoned. I looked for contact information to ask them if the project was ongoing to no avail. If someone knows how to get a hold of SRCsim and ask them about it, that would be great. Maybe some interest in the project might get it going again (I dont know for sure what the status is, just my gut feeling) It's been a long time since anything new has been mentioned on their site. Heres a link to their site. Some really cool screen shots of the FS2004 Midget Mustang!!!!

http://www.srclink.net/sim/aircraft/

http://www.srclink.net/sim/aircraft/MM1screenshots.html

http://www.srclink.net/sim/aircraft/MM2screenshots.html

[srgalahad]

1. If you start with the belief that people will cheat, they will. If you open it to every 'game-boy' out there it will happen.

2. Few of these things work without rules ( actually, none..) and controls so it can't be an open event to begin with.

3. Everyone wants to be the Hero Race Pilot, but someone has to be the guy who makes it work.
-- likely the easiest start method is a 'pace plane' a la Bob Hoover
-- either an airborne judge or multiple on-ground judges OR video review to check for pylon-cuts during the race.
-- the easiest scoring is an observer/Judge at the finish taking one/many screenshots
-- use of Duenna is essential to check speeds and altitudes as well as record Official Times
-- server should be closed to prevent unwanted visitors and an overload of spectators

4. There are several ways to police the aircraft, but knowing your fellow competitors is the first. Next comes practicing/testing together (or cross-testing the a/c). One issue that will have to be dealt with is the level of accuracy & reality of the given air/cfg files compared to the historical data (if you are using 'real world' aircraft).

Might as well ponder this stuff at the beginning, but that's not to say you can't be racing and testing ideas at the same time. Two or three pilots even racing the same plane online would be a good start to try out some of the scenarios and find the problem areas.

As for framerate issues etc. online, much depends on your internet connection and modem settings. DangerousDave26 has done a huge amount of work to provide tutorials and guidance - go read and get your settings right. With everyone using proper settings we regularly see 6-10 a/c online and the RTWR has had a post-race gathering with 24 a/c on one server

Now I'll get "editorial" and wonder why all the people interested in F-1 or Thompson or Bendix racing have never even looked into the multiplayer racing forums, or used the SOH servers or gotten involved with the RTWR Team where a lot of these things have been discussed for years...

[ThinkingManNeil]

Of course, if a serious Flight Sim Race Meet was organized for Reno you know what would happen -- one year of F-1 racing and then someone would ask to run a T-6 class and the next year guys would show up in P-51's and Jugs and then they'd complain about those little "toy racers" cluttering up the place and...:redfire:

Rob

When it comes to "real world" air races, I remember when the Pond Racer came out some years ago and it looked so promising; I genuinely hoped it would inject some badly needed fresh conceptual blood into the Unlimited class at Reno as I hate seeing all those beautiful Merlins and big radials being chewed to bits on that course. But alas the Pond Racer never met its full potential and no one's ventured to pick up the ball since (I was surprised the Burt Rutan didn't try again). I think that something like the Pond or a new, composite airframe - perhaps with a turboprop or Falconer piston race engine - could reinvigorate the Unlimiteds and give the "Tired Iron" a well deserved break. I really don't care for the heavily mod'd airframes on the current Unlimiteds; genuine warbirds are rare enough as is.

Formula 1 and Lancairs being raced I don't mind but I find the T-6's a tad slow to watch for racing despite them being one of my favourite aircraft. I wouldn't mind seeing a stock L-39 (and ONLY L-39's) class as they'd be pretty evenly matched but you can keep those Long Eze's and Eclipse's with the rocket motors - great for technology development by racing them as a concept is just plan silly IMO.

But as for some vintage and modern Formula 1's in FS9 I say go for it!

N.