I'm in real trouble...help!

[Rami]

Hey all,

The video card I purchased, though it was "by the numbers" well within my PC's specifications, will not work with a 400W power supply. The old video card is already on its way back to GearyMcS, so right now I have no video at all on the desktop, and there's a metal plate on this PC over the VGA port, I guess that's the way the computer was built.

GearyMcS,

I need to know if this PC can handle a bigger power supply before ordering. Otherwise, I'll have to return the card and get something else.

Any other technical expertise here would be appreciated. We already tried disconnecting the optical drives and other things, no dice.

[sc7500]

It's always been my experience that a system will only draw as much power as it needs....

So putting a 750Watt PS into a machine that only needs 500 shouldn't hurt.

The challenge is if all the connections will be backwards-compatible.

Where IS Dirty when you need a tech ???? :isadizzy:
SC
:kilroy:

Regarding that "Metal Plate over the video port" deal - Tin Snips !!!!!

If there's a video port on the MoBo, ACCESS IT ! At least you can use the shared memory to get some projects completed. When you have a new Video Board, a little duct tape will seal that hole right back up....

[nomad13]

I've built a few computers, sc7500 is essentially correct; power supplies are rated by maximum output, rarely does one run at max.
Some cases have the PSU on top, some on the bottom, you'll need to check that. Here is a Power Supply Calculator (http://educations.newegg.com/tool/psucalc/index.html) to help you figure out what kind of unit you might need.
Not sure what you mean by a "metal plate over the VGA port", a photo might help there.
Is your computer a factory model(Dell, HP) or custom built?

[Rami]

I've built a few computers, sc7500 is essentially correct; power supplies are rated by maximum output, rarely does one run at max.

Some cases have the PSU on top, some on the bottom, you'll need to check that. Here is a Power Supply Calculator (http://educations.newegg.com/tool/psucalc/index.html) to help you figure out what kind of unit you might need.

Not sure what you mean by a "metal plate over the VGA port", a photo might help there.
Is your computer a factory model(Dell, HP) or custom built?

See for yourself...

This is a custom job. GearyMcS is the one who built it, and here are the motherboard and PC specs.

CPU is Intel P4 Prescott.
Motherboard is Regular - Desktop Motherboard.
Video card you know.
There's no choice for your memory which is 2GB DDR.
Twin - DVD/ROM and DVD/R-RW.
Your hard drive is 7200RPM 3.5 Hard Drive.

According to him, the motherboard did not have onboard VGA, so I am entirely dependent on my video card.

[Dirtman]

.
Looks like the card is defective ... bummer eh?


. 26249 .26250262492625126249

[Wulf190]

Rami. Do you know what MoBo you have in your case? Also how big is your case?

[simonu]

surely if Rami goes back to the store and says "hey this is defective!" they're gonna say "no man you didn't give it enough juice," I must admit his symtoms are worse than I expirienced, my system only dipped out when I pushed the graphic card with a flight sim. But Rami's card is higher spec than mine, his psu is the same rating at least. they are all different. The maximum current values for the different rails varies quite a bit; even between lines. Basic psu's may not feed a GPU with a stable current, or they may start rippling the supply to the motherboard. Can't rule out defective card, needs to be tested on a rig that you know will drive it.

[nomad13]

As I remember my old ATI video card days; sometimes the installation can be tricky. Uninstall the old video card drivers, use some kind of driver cleaner to remove all video card software, then install the new ATI drivers over the stock MS VGA drivers. I recall having to do some of this stuff in Safe Mode for proper driver installation.

Looking at the photo, that monitor port that is covered is for an analog monitor output if the motherboard had onboard video. Any video card ports should be sticking through the case at a 90 degree angle to that rear output panel.

A 300w power supply should run your rig with a new video card, at least at an idle. If you start using your CPU, video card, RAM and hard drive all at the same time, you may notice some funky behavior, that may be from not enough juice. Some 300w PSUs can be more reliable than one with more power, depending on the quality of the power supply. Like simonu said, you may not get reliable power on critical rails. I had a 3.4 Northwood on my old rig, I used a 350w PSU until I went with a top shelf(at the time) ATI video card and added three or four hard drives, then I went with a 5 or 600w PSU, because my old PSU did not have a video card power connection.

The video card could be defective, that would be somewhat unusual, but by no means impossible.

[Rami]

Reply..

I shot myself in the foot here because I'm an idiot, so I'm out of luck with this card. They won't take back cards you broke yourself...:angryfir: :censored: :banghead:

I guess s*it happens sometimes, but still, I'm really p&ssed at myself.

[Seagull V]

Hello Rami

There are lots of worse things that can happen then that.

"Tis a day of being at peace and celebrating life" (Something I have had to remind myself of !!!!)

Be at peace with yourself and have some great time with your family. Not much of mine is left.
Count your blessings !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :santahat:

[nomad13]

I think I have a video card that I won't be using, I'm pretty sure it is an ATI 9200 AGP. You can have it if you want. I used it on a computer that I played CFS 2 on, it may not be the top of the line, but it will work.
Tomorrow being Christmas, I can't do much, but if you're interested I'll dig it up and see what the deal is.

[mariereid]

I don't even know if it's what you need, but I got a Geforce 9800 and a 400 watt power supply. I replaced them booth in an effort to gain more performance. They are just as good as the new stuff. Of course if they are any good to ya, they are yours. If ya want them, just let me know the fastest way to get them to ya. I hope this is not bumming out your Christmas.:salute::ernae:

[Rami]

Thanks, but it looks like I'm okay for now. I have a card on the way from Santa that will be fine for now.

[Ali Cat]

Just should anyone care for a better understanding of the power supply too big issue, here’s how I think of it.

Each user of the power has an internal resistance. A power supply holds its output voltage constant (if it is working properly). Because V=RI (volts = resistance x amps), with the voltage and resistance here fixed, per this equation, the amps must be fixed as well. Thus the power supply being too big is not an issue. Each user will draw only the amps it requires.

If I’ve got this wrong, please anyone, correct me. But I think the above is the "why" of the issue.


AC

[nomad13]

Each user of the power has an internal resistance. A power supply holds its output voltage constant (if it is working properly). Because V=RI (volts = resistance x amps), with the voltage and resistance here fixed, per this equation, the amps must be fixed as well. Thus the power supply being too big is not an issue. Each user will draw only the amps it requires.That's basically how power supplies work, there's a little more to figuring out kind of PSU you need.
Computer power supplies are "switching" power supplies; they convert AC voltage to various DC voltages. Computers usually use 120v or 220v AC(depending where you live) and convert it to 3.3v, 5v and 12v DC. The PSU must distribute the power reliably along these "rails" to the computer's components.
There are a number of factors that determine a quality power supply; like power factor correction, load and line regulation, ripple, overvoltage and overcurrent protection, but all you really need to do is figure out how much power your computer needs by using one of the many online PSU calculators, add 25-40% for the upgrades you always make later, then pick a unit from a reputable brand name company.
The power supply is probably one of the most important computer components, but the least glamorous; people have a tendency to overlook it or take it for granted.

Rami, glad to hear Santa is bringing you a new graphics card. Computers lose all their charm when the screen is black.


Why is everything underlined?

[mariereid]

I was also wondering about the underline. Hope it's not something I fiddled with!:ernae:

[Rami]

Mariereid,

Part of the problem with the GeForce 9800 offer is that I am concerned that I'll have a repeat of the same problem I had with the graphics card I have. So I'll wait for something I know works. In the interim, I'll keep working on missions on my laptop.

[mariereid]

I replaced it with a Geforce GTX 260 and had to get a 550 power supply. Didn't make a lick of a difference. I have started to believe every bodies fps must drop below 20 now and then. I try to make all my stinky little missions so this does not happen. I don't know how you mega mission builders do it! Let me know if you change your mind, it's just gathering dust, I would be more than happy to see it go to a deserving person.:salute::ernae:

[Dirtman]

This is something that had stuck in my mind since this all began ... today (as I'm programming an older PC for a client) a couple of things occurred to me so I'll share them with yous.


When Windows boots, it appears to power-up the vid card first. The vid card specs are the first thing I'm seeing upon start-up. Therefore: no vid card power - no boot.

Rami - this is the basic problem I believe you have experienced.




Power Requirements:

I was browsing some tech reports about the newest & best components ... found a spec sheet for one of the most powerful vid cards: AMD Radeon HD 6970

Full power requirement = 250 watts
Typical gaming requirement = 190 watts
At idle = 20 watts


The bottom line is that ANY p/s that could supply 40 watts (to the card) would allow the card & o/s to boot-up but the card would malfunction if the available power was too low to run it at the higher gaming power requirement.


27318

[Dirtman]

I replaced it with a Geforce GTX 260 and had to get a 550 power supply. Didn't make a lick of a difference. I have started to believe every bodies fps must drop below 20 now and then. I try to make all my stinky little missions so this does not happen. I don't know how you mega mission builders do it! Let me know if you change your mind, it's just gathering dust, I would be more than happy to see it go to a deserving person.:salute::ernae:


Yo Rick;

OK .. so you've changed the vid card & p/s with no change in FPS ... that leaves the monitor and video settings as the only other things that could be the problem.

I've been living in "FPS Hell" for the past 2 years trying to get CFS2-4-Vietnam to the point where it is playable without turning into a freakin' slide-show. So I have done extensive testing in this area. (30 or so planes in multi LOD would really help too - LOL!!!)


Some questions:

What is the make & model number of your monitor?

What is the "refresh-rate" set at ?
(LCD = 60Hz ... CRT = 85Hz)

What is the "response time" ?
( 2ms is optimal .. 3ms is fine .. 5ms is slow but acceptable .. 7ms FAHGETABOUTIT! not good for gaming )

What video resolution is it set at?
( I think yours is set way too high )

Lemme know

[mariereid]

Hey Dirtster! I got a 24 in samsung sync master T 240. For refresh rate, I have the choice of 59 or 60 hertz. I use 60. The res is set to max, 1920 x 1200. Response time is 5ms (dang it). The machine I am on now has a 22 inch, 2ms. Hmm... could I live without that extra 2 inches? Like most fellas I feel size is everything!

Maybe I'm crying over nothing. Yesterday was the first mission I ever made where the fps dipped below 20. I had a low of 19.?. This was with 20 aircraft attacking an airfield with a lot of scenery around the wharfs, and lots of explosions.

As far as adjusting the res, or lowering any settings, it does not make a lick of difference in fps.

When I run into trouble is when I fly one of those great mega campaigns that the masters create. On some of the missions I can get down to 9 fps now and then.

Perhaps it is the monitor?:salute::ernae:

[Dirtman]

Hey Dirtster! I got a 24 in samsung sync master T 240. For refresh rate, I have the choice of 59 or 60 hertz. I use 60. The res is set to max, 1920 x 1200. Response time is 5ms (dang it). The machine I am on now has a 22 inch, 2ms. Hmm... could I live without that extra 2 inches? Like most fellas I feel size is everything!

Maybe swap the monitors and check for a difference in FR's?
It don't cost nuthin' ta try!




Maybe I'm crying over nothing. Yesterday was the first mission I ever made where the fps dipped below 20. I had a low of 19.?. This was with 20 aircraft attacking an airfield with a lot of scenery around the wharfs, and lots of explosions.

That is acceptable but should be higher considering the equipment that you have.

Try flying in "window-mode" - this will also increase FR's




As far as adjusting the res, or lowering any settings, it does not make a lick of difference in fps.

When I run into trouble is when I fly one of those great mega campaigns that the masters create. On some of the missions I can get down to 9 fps now and then.

Perhaps it is the monitor?:salute::ernae:

OK so here's a little trick: in the CFS2.CFG ; scroll down to the "CONTROLS" section and disable (change to "0") ALL the force-feedback settings. This is enabled by default and will decrease your FR's significantly - even if you don't have a force-feedback stick!

Kinda weird - BUT IT WORKS!


[CONTROLS]
force_master_gain=0
force_stick_force_enabled=0
force_stick_shaker_enabled=0
force_gear_bump_enabled=0
force_crash_enabled=0
force_ground_bumps_enabled=0
force_machinegun_enabled=0
force_bulletdamage_enabled=0
force_rocket_enabled=0
force_bomb_enabled=0
force_flak_enabled=0

[mariereid]

Thanks, Dirty! I will swap monitors and see what happens. First I will try out the force feed back settings. They might be really set to the "max". If I don't hang on to the stick, I swear it would jump right of my desk! I'll let ya know how it goes.:salute::ernae:

[mariereid]

Well, that was different! I just changed the gain from 10,000 to 1, just to see what happened. I checked out the mission that had less than 20fps over the base. Will wonders never cease! All the enemy aircraft have turned into RCAF P-40s. Beautys to look at, but what happen to all those zeros and vals? Never did make it to the base (fps problem area), I was too busy following P-40s that seemed to be flying in circles. I'd be crying, but I am fascinated by what has happened to my far from ready for prime time mission. Got to go the shop for a few hours. When I get home I will set all force feed back to 0. Very interesting!:salute::ernae:

Oh, yeah, everything except gain, all force feedback was set at 1.

[sc7500]

... Regarding changes in the CFS2.Cfg file...

I've been using the Zero Force Feedback trick for a long time - works wonders for keeping frame rates high on a laptop.

However, I sometimes have numbers change all by themselves in the CFG file - specifically:

[SITUATIONAL_OPTIONS]
Enemy_indicator=1
Radar=1
NameTags=1
Range_indicator=1
Combat_status_messages=1
Radio_com=1

Usually, it's the [Combat_Status_Messages] turning itself off... and I haven't clicked a thing.

Ideas ?
SC
:kilroy:

[misson]

Hello Rami

There are lots of worse things that can happen then that.

"Tis a day of being at peace and celebrating life" (Something I have had to remind myself of !!!!)

Be at peace with yourself and have some great time with your family. Not much of mine is left.
Count your blessings !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :santahat:
i say the same thing (no more or less than above)

[mariereid]

Dirty, old boy, in the CFS2 cfg, after the force listings there is "PAN_RATE=400" and then "force_master_ enabled=1" Should I set that to 0, also?

Dirty and SC, I have never dared to mess with CFS2 cfg before, but it looks very interesting. I imagine when you make changes to your joystick and a lot of other settings, it changes in here. I see a Kiwi P-40 in there that I have not used for over a month.

I hope Rami don't mind us talking about this. I may not be in real trouble yet, but if I get curious, I might be!:ernae:

[mariereid]

Hey, I tried the zero force deal and have the same fps. I use 2 installs for making missions, one I work in, the other I put missions in when I am happy with them. I am going to return the force setting to where they were. In my work install, after changing force settings to 0, everything was fine. I can copy this mission to my other install if it's still messed up. (I hope!) I sure would like to learn more about CFS2 cfg.

Guess I will have to try the smaller 2ms monitor and see what happens, before I run out and by that 27in 2ms Samsung I was reading about! I might get "cut off", but I have survived that before! :salute::ernae:

[mariereid]

Hmm.......the 24in 5ms was slightly better than the 22in 2ms.

I see all enemy aircraft in 1 install have changed into P-40s in all the missions. They are fine in one install, but as soon as I move them over to the other they all change into P-40s. Oh well, I'll play with it for awhile and I can always make better missions. :ernae::salute:

[nomad13]

I have never dared to mess with CFS2 cfg before, but it looks very interesting.Messing with a text file is easy. Before you do anything, just make a copy of it and call it CFS2.CFG.bak. That way, you always have a virgin copy of the file in case you need to go back to square one.

[Dirtman]

....
....27509

Yo Rickster;

I didn't say: "turn the force-feedback down"; ... I said: "turn it OFF" and then recheck the fps.
Lowering the intensity of the FF won't change the fps ... turning the FF off, WILL.


Also: to get an accurate fps comparison (between the 2 monitors or with the FF: on or off) you MUST use the same mission, with the same planes over the same scenery.

Different planes & scenery will change the fps; so you can't get an accurate comparison.

Personally I like to use MR's Henderson for testing because it has dense scenery with thousands of objects plus some ships.

There are other variables to consider when analyzing low fps:
- Are you using "windowed" or "full screen" mode? (windowed gives significantly higher fps)
- Are you in: "cockpit view", "virtual cockpit view" or "no panel-just air"? ("no panel-just air" gives higher fps)
- some panel gauges are real fps killers
- Are the other aircraft (in the mission) "high detail" or non-LOD? (these are the main fps killers)

Kinda makes sense ... eh?

Well at least we've solved one problem so far:

.......... 27507

[mariereid]

Uncle Dirty; We've always know where the real problem was!

Let's see, I did test out the monitors as you said, everything exactly the same for both.

I did the force thing exactly as you said, eventually.

I do fly in 2D cockpit. I can't give that up! I am happy that setting all the force items to 0 did not make a difference, because I like the feeling of the runway, weapons, etc. I can't give that up!

I am in windowed mode. I do use a lot of high detailed stuff. For me the Iris P-40 is something I cannot use. I have used 10-15 Usio ships with no problem.

I am sure the fact that I had 3 "high detail" ships tied up to the same wharf, with a bunch of barrels and crates and a nice looking deuce and a half caused me to drop below 20. But I loves my eye candy!

I can control the fps in my own missions, and I can swap out what is causing problems in some of the great missions. But like you said, with my specs, I should not have to.

I know it seems strang, but I will have the same fps running "barebones" as I do running "full-tilt-maxed out". This old burnout has just not found the secret sweet spot yet!
:salute: and :ernae: