Hard hitting rear gunner

[Finn]

In the past we had a most dreadful rear gunner in the default Betty, and just recently Rami presented a series of .dp files by Captain Kurt that also cured the rear gunners of a series of Axis bombers.

But with Rami's new Battle of France (RAF) I see the same from the TRbf110_C. Whenever I get within 1000 meters I get shot up from this super-expert gunner, using at least a 20 mm weapon, crippling my poor Hurricane. In contrast those pesty 110's almost never use their nose weapons, which in the real world was the primary armament, while the rear gunner's twin MG 181 in caliber 7.92 mm was only meant as a last ditch self defense weapon.

Does anyone have a solution on how to make these airplanes behave more realistically - or at least to tame that damned rear flak battery?

Finnhttp://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/icons/icon8.png

[Rami]

Finn,

This is a good post, I'm glad you commented on it. I'm sure we'll get a solution here.

[sc7500]

Well, here's how I do it - you're gonna need DPEdit and AimIt.exe programs.

~ First, use AimIt to reduce the effective range of the guns - in my install, the default is around 900 feet and +1 foot of elevation. I always change this to 600 feet and +3 feet for bombers.

~ With DPEdit, open your subject plane DP file and select the [GUNS] tab; Look down at the bottom right - each weapon will have a selector checkbox that includes >>L/R Angle<<. To reduce the "talent" of a particular gun position, change that zero to a positive or negative number. You can REALLY mess up a gun turret with multiple MGs......

The bigger the number, the worse that gun will perform. Experiment a little to get the results you want; I like to make them no larger / smaller than +/- 5.

NOTE: DO NOT tweak the fixed forward-firing weaponry info, or your AI will be unable to hit the side of a hangar !!!

Try this and see what you think :wavey:
SC
:kilroy:

[The B24 Guy]

The easy way to fix it is use DPED to open the DP file.
Find the rear gun and change "trigger" from 1 CANNON to 0 GUN

I forgot who told me this fix, but it works great.

Regards,
B24Guy


P.S. Do not forget to delete the CDP file.

[tonybones2112]

I got a hot little Polish campaign over on Simviation had everything in it. The rear gunners in the Me-110s included are a little too enthusiastic and I went into the .dp and just reduced the number of a round's effectiveness.

Hey SC, sorry I demoted you the other say in a message, I called you SC5000.

Bones

[Finn]

Now I already know what I'll spend the coming weekend with - trying all you wonderful guys solustions. But what about the rear gunner more or less being the primary weapon? It is almost the same as the thinking behind the Defiant - only that the Germans never used or intended the Bf 110 to be used like that. It had a very potent nose armament and was intended to be used as a fighter. I have tried to fly steadily letting one sneak up on me, and then it DOES fire with its main armament, but in all normal combat, only the rear gunner gets into play.
Finn

[achim27619]

Hi,

to soften up super gunners I recommend to change some figures in the a/c.dp (to be opend in word pad)

(the following examles are from Caleb Flerk's Guide)

gunstation.0=0,-2,1,0.10,883,2,0.01,500,2,40,4d4*14,-2.826,-0.653,0.696, 0.2494260,13.010904,1.0793248,0,0,0,0,1.60

This is not the trajectory range of a bullet as mentioned above for "time alive," but the maximum distance at which an attacking aircraft will open fire with this gun. Stated another way, so long as your aircraft is more than 500 meters from an enemy plane you are safe.
Lower this number to 400 or 300 and your plane will be safe outside this range


gunstation.0=0,-2,1,0.10,883,2,0.01,500,2,40,4d4*14,-2.826,-0.653,0.696, 0.2494260,13.010904,1.0793248,0,0,0,0,1.60

pitch, bank, yaw (degrees). [Machine gun and cannon only. All other weapons = 0,0,0]

Angular rotation of the gun barrel centerline relative to the aircraft axis system. Pitch is measured about the X axis. Bank is measured about the Z axis. Yaw is measured about the Y axis.

These are the three values set when boresighting a weapon to a target.

I recommend to change the pitch as well like 0.2694260. this will make the enemy rear gunner start shooting at the given range above, you will see the tracers, but the chances of being hit will increase the closer you come to the enemy plane.
Cheers

Achim

[Finn]

Found the AimIt.exe right here at the outhouse - and had it work immidiately. Also found the DPedit (Simviation) but here is my problem: How do I aim it at the correct .DP file? The read-me is of little help, unfortunately. It assumes skills, I do not have. Can U help?
Finn

[Captain Kurt]

Hi Finn,

Don't panic, I always seem to have problems getting 3rd party editing tools to work right too. Probably because what I envision or want to accomplish was not exactly what the creator was programming for.

The quickest and surest way I have found to adjust the guns on a plane - both forward and aft firing - is to open the .dp file in note pad and edit it. I am attaching the best dp edit tutorial I have seen. Just follow the instructions and you can adjust the guns however you want.

The author Vincent Farnham has got it all figured out, IMHO. His ideas of what the coding means is a bit different from other tutorials I have read, but I agree with his conclusions as I have tested them out and they work.

If you really want to get into depth you can research the ballisitcs of the rounds, and the performance of the weapon itself and put those parameters into the line code. But you can settle for the quick fix to change the gunners behavior and gun type and that will be enough to solve the defensive gun problem you are having.

After you have the guns and firing behavior set the way you want, check out his ideas on how to create a more competent and aggressive AI along with prgramming the guns.

BTW, don't command the file to save. Just close it and when it asks if you want to save it, say yes. Works better I think

24680.

[Finn]

Ok guys, and especially Sc7500 whoms recipy I followed. It is sofar a mixed success - now I can get as close to 400 meters before being shot up with deadly accurate fire. I am sure that gunner got glasses that help him overcome that >>L/R Angle>> setting but the weekend has just started, so I am sure to find the ríght cure. Thanks for all input guys - I am always amazed how much this community knows combined:salute:
Finn

[vidal]

I agree with B24 : the simpliest way to fix this is to change the trigger fron cannon to gun, for every defensive gun. I have used it many times, and it works fine.
:salute:

[Blue Devil]

Lot of ways to skin this cat...

The problem with the "gun" vs. "cannon" setting is that the gun setting doesn't aim, ...it just sprays.

Try this:

1. Double the rate of fire for twin gun mounts, ...and then use a single Bbl. (they both fire the same place anyway)

2. Drop the rate of fire to 1/3 of spec., ...to allow for just plain missing 2/3 anyway.

3. Set the round life so that it dies when it reaches its max effective range. (Life in sec. = 1/velocity x range)

4. Increase the max effective range by 1.5 for tail gunners on account of the fact that their targets are usually more stable so the accuracy should be better.

Should look like this:

; Upper Rear Gun: 7.92mm(MG 15) (1.5xLethal/Engagement Range)
gunstation.6=1,52,1,0.165,620,0.387,0.01,240,1,60, 1d1*2.7,0.000,0.650,-1.550,-5,0,180,-45,45,45,-5,1.07

[guns.6]
gun.0=750,0.000,0.660,-0.800,0,0,1,750

Note: gunstation "6" and weapon "52" is for my numbering system, ...yours may be different numbers.


This tailgunner will effectively engage you to 240 meters, ...further than that, ...it's just a light show.

Enjoy.

[Finn]

Hey Blue Devil - that did the trick. In the BF 110 in question the upper gun is number 2, not 6 as in your example, but otherwise I just copied your numbers without the slightest idea of their meaning, and took to the air. Now that deadly gunner can stil hit (but only with an 8 mm gun) at close range, and if I stay 500 meters behind, he is helpless. Now that part is much more realistic.
Thanks to all for your input.
Finn

[Seagull V]

While its up to each persons preferences there are a variety of considerations for effective ranges, what is the actual maximum effective range versus realistic "knock-down" range. Then there are the factors such as training, morale, skill, visability, quality control during manufacture, how worn out is the weapon ( I remember my first very old SLR that I was given for training while a Recruit - the bad guys would not have been overly worried about that weapon ) and so on. A few places/people take the maximum effective range and halve it for realistic range.

[Blue Devil]

While its up to each persons preferences there are a variety of considerations for effective ranges, what is the actual maximum effective range versus realistic "knock-down" range. Then there are the factors such as training, morale, skill, visability, quality control during manufacture, how worn out is the weapon ( I remember my first very old SLR that I was given for training while a Recruit - the bad guys would not have been overly worried about that weapon ) and so on. A few places/people take the maximum effective range and halve it for realistic range.

Well...

I start w/ the AvHistory 1% data (thanks, Guys) and go from there.

One out of three hits takes care of the accuracy factor...

...and the max E-range for the 8mm is only ~ 160 meters, ...pretty close for that round against a thin-skinned target from a flexible mount.

The way I figure it...

...hitting a bus at 240 meters from the back of a moving pick-up on a dirt road, one out of three rounds, is pretty good shootin', ...but not marksmanship.