IS MICROSOFT NEXT ?

[beana51]

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/19-iconic-products-that-america-doesn%27t-make-anymore-535569.html?tickers=f,ge,mat,DELL,MOT,aapl,bni

[stansdds]

We outsourced most of our manufacturing jobs (and continue to do so with the remaining few) and became a nation of consumers. Did anyone really think you can sustain an economy on consumption alone? Oh, sorry, evidently the answer was "yes". :frown:

[Roadburner440]

Well I hate to say this, but in my opinion it is the unions (both public and private) that have driven this. They have made it so bad that it is now cheaper for companies to pick up their entire companies, and move them overseas to use the cheaper labor. There's a lot more to it than that (this forum is to remain politic free, and I will leave it that way). We need to reign this kind of stuff in, start rewarding educated people (with college degrees), and make it cool to once again be smart/do something with your life again and maybe we can get somewhere. Until then everyone is going to sit back, say woe is them, and wait for their benefits to roll in. China, and Japan kick our hind ends in the education department. Until we situate that, and peoples rediculous compensation expectations jobs will keep leaving until there is none left, and we implode on ourselves.

[Rami]

China, and Japan kick our hind ends in the education department.

Amen! I work as a teacher (history, to be precise) and it has been my mission the last couple of years to completely revamp the way I teach the course and subject matter. Technology expertise is now a mandate for my students, and I also have them analyze and synthesize information. I refuse to give out multiple-choice or true-false tests, all of my answers require knowledge and the ability to make connections. There is an emphasis on collaboration and group work, and they also do web-based research projects, typing up college-level papers. I treat them as they would be treated in college, that way, especially for the seniors, it doesn't come as a shock.

When they leave my class, they actually have learned something. I just started working with the younger math and science teachers to revamp their classes, utilizing more of the same techniques, including working with some of the local businesses to provide realistic financial numbers for the students to work with, that way they can see how what they're learning in the classrooms has application out there in the "real world."

However, with the older teachers, I'm one of the "newbies" who thinks they can change the world, and all of my "high-minded ideals" just aren't the way they do things. In addition, working with the unions to try and force out bad teachers or teachers who are unwilling to adapt is nearly impossible, similar to trying to change the Massachusetts frameworks to focus more on technology, math, and science. It's like trying to bail out the ocean with a teaspoon.

I've thought about dropping out of the union over this, but if I did, I couldn't teach at all. At least my class performance numbers show that my techniques are working.

[Roadburner440]

Well kudos to you Rami for trying to change stuff. I wish there were teachers like you around here. Unfortunately our school administration looks at me and my wife like we are crazy when we tell them we think our son is doing horrible. They are not concearned at all, and only mentioned that if he does not improve by middle school that he will just receive a "special" diploma. I was completely taken back by this statement, but in all of my research I have figured out that they coin this as "social promotion." They do it because holding them back would hurt their feelings, and so on... It is teaching children though that just "doing your best" (which is really not their best) is acceptablem, and I am now seeing the results of such thoughts in new recruits in the US Navy.. Heaven forbid you tell them that they did something wrong...

[Rami]

Well kudos to you Rami for trying to change stuff. I wish there were teachers like you around here. Unfortunately our school administration looks at me and my wife like we are crazy when we tell them we think our son is doing horrible. They are not concerned at all, and only mentioned that if he does not improve by middle school that he will just receive a "special" diploma. I was completely taken back by this statement, but in all of my research I have figured out that they coin this as "social promotion." They do it because holding them back would hurt their feelings, and so on... It is teaching children though that just "doing your best" (which is really not their best) is acceptable, and I am now seeing the results of such thoughts in new recruits in the US Navy.. Heaven forbid you tell them that they did something wrong...

This is precisely where I think political correctness has gone WAY off the deep end. The real world is competitive and demands success...period. People who succeed and have ambition in life do well...and for those who don't..."the world needs ditch diggers too." I will never dumb down my lessons so that everyone succeeds. I will make every effort to help them to do so, but I end up having constant fights with parents, simply because I don't hand out "As" on everything. (You're ruining my son's chances at getting into Harvard!) Nope, they did that on their own, if they are capable of getting there in the first place.

Frankly, there's a reason why "C" is considered average. I simply demand that my students put effort in, and reward those that do handsomely. If they don't, they get a "D" or an "F," simple as that. Those who don't deserve to pass...well, they just don't.

If I don't teach them to put effort in now and teach them that being a productive member of society is facilitated by success and achievement, who else will?

[stansdds]

Dang, Rami! You sound like the teachers I had when I was in high school! Please, never give up and don't stop truly teaching kids. Too many teachers around here teach kids how to pass the SOL (Standard Of Learning) test and little else. If the kids pass the SOL, then their grades matter very little. They can even fail up to three classes and be promoted so long as they pass the SOL test. Back when I was in school, there were no SOL tests, you either passed all of your classes or you repeated them until you passed or turned 21 years of age, at which time you were booted out of the school system without a diploma.

[Bushpounder]

There are so few unions left in the US compared to what there used to be, that the unions cannot be used as an excuse. Plain out freaking GREED is what the problem is. Feeding the stockholders is a company's main job. Let's not forget the pay that many of the CEO's are paid! GREEEEEED! Oh .... and their Golden Parachutes as well! Employees are only numbers now, and are considered an overhead issue. The way to fix that is to move operations overseas for the cheap labor. There should be such a high tariff slapped on US goods made overseas, that the cost could NOT be passed onto the consumer. There would be no way anyone would pay the price of the goods. At the same time, companies here could produce the same goods and put the greedy bastards out of business. Making a profit is fine. I have no problem with profits. What I do have problems with is how they earn those profits, and the time in which they do it in. Greed and corruption run hand in hand and the ones who lose are the consumers and workers. Hell, we can't even make socks here anymore! Another thing that should happen is when a company offshores its business, they should be made to fly the flag of the country that they moved their phoney address to. Just my 2 cents. :)

Don

[Lionheart]

I saw the unions problems first hand in the auto industry. It was 'odd'. Growing up here in Phoenix, I was used to the boss being the boss, but when working for Chrysler, it was the other way around. To top that off, you werent supposed to work fast, if you did you were 'making waves' and 'making it bad for the others'. I saw the union as a hinderance. I was there to work and these guys were making it political.

But then I worked for ford and I really got a taste of why unions exist. I was working 14 hour days and being paid for 11 hours, and almost didnt get my last couple of paychecks. (We were testing test cars with the 'tires that go explodie' which the unions wouldnt touch, and we didnt know the perdicament we were in, hired on 'secretly' we found out. Still secret to this day).

What a mess...

I think we have some great people in the United States that just want a good job. Why cant we just have good jobs that pay fair?

Funny how most of the test drivers at Chrysler were making more then the Engineers. The Engineers worked pretty hard at their job and they were basically the bosses of the various programs. They had to walk on eggs to work with the employees. Man, that was crazy...


EDIT: How is it that BMW, Toyota and some others can come into our country and set up great factories and make good money and the people (Americans) are getting paid fair, but our own companies like ford, GM, etc, are outsourcing to other countries?

Before we know it, BAE and VW and Nissan will be made in America, and GM, ford, Chrysler will be Chinese corporations.



Bill

[txnetcop]

I agree that there were abuses of auto workers before the unions got involved and there are abuses in the non-union side of things but the unions now do more harm than good and just like in the 50s have resorted violence and bullying to keep their members in line. I have seen the dirty tactics of the SEIU up close and personal...it is time to dismantle the unions and come up with a better idea. The union "fat cats" are just gaining more power and pretending they care about their membership and working conditions. If you really are interested in seeing how rotten the AFL/CIO is take the rose colored off and look at what they do to force folks to "pay up and fall in line." They encourage work slow-downs that hurt our economy when they want to press a point. As as manager at food manufacturing plant in San Antonio I've experienced their bullying tactics and threats against my own family for hiding a friend's family members in our home. After a beating of my friend by several of their members my friend sued and won but the their threats continued even after the settlement.

AFL/CIO
http://www.nrtw.org/en/free-tagging/bullying

This is only one small facet of just how dirty they really are:
http://seiumonitor.com/category/dirty-tactics/

[huub vink]

Isn't there a much more basic problem which causes this? As company owner wants to produce for the lowest possible costs to sell more and workers in their factories want as much money as possible for the lowest amount of work. That is a very basic conflict, which made the workers create their unions and the company owners to take their production to "low costs" countries".

You can't blame one, because they both contribute equally to this problem. The company owners because they want to make too much profit and the workers for wanting too high wages.

But people in "low costs countries" don't earn enough money to buy the products they produce and in the "rich countries" the workers get unemployed and can't affort the company's products anymore. Luckily to compensate this, we in "the rich world" have banks which can loan us money to keep us spending.

This is called economics and there should be a balance. However greed from all parties involved, disturbs this balance.

When this balance get disturbed in a severe way we call it a crisis.

Nevertheless enjoy your day!
Huub ;)

[Bushpounder]

I agree 100%, Huub.

Don

[hey_moe]

If ya get a chance, look for a movie call Outsource ... that movie says it all as to why USA companies go overseas for there product and phone support. The number one thing that is a killer for large companies is TAXES. In a third world company, they don't have to pay taxes,retirement,medical,vacation..ect..ect. The pay is more like .50 to 1.00 an hour here is a good example : A 2 two ton central air compressor in the USA wholesale cost for about four hundred, that same compressor built over seas wholesales for less than a hundred. It cost more to ship it to the US than to build it.I was at a customers house last week and she paid around five grand for this top of the line BOSH refh. She was tickled pick with it because she was told it was made in the US. I opened the door to the REFH and under the data plate is said made in Mexico. She had a double chet.I really don't think you can buy anything in our country to where everything including all parts were made in the US.

[huub vink]

Although I hate to pay them, taxes aren't a punishment. As we pay things from this money which we wouldn't be able to afford on our own.

I personally like the fact there are hospitals, roads, emergency services, an army, some lights along the road and sometimes even the d****d traffic lights!.

As these wouldn't be there when we didn't pay taxes, I accept the fact I have to pay, even when I don't like to.

As the companies do not like to pay, I assume they don't like what is paid with it as well....

Cheers,
Huub

[stansdds]

I could get into this and discuss corporate greed vs. workers rights, unions vs. labor laws, and both fair and unjust tax structures, but I'll not and just say I'm in before the lock.

[txnetcop]

I could get into this and discuss corporate greed vs. workers rights, unions vs. labor laws, and both fair and unjust tax structures, but I'll not and just say I'm in before the lock.

LOL well let's hope it doesn't come to that...so far it's pretty civil :0)

[Roadburner440]

Well it is not my intention to get this thread locked. I have tried to leave the government and all out of it, and keep it strictly on the business side of it. I respect other peoples opinions anyway though, and if I am wrong about what I think I am wrong. I am always open to new ideas of thought. To me the unions would not be so bad if they did not take dues from their people, and worked in a more traditional sense. Growing up I always thought that they elected someone to represent them to the upper management (usually a senior employee), and that person with the consent of others would do the collective bargaining for the benefit of the rest.. Instead though it seems to me that the unions now take all of this money from their workers, and only represent the unions best interest not the employee's. Plus a lot of the smaller unions have been organized into the national (and now international unions) SEIU, and my mom's union the AFL-CIO. Which I point out to my mom all the time how her president (Richard Trumpka) is pushing for new global taxes and such, and using her due's to pay for it. Unfortunately my mom is backed into Rami's corner of if she doesn't pay she is back on the street with no job. On the flip side though if you had no unions then the companies would walk all over their employee's as has been said before (greedy corporations, just look at McDonalds/Wal-Mart).. At some point something is going to give, and I think that is going to be introduction of this living wage I keep hearing about. That will be the final nail in our coffin whenever that gets passed into law.

[beana51]

Thin Ice here...but!!...Simply put, Elections have consiquences..and if the recent results show that most Americans have said what they think about High taxas....it seems in those area's where tax's are lets say reasonable,Jobs appear...great Currant Example is the state of N.J....one of the highest taxed places in the US...Now has a Governor who will cut them...contrast that to our friends on the West Coast.... I think....Put to a vote...Tax's do not win!...Country was founded on the rejection of the TEA tax.Americans HATE taxes! Americans are Entrepreneurs!.Any one of us has the same opportunity to be what ever we want to..I think Bill gates Had profits in mind also??I do not think we would be on here with out his quest for success and yes Profits!!....in any event...Its Beyond Our Control....Death and Tax's that is!!!.....Bloviating is fun, and for some the louder they do, the more pleaserable the their gratification.It does not alter the consensus from quite people about their rejection of higher tax's. The Voting Booth is serous It has spoken,..and thats the finial answer!!.......A Famous mobster was asked in a DC inqury as to what did he did for his country???..He Replied.."I Pay my Taxe's' http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/icons/icon23.gif

[jmig]

I am just glad I am in a position financially that I have to pay taxes. So, I won't complain.

There have been abuses on both sides of the owner/union conflict. Personally, I think we need them both. Corporations will abuse the workers, if they can get away with doing so. Unions are the check and balance.

The main reason IMO that corporations will take advantage of workers is something Don (Bushpounder) alleged, That is the roll of stockholders. CEO are paid big bucks for one reason, to keep the stock value high. They will do anything within their power and (usually) the law to achieve this goal.

This again IMO is what has driven a lot of product outsourcing. The CEO can save money through outsourcing, the stock value goes up and he get his $100 million bonus.

I am happy to say there are a few companies like, SAS, USAA, Verzion Communications to name a few who have resisted the trend. They annually are considered some of the top companies to work for because of the way they treat employees.

[Roadburner440]

I really want to pay taxes.... I really wish they would just keep the $2000+ that they deduct out of my check every year, and that I wouldn't have to do a tax return at all. I think we could save so much money by just not dealing with that at the end of year, and having to pay people to do all the returns (I know it is analyzed electronically on the other end, but they still have IRS agents check them if I am not mistaken).. Would just be simpler if they came out and said we are deducting X% from your paycheck, we are keeping it, and you no longer have to fill out the returns. Businesses on the other hand would still have to file returns seeing as they would have to claim profits to get their taxes levied on them. The whole tax thing is a sticky subject I am sure, but we do need some government in order to function as a country.

On a side note USAA is an excellent company. I cannot vouch for them enough. Which is why I pay MORE for my car insurance than I would elsewhere. A lot of my fellow military members at work switch over just to save a few hundred dollar, but in my opinion you cannot beat USAA for service. When we had that illegal total our car last year they paid up within a matter of 2 weeks. They took care of everything though.

[TeaSea]

Getting back to the original topic of the thread......

Bottom Line up Front.....U.S. Companies outsource because products can be produced off-shore for less cost than they can be produced at home. This is largely because the costs of transport have dropped significantly over the last 40 years.

This is due to a number of reasons:


Transition to the SeaLand Van concept.
Inexpensive fuels.
Efficient and standardized business models.
Vastly improved communications and information technology.
Collapse of the Soviet Union.

Also, I would add that despite various regional conflicts, the world has essentially been at peace for some 60 years so there has been no major disruption of trade.

Previously, transport costs were THE cost in production and importation....they no longer are. Going offshore doesn't make U.S. Companies "greedy", it makes them smart.

The impact of course is that U.S. Labor cannot compete in the near term with off shore labor production of many basic goods. The union versus management dynamic is always an interesting discussion, but this situation would exist regardless.

However, this changes regards certain products and services that the U.S. excels at. No one in Sumatra is going to develop the next cutting edge chip that will power the world, or the next major upgrade in avionics that revolutionizes how aircraft fly, or the next level of Global Positioning that creates an entire new industry. Those things will occur in the West (for the near term). Folks in Sumatra are going to crank those babies our AFTER the technology is developed.

And we will buy them because our flight simulators won't run without them, and for some reason, we want them to cost as little as possible. I submit that doesn't make us "greedy" either.

[beana51]

Of course we have no choice BUT to pay tax's..For close to half of Americans do NOT pay tax's,like 47%....it was ironic to note during some choosing of high officials in government ,also do not pay there tax's...The very people to run our tax structure did not pay their tax's....yet these tax cheats today enjoy tremendous power as to how our tax's are collected.......Unfortuntly the hidden tax's are increasing...in your local food market,and every purchase we make!...the proposed energy tax looms ahead,.. as we all know .......The Concept of the "Flat Tax " is often mentioned!

The government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. ~Ronald Reagan

[Bushpounder]

The reason companies offshore their offices is to avoid or lower their tax obligations. Note, these savings are not passed onto the consumer, but rather to the shareholders. Goods remain the same price. Their tax obligations (that were once collected but are now gone) are then passed off to the people, as there has to be X amount of dollars in the coffers to accomplish the things that taxes are meant for. In other words, because these companies are not paying taxes or lesser taxes, it is up to the rest of us to pay the share they WERE paying. When one pays less tax, other must pay more to make up for it. If I could only figure out how to offshore my household and still stay here and reap the benefits of paying no or lower taxes, it would be great! :) I could afford more payware!! ;)

Don

[huub vink]

It is not my intention to accuse or insult anybody. I just tried to make the readers realise we are all part of the problem. Many things are driven by the fact we all want more.

However at least once every day we should realise what we have and think about the fact there are people in this world who have less water per week than the amount I flush trough the toilet each time I go there.

How do you explain to somebody in Somalia what an ambulance for animals is.......

But I'm the first to admit that I'm greedy as well and it is even getting worse! In 1981 I bought my first car. No power steering and the heating consisted of nothing more that a large valve via which you could divert the hot air from the radiator to the interior of the car.
In 2000 I bought my first car with power steering and although I had driven for many year without it I was immediately convinced I could drive a car without it any more. In 2004 I bought my first car with air conditioning. I'm convinced I cannot longer drive a car without it!

I own 4 bicycles.... how may can I ride at the same time.....

Every time a new model or scenery for FSX is released I'm convinced I should have it!

Spending money keeps our economy alive. That's why I don't feel guilty ;)

However at least once a day......

Cheers,
Huub

[Ripcord13]

Rami, I am also from Massachusetts and I am not going to throw in my $.02 because I might get banned for what I'd like to say about politicians and corparations and unions. But let me say this, I Salute you Sir, and Massachusetts and the whole country needs more people of your caliber.

S! Rip

[Aviator32]

Rami, I am also from Massachusetts and I am not going to throw in my $.02 because I might get banned for what I'd like to say about politicians and corparations and unions. But let me say this, I Salute you Sir, and Massachusetts and the whole country needs more people of your caliber.

S! Rip

And not just your country!

[b52bob]

I agree with most of what's been said. Unions were created by a need to protect worker rights however, they became a bigger problem. For example:

1. How can someone get paid $17/hour to sweep floors - the union
2. The premise of the union is that everyone is equal - they are not - the good workers can't get promoted because of senority.
3. The non-union workers usually get crapped upon because they have no representation.
4. Look at the maritime industry. Very few ships are US registered because you have to have union crews that cost way to much.

...and don't let me get started on lawyers!