Why are you the way you are?

[spotlope]

Forgive me if this is out of place. I don't post that often outside the FSX forum, so I might have misread the theme over here.

I've noticed that the opinions I read in this forum tend to espouse a particular world view that could be described as, well... conservative. Now I've never thought of myself in that way, at least not since voting for Reagan that one time right after I was old enough to cast a ballot. So generally, I feel pretty much out of the mainstream on FS forums, politically speaking. It made me begin to wonder... why exactly do I hold the views I hold? Why do any of us?

That last thing I'd want to start is a "my politics are better than yours" thread, which would be beyond useless. What I'd like to discuss, value judgments aside, is: are you aware of why you hold the views you do? Have you always thought the way you do now? If not, what changed your mind?

Since I brought it up, I'll go first. I was raised primarily by my mom and stepfather. Mom was pretty much apolitical - probably too busy raising four kids to even think about politics - but my stepfather was a red-in-the-face screaming racist bigot who thought just about everyone around us was an idiot, and didn't mind explaining that fact to anyone who would listen. He was also a drunk and a swindler, but that's another story. For whatever reason, the political manifestation of his toxic world view was that he was bellicose in his support of far-right politicians. That said, I'm not sure he ever voted even once.

My father, whom I idolized but with whom I didn't live, was an artist and self-described agnostic and liberal, a professor of design at the local art college. He was a gentle soul, generous and kind, who would go out of his way to help somebody out if they were down on their luck. He was also well-read and fiercely intelligent, and never met a Democrat he didn't like. I have to laugh thinking of it now, because he's exactly the sort of person that comes to mind when someone on Fox mentions the liberal elite. Except of course, that he wasn't rich enough to be classed as elite by any measure.

You can see where this is going, can't you? By the time I was in college and was starting to form my own views, I was already predisposed to a left-of-center mindset, just based on the facts of my upbringing. It really had much less to do with any rational decision or side-by-side comparison of viewpoints. Couple that with going to art school (not only was it where my heart lay, but it was free ;)), which is generally a hot-bed of liberalism, and the pathways in my young brain began to skew decidedly to the left.

I'd say by the time I was 25, my views were pretty well set. I've always had a touch of wanderlust, and I moved to the west coast around then, too, to San Francisco. I was smitten with the big-city atmosphere and the stark, dry beauty of that part of the state. As you can imagine, who did I end up meeting and befriending? More liberals!

Thankfully, I also met my wife. After the two of us got tired of the high cost of living in Silicon Valley and the constant gridlocked traffic, we looked for another spot to live that was a little calmer and more sane. She's from Hawaii, and wanted to stay close to her family by remaining on the west coast. We looked at Southern California (too plastic and too expensive), Seattle (great city, but too crowded - it was another Silicon Valley in the making), and that left us with Portland, Oregon. It's a gorgeous little city, very livable, even if it is too damn wet for six months out of the year. It's also, by and large, a liberal bastion, though it floats in a sea of red countryside. So by locality, most of our friends end up sharing our particular beliefs and views, and it just keeps being very easy to feel the way I do about life.

None of this is to say that I'm a mindless drone who doesn't regularly challenge himself. I watch the news, try to reason through my reaction to what is happening, and apply a little logic to my opinions. Let's face it, though; the pathways in my brain are very well-worn indeed now that I'm in middle age. What makes the most sense to me is what I've always known. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but I'm honest about why I feel this way.

So, how about you? Regardless of what opinions you hold, what shaped them?

[PRB]

Interesting question. My parents were life long Democrats from Maine. Today I find myself disagreeing profoundly with the philosophy that is at the core of both Liberals and Conservatives, socialism and religion, respectively. I suppose if you had to place me “in a box” it would be “socially liberal” and “fiscally conservative.” While I have no allegiance to any political party, on voting day I almost always vote for the Republican candidates. Always have. I believe in small government, low taxes, strong military, free market capitalism, the Constitution as it was written, and science. And I'm skeptical of all things religious, even though I'm very much interested in the history of religion, and don't feel threatened by religion. Science and religion are definitely my “liberal” side. I think my political views awakened in high school while endlessly debating my communist English teacher about socialism and the merits of nuclear power. And the teacher in high school I most admired was my political history teacher who was a navy LT. navigator in P-2s. These two teachers, the communist and the ex-Navy Lockheed P-2 navigator, influenced me the most during those days...

[Meshman]

Regardless of what opinions you hold, what shaped them?

From an early age I remember asking or thinking a simple question that I still practice today, "Why?". Serves me well and forms the basis for much of what my thought process entails.

Some thing is "x". Why?
Those people are different. Why?
Let's spend more taxpayer money. Why?
That's how it's always been done. Why?
and so on.

Plus, somewhere along the way I developed a simple, but very strong sense of right and wrong or bad versus evil. Makes for a simpler life. Some times boring, but as I creep closer to Social Security age, boring can be a good thing! :jump:

[Kiwikat]

Some times boring, but as I creep closer to Social Security age, boring can be a good thing! :jump:

Not boring at all! The problem with most people in this country is that they don't critically analyze their beliefs and ask themselves why they believe things.

I'll be posting a response to "why I am the way I am" sometime later when I get something written that I'm comfortable with.



I really hope this thread gets popular. I think we can learn a LOT about each other! :wavey:

[mmann]

I really hope this thread gets popular. I think we can learn a LOT about each other! :wavey:

I think we may also end up learning a lot about ourselves.

[OBIO]

This is a very thought provoking thread. My views and beliefs....to put it mildly....are a mixed bag of liberal and conservative...which I think is true of most Americans...and that is what I am first and foremost. An American. In my mind, the greatest single document ever written in terms of government and freedoms is the Constitution of the United States of America. If you want to know my views and beliefs, read that document. I believe that I have the right to say what I want to say, pray to whatever god or gods that I want to pray to, read what ever books and magazines that I want to read, keep and bare as many firearms as I want, and so on and so forth. Yes, I am one of those Porn Magazine and High Caliber Rifle kind of guys. I am an American!

And the key thing about the Constitution, in my mind at any rate, is that it is neither liberal nor conservative. It is both! It is balanced. And that is how my political/social views are...balanced.

OBIO

[spotlope]

The point of this exercise is not necessarily to talk at length about what we believe. That's easy. It's really more to dig into why we believe it. I'm not talking about "because it's right", because most of us feel that way about our views... at least I hope we do. But why do we believe them in the first place? That's where the rubber meets the road.

A lot of what I believe has fairly visceral roots, if I'm honest with myself. Based on early experiences, I despise a bully and someone who takes advantage of someone weaker than themselves -- hate it with a passion. If I think back to childhood, that's an easy one to trace. And yet, on close examination, it's one of the cornerstones of my world view: those with power simply must wield it responsibly. If they choose not to, then it's incumbent on the rest of us to see they do. Sometimes that wish runs afoul of someone else's idea of personal liberty. Somewhere in there is a balance, and the better part of life is trying to find it.

[demorier]

I'm like I am because I'm bloody unlucky.:wavey:

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Good question!
To keep it short and simple:

"If a man is not a socialist in his youth, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 30 he has no head"
- Georges Clemenceau, Former French Prime Minister and one-time radical.

There are many versions of this saying and many attributions of it but the original utterance seems to have been by mid-nineteenth century French historian and politician Francois Guizot, who said: "Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head". Note the french meaning of republican (opposing to royal) being "progressive".

Variations on this quotation were later attributed to George Bernhard Shaw, Winston Churchill and Bertrand Russell.

Heck!
I'm 44 now, but my heart still is pounding on the left side... :wavey:

Cheers,
Markus.

[JayKae]

Well, why am I the way I am ? War ... and peace is probably the best answer.

I shall explain. Being of Dutch-Jewish descent whose family went to Australia to flee from the threat of another Great War.

We write WWII, my family is in The Netherlands, the Nazi has overthrown the Dutch forces and gradually is rounding up the Jews of who The Netherlands has plenty of. My family goes underground to avoid being captured and deported. 2 parents, my mother, her 5 sisters and her 5 brothers live in a hollowed out haystack on the farm of one of the family friends. Then, one night, the Gestapo came and arrested them, someone had betrayed the family's friend trust, noone knows what happened there really. The family friend gets shot in the head, his wife raped and stabbed to death and the children taken, never to be heard of again.

They were sent to Westerbork camp in The Netherlands and got deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau a couple of months later. Here comes a point in my story which I will omit because it is pretty gruesome, let me just say that only grandfather, grandmother, a brother, as sister and my mother survived Auschwitz, the rest of my family was gassed because of what they were believed they stood for.

Now, you would think that my family hates Germans and would have passed that hate on to us, the next generation... think again. My grandfather, a wise and quiet man, a particular patriarchal man of great stature taught us and told us grandchildren as he would have told his own children that to hate your fellow man for what he did does not make for a united world, it does not make a situation which is done and over with any better and it does not help forgiveness to grow in your heart. "Hate is for the weak", he used to tell us, "to love your fellow man is much more difficult but once achieved is the greatest achievement you will ever experience"'

Highly educated, a calculated man he believed in a world in which we do not call ourselves American or Australian, Jewish or Christian, German or Russian, he believed in a world in which we call ourselves Cosmopolitan.

"To all work together, to know and accepts eachother for what we are is what makes us truly human" is one of his sayings, I try to live by his ideas, his morales, his values and don't get me wrong my own father was important to me of course but grandfather was just a special man, one who influenced a generation, I actually miss him so much to this day I am actually crying typing this last bit believe it or not, I miss him so much. He made me into what I am or at least try to be to other people, I try to be you because I would treat you the way I would like to be treated myself.

I hope that last bit makes sense and you get what I am saying here. Anyway, I will stop now, I suppose it gives you all a little more insight into who and what I am.

[flaminghotsauce]

I used to be a liberal. Totally. I grew up an anti-nuclear-power, pro animal rights, vegetarian leaning, pro-choice, free love, etc. kind of guy.

Then I had my first child. I realized, with a lot of intellectual 2x4's about the head from my wife, that everything I'd learned about abortion had been from leftward leaning sources. Pro-choice is a polite way of saying pro-killing. I'M pro-choice before conception. The choice is made to procreate which means to create life. AFter you choose to procreate, you don't have a choice that is moral except to begin life as a parent.

I began reading about politics instead of watching TV. Suddenly news made more sense. TV is poison, period. It is an informational gateway controlled by leftists.

Bottom line is, the more I educated myself, the more I found that Liberalism is built on lies,deceit, and sleight of hand. Logic follows logic, and I became Conservative. I'm now staunchly pro-life, as it's the ultimate litmus test. If you're willing to deny an unborn child it's Constitutional rights, you'll deny anyone anything. It's the ultimate litmus test for the liberals as well, as if you're not pro-choice, you don't move up to the national level of politics from the state level. We have had many pro-life, pro second amendment Democrat politicians completely reverse their views to go national. Ya just don't get campaign money if you are pro-life.

I discovered through reading the news myself, and exposing myself to the truth without slant, that the Constitution says one thing, the news media says it's another. I'm a Constitutionalist first, before any political party. That makes me, by current mainstream media standards, an extreme right wing Republican, though I'm not a member of the Republican party.

I'm WAY more giving, and caring since becoming a Conservative. When I hear that Conservatives are the greedy capitalists, I laugh now, as I know that description is coming from the greedy liberals who want more out of my wallet.

[Bjoern]

So, how about you? Regardless of what opinions you hold, what shaped them?

My surroundings and information.


I used to be conservative (partially growing up in the southwest), but with time I've gone liberal. But that's just a term for my personal mélange of politically left, right, green, conservative and liberal opinions on some matters.




After you choose to procreate, you don't have a choice that is moral except to begin life as a parent.

And what if you don't choose?

Let's say something goes wrong with the contraceptive (unlikely, but possible) and both parties don't want the kid.
Wouldn't it be better to just allow terminating the pregnancy instead of ruining two lives and putting an already ruined one into the world?

(Having kids isn't worth it unless you absolutely want to. I couldn't think of anything worse than having kids when I'm not even done getting *my* life on a satisfactory level.)

[Kiwikat]

Though I'm only 22, my beliefs have changed many times. I consider myself to be (quite) socially liberal and fiscally moderate. I find this to be a pretty well balanced way to look at the world. Let people be who they are and make decisions for themselves, and get out what you put in.

I still live with my parents (while I'm still going to college) so they've influenced me a fair bit over the course of 22 years. My dad isn't a right extremist, but he's quite conservative. He's also relatively religious, having been part of the Mormon church most of his life (though we stopped going to church more than 12 years ago). My mom on the other hand is fairly liberal. She's also very spiritual (note: not religious) and practices some of the Native American traditions. I do not have any siblings, so I'm an only child. That has certainly caused me to be a much more independent (and often closed) person. I never did really fit in with any of the groups at school. People my age really bothered me until college, where everyone's a little bit more mature. It may sound a bit antisocial but that's fine with me.

As a child, I did go to church until about the age of 10. I always found it to be boring and I had no interest in it whatsoever. My parents made me go with them though, so I did. Honestly I've never asked my parents why we stopped going to church. Maybe it was because the church was pretty far away from where we were living at the time? Perhaps it is something more. I need to ask my mom someday, because I feel there's something else to it. So anyways, I was told there was a God by my parents and church and went along with it for many years. Up through most of high school, I considered myself a conservative and republican, and even voted that way in the first election where I could vote. Slowly, things in my life changed and made me opened my eyes.

Since I was a teenager, I was always skeptical about religion. The more I examined my beliefs, the more doubts I had. For the most part though, peer pressure and American societal norms were enough to keep me a believer (note these are the WRONG things to make you believe ANYTHING). Late in high school, I really started thinking about who I was, like most other people that age. It became pretty clear to me that I was not religious nor conservative. Most of my other beliefs about people and life did a 180 as well.

Today, so many of the conservative social views absolutely dumbfound me. Religion baffles me even more. I often ask myself these few questions: How can people have the nerve to deny other people the same rights they themselves have? How can people have the nerve to deny other people the ability to make decisions that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES? How can people dedicate their life to God and the Bible (or any God/s and religious text/s) when they can't even give a decent answer as to WHY they believe? This is where many conservatives completely lose my respect, and it is why I'm no longer the same person I was before.

I know there's been a fair bit of religious content in my post. Identifying myself as an atheist is one of the things that has changed my life the most though. I have far more respect for life now than I did before. It has helped me understand many more things about myself and the world around me since I now use logic and critical thinking to evaluate ideas, opinions, and facts. Science is the true language of our world. The more we understand it, the more we will learn about why we're here and what we can do to make sure our species survives.

As you may have seen in my member of the week post, I'm an INTJ. INTJ's are essentially realists who ask "why" a lot. Their weak points are people and social situations. Their strong points are critical thinking and self-confidence.

I don't see myself ever going back to the "other side". I know people tend to turn conservative as they grow older. Since you pretty much have to be religious to be considered conservative, I never see myself going down that road again.

There's of course a lot more to the story but there's only so much I can write without boring all of you… Probably already did! :icon_lol:

Excellent thread! I hope others decide to post their story.

[flaminghotsauce]

And what if you don't choose?

Let's say something goes wrong with the contraceptive (unlikely, but possible) and both parties don't want the kid.
Wouldn't it be better to just allow terminating the pregnancy instead of ruining two lives and putting an already ruined one into the world?

(Having kids isn't worth it unless you absolutely want to. I couldn't think of anything worse than having kids when I'm not even done getting *my* life on a satisfactory level.)First, if you have sex, you're choosing. What is sex for? Why does the sex drive exist?

Second, it certainly wouldn't be "better" from the child's perspective. A child is a human. Under our Constitution, all persons are protected by law. How does this child get a fair trial before the death penalty is carried out? If the child gets no representation, is he or she not being denied their constitutional rights?
Third, having kids is ALWAYS "worth it". I wasn't ready to be a dad, but life happens and you take responsibility for your actions.
Fourth, "ruining two lives?" WTH? Children are the biggest blessings you will ever have in your life, all your life. I could think of multitudes of worse things than having kids than having such a selfish perspective of whether or not my life is on a satisfactory level.

Once I started living my life in service to others, and quit looking at all things from a me first attitude, my life turned around. I'm happier, healthier, and will live much longer. I now make more money, give more of my time and money, live a higher quality of life than I ever did worrying about myself. It all started when I had my first child. I now have nine. I would love to have more.
You speak as if you don't have any.

[dswo]

Since Bill's question was "why" not "what" I'm going to leave the "what" out and focus on the "why."

FACTOR #1
I voted like my parents until my late twenties. What changed? I got married, and my wife was a lot more informed than I was about 20C history and current events. I tried to debate her on principles, but I didn't know enough facts. It didn't happen right away, but when I looked at results, not just rhetoric, I ended up switching parties. My principles didn't change (much), but my perception of facts did.

FACTOR #2
Perception of facts is partly a function of news source. Do you get most of your news from (a) the New York Times, (b) NPR, (c) the Wall Street Journal, (d) Fox News, or (e) The Daily Show? It seems to make a big difference.

[Eoraptor1]

I had originally composed a long post for this thread, but for some reason, it didn't go through. I see now that it was my Guardian Angel doing her job. Let's just say that a "close family member of mine" was raped, and another close family member was pressured to take responsibility. Law enforcement knew he wasn't the rapist, but another party (who I shall not name) wanted him to take responsibility for insurance purposes. I was about to behave VERY VERY badly. I pledge my good behavior on the forum, but I won't be returning to this thread.

JAMES

[beana51]

The great deppersion.FDR!...WW2!....Korea!......Bob Hope...Frank Sanitra!...Ike, Regan,Neil Armstrong!...Gen. Douglas Mc Arthure..John Wayne, and all those wonderful American boys and girls,who sleep eternally in the Fields world over!And who are hero's forever. The dream and Promise of America! My rich European heritage.Faith !But most of all my Mom and Dad....of which I knew who the were!..They were the Greatest Americans I ever knew!!..Duty ,Honor, Country and Sacrifice! Were the words in our home...so long,long, ago!!

[Panther_99FS]

Today, so many of the conservative social views absolutely dumbfound me. Religion baffles me even more. I often ask myself these few questions: How can people have the nerve to deny other people the same rights they themselves have? How can people have the nerve to deny other people the ability to make decisions that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES? How can people dedicate their life to God and the Bible (or any God/s and religious text/s) when they can't even give a decent answer as to WHY they believe? This is where many conservatives completely lose my respect, and it is why I'm no longer the same person I was before.



I thought this thread was supposed to be about why YOU are the way you are and not a "beat-down" on others...

[mmann]

A thread like this is almost impossible to post to! No matter what you present as factors that contribute to the reason why you are the way you are, you are going to offend someone. Probably why they say silence is golden.

Regards, Mike Mann

[Bjoern]

First, if you have sex, you're choosing. What is sex for? Why does the sex drive exist?

For procreation actually. However, if it was for procreation only 'though, it wouldn't be that fun.


Second, it certainly wouldn't be "better" from the child's perspective. A child is a human. Under our Constitution, all persons are protected by law. How does this child get a fair trial before the death penalty is carried out? If the child gets no representation, is he or she not being denied their constitutional rights?

A lump of cells isn't (yet) a child in my eyes.


Fourth, "ruining two lives?" WTH? Children are the biggest blessings you will ever have in your life, all your life. I could think of multitudes of worse things than having kids than having such a selfish perspective of whether or not my life is on a satisfactory level.

Fact: Children cost money and time. If you have none of that, bringing them up will be hell.

Also: If both parties (say mom and dad) aren't one hundred percent comitted to having kids it *will* be better to pass that opportunity and take a later one when both are absolutely sure to be ready.


You speak as if you don't have any.

Look at my age. Having kids at 24 isn't common at all here if you're studying.

I have a ten year younger brother 'though. His autism isn't necessarily making me wanting to have kids later on, especially since *I* have to take care of him once my parents can't do it anymore.

[spotlope]

Again, I never meant this thread as a platform for an ideological flame war. What you believe is not nearly as important in this case as why you believe it. Thanks to everyone who has participated in that spirit - it's been most interesting so far. If you feel the need to explain to everyone how anyone who disagrees with you eats puppies raw, then I'm sure you'd be very welcome over at Canelo's Cantina. :rolleyes:

[Willy]

I agree that silence is golden. Especially when some people feel the need to pick other's posts apart. I'll just keep my stuff to myself thank you very much.



If you feel the need to explain to everyone how anyone who disagrees with you eats puppies raw, then I'm sure you'd be very welcome over at Canelo's Cantina


Nope, not at all welcome and you'll get on the staff's bad side very quickly. If you want to debate something, go to the Quarter Moon Saloon.

[spotlope]

It's sort of the way political discourse has begun to turn the world over, isn't it? I respect anyone who decides they'd rather not post or comment here, but I'm not giving up on the notion that we can have a sane, reasonable discussion of why we think the way we do. I'm the only person who gets to decide when I'm offended, and I'm choosing to let the more egregious remarks just roll of my back. Keeping communication open is much too important to let extreme views ruin the talk.

[Stratobat]

Hey Kiwikat,


Their weak points are people and social situations. Their strong points are critical thinking and self-confidence.

Do you find that you only have this problem with people your own age or with all social situations in general?


With regards to silence being golden, I like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata

Regards,
Stratobat

[Willy]

The thing is that a thread like this will either go political or get into a foodfight and this forum is no place for either. If you want to discuss politics or religion, take it to QMS. But not here.

http://quartermoonsaloon.com/forum/