Remininces from an old sailor

[Helldiver]

Late last summer I had the good fortune of sitting in a Hellcat. Something I had done hundreds of times before. But that was 66 years ago when I was in the Flight Test Hanger of the A&R Department in Jacksonville, Florida.
We’d take the newly remanufactured planes and do taxi tests. Run hydraulic checks, electrical checks do compass deviations and align the gun patterns. So I’d be starting F- 6s two or three times a day. You never gave it much thought.
But when I sat in the plane last summer, I’ll be darned, I had forgotten all the settings for Prop, Throttle, Mixture, even where the prime button was and which switch was for the Coffman starter. The pilot set me straight. But it showed how much you memory dims over the years. I can remember some things.
The skipper’s dog biting the contrail caused by the propeller. The FG1D that Bob Hansen jumped out of, when it caught gloriously on fire, releasing the toe brakes. Robby Robinson diving his new Bearcat in the runway right in front of me. But little details escape me.
So I look at some of these latter day writings about what happened in World War Two with great deal of doubt, even though someone writes it that had part in the action. Kids that write things that happened 40 years before they were even born, they’re way out of line.
For instance the SB2C was never called SOB Second Class. It was always a "Two See" or Helldiver. Unlike the SBD, the Helldiver had to do it’s teething in wartime. But they corrected the errors and it became a great airplane and sank more shipping than any other aircraft. It continued on after WWII and was used by the French during the Viet Nam war.
But I am surprised and sort of angry, at what I thought I had down pat, was lost to me. In my mind, I can still ride a bike. But now, at my age, I don’t know.

[JAllen]

I'll soon be 64 and awfully young for a while longer. Your memories and views are precious and I stand in awe. Thank you for sharing.

Jim :salute:

[txnetcop]

Helldiver you're still a hero of the GREATEST GENERATION in my book!
Ted

[flyer01]

Well said Sir.

flyer01:salute:

[Curtis P40]

You then Sir, have "forgotten" more than I will ever know.

[Quicksand]

I'll echo P40's post, Helldiver...:salute::medals: God bless you, friend...

[Pips]

In my mind, I can still ride a bike.

Mate, when you get down to brass tacks, that's all that counts! That's the sum of us, our memories, our experiences. You did it! We can only dream of it. :salute:

[Navy Chief]

Helldiver,

Thank you for that story, and everything you share with us on this forum. Your generation was indeed the greatest, as Texnetcop remarked.

Navy Chief

[Warrant]

Story much appreciated, sir! :salute:

[Quixoticish]

So I look at some of these latter day writings about what happened in World War Two with great deal of doubt, even though someone writes it that had part in the action. Kids that write things that happened 40 years before they were even born, they’re way out of line.

I appreciate what you're saying Helldiver but if this were true we'd have almost no history books about anything, the "kids" certainly aren't "way out of line". As long as we take each and every source into careful consideration and try to use many varied sources to build up a picture of the past then there is no harm in the study of history, in fact it should be actively encouraged. Our intrinsic core concept of the human condition is based upon events of the past ranging from the comparatively recent to the incredibly ancient; we can't escape a past that will continue to define us as we work towards the future and it is our duty to study it in as comprehensive, open minded and unbiased a manner as possible.

[jp]

Helldiver, I'm not trying to be mean, but my alarm bells are sounding. You are claiming to have flown quite a few different types of aircraft, including dive bombers, and fighters, both of which require different syllabi to fly, if my recollection serves me well. Also, many times you have used the "new" navy designation device, which is not in keeping with the system used in world war two. You have not done this just once, but several times, including in reference to the F8F, which you called the F-8F, which would be an unmade variant of the vought F-8 crusader, or F8U. Also, you claim to have inspected an Me-109 postwar at NAS Jacksonville? I may be out of line, but I am fairly sure that any army captures would have been tested at an army facility. Why NAS Jacksonville? Navy captures were tested west coast at naval air facilities, as far as i know. The fact you use the Post Korean naming system disputes your tales. I apologize in advance if I am proven wrong, but my neighbor was a fighter pilot in world war 2, and I live down the road from a fighter pilot. These discrepencies need to be addressed. I hope you prove me wrong.

[N2056]

No...you are trying to be mean. It's as plain as day, and totally out of line considering the gentleman you are referring to. Ever heard of a typo?!

[CodyValkyrie]

Helldiver has nothing to prove.

As a former USAF airman, I salute you Helldiver. I'll be sure to correct anyone who calls it a "Son of a bitch second class," and do so with pride.
:salute:

JP, I have been around aviators my whole life. I know some who currently, or did fly some of these beautiful warbirds. Many of them have great stories to tell.... if there is one thing I have learned however is that we now have the luxury to criticize that which we have not experienced.

A great friend of mine who is now deceased flew P-51 Mustang's. I once asked her roughly what the standard manifold pressure was when she took off... honestly, she couldn't remember off hand. I make mistakes all the time when discussing my work of which was only a few years ago in the USAF. It is what it is.

Sometimes being right is the least important thing.

[grog swiller]

You are claiming to have flown quite a few different types of aircraft, including dive bombers, and fighters, both of which require different syllabi to fly, if my recollection serves me well.

Being a long term lurker prior to registering here, I've read quite alot of HD's posts and comments. He's always left me with the impression that he was a mechanic/maintainer back in the day. I don't recall him ever saying anything about being a pilot.

[jp]

Yes, see I knew this would happen. People are always inclined to trust. I too am that way, but it is a great dishonor to those who were members of the greatest generation when someone tells tales and spins stories about "their" old days. All he needs is to go more in depth on his career, if it adds up, which I sincerely hope it will, fine. But also know that impersonating a serviceman is illegal, and very low. This is an Internet board, you are taking letters on a screen at face value. My neighbor was shot down and wounded over holland, evaded capture for months, and returned to the skies during the war. He can tell every detail, run off checklists, tell you where his plane was hit, and what heading. He also calls his mount a P-51. For every person who impersonates, it discredits your fathers, uncles, cousins, etc who gave their lives for their countries. This is true for both allied and axis. So, let me ask you this. Would you ever forget what the correct designation of your weapon was? The thing that took you to and from battle, around which every day of your life for a few years was centered? I think not. I wouldn't be as thrown off except that the sb2c is mentioned in correct form and designation system.

[N2056]

Right. Why not just come out and say you think he's lying?
This is sick. I'm out of this one.

[grog swiller]

Uh, mechanics/maintainers start, taxi, and run-up planes quite a bit. I remember him talking about doing these things, as he does in this post. Maybe you read more into his comments than what was there. You seem to be under the impression he's claimed to be a pilot. I've never read it that way.

[jp]

Ok. I give. He could indeed be a maintinance person, and perhaps I read it incorrectly. My apologies. Sorry to you readers, as well as HD.That is a valid point. However, I would still like to know more about your career, as you seem to be well traveled in the WWII aircraft world.

My sincere apologies for bringing up this topic,

jp

[N2056]

Works for me. I tend to get a bit worked up when Helldiver tries to say something interesting and it goes this way. I have a lot of respect for the guy! :salute:

JP, no hard feelings? :wavey:

[jp]

No hard feelings. I don't hold grudges, hopefully, you guys, and especially helldiver won't either.

[Helldiver]

To set the story straight, I never said or inferred I was a pilot. I was an Aviation Machinists Mate 2nd Class. I went to NAS Memphis for Radioman - Gunners School. They also threw in Aerology.
I was sent to NAS Jax and was assigned to the Flight Test Hanger, A&R Division. We had three lines F6-Fs F4-U/FGs and SB2Cs. They would try a produce one aircraft a day.
From there I went to NAS Quonset Point the homeport of the USS Leyte. CV-32. I was assigned to Attack Squadron 74 that flew SB2Cs. I went on four cruises on her and when she went into dry dock in April of 1948 in Brooklyn Navy Yard, I took my discharge. I served from June of 1944 to April of 1948. Like a lot of kids my age, I joined when I was 16.
Now you say you know somebody that flew P-51s. If his memory is as good as mine is, I’ll bet he’ll have a time in starting one up. He may think he can do it but when faced with the real thing the memory fades. That's the point I was trying to make.
I read a book called George Washington’s War, which I recommend to everybody. It’s the history of the Revolution but taken from letters to Washington or letters by him. This is real history, not some fiction that somebody dreamed up.

[frankwi]

OMG JP ! You are so freaking smart ! We are all so impressed with your knowledge !

You try to discredit an honorable man just to shows us all how brilliant you are ! Good job.

Helldriver thank you for your service, I am truly grateful. By the way JP, how have you served your country ? And how old are you ? I'm guessing around 12 ?

[Cag40Navy]

OMG JP ! You are so freaking smart ! We are all so impressed with your knowledge !

You try to discredit an honorable man just to shows us all how brilliant you are ! Good job.

Helldriver thank you for your service, I am truly grateful. By the way JP, how have you served your country ? And how old are you ? I'm guessing around 12 ?
He has corrected his mistakes. Everything has been settled so lets calm down.

And HD, thanks for your service!

[wombat666]

Play nice children.
:173go1:
HD is one of the few WWII serviceman we have remaining, and furthermore, despite his severe health setbacks he has a remarkable memory.

[delta_lima]

OMG JP ! You are so freaking smart ! By the way JP, how have you served your country ? And how old are you ? I'm guessing around 12 ?

Yeah ... that was a really "freaking" profound comment ...

I'm all for respecting vets. I spent a decade in uniform, and I'm sure a great percentage of the members have done that and more. Yet this thread has nothing to do with FSX and ultimately proves nothing - Mods, my vote is to move it to the Cantina or somewhere else where this all belongs.

dl

[deathfromafar]

My late uncle was a retired MCPO who joined during early 1942 when he was just shy of his 16th birthday. He like another member of my family lied about their age & didn't get caught. It was quite common back in those desperate days. My aunt showed me many of his records including his enlistment and discharge records. I can't imagine many pre-18 year olds this day & time manning up to go put their asses on the line like those folks did back in the 40's as well as many did before that time. I know my uncle had a very hard life during the depression and despite ending up in arduous & combat conditions in the Pacific, it was an improvement in many aspects for his life and future compared to what he had come from. When I look at photos of those young servicemen back then, I am struck at how young they look going in and how at in their early to mid 20's coming back, they look aged 20+ years. They all grew up very quickly and as we all know, they did what many now would call the impossible.

When we read & hear the words and stories from those Veterans who are still amongst us now(and those passed), soak as much of it in as you can. When they've all finally Crossed the Bar, those memories, histories will become the solemn responsibility of those of us who remain, to keep alive...

Thanks for sharing Helldiver:salute:

[crashaz]

Book smart is one thing.... which I am plenty of...especially when it concerns Pearl Harbor.... but I would never question someone who lived it or correct a Pearl Harbor survivor when they told me a story.

I felt honored that they shared it with me.

Thanks for sharing HD... and never mind the nitpickers... I know I don't have to tell you.... you ol' salt! :salute:

[Willy]

Just to set the record straight on how the Navy will do things at times. Just because you're officially a certain rating, doesn't mean that they won't put you to doing other things as part of your normal duties. HD was an Aviation Machinist Mate but he also did radioman and gunner duties.

I was an Engineman for my entire career. A marine diesel mechanic to put it bluntly (Machinist Mate Motor Aux back in HD's day). But in my 20 years, as part of my regular daily duties at one time or another I was also a crane operator, a boat coxswain, Auto technician, Movie theater operator (projectionist and ran the cash register), Chief Engineer & 2nd in command on a tugboat who also drove the boat to relieve the tugmaster when necessary, linguist, Nuclear/Non-Nuclear Quality Assurance Inspector on fast attack subs, Ships Training Officer including giving advancement exams, Manpower Analyst and Readiness Coordinator for the PacFlt Amphibs, Division Chief, Admin Assistant to the Chief Engineer, Navy Court Liason to Norfolk City Courts and whatever else they could dream up for me to do in my spare time.

No way do I remember how to do all of those jobs now and HD's got a lot more water under his bridge than I do mine. Cut the guy some slack, he's the real deal.

[Astoroth]

JP,

You may have read and studied your history, and heard about it from your neighbor down the road, but Helldiver LIVED it.

For you to attempt to discredit him the way you have certainly brings you no honor.


'nuff said...

[TARPSBird]

My hat's off to Helldiver for his service, and for his excellent recollection of his experiences in NavAir. :salute:
For the past week or so I've been reading several "VFR on top" stories from F-8 Crusader pilots who've found themselves in trouble above weather with electrical/instrument failures and dropping fuel gauges. Even though the event may have happened 40+ years ago, they remember the details like it happened yesterday. These same guys might lose their car keys around the house or forget their wedding anniversaries but they remember the scary stuff they survived and what they achieved as aviators because it's what makes them who they are. It's the same with all of us. I can remember details of past cruises - ports we hit, airstrikes, guys we lost, etc. - like I just walked off the ship yesterday, but I gotta have my granddaughters' birthdays on my computer so I don't forget them. Still, even in our old age we can usually tell who among us is the real deal and who's the poser. ;)

[expat]

Helldiver, as a contemporary of my late father, also a Navy man and WWII veteran, there's no class like your class.

[roger-wilco-66]

[...]
I was an Aviation Machinists Mate 2nd Class. I went to NAS Memphis for Radioman - Gunners School. They also threw in Aerology.
[...]


Sir,
I want to thank you for sharing your experiences and viewpoints here. In my opinion, this is a valuable addition to this forum. Please continue to do that. Some people really should have a bit more respect (and tolerance) for men or women who have "been there and done that".


These discussions here sometimes remind me when my grand dad started to talk about his experiences in WW2 (he flew Heinkel He-111 and later Ju-88s). Everybody was like "here he goes again" and "yawn", except for me who listened to every word he said. He's gone for about 20 years now, and today I miss him for those talks we've had because I have a much deeper understanding of things today and would love to have him around.



:salute:
Mark

[Helldiver]

I've had a couple of friends who flew for Germany. They were just like us. We joined the service because it was the thing to do. We were given a job and did it to the best of our ability.
Although on different sides, I held them with great regard. One of them was a Commander of a Night Fighter Squadron.

[thunder100]

Hello Helldiver

I appreciate as late born(52 now) what you say !

my friend (now 94 and unfortunately since 3 month its going downhill) flew for germany from Legion Condor till the end(not the very end as there was no more fuel to fly)

He still has(had) a sharp mind and could help some projects in the FS world.But even then it was like you say-->what is this lever?-->You should know!its the split flaps of the 109-->ah yes but it was not at that place on a G-14.

Point is that he will die and even trying to conserve as much of his knowledge we will lose the bigger part.And losing this will make us poorer for sure

So keep teaching us.At least the virtual world will keep it for a while-and ignore the ignorants

Roland

[guzler]

Kids that write things that happened 40 years before they were even born, they’re way out of line.



On that basis, does that mean that authors of dinosaur books are out of line ? I have alot of respect for HD's commitment in the forces, hopefully your wording didn't mean to offend authors of great books despite not physically being there themselves.

[CodyValkyrie]

Now you say you know somebody that flew P-51s. If his memory is as good as mine is, I’ll bet he’ll have a time in starting one up. He may think he can do it but when faced with the real thing the memory fades. That's the point I was trying to make.
Everyone I know that flew the P-51 described it as needing more than two hands to start. My friend that is now deceased said that it was not like riding a bicycle, in that you must spend time with her regularly or you would simply forget many things.

I wrote down as much as I could about my friend's experience with the P-51. It was the least I could do.

You have made a very good original post Helldiver. As always you have my respects sir.

[warchild]

Ya know. It's real hard for me to be nice right now. I wake up to this thread, and i am at a loss for words. I'm livid.
I HIGHLY recommend that if a word or phrase in any post triggers you that you walk away from it till you can come back and re-read the post to get it right. HD NEVER said he was a pilot. In fact, he's always been one of the most honest and upstanding members of this or any forum he's ever been on. Thats just his personality. Further, he's an american veteran, which may not mean a hoot to some people from elsewhere in the world, but to us it means quite a lot. It also means that like many others here, he's my brother as I'm a veteran as well. My job used to be standing on a perimeter making sure the guys behond me could sleep eat and get drunk ( or stoned ) as safely as possible. I'm still doing that job here.. Anyone has a problem with one of my brothers, it better be real, or you better just walk away, Because i will kill your sorry ass from this server.
Pam

[Prowler1111]

I´ve been dealing with Bob since the Skyraider Vol1 days (and that´s around 2005), one of the best source for info on vintage aircraft around, also a proud WW2 veteran, he has commit some mistakes, but who doesnt, if i sit in front of a 1995 dodge neon, i´m sure i will try to figure out things again, and i had one for 8 yrs!he sat behind a machine gun in a Helldiver during WW2 and if he says it was called "Nancy" back then, who am i to disprove it? he was THERE, i wasnt even on my dad´s gonads back then, so...
Cheers Helldiver, btw, did you got my PM?

Best regards
Prowler

[sgtreilly]

I can relate to HD. I am no way as old as he is but the mind still dumps old routine stuff. I remember many things while in Viet Nam but some of the routine things I had to do every day, I have forgotten. I was an AME (ejection seat mech.) in the Marine Corps. In the Navy and Marine Corps, that means you work on ejection seats, obviously, canopy jettison systems, airconditioning, pressurization, and breathing O2. As a Jarhead I was trained as a grunt as well. At one point they put me on the flightline and made me a plane captain (crew chief for the Air Force folk). On occasions, if an engine mech. could not be had, I would be towed to the high-power turn-up area to test engines. Was I suppose to do it? Nope. Did I have to do it? Yup. Could I remember how to start up an A-4E? Not in your life. If I tried it now, I would most likely blow my ass off into a wall. It's funny. I still remember the sound of a J-52 engine and the smell. God I will never forget the smell of JP. Glad you still have the memories you have Hell Diver. Keep sharing them with us.

[JAllen]

Oh to have had the experience of HD and others! I maintained ECM equipment in the USAF for 22 yrs. The list of aircraft I have worked is a long one and the list of electronic systems I was managed is far longer. At age 64 there isn't much I could do with any of it today, even if any of it is still in the active inventory. Likely would have a hard time getting external power on any aircraft today. But, I can still tell the stories of what happened in SEA, Europe, and Korea tours of duty. Especially with a memory jogger or two. I always read Helldivers posts. The SB2C is close to his heart and for me it is the F105G Wild Weasel. I will trade memories with him anytime and wish I could experience the prop blast of a front line fighter and trade him the everlasting smell of JP4 or of the cockpit of a B52.

I vote we keep HD around as long as he can tell us stories and give us insight into a time we can only fantasize about. Soon enough only a few of us Vietnam era vets will be left so tell us more HD, tell us more.

Jim

[rvn817j]

In the Navy (as in other services) the mechs are responsible for all types of post maintenance aircraft checks (and, when new aircraft are delivered from the manufacturer or from depot [heavy] level maintenance, acceptance tests) as HD has described. They are sent to schools to learn how to start the aircraft engines and run various aircraft systems. Anyone that questions HD on this issue is uninformed at best (but more likely a complete boob).

I've read lots of posts, by lots of folks and there is not one person I have read that has the experiences of HD. HD is a treasure trove of information and I am very thankful for the opportunity to benefit from his knowledge (not to mention the fact that he risked his life everyday during WWII to do his job).

I stand with Warchild to defend my brothers-in-arms (but have no ability to crash their server access or anything like that). But, be forewarned that I will verbally abuse anyone that fails to respect what our WWII veterans have to say.

Thanks HD for all you have risked and accomplished. JTJ (CDR, USNR-R)

[CP1207]

I had a WWII P-51 pilot as tour guide at our local museum a couple of months ago. I learned many things about flying combat off Formosa, as well as fuel tank balance that was way different from how the ETO guys did it. He learned a few things from me about aircraft they had in their collection that he had no idea of gleaned from my vast chairborne studies.
We compared notes about the value of .45 caliber handguns, he having to use it to take out the crew of the enemy boat that was coming to fish him out of the water after his wingman cut the tail of his Mustang off, forcing him to bail out. Me telling him how I upgraded my duty weapon to a .45 so I could take out rabid animals with one shot rather than having to explain to residents why I was shooting multiple rounds from my 9mm to do the same job.
Find a vet and share a story! You will not regret it.

Those of you that survived any of our wars or that served in case you were needed, please continue to give us your history and perspective. It is valued and cherished and needs to be shared.:salute:

In a defense of jp, or pj, or how the he!! do I start my plane in FSX (sorry, I'm 53, lost my attention to detail) there was a guy using the handle of flynavy on fark.com who led people to believe he was a carrier pilot flying missions for Desert Dust Up II somewhere in the Gulf. Kept it going for months until he screwed something up and got caught. Ticked off a huge amount of fans who had been sending him encouraging messages.

[Dexdoggy]

HD, I tell you, that though it was long before my time - I know if it were not for all you brave Navy lads who met the enemy in the seas off our coast (and many others) and saved our country things would be awfully different now! From a thankful Australian, :salute:

[flyer01]

Helldiver, this video is for you.
What we forget is that what the U.S. Soldier like Helldiver was doing while in the service was not to make War but to make Peace.

flyer01:salute:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsLmjGQAdDA

[Paul K]

HD, I tell you, that though it was long before my time - I know if it were not for all you brave Navy lads who met the enemy in the seas off our coast (and many others) and saved our country things would be awfully different now! From a thankful Australian, :salute:

The Coral Sea ? Quite possibly, but you can equally thank your own on the Kokoda Trail. And even if the Japanese had taken Port Moresby, I don't think history would have turned out hugely different, ultimately.

[Helldiver]

I thank all of you for your kind words no matter how much I did not deserve them.
At age 16, after the senseless and stupid Kamikaze attacks, especially the U.S.S. Franklin, I was extremely motivated and joined the Navy.
As it turned out, I always loved airplanes and what did the Navy do, they let me play with them. What a marvelous bunch of toys for a 17-year-old kid. For that, I owe the U.S. Navy a whole lot.
If I have been of help in a small way to somebody, I am glad to do it. But what I have gotten out of this forum is far, far, greater.