Tail dragger procedures

[PRB]

A co-worker of mine has a Cessna 182. I got to ride in it one day, and I was surprised at one (among many) differences between real planes and FS planes. In the real C-182, the tail came up within only a couple seconds into the take off roll. Also, it came up with significant authority. In FS, the tail comes up very slowly, and not until almost up to take off speed. In real tail draggers, does the pilot push the yoke forward early into the take off roll to lift the tail? I didn’t notice if my friend did that, and forgot to ask later. In FS, it really doesn’t work. You have to be going pretty fast before you can force the tail up. It makes sense to me that the prop wash alone might even be sufficient to allow the tail to be forced up, even while stationary…

[CodyValkyrie]

Every aircraft is different. The Corsair was one such plane where the tail came up very quickly.

A2A reproduced this effect in the Piper Cub, and every plane subsequently.... a first for Flight Simulator. As you suggest the prop wash for planes like the Cub creates enough lift on the tail to allow it to rise quickly. You can hold the brakes of your Cub and roll on the throttle, and using your elevator do complete and controllable brake stands. Just be extremely cautious, and please don't try this in your real plane lol.

[lawdawg]

Hey Paul, good afternoon from Alaska.
Say, I am just wondering if you were in either a Cessna 180 or 185?
Those are both tail-draggers. The 182, not so much.

In FS, if you have either the Carenado 185 with Bernt Stolle's airfile mod, A2A's cub or Flight Replica's Super-cub with Bernt's mods... , the tail comes up like it should IRL.

The stick should not have to be pushed forward to achieve this.

[PRB]

Hey Paul, good afternoon from Alaska.
Say, I am just wondering if you were in either a Cessna 180 or 185?
Those are both tail-draggers. The 182, not so much.

In FS, if you have either the Carenado 185 with Bernt Stolle's airfile mod, A2A's cub or Flight Replica's Super-cub with Bernt's mods... , the tail comes up like it should IRL.

The stick should not have to be pushed forward to achieve this.

Rgr, must have been either 180 or 185. Not sure which. Certainly not a 182 :)

[fliger747]

Paul I have a lot of time in super Cubs and 185's and some in the 180. All have tailwheel steering which is really only effective for slow speed ground handling. The decision to lift the tail or not early often depends on the runway. Tailwheels are small and fragile on rough fields and are best relieved of contact with the ground in those situations. Also getting the tail up helps fwd visibility. However there can be a lot of gyro precession if you push it up early, so always use what you need on the rudders. Generally the tail comes up nicely on it's own due to the prop blast. FSX does not replicate this well, as you noted. Doing a FD of such planes always leads to some frustration. I once experimentally used a second phantom tail wheel (not visible) that was very long travel and soft sprung, to simulate this.

FS tail draggers are a lot easier to fly than the real ones, excepting that you have a good seat of the pants feel in the real planes.
Cheers: T

[PRB]

Interesting. All this reminds me of the old saying "keep things as simple as possible, but no simpler..." In the Flying Wild Alaska series, the COO guy (Jim) lands his Cessna 180 (or 185) on a sand bar along the river, and keeps the tail wheel off the dirt during most of the roll out. This is probably deliberate, for the reasons you mentioned. When I flew in my friend's 180, it was from a smooth paved runway, but the improved visibility certainly seemed worth the extra rudder effort to keep gyro effects under contol. The invisible tail wheel is an interesting solution to this in FS!

[T6flyer]

FS tail draggers are a lot easier to fly than the real ones, excepting that you have a good seat of the pants feel in the real planes.
Cheers: T

I 100% agree with this, but in the real world, sometimes you have a not so good feeling in your pants when things go horribly wrong - been there I'm ashamed to say, but then again no flight is like the next and its all one big learning curve :)

Martin

[txnetcop]

I learned to fly in a Bonanza but I bought a fully restored 1948 Cessna 140 taildragger...as forgiving as that aircraft was it took a while to get the tail-dragger ground handling, take-off and landing down to less than an 8 pucker factor. I guess I was a slow-learner. I can't think of anything more sickening than a bad taildragger landing...especially if that tailwheel came down too early. Until I learned how to take-off and land the correct way I used to call it 2 min of panic followed by hours of shear but slow delight followed by 10 minutes of approach terror. I had never experienced that panic in tricycle gear aircraft. It took a compassionate old Korean War Corsair pilot turned General Aviation CFI at Stinson Field in San Antonio to straighten me out and reduce my parts costs.

I have not seen one simulator that does a good job of replicating tail lift when taking off so I help it out a little with forward stick...the exceptions are the A2A Cub, P-47, P-40. and Spitfire, Piglet's P-6, Flight Replica's L-4 and Boomerang-these seem as close to the real thing as you get in a cheap PC simulator. Simulated weather conditions also play a part.
Ted

[PRB]

I learned to fly in a Bonanza but I bought a fully restored 1948 Cessna 140 taildragger...as forgiving as that aircraft was it took a while to get the tail-dragger ground handling, take-off and landing down to less than an 8 pucker factor. I guess I was a slow-learner. I can't think of anything more sickening than a bad taildragger landing...especially if that tailwheel came down too early. Until I learned how to take-off and land the correct way I used to call it 2 min of panic followed by hours of shear but slow delight followed by 10 minutes of approach terror. I had never experienced that panic in tricycle gear aircraft. It took a compassionate old Korean War Corsair pilot turned General Aviation CFI at Stinson Field in San Antonio to straighten me out and reduce my parts costs.

I have not seen one simulator that does a good job of replicating tail lift when taking off so I help it out a little with forward stick...the exceptions are the A2A Cub, P-47, P-40. and Spitfire, Piglet's P-6, Flight Replica's L-4 and Boomerang-these seem as close to the real thing as you get in a cheap PC simulator. Simulated weather conditions also play a part.
Ted

Great story Ted! I have a few (very few) left seat hours in Cessna 150s and Grumman Lynx (from a few years ago), but not nearly enough to get to the point where I could say things like "FS planes are harder to land than real ones", as I've heard a couple times here. I'm sure it's true, just not for me. That real tail draggers in particular are more difficult than FS ones is more in line with my pitiful level of experience at flying real planes, even "nose draggers." :) Off to play with the FSX Boomerang and pay more attention to the take off...

[T6flyer]

I have not seen one simulator that does a good job of replicating tail lift when taking off so I help it out a little with forward stick...the exceptions are the A2A Cub, P-47, P-40. and Spitfire, Piglet's P-6, Flight Replica's L-4 and Boomerang-these seem as close to the real thing as you get in a cheap PC simulator. Simulated weather conditions also play a part.
Ted

Thanks for this.....as a new convertee to FSX, am always on the look out for something as close to the real thing as possible...otherwise its just a 'game' and not a simulator as it should be. Think the closest I've ever got to the real thing was the sadly discontinued Aeroworx T-6 project, which always made me sweat until I had shut down the engine. I'm not that keen on aeroplanes that seem to run on rails, I like a bit of a challenge, the same as it is at times in real life.

Best wishes,

Martin

[tracyq144]

I have little to contribute to this thread, and it comes from many years ago, but the one thing I do remember about my taildragger experience (Aeronca Champion) was the "dance" required on the rudder pedals.

Quick, short "jabs", exciting but scary to a novice. I have yet to see this replicated in any FSX airplane.