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arfyhun
December 5th, 2010, 10:02
Greetings all,

I have a new P.C. and cannot find my CFS1 disc presently, so the game is 'parked' for now.

There is one question I would like to ask, if I may.

I have a few aeroplanes (one I can remember is a Fairey Battle, but no more info), that when loaded as enemy A/Cs in QuickCom, describe large vertical circles as they approach.

Methinks it must be due to the way the A/Cs were made but I'm just interested if anyone else has met the same style of 'formation flying'.

Many thanks in advance for your time,

Graham Sullivan. arfyhun.
hubbabubba
December 5th, 2010, 21:45
Greetings all,

I have a new P.C. and cannot find my CFS1 disc presently, so the game is 'parked' for now.

There is one question I would like to ask, if I may.

I have a few aeroplanes (one I can remember is a Fairey Battle, but no more info), that when loaded as enemy A/Cs in QuickCom, describe large vertical circles as they approach.

Methinks it must be due to the way the A/Cs were made but I'm just interested if anyone else has met the same style of 'formation flying'.

Many thanks in advance for your time,

Graham Sullivan. arfyhun.

Hi arfyhun (this pseudo you will have to explain to me... I'm not even sure how to pronounce it!:icon_lol:)!

A/C react according to their flight dynamics coupled with the AI engine. I can't be specific about your Battle, but I know for a fact that no two models aircraft are acting the same.

When I build aircraft or ground objects, I always submit them to the "gauntlet"; nine P-47D in offensive position having their ways with my poor models until they go poof!

Why P-47D? Simply because they behave "sensibly"; they strafe me like they should and, if they don't kill me, they keep strafing. Fw 190A will ram you 50% of the time. Spits, P-51D and Hurricanes will take forever to mount an attack - you will die of old age before they shoot at you.

Many things do influence their behaviors. Have you ever noticed that, in Mission or Campaigns, all the Luftwaffe seems only interested by you sometimes?

Even more oddly; a/c will react differently if you emit smoke under certain circumstances! In one case, I have found a certain combination in the DP file that makes P-47D uninterested by you!

The "best" AIR file for AI is not always the same for flyable ones; just ask Ivan about his suicidal Fw 190:jump:.

Or try to fly "non-flyable" stock a/c with their originals AIR files; some can't even get off the ground!

When I'm working on the flight dynamics of an a/c, I test it most of the time as an AI a/c as well. I have an Albatros DIII that does a very convincing "dead leaf" maneuver; it will go in a stall as if it was out of control, let you pass over, regain control while under you, and shoot you in the belly! This is a "by the book" WWI maneuver btw...:kilroy:
arfyhun
December 7th, 2010, 12:55
Thank you hubbabubba for taking the time to explain my curiosity so completely. I only have two ACs as I remember which perform that way, (the other is a WWI jobby), so I really have no cause to complain.

My name is a compression of 'Ar Fy Hun', (spoken; 'ARE VUH HEEN', with a slightly gutteral H). It's Welsh (Cymraig) for; On My Own.
Instead of Hun, you could use Hunau, which is pronounced Heenai. A longer version is; ar ei ben ei hun; (by himself, alone). I'm starting to wonder, out of the two of us, who is now wishing they hadn't asked/answered the question!

Many thanks again hubbabubba for the swift answer. I have questions aplenty to ask re. CFS1 but right now I think I'll just have a lie down.....

Regards,

Graham. London
hubbabubba
December 7th, 2010, 15:30
(...)

My name is a compression of 'Ar Fy Hun', (spoken; 'ARE VUH HEEN', with a slightly gutteral H). It's Welsh (Cymraig) for; On My Own.
Instead of Hun, you could use Hunau, which is pronounced Heenai. A longer version is; ar ei ben ei hun; (by himself, alone). I'm starting to wonder, out of the two of us, who is now wishing they hadn't asked/answered the question!

(...)

Graham. London

On the contrary, arfyhun! Tonight, I will go to bed less stupid as we say here!:icon_lol:

And I'm sure others will do too...:kilroy:
Ivan
December 7th, 2010, 19:54
I guess I am also a little less stupid tonight. Thanks for the explanation. I always have problems when we see the typical Roman alphabet used with different pronunciations. Chinese Pinyin also bothers me.

Regarding the Fairey Battle, does the aircraft loop continuously? If so, it is probably because the author of the AIR file (flight parameters) didn't take the time to check the angle of incidence of the stabilizer. (I believe this is Record 1205.) If the stabilizer's angle of incidence is a couple degrees down, it will make the aircraft tail heavy. At low speeds, this will make the aircraft fly with neutral trim, but at higher speeds, the downforce changes and often its changes with speed are faster than the AI (or autopilot) can adjust the trim to compensate.

Human pilots basically can change how they react to adjust for the aircraft's peculiarities. AI pilots only know one way to respond and if the aircraft doesn't react exactly as expected, they are entirely lost.

Hubbabubba mentioned my FW 190A. I tuned it to have a VERY high roll rate on the order of 150 degrees per second. I put a lot of damping to stop the roll when controls are neutralised. The control curves are adjusted so that at small deflections control effect is very small. (That allows for higher precision.) At high deflections, control effect is huge and non linear in rate. The aileron control effect in Record 1101 is also VERY high.

All this makes for an easy airplane for a human to fly. I believe that the AI only sees the aileron control effect and only uses full deflection of controls applied for short intervals. This doesn't work with my aircraft because a full deflection will kick the plane into an extremely high rate roll which then causes the AI to apply full opposite deflection which stops the roll but starts an opposite direction high speed roll.......

I don't know for sure this is the case, but it fits with the observed results.

FWIW, Just about all the stock CFS1 flight models are horrible. Generally I just pick the stock P-51D flight model and start changing parameters to match the plane I am working on.

- Ivan.
arfyhun
December 12th, 2010, 11:20
Hello Ivan,

Yes, the ACs loop all the time as they fly along. I cannot remember now if they maintain a head up or horizontal attitude as they advance. I think it could be the former, although I think some manage to collide as well. Saves me ammo I suppose.

When I find my disc, (I've just been up in the attic today on my fruitless quest), I'll do a reload and add the 1939-40 theatre to get me 'up and staggering' (the best that can be done at my age). Then I'll almost know what I'm talking about.

I've copied all your replies so a 'delve into the dark with instructions' will befall me if and when the disc surfaces.

Funny enough I was going to change the airfile for a similar one, but changing the P.C. beat me to it.

Many thanks all. I can certainly say I'll be going to bed less stupid tonight as well!

Nos Da, Graham.
Ivan
December 13th, 2010, 04:17
If you are just looking for a CFS CD, just order one off Amazon or eBay. It might save you some aggravation. I have multiple installations in my house and now I have at least one original CD for every one. The cost was pretty minimal for the last one I ordered: $8 and Shipping which worked out to about $10 or so delivered. It is now an Atari product if I remember right.

- Ivan.
arfyhun
December 15th, 2010, 04:44
Greetings again chaps, I have found the Fairey Battle I mentioned in my original question. I have posted the .air file to show it would be impossible to edit 'as-is'. Do I need extra software to do so? Also, am I 'treading on anybody's feet', to use an expression, by posting this file? I don't want to break any observed conventions. If so please delete this reply.

Many thanks, arfyhun.


  Fairey Battle   N0292M  Length; 42ft 1 3/4 in.
Wing span; 54 ft Weight; 10,793 lb max Speed; 210 mph at sea level max
Power RR Merlin III 1,035hp at takeoff

Fairey Battle K9182, of No. 226 (B) Squadron
Based at Rheims, France, from September 1939 until May 1940. No.226
Squadron was part of the Advanced Air Striking Force. This aircraft is typical of the hard-working Battles that bore the brunt of the attacks on the advancing German forces in France and Belgium.
Details
Designer; Jerry Arzdorf Date 12/17/96
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sc7500
December 15th, 2010, 09:53
...I have posted the .air file to show it would be impossible to edit 'as-is'. Do I need extra software to do so? ...

Yep, you need AirEdit.exe:

http://desktopaviator.tripod.com/Programs/Utility/Air_Edit/

Once you have it installed, it's fairly easy to get the hang of. But PLEASE back up any AIR file you're gonna work with before you mod it, for "Just In Case"...

And, once you learn this program, grab up AirWrench from Jerry Beckwith's MudPond page - LOTS of tinkering to be done with THAT one !

Best :wavey:
SC
:kilroy:

NOTE: The latest version of AirEdit is 1.52 - I just uploaded it with Rami's blessing to the CFS2 Utilities section.
hubbabubba
December 15th, 2010, 10:01
LOL!!!

AIR files can be read with AirEd (found here (http://hsors.pagesperso-orange.fr/docs/aired152.rar)[/URL] or [URL="javascript:openWindow('download-file?file=aired.zip', 800, 400)"]here (http://hsors.pagesperso-orange.fr/docs/aired152.rar)) or fdeditor (found here (http://www.flightsimdownloads.com/pub/AbacusFDE.zip)).

You can send us your file as an attachment.

Nice try though!:icon_lol:
Ivan
December 15th, 2010, 16:48
It might be a good idea to post the entire aircraft so that we can see how the whole package fits together. Regarding AIR file editors, I use both AirEd and FDE. Each program has its own strengths and weaknesses. Neither one works well on arrays, so I wrote up a couple C programs to translate from a CSV spreadsheet file to the binary version which I can then paste in using AirEd. Graphing in a spreadsheet lets me confirm that the curves are more or less smooth.

AirED only works with predefined types. There are some values that don't really fit any of the predefined types. FDE isn't able to delete and copy records.

- Ivan.
hubbabubba
December 17th, 2010, 12:16
(...)

AirED only works with predefined types. There are some values that don't really fit any of the predefined types. FDE isn't able to delete and copy records.

- Ivan.

Not sure I understand what you mean by "predefined types".:confused:
Ivan
December 17th, 2010, 18:01
Hi Hubbabubba,

Do you remember way back when we were trying to figure out what the unit was for the offset of the Cockpit POV? It turned out to be 1/512 of a Metre. Try representing that with AirEd. I don't believe that you can. With FDE, you can do it because you can specify a multiplier.

- Ivan.
hubbabubba
December 18th, 2010, 06:20
Hi Hubbabubba,

Do you remember way back when we were trying to figure out what the unit was for the offset of the Cockpit POV? It turned out to be 1/512 of a Metre. Try representing that with AirEd. I don't believe that you can. With FDE, you can do it because you can specify a multiplier.

- Ivan.

At the risk of showing the extent of my ignorance, I'm still puzzled by your comments. Do you mean that FDE is capable of a higher precision in determining length data?

If you could give me an example of FDE vs. AirEd with actual numbers, this could help. Since I rarely use FDE, the "specify a multiplier" portion is leaving me panting.:icon_eek:
Ivan
December 18th, 2010, 17:13
Hi Hubbabubba,

Let's take the example of the cockpit viewpoint. I am working on an airplane that has a POV that is 27.5 inches above the CoG. You have probably noticed that you often can't specify the exact number you want in either AIR file editor. The values will come close, but there is a quantum step you can't get below. It will hit only the closest step.

In this case,
FDE gives me 27.52830 inches
AirEd gives me 27.5279 inches

Remember that some time back we calculated that the formula for calculating SCASM offsets was:

Inches * 25.4 / 1000 * 512 = SCASM Offset
For FDE, we get 358.00003584 Units
For AirEd, we get 357.99483392 Units

It is pretty obvious what the value should be: 358 Units, but I know which one is closer.

This is from AirEd.INI (Courtesy of Jerry Beckwith) This is the best version I have found.
; Valid types are...
; record, BOOL, int8, int16, int32, double, text, thrust, 16pct,
; fwgt, m256 ang16, aspd, mach, prpm, tbl16, tbldb, tbl3d
; Binary conversion factors for data types:
; 16pct, fwgt, m256
; i16/16384 i16/256 i16/6.5025
; ang16, aspd, mach, prpm,
; i16/182, i32/128, i32/20480, i16*15/32
[301]
1=00,m256,*Cockpit View Right+/Left- CoG (inches)
1h=Pilots' view point from the center of the aircraft to one side.
2=02,m256,*Cockpit View Above+/Below- CoG (inches)
2h=Pilots' view point from the center of gravity up.
3=04,m256,*Cockpit View Fore+/Aft- CoG (inches)
3h=Pilots' view point from the center of gravity fore/aft.
4=06,int32,*CoG Height From Ground
4h=Height for initial loading|Gear Length * 1600 for Light AC - * 1800 for Heavy AC ?
5=0A,ang16,*Fuselage Angle
5h=Fuselage angle for initial loading|Neg angle for Pos pitch on ground

This is from FDECtrl.txt
301,,301 Fuselage,Header,1
301,0,Cockpit View Right+/Left- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,2,Cockpit View Above+/Below- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,4,Cockpit View Fore+/Aft- C of G (inches),Integer2,6.5024
301,6,C of G above Ground,Integer4,1
301,10,Fuselage Angle,Integer2,182

Now here is where life gets really interesting:

Note that SCASM offets are 1/512 meter. AIR File offsets are only 1/256 meter, so we only get even offsets in SCASM if we use AIR File values.

If we use the formula specified above for calculating SCASM Offsets, we get 13.0048 for 1/512 meter. For 1/256 meter in the AIR file, we get half that or 6.5024 which is the exact divisor we specified in FDECtrl.txt. For AirEd.INI, the internal conversion is apparently 6.5025, which is close, but not exact and we can't do a thing about it.

For this task, it isn't a very big problem. Now if I wanted to do things in Metric instead of inches, All I really need to do in FDE is to alter the conversion factor to something like 1/512 but for AirEd, I can't do a thing. Perhaps I want the value in Feet instead of Inches to match what I see in AF99. This is also trivial for FDE, but impossible for AirEd.....

;-)
- Ivan.
arfyhun
December 20th, 2010, 13:08
Greetings all and thank you for your comments. Opened a can of worms 'ere it seems. I'm having a bit of trouble adding the files to the 'Manage Attachments' box. When I drag the A/C folder into it I R/X a list that I can do nothing with. When I close the box they disappear.

Any help most gratefully accepted.

Going bonkers slowly, (but speeding up nicely),

Graham. London.
arfyhun
December 27th, 2010, 05:30
Greetings again all, have Dwnld both aired & fdeditor.

With aired (CFS1 is on my old HD, now 'F' on the new kit), I have tried to 'drag and drop' the Battle air file to the 'C' drive, which causes aired to announce it has got a problem and closes immediately. Putting aired into the Aircraft folder where the Fairey Battle lives and trying that way, clicking; file/Open (showing inside the Battle's folder)/clicking on the air file, also brings up the dreaded 'AirEd AIR file editor has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience'. Clicking 'Debug' drops aired out.

Opening the 'Manage Attachments' section, I can add the Battle.air file but a black cross and 'invalid file' icon appear.

fdeditor, when in positions, C;Desktop, F;Aircraft folder and F;Fairey Battle folder, messages it is unable to locate FS2002, CFS1 etc. without giving me an option of pointing it towards the correct location, as is in the help notes.

I know I'm doing a lot of things wrong, anybody out there knows which ones they are?

Many thanks all in advance,

Graham.
hubbabubba
December 27th, 2010, 07:14
:wavey:arfyhun,

Zip your AIR file and email it to me. My email address is under my profile.

I don't know what's wrong with AirEd, but something is. Have you tried with different AIR files?

On that; Happy New Year!
Ivan
December 27th, 2010, 11:25
Send me the whole ZIP file for the airplane if you get the chance. You kinda need the visual model to get a good evaluation.

- Ivan.
Ivan1GFP@yahoo.com
arfyhun
December 29th, 2010, 12:27
Greetings Ivan,

tried your clue and using 'aired' with other .air files I can 'drag and drop' O.K. Looks like the Battle .air file is the problem.

'fdeditor' still only wants to see the normal progression to CFS1, no search capabilities offered.

just posted the contents of the A/C folder to you. My mail provider wouldn't let me post the whole thing. I'm desperately trying to find the '.zip' file in my records, but it is a 'no-show' as a stand-alone A/C. I'm checking the mission zips presently to see it it's packaged in one of them.

Will update you if I get lucky.

Many thanks again mate,

Bleddyn Newydd DDa, as was said more than 1,000 years ago in our great land.

Graham. arfyhun.
arfyhun
December 29th, 2010, 12:57
Ivan, quick update. Found the .zip for the Fairey Battle. It lives in 'pilotswar1' by Richard Steele, Dl/d years ago from Simviation. (Thoroughly good set of missions, as it happens).

I've posted the .zip to you.

Have fun.

Graham. arfyhun.
Ivan
December 29th, 2010, 17:02
Thanks arfyhun.

Just finished downloading. I need to move it to another computer to actually use it though. I'll let you know if I find anything strange.

- Ivan.
arfyhun
January 2nd, 2011, 04:20
Thank you Ivan for sorting out the .air file for me. Do you happen to know why aired could not import it?

Anyway, problem solved and thank you for doing the other bits you found needing adjustment.

It's always half the battle knowing what you're doing. Lets me out.

Many thanks again mate,

Best Wishes for the New Year,

Graham. arfyhun.
Ivan
January 2nd, 2011, 06:46
Hi Arfyhun,

Actually AirEd had no trouble editing the file. In fact that is exactly what I used.

My setup is a bit strange. I have about 350 or so aircraft in CFS. AirEd can handle that number directly. FDE can't. I prefer FDE for prolonged edits, so I put anything I am working on for a while in my FS98 installation which only has about 30 aircraft and copy the AIR file to CFS using a batch file in the CFS working directory. In that way, I have a backup as well. When I do a build in AF99, the AIR file in CFS is changed, but I don't lose my original because it is in the FS98 directory.

With the Fairey Battle, I was not expecting to do much editing and had a backup copy in the ZIP file, so I just edited it directly with AirEd. What I found that was fairly easy to correct was the foolowing:

The angle of incidence of the stabilizer was off. It was pointed down so that meant that when the plane went faster, the tail would get heavier which was the main problem you saw. As a side effect, I also noticed that the center of lift on the wing was quite a bit behind the center of gravity. On a real aircraft, this often causes instability and can cause the tail to stall first. I adjusted it forward a bit to be closer to the center of gravity. I do note that the aircraft still has a good bit of longitudinal instability which I didn't chase. When the trim is way off, you can't see it, but after adjusting the stabilizer, it is pretty obvious.

The plane also hovered about 6 inches off the ground as I could see by the shadows. I adjusted the landing gear contact points up to make the model's wheels contact the runway. There is another variable which specifies the height of the CG of the aircraft as it loads into the sim. By adjusting the landing gear contact points, the plane now loaded too high, so I adjusted that value as well.

I also found that the plane would explode when I lifted it about 3 feet and dropped it. I do this to check the damping factors. (The damping on the tail wheel is a little less than the other wheels, but I didn't bother changing it.) The plane would explode most of the time when dropped. To correct this, I changed the strength of the tail gear to match the values in the main gear. Plane no longer explodes so easily when dropped.

The Cockpit viewpoint was off by a fair amount, so I used DPED to figure out what the values should be and adjusted the flight model to match where I guessed the pilot's eyes should he.

In visiting the DP file with DPED, I found the boxes didn't even come close to matching the visual model, so I adjusted the locations fairly quickly. I did observe that the plane probably has a single wing gun but that isn't reflected in the DP.

Now you can see why I wanted the whole airplane rather than just the AIR file. Without the visual, I could not check Cockpit POV, Landing Gear Contacts, or the Damage Profile.

Let me know if you find any other goofy stuff when you try out the edited files. I didn't really check out all that much.
Happy New Year.
- Ivan.
Ivan
January 5th, 2011, 06:37
Attached are screenshots which show some of the changes that were made.

The virtual cockpit viewpoint was about a frame too far back and so low that it was inside the fuselage component. Thus, you could not see the fuselage from within.

The shadows of the wheels do not meet the wheels in the original version. Note that the tailwheel is VERY thin and the shadow is a line on the runway. It is not easy to see in either the original or new screenshots.

- Ivan.