OT 303 SMLE

[jeansy]

after i posted a thread a while back about hobbies, i saw there was a few shooters in there

its OT but im currently doing a OZ 1942 MK1 III* 303 refurbishment


ive still got a bit to go, working shifts dont help

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9121/37799822.jpg

pre

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1318/19394094.jpg

after 3 days of sanding and 2 days of soaking and cleaning the metal work

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3466/85082473.jpg

today after 13hrs doing the blu everything has been done including every screw etc etc and reassembled this evening and first coats of linseed oil

[deimos256]

Nice, I have a 1942 Savage made lend-lease Enfield No4 MkI, marked US PROPERTY. Beautifully made rifles, one of these days I'll actually find the time to go shoot the darn thing!

[scottmm73]

Beautiful.

[W. Bleddyn]

Gorgeous weapon. I have a Lee Enfield from the 40's but unfortunately it is a hunting rifle, not the military one. Everything from the chamber back is the same, but forward it looks more like a common rifle. I will have to dig up some pics or take some more.

[Cirrus N210MS]

i have a smle carbine

[spotlope]

Nice pics. I've got a WWII Japanese Nambu type 14 pistol. Actually, according to the serial number, it's from 1939, so I'm not sure if that counts as WWII vintage for Japan. Nice little pistol, though.

[Cirrus N210MS]

cool
Nambu



i heared they fire if you press on the side lol they show it on history channel

[peter12213]

Wish we could own them here, both my great grandfather in ww1 and my grandfather in ww2 used these, always had a soft spot for the "Short Magazine Lee Enfield" here!

[PRB]

Nice rifle. I have one of these. It's an Ishapore Enfield in .308, an Indian Army weapon.

[jeansy]

wow im surprised there was some interest

nice pics 2

Cirrus from that pic you have, sorry mate its not a carbine, the no.5 were the only carbines and came out late ww2,

http://usedguns.com.au/graphics/BK1607.jpg
ugly SMLEs that only a mother can love

just looking from that pic, its a no1 MK something mk1 to mkIII*

if you can get a close up of the receiver very good change i can ID it but a quick glance and the date you posted i say MKIII or a MKIII*

if the rear blade sight has a windage dial as well as elevation its a MKIII otherwise if it hasnt, and only has elevation its a MKIII*

[deimos256]

Ah the joys of Enfield identification. It took me a bout a week of searching around to gather info on mine.

[Dynasaur]

I've had a few S.M.L.E's , although I prefer the No4 ( I used to have a No4 T , sniper until a few years ago).
The best S.M.L.E I had was a 1929 No1 Mk III* made at the Lithgow Small-arms factory (West of Sydney) This would have been one of the last made before those made in WW2.
It was stocked in Queensland Maple, had a heavy target barrel and a target rear sight. I sold it back in 1984 and have regretted that ever since.

One of the best books on Lee-Enfields was 'The British Service Lee' by Ian Skennerton but I'm not sure if it is still available.

[jankees]

OK, I admit, I have one too:

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww230/jcblom60/2010/IMG_3901a.jpg

though mine doesn't work anymore...

[Cirrus N210MS]

my smle works good the safety is needing tighting up after shooting it ever time its used

the safety is weird its like toggle on side

----------my smle ------------------
smle & springfield 1884 45-70 trapdoor
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7008/springfieldandenfield.jpg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
smle & mosin nagant m91\30
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9900/mosinenfield.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Warrant]

after i posted a thread a while back about hobbies, i saw there was a few shooters in there

its OT but im currently doing a OZ 1942 MK1 III* 303 refurbishment


ive still got a bit to go, working shifts dont help



pre



after 3 days of sanding and 2 days of soaking and cleaning the metal work



today after 13hrs doing the blu everything has been done including every screw etc etc and reassembled this evening and first coats of linseed oil


Nice! Gonna shoot one (Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I) tomorrow, at our gun-range.


Here are mine (both welded and disabled):

3298232983


In a few months i will be able to purchase a firing one (gun laws are very strict here). Lucky me, my gun-club has i nice example for sale when i can apply for a permit.

[Roger]

Going off-topic in an off-topic thread; I've always wanted a Brown Bess, flintlock or percussion and disabled but I've no idea where to go to look. Google was not very helpful.

[wombat666]

As long as we are having a little OT discussion........:jump:
Matt, I trust your SMLE is a pukka "Made in Australia" model?
Rather than go down the Mk.IV route Lithgow did a first class job of improving the Mk.III, personally I do not like the Mk.IV in any shape or form and the Mk.V was just a pig of a weapon.
I'd lay even money that the 'Enfield Carbine' in Cirrus N210MS's collection dates from around 1907 or thereabouts, I doubt many ever saw service in WW.I.
Nice restoration BTW.

[Scratch]

Going off-topic in an off-topic thread; I've always wanted a Brown Bess, flintlock or percussion and disabled but I've no idea where to go to look. Google was not very helpful.

Here ya go Roger: http://www.amazon.com/1700s-Revolutionary-Flintlock-Musket-Replica/dp/B000SEXRDA

It's not an exact replica though if you compare it with pictures of real ones, but it close enough for a wall hanger I guess. I just took a quick look I'm sure there are better examples out there though.

Here's a link with some closeups of the same gun: http://cgi.ebay.com/BROWN-BESS-REVOLUTIONARY-WAR-MUSKET-REPLICA-W-BAYONET-/320571018932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

[wombat666]

http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket1.htm

Try these people out Roger.
As they mention in their promo, they make replicas but apparently good enough for TV Series such as the adaptations of Bernard Cornwall's "Sharpes" series.
Not exactly cheap but not to far OTT either.
:iidea:

[W. Bleddyn]

Here's one in the UK ;)


we also stock Brown Bess Muskets

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/home.php

[Willy]

My SMLE was made by BSA in 1908. Externally it's not in the best of shape, but it's a very accurate rifle for one that looks like it spent WWI in the trenches. I'm more into lever action rifles though. That's a Winchester 1892 clone in 357 Magnum under it.

[Roger]

Thanks for the info guys:ernae:

[Piglet]

Since we're talking bolt guns....3301633017

[Dynasaur]

Since we're talking bolt guns....3301633017

Hi, Is that a M17 or a P14 in the first pic ?
I used to have a MAS 36 too (many years ago) but could not get the ammo for it.
And that's an interesting Mosin-Nagant in the second pic
I know the 3rd one down in the second pic but I can't recall what it is (a Steyr 1895?).

Nice set of rifles

[jankees]

Top one is a M1903 Springfield, next a P-14 (.303) or a P-17 (30-06).
The other one looks like a Steyr to me too, but I'm not sure..

Nice collection, Tim!

[peter12213]

love the Mauser98k such a nice looking weapon that!

[peter12213]

Yeah your right Its the Steyr Mannlicher M95 Carbine used by the Austro-Hungarian Army! :salute: Really nice weapon!

[Piglet]

That is a Eddystone M1917 (P-17), in 30.06
The Steyr is indeed a M1895, in 8X56R. Odd looking round. And the rifle is a straight pull bolt, no turning the handle up or down, just pull and push. The recoil pad is not standard, it came off my MAS 49/56.
The Mosin Nagant is a Finnish Sako-built version.
I did have 7.5mm French ammo, but I ran it thru the 49/56, and didn't save any for the 36.
P.S Also got the sword bayonent for the SMLE No.1 Mk III. Gotta be careful in the house!

[Tracon]

Beautiful weapon. Good job on the restore

[peter12213]

I'm one of the few that like the Spike bayonets! Just like the Fairburn Sykes fighting knives used by the Royal Marines Causes massive loss of blood pressure and death, horrible, thats why were pilots! we don't have to see our brothers dieing we just see a flash and some smoke! Cannot imagine it! :salute:

P.S. I hate Firearms, I see no reason to own them unless your in an army, yes I've fired them and found it highly exciting but owning one for home defence is mad to me! cannot see the point at all!
Really enjoyed this thread though!

[GunnyG]

I'm one of the few that like the Spike bayonets! Just like the Fairburn Sykes fighting knives used by the Royal Marines Causes massive loss of blood pressure and death, horrible, thats why were pilots! we don't have to see our brothers dieing we just see a flash and some smoke! Cannot imagine it! :salute:

P.S. I hate Firearms, I see no reason to own them unless your in an army, yes I've fired them and found it highly exciting but owning one for home defence is mad to me! cannot see the point at all!
Really enjoyed this thread though!


That's fine, Pete.

I happen to consider myself pro-choice on self defense.

Just because we here have the right to determine our own fate, and then to properly equip and train ourselves, for such a situation, it isn't a mandate. There are plenty of people here, who think like you.

Having that option is the difference between being a citizen and a subject.

[GunnyG]

after i posted a thread a while back about hobbies, i saw there was a few shooters in there

...

Nice!!

I should break out the commonwealth members of my collection this weekend, for a family photo. Here's just one:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/Private/AR15/EnfieldMkVI-1925-1.jpg?t=1299907746

[Rich]

The spike bayonet was just that, round like a six inch nail with no sharp edges to cut, the first spike for the Mk 4 blade was made in cruciform shape to lighten and strengthen but gave way to the nail shape nothing like a Fairburn Sykes fighting knives.

The No1 Mk III never had a spike bayonet.

[Rich]

This is the spike bayonet for the Mk 4 Lee Enfield and

a Sykes Fairburn knife to compare

[jeansy]

As long as we are having a little OT discussion........:jump:
Matt, I trust your SMLE is a pukka "Made in Australia" model?
Rather than go down the Mk.IV route Lithgow did a first class job of improving the Mk.III, personally I do not like the Mk.IV in any shape or form and the Mk.V was just a pig of a weapon.
I'd lay even money that the 'Enfield Carbine' in Cirrus N210MS's collection dates from around 1907 or thereabouts, I doubt many ever saw service in WW.I.
Nice restoration BTW.


Its a true OZ stick, marked Lithgow but built and inspected in Bathurst

[peter12213]

This is the spike bayonet for the Mk 4 Lee Enfield and

a Sykes Fairburn knife to compare

Yeah I wasn't actually saying the bayonet was like the knife just saying that the effect is much the same for stabbing rather than hacking or cutting!

[norab]

This is the spike bayonet for the Mk 4 Lee Enfield and

a Sykes Fairburn knife to compare


there was also a blade bayonet for the #4's

33071

[Marvin Carter]

When I was a kid in Hight school my brother was playing around with a Sykes Fairburn knife, and you gested it, stab me in the arm with it, came out all the way trough. Dam nere blead to death. So I can say they do work vary well for what they were made for!!!

[peter12213]

Yeah there deadly probably one of the finest fighting knives ever made! What happened to your brother Marvin bet he got a fair whack on the ass for that lol!

[Ivan]

I have a Frankenstein version of this rifle:
The receiver is an Ishapore No.1 Mk.III*
The barrel is from an Irish gun marked FF at the reinforce. It is also the tightest .303 I have ever seen. It is basically new and could probably use .308 bullets without serious loss of accuracy
The muzzle cap is from a No.1 Mk.III (No Star) pre-Great War era gun. It has been opened slightly to clear the barrel and front sight.
The trigger guard is also from the pre-Great War gun
The butt stock is from a No.4 Mk.I with broad arrow marks
The bolt is new from an Australian No.1 Mk.III* I bought 3 and installed the one that gave the best headspace. Headspace on this gun is very tight.
The rear sight guard is also from the Great War veteran
The magazine is a new one military issue
The spring under the loop on the barrel is a cut down piece from a M1 Garand.

This spring is VERY important for accuracy. I have never seriously tested this gun for accuracy, but I have shot quite a few sub 2-inch groups with it. The Great War veteran was bought for $30 from a fellow on the range who was getting keyholes at 50 yards. That gun was WORN OUT. It's bolt was so loose the bolt head would not stay in its track. Its serial number matched the receiver, so I knew it wasn't a mismatch. In fact another bolt fit better in this receiver than the original.

Frankenstein looks very good as long as you don't look at any of the markings.

BTW, The distinction between the No.1 Mk.III and the Mk.III* is whether or not the gun has a magazine cutoff. A lot of the guns had the cutoff removed at some later date, but you can still tell the guns apart by the slot on the left side of the receiver. The idea was that you load the magazine and engage the cutoff. At this point, you load and fire single rounds. When the Huns come out of their trenches, you pull the cutoff ouy and have 10 magazine fed rounds to repell boarders.

- Ivan.

[Cirrus N210MS]

my enfield has heavy barrel use the weapon has heavy barrel pitting fixed sights 10 round magazine no bayonet

it kicks like mule has tool hatch on back metal butt plate

ill try to take some more photos:salute:

[Warrant]

Ivan & Cirrus; pictures please? :wiggle:

[Cirrus N210MS]

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00139.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00137.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00135.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00134.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00133.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00132.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00131.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00130.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00129.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00128.jpg

[Cirrus N210MS]

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00145.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00143.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00142.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/MikeMannschreck/my%20firearms%20collection%20images/DSC00141.jpg

[Warrant]

WOW, Cirrus, thanks for sharing!

Edit: here two more shot's of my SMLE (it is a non-functional one):

3327533274

[Cirrus N210MS]

nice

[deimos256]

heres a couple receiver pics of my Savage made enfield, with the original, non simplified bolt release.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r101/deimos256/e1.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r101/deimos256/e4.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r101/deimos256/e3-1.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r101/deimos256/e2-1.jpg

[Ivan]

Frankenstein.

I wanted to get a really good shot of the muzzle to show the condition of the rifling, but the sun didn't cooperate for lighting. I also have a Wilkinson sword bayonet for this gun, but wasn't able to find it for photographs.

- Ivan.

[huub vink]

Gun are perhaps quite normal in the USA and some other countries, but in many countries guns are quite controversial. As this is an international forum I would like ask your understanding for this.

Personally I think guns have absolutely nothing to do with virtual and real aviation therefore I kindly as you, as a fellow member and not as SOH staff to post threads in another more suitable forum.

Thanks,
Huub

[Warrant]

Gun are perhaps quite normal in the USA and some other countries, but in many countries guns are quite controversial. As this is an international forum I would like ask your understanding for this.

Personally I think guns have absolutely nothing to do with virtual and real aviation therefore I kindly as you, as a fellow member and not as SOH staff to post threads in another more suitable forum.

Thanks,
Huub

In that case i suggest you, as a SOH admin, move this thread to a more appropriate place:wiggle:. It would be a waste to just vacate such a nice thread like this (with all those nice images, stories and information), just to be considerate to nations that have controversity with gun's (though living in such a nation, i differentiate from such a point of view).
Though i can understand peoples aversion to gun's, i truly believe it is not the gun that kills or harms people; it is the mankind that irresponsibly operates the gun, that is harmfull.

[GunnyG]

.... It would be a waste to just vacate such a nice thread like this (with all those nice images, stories and information), just to be considerate to nations that have controversity with gun's (though living in such a nation, i differentiate from such a point of view).
Though i can understand peoples aversion to gun's, i truly believe it is not the gun that kills or harms people; it is the mankind that irresponsibly operates the gun, that is harmfull.


http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/Private/AR15/applause2.gif?t=1300323300

There is only one time when we need PC. That is when we are looking for the USB ports to plug our HOTAS controllers in to.

[N2056]

This thread could remain here, or it could be moved, or worse depending on the direction the responders decide they want it to go. Without mutual respect for each others opinion it's not going to fare well.

[huub vink]

Rene, thanks for your input. As I personally have the feeling there has been more than enough discussion between staff and other members here lately, I made this a personal request and therefore I do not intent to close it or to move it.

What I ask for is some understanding. There are several members, most likely a minority, who have problems with guns. Personally I don't really have problems with guns, but I just don't think this is the appropriate place to post.

Therefore I just made a request and I hope future threads on this topic will be posted in another forum. Not because it is a rule, but just out of respect for the feelings of others.

Cheers,
Huub

[Ivan]

The big question again is "Can we move this thread to a location that does not offend?"

Huub Vink,
I am a gun enthusiast but am hesitant to continue this discussion because of your comments. As others have stated, there has been a lively discussion on this topic and it would be a shame to just abandon it with all of the posts and images that are already here.

Obligatory gun commentary:
Please observe the rear sight guards on Frankenstein. The right side isn't curved outward. I believe this was intended to have room for the windage adjustment rear sight but I had a windage adjustable sight installed at one point and although there wasn't a LOT of room, there was enough for some adjustments.

- Ivan.

[SpaceWeevil]

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/Private/AR15/applause2.gif?t=1300323300

There is only one time when we need PC. That is when we are looking for the USB ports to plug our HOTAS controllers in to.

I'd buy that, if only the 'Tell it like it is!!' crew were a bit more relaxed when people have a go at THEIR sacred cows - but quite often 'free speech' only seems to flow one way.

Anyways, just off to post about gun control on Whopping Great Weapons.com - I'll let you know how I get on.:jump:

[MHAircraft]

I am a gun owner, too, but out of respect to the admin, I am not going to post photos of my Mausers and other stuff. However, I have to ask:

Are we still allowed to post screenshots of FS aircraft that show guns or other weapons?

[Moparmike]

I moved it down to the Other Hobbies forum. We've got a few other shooting threads hiding in here somewhere, another one is welcome.
Feel free to post your gun pics in here if you so wish...or any other hobbies you've got a hankering to share.

Those are some nice Enfields I see.

[Moparmike]

Are we still allowed to post screenshots of FS aircraft that show guns or other weapons?

Hmm...lemme see...those would be FS related so...ummm...yep. :)
Otherwise post em up down here.

Lets see those Mausers. A sure way to get those SMLE guys good and riled up. :ernae:

[Ivan]

How about German fighters with Swastikas on the tail?
(Yeah, I'm a trouble maker.)

- Ivan.

[huub vink]

How about German fighters with Swastikas on the tail?
(Yeah, I'm a trouble maker.)

- Ivan.

Believe it or not, but this topic has already been dicussed in the past.

German law does not allow to use this symbol out historical context. As we are an American based international forum, we consider German law not applicable here.

Some people may consider the use of the Nazi symbol offending, however we only use the symbol in a historical context and definitely do not support the ideas of the former Nazi. Therfore the display is regarded acceptable.

Cheers,
Huub

[Ivan]

I have built a couple WW2 German aircraft for CFS. I wonder if anyone from Germany has downloaded and what they do about the evil Swastika on the tail.... I put the emblem there because the originals had it.

- Ivan.

[huub vink]

That's what I meant with "in historical context", we try to make them "look as real as possible" which shouldn't be a problem.

A Germany based company like Classics hangar is not allowed to sell their product with the swastika included. For those who want it there is a unofficial freeware modification available via an Italian server. In Sturmovik IL2 the German aircraft don't have a swastika nor do the Finnish aircraft have the correct national marking (which was a swastika as well in that period). There are freeware modification available.

Although I have any proof, I'm convinced these free mods are used in Germany as well. However I can fully understand the German authorities, as their point of view is official. And will be looked at by many with a microscope!

Cheers,
huub

[Ivan]

Thanks for the details, Huub Vink. I still think this is silly. We in the USA do similar things. I noticed that my kids aren't talking about "slaves" before the Civil War. They now refer to "enslaved people" instead.

BTW, did anyone noticed the very early cocking piece on Warrant's rifle? Posting is toward the bottom of this page.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?50823-OT-303-SMLE/page3

- Ivan.

[wombat666]

As in the cylindrical bolt head?
Quite an old piece that.
Of course, there are so many variations on the SMLE theme it may well a pre-WW.I issue refurbished in a few other areas and returned to service.
:kilroy:

[wallyboard]

Thanks for the details, Huub Vink. I still think this is silly. We in the USA do similar things. I noticed that my kids aren't talking about "slaves" before the Civil War. They now refer to "enslaved people" instead.

BTW, did anyone noticed the very early cocking piece on Warrant's rifle? Posting is toward the bottom of this page.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?50823-OT-303-SMLE/page3

- Ivan.


My Mk III is like that, stamped 1916.

Cheers
Larry

[Warrant]

Today i went shooting at the base gun-range with my future rifle: a No4 Mk1 with scope.
What a joy! The impacts were a bit low but nicely grouped after all. Next time some adjustment on the scope. Nice thing was that other LE No4 Mk1 owners were shooting simultaniously so we could share experiences/knowledge.

What a weapon!

Some more months to wait before my gun permit gets granted (you have to do a year of shooting (18 sessions at least) and 1 year of membership before you get your first licence in my country).
Lucky the gun club owns the weapon i desire, and i can take it over once the permit gets through.

What are comparison prices for .303 factory ammo in your countries?

[wallyboard]

Haven't priced 303 ammo in Canada for a few years, but I reckon it's around $30 Cdn for a box of 20. My last box was about $25.
Larry

[Ivan]

Time to go load your own ammunition. I just got home from a gun show. At the show I saw a sporterized No.1 Mk.III* dated 1914 but with the early round cocking piece. The barrel was in poor condition and there were stamps all over the place around the chamber area. The bolt and receiver matched and the asking price was $100.

After the show, I went to a nearby shop and saw a No.4 MK.I* (a Longbranch gun) with the rear sight replaced with a scope mount. It had a Number 1 bolt head and the price which I thought wa a bit high was $440. The shop operator asked me what I thought about the price since he didn't know much about military guns and I told him the price a bit high. The gun was on consignment, so he told me he would inform the rifle's owner and ask about the missing rear sight.

I brought a couple pistols to the range and thought I would do some shooting this afternoon but turns out it was wrong kind of ammunition for the guns I had.....

- Ivan.

[norab]

If you are going to reload, I would respectfully suggest that you slug your barrel first. The nominal diameter is .311 inch. I have slugged over 20 different SMLE barrels on various Marks and Numbers from all the different arsenals and except for an Isaphore refit in 7.62 NATO which was exactly .308 inch per specs for that caliber have never found a barrel that was the correct bore diameter. They have ranged from a low of .307 to a high of .317. If you slug your barrel and get the diameter for it, you may significantly improve accuracy by using a bullet that more closely matches it's diameter rather than automatically using a .311 bullet

I would also suggest checking it's headspace as this is often pretty sloppy also, but there are different lengh bolt heads available that can be used to improve it if it's too great.

Please don't think I'm trying to slam SMLE's, they are sturdy rifles and about the fastest bolt actions to operate because they cock on the bolt closing stroke rather than when you open the bolt like most bolt actions. These are simply the effects caused by hurried wartime mass production. These are just a few suggestions based on my experiences with many Enfields. I share them solely to make shooting these rifles more accurate, and more enjoyable.

[Ivan]

Hi Norab,
I am kind of curious: What were the calibers for the guns you slugged? I would not be terribly surprised to see a .308 caliber L42 that slugged to .307 inch groove diameter, but I WOULD be surprised to find a nominal .303 caliber gun that slugged that low.

Just as a matter of note to all of us here, we should be a bit careful about terminology. The SMLE (Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield) was the correct name for guns before the Great War. Around the Great War, the great renaming took place and the SMLE became the Rifle Number 1 Mk.III and ones that did not have the magazine cutoff became the No.1 Mk.III*. I believe the Pattern 14 became a Rifle Number 3. The Number 4 was a long ways off in the future.

Near as I can tell, the SMLE or No.1s in any of their variations never had replaceable bolt heads for head space adjustment. This is not to say that you can't find a bolt head that will adjust headspace tighter. You just can't do it predictably. Thread timing is also unpredictable. In building Frankenstein as described earlier, I had sufficient parts to find a bolt head that was about 180 degrees off time to a particular bolt body I had. I also got lucky that one nice looking bolt head timed and headspaced PERFECTLY to a new Lithgow bolt body, barrel, and receiver I was working on. It was really a matter of rolling the dice enough times by having enough parts to select from.

These guns SMLE and No.1 Mk.III and Mk.III* are also NOT terribly sturdy actions. They are NOT suitable for .308 Winchester or 7.62 NATO. The Ishapore Number 2 or 2A1 (designation depends on the rear sight installation) may have the same contour but different metallurgy and ARE sufficiently strong for 7.62 NATO. The Ishapore 7.62 NATO guns were only ever issued as reserve guns until sufficient numbers of FN FAL types were available.

Rifle No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I*, and Mk.II MAY be sufficiently strong. The British checked the actions before rebuilding to 7.62 NATO. The difference between a Mk.I and Mk.I* is that the Mk.I* has a cutout in the front of the right receiver rail instead of a spring loaded tab that blocks the opening at the REAR of the receiver rail that allows the bolt head to be rotated up to remove the bolt. The Mk.II has the trigger attached to the body (receiver) of the gun. This was to prevent dimensional changes in the wood from affecting trigger pull. The earlier guns had the trigger attached to the trigger guard which was clamped on by screw pressure.

Rifle No.4 (and presumably No.5 Jungle Carbines) had replaceable bolt heads numbered 0,1,2,3 which were progressively longer. Thus in a gun with headspace that is slightly too long, you can switch to a higher number bolt head and reduce headspace. Incidentally, it is very rare to find a military .303 British gun that headspaces correctly according to SAAMI specifications. Go to NoGo gauges only differ by about 2 thousandths of an inch. If anyone cares, I can go find my gauges to confirm my memory.

For those of you who may be checking out 7.62 NATO guns, keep in mind that 7.62 NATO ISN'T .308 Winchester. The ammunition spec is pretty close, but the chamber radial dimensions are quite different. The headspace specs also have a greater tolerance between OK and BAD. IMHO, .308 Winchester headspace gauges CAN be used to ballpark test a 7.62 NATO gun to some extent. A 7.62 gun should chamber a .308 Go gauge. A 7.62 gun MAY chamber a .308 NoGo and still be in spec. If a 7.62 gun chambers a .308 Field (Field Reject) gauge, it is equivalent (or very close) to chambering a 7.62 NoGo which means it is out of spec.

In reloading for the .303 British, I highly recommend neck sizing EVEN IF your gun has proper headspace. Because the .303 British doesn't heaspace on the case shoulder, the typical military chamber has a shoulder VERY FAR FORWARD of that of the cartridge case. Thus, if you full length size, the case shoulder gets blown forward with each firing and will separate after a few firings. If you use range pickup brass or brass from other than the gun you are reloading for, Full length size for the first reload and never after. For this reason, it is a good idea to not interchange brass between different .303s if you have more than one. My personal opinion is that the Lee Collet dies are the most cost effective neck sizing dies around. I use them in lots of different calibers.

As usual when giving this kind of advice, Your Mileage May Vary and I take NO RESPONSIBILITY if you should decide to take the advice of some unknown person on the Internet and possibly blow yourself up.

Pardon me for being so long winded.
- Ivan.

[norab]

except for the Isaphore, all of them were .303, according to my notes the .307 was a Fazakerly.
Also for the No. 4's you can switch butt stocks (3 different lengths, S, M, L) to potentionally improve length of pull. All the No.5's (jungle Carbines) were fitted with the short butt stock with the rubber pad and still kick like mules compared to a normal Enfeld :icon_lol:

[Ivan]

A .303 British made by Fazakerly that has only .307 GROOVE diameter is an VERY unusual beast. Any idea how that happened, because that would be WAY out of spec. Is there a possibility that you measured a 5 groove slug wrong? Perhaps there was a rust ring that swaged the slug down too far?

There was a fellow in Falls Church, Virginia that had special tools to measure slugs with odd number grooves and did it only for the cost of shipping.

- Ivan.

[norab]

sorry for the delay, I answered yesterday but it is lost in cyberspace somewhere. according to my notes the bore showed evidence of using corrosive promers but nothing else visually evident. most of the bore sizes I measured were in the .312-.313 range, had one at .315 and that way out .317 ( Lithgow) One was a #4 Savage that ran .310 that would shoot better than a miltary rifle should. The .307 I shot with .30-30 bullets that were .307 diameter and it did fine. A friend had a #4 with grossly excessive headspace even with the longest bolt head so he had a gunsmith make up a tempered steel washer to go between the bolt head and bolt body that closed it up to acceptable limits.
Lest anyone is freaking out over this, if you shoot factory ammuniton only once and don't reload it's all sort of academic but I've never been that rich :icon_lol:

These events were nearly 35 years ago and Enfield were dirt cheap. I think the worst guns held in reserve stocks were released for sale first so that may explain a lot of it.

[Ivan]

Hi Norab,

We ARE talking about GROOVE diameter, right? Did you ever try to shoot the .303 that had a .307 groove diameter? Did it explode?

I know the No.4 Lee Enfield reasonably well. I can't see how a tempered washer would help things much at all. The bolt head is screwed into the bolt body using fairly fine threads. The thrust against the bolt is held by these threads. When screwing in the bolt head, generally it will rotate about 5 degrees or so further than perfect alignment with the Right / Lower Lug. I can't see how a washer will help since it is the threads are unchanged. Either you are lined up or you are back some multiple of the thread pitch. Perhaps the washer was put on the bolt face?

BTW, If a gun has excessive headspace, one method of using it with little danger is to shim the front of the rim to hold the case head against the bolt face. When fired, the case should blow out to fit the chamber (fire forming). If the shell is neck sized only, the shoulder is not bumped back and it now headspaces on the case shoulder. The only problem is that if headspace is long, there is a good chance the case is sitting on the bottom of the wider area of the chamber and isn't aligned well with the chamber.

- Ivan.

[norab]

yes indeed, groove diameter. as I mentioned above we used .307 diameter bullets originally designed for the .30-30. The first Enfield we picked up was so sloppy ( not the .307)that after that we checked headspace and slugged every one before we ever put a factory loaded round downrange out of it. We were out to obtain the best accuracy we could out of each one so we sometimes used teflon wrapped cast bullets to get better matches with the oversize bores. We weren't hunting we were out to wring out the most accuracy we could and MV or leathality were not considerations for us. That two piece stock and the system of trigger mounting always made it a challenge. In general, accuracy was much easier to obtain with a 98 Mauser, 03 Springfield, or #3/ M-1917

[Ivan]

I have always been impressed with the accuracy of the M1917s. I can't remember what results I had with the No.3 / P14 rifle. The Lee Enfields seem to shoot quite well if fed reasonable ammunition. The Two piece stock isn't all that hard to deal with as long as you aren't trying to glass bed the thing.

What do you mean by "Teflon wrapped" I can't see how that would stay in place when firing.

Attached are some photographs of a No.4 bolt assembly.
1311 Shows the bolt assembly with bolt head lined up and ready to fit into the rifle.
1313 Shows how much the bolt head rotates past alignment with the top / right lug.
1314 Shows the bolt head aligned but backed off one rotation.
1315 Shows the bolt head unscrewed so the threads are visible.

As you can see, putting a shim between the bolt head and bolt body doesn't make sense because the threads control the longitudinal alignment. Since the bolt head rotates past alignment with the bolt lug, the shoulder of the bolt head and bolt body do not contact when everything is aligned. Backing off one full rotation won't help because if your gun has THAT much excess headspace, it has more serious issues. Also, backing off one thread drastically changes the firing pin portrusion.

- Ivan.

[norab]

There was a trend for a while, (at least over here) to enable higher velocity with cast bullets without generating excessive lead fouling of the bore, to wrap the bearing surfaces of the cast bullet with plumber's teflon tape, after the fashion of the paper patching done in the late 1800's. we would coat the cast bullet with moly, then wrap it with the tape and seat it with a gas check when we sized it. allowed higher velocities without fouling the bore.

34373

some info here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=44143





as for the washer, however my freind and his gunsmith did it, it worked

[Willy]

Never did slug the bore on my 1908 SMLE as it shoots like a champ with late WWII milsurp ammo and decently with Remington green box. It just looks rougher than sin on the outside. Internally, it's in excellant shape.

Years ago, I had a 1916 SMLE with a barrel so oversize, that regular commerical 303 ammo would keyhole on the target.

I reload for the 44-40 and 357 Mag in rifles, but somehow never did pick up a set of 303 dies. I just don't shoot it enough to really justify buying the stuff to spread out into that caliber. Besides, I've still got a bunch of the surplus ammo including a cloth machine gun belt full of 303.

[Ivan]

Hi Norab,
I have heard of paper patching. From my understanding, it could do almost as well as a Jacketed bullet, but the problem was that it was too labour intensive. I never got into it myself though I can say that making paper cartridges for a percussion Sharps ranks right up there for labour intensive. I didn't think that plumbers teflon tape was strong enough to use this way. It seems way thin and stretchy and flexible. For cartridge cast stuff, I generally use a heated Lyman Lubrisizer and Alox sticks. At one point, I used Lee's Liquid Alox, but it picks up all kinds of crud. For BP cast, I use a mix of Crisco and Beeswax and Candle wax though I can't remember now what the proportions were.

Regarding the washer, where did it go??? I can't figure out where it would fit.


Hey Willy,
Get yourself a set of Lee's Collet and Full Length Sizing Dies for the .303 British. I think they call that their "Deluxe" set. Its cost these days is pretty close to ONE box of ammunition. The Lee seater isn't great, but passable. If you already reload for the other calibers, you have the rest of what you need except for supplies. If you reload, you won't have to worry about putting all that corrosive crud through your gun.

Another thing to note is that a keyholing rifle isn't necessarily due to an oversized bore. There is the possibility that there is a taper going the wrong way (Breech smaller than Muzzle) that would do the same thing. Or perhaps there is a tight spot some place that constricts the bullet.

- Ivan.

[norab]

never shot BP, just too danged dirty. Like you I rejected the Lee liquid for the same reasons. I went with regular Alox on low velocity loads and moly, teflon and gas check on the hotter stuff. As for the amount of labor involved, I did it for relaxation and didn't mind. If I needed higher velocity or some special performance I would use jacketed

[Ivan]

Here is a site I found from another forum which I believe is pretty good:

http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/main.htm

I have done a lot of boolit casting but only with wheel weights. I prefer not to do anything that requires a harder alloy. Thus .45-70 and .40-65 and .45 ACP bullets are viable but .357 is not. The interesting thing is that my .45-70 loads run perhaps 300 fps faster than my cast bullet .357 but still don't lead the barrel. (500 grain bullet at 1450 fps.) I believe this is because there isn't a jump to the forcing cone and sudden twist of rifling after the bullet is moving at a pretty good speed.

If the bullet needs a gas check, I may try it without. The gas check just seems like too much bother and expense.

- Ivan.

[Warrant]

Last week i agreed to a purchase with my gunclub;
I'm taking over the very nice Lee Enfield Nr4Mk1 with scope (and original Enfield scope fit) i talked about earlier in this thread.
In about two months it will be officially mine, with licence.

Besides the gunclub owned cal 308, 303, 223 and 22's i regularly shoot my own .22 Walther/Umarex Air Magnum 850 Hunter equipped with bipod, weaver-rail and red-dot scope (exchangeable with a 3-9 X 44 scope on same weaver mount) with very good results at ranges between 10-25-100 meter.

Below an image of my current set:

50797

[Ivan]

Now THAT is a cool rifle. I have a scope on a No.4 but it is on a aftermarket no-gunsmithing mount. I haven't bought .303 British ammunition in quite a while. I generally load my own with 150 grain soft point hunting bullets over IMR 4895. Shooting is definitely getting more expensive.

Yur gonna hafta post a photograph when you get your rifle.

- Ivan.

[Warrant]

Thanks Ivan

Will upload images once i have my LE Nr4 Mk1 :salute:

Here some more shot's of my current one:

51049 51050 51051

Recently i replaced my 3-9X44 scope with a 11mm mount for a Picatinny rail and two scopes. Now i'm able to use the original fiber aiming, the red dot and a nice scope without having to re-calibrate them each time i switch. I really enjoy this set with it's new capabilities at the gun-club (both the 25m and 100m range).

[Ivan]

It took me a while to realise that you were discussing an AIR Rifle. I have a pretty fair Air Rifle as well but have never shot it. From what I have been reading since I bought it, it probably won't do what I expected. It is a RWS 460 which claims to hit 1100 fps in .22 caliber. The reality might be more like 850 fps which puts it about even with the Sheridan stuff. I picked the .22 caliber rather than the .177 in this gun because I was concerned that having the pellet go transonic would cause accuracy problems. Turns out the 1300 fps claimed in advertising might have been overrated as well. I still have the Crosman 1377 pistol and 2100 rifle from back when I was a kid but the seals on both are not in good shape any more.

- Ivan.

[Warrant]

Finally received my gun-permit, and my LE Nr4 Mk1 rifle. It came with a scope mount and scope (4 x 32, of unknown Japanese making). The scope mount is locally manufactured as far as i know, and supports 11mm rail scopes. Since the scope is not an original LE supplement, my quest is to find original LE scope & mount. This 11mm rail mount will be modified with a 11mm to picatinny converter and a more powerfull scope. The plan is to visit rifle-ranges with ranges up to 300m later this year, with some fellow rifle owners from the club. With a good scope i can then try out different ammo-types.

Below, images of my Lee Enfield (+ one with my disabled LE Nr1 Mk3 rifle for size reference)

[Warrant]

After a firm search on the web, i found a suitable weaver rail for my recently acquired Enfield. It will replace the rear aiming device and still allow me to remove and replace the bolt (according to the manufacturer that is), without constantly having to remove the rail.
Wonder is any of you have experience with this rail?
Below are the images of the rail (rifle in second picture is not mine, i still have to purchase the rail):

5721857219

[Ivan]

I have either a B-Square or S&K mount for the No.4 Lee Enfield. It works well enough but you have to remove the rear sight to install it. Yes, you can remove the bolt with the mount installed. I have a Montgomery Ward Western Field 3-9X scope installed. It isn't the brightest scope but holds up pretty well. I have bigger telescopes, but they are way too big to look right on this gun.

Which number bolt head is on your gun? Does it check out well for headspace? For reliable functioning for military use, the headspace is typically set a touch long. I prefer better case life when reloading, so I set the headspace shorter with a higher number bolt head. No.4 bolt heads come numbered 0-3. I did the same when rebuilding my No.1 Mk.III* way back, but that one isn't so easy because there aren't numbered bolt heads. I just bought about 4 bolts (all new) and luckily found one combination that both looked new AND had tight heaspace. That No.1 I call "Frankenstein" because I believe it has pieces from about 7 different rifles in it. Condition is excellent until you look at the stamps and markings and see that almost none of them actually match.

As for looking for Original mounts, I believe the only ones were on the No.4 Mk.I(T) rifles. The problem is that they were welded or brazed onto the receivers and needed to be lined up precisely when brazing. I believe the scopes were serial numbered to the gun. There are a few more modifications that were found on the true Lee Enfield sniper guns. The most obvious is that the front action screw has what looks like a triangular sling swivel on it. Barrels for the sniper guns were always 5 groove, never 2 groove.

It is also possible to lighten the second stage of the trigger with VERY little effort, but I personally would not take that too far unless you happen to have the No.4 Mk.II with the trigger attached to the body rather than the trigger guard.

If you are up for a bit of gunsmithing, there are some pretty good instructions for accuracy improvements which I have stashed away somewhere.

Congratulations!
- Ivan.

[Warrant]

Here is an update regarding my LE Nr4 Mk2 (as i recently discovered it to be).
I replaced the back sight with an overhead weaver scope mount that allows me to remove and replace the gun bolt without problems. The scope is a Walther 3-9x44 Sniper scope (interim, since i'll be looking for a scope with better focus & magnification).
Below some pic's of the new situation (spotting scope in 1th pic is a 30-90x90 scope), and the last pic is a bolt close-up especially for Ivan:

60207 60208 60209 60210

[Ivan]

Hello Warrant,

Unfortunately I did not see this thread until all the images had departed..... What a shame.

- Ivan.

[Warrant]

Hello Warrant,

Unfortunately I did not see this thread until all the images had departed..... What a shame.

- Ivan.

No worries :-) Today i asked a buddy of mine to take footage of me shooting the good o'll Enfield (spec's have changed since my last post). Wrapped it together and put it on Youtube: http://youtu.be/-f0k_2xxfec

If you want to have details regarding my rifle, just let me know.

Best regards, Warrant :salute::wavey:

[Ivan]

Cool Video!

A minor safety comment: You should wear some safety glasses next time.

How well did the rifle do? You seem to shoot from a very high prone position.

- Ivan.