Any news on the AlphaSim Eurofighter?

[lukecrowley571]

The FSX version of AS's Eurofighter looked like it was coming along nicely before the forums got canned. :banghead:

Has anyone heard anything about it since?

[Antoninus]

Nothing good, if this comes true.

http://flusi.movie2digital.at/index.php?page=Thread&postID=120489#post120489


Hi,

its status is uncertain at the moment - recent releases of FSX updates to FS9 models did not fare well compared to the amount of time spent making the model ready. We have to be sure the market will want it and that's by no means certain.

Despite what you may have read elsewhere, our forums were not taken down by us, they were destroyed by kackers (for the 2nd time). We will not put them back only for them to be destroyed again.

Best regards,

Phil,
AlphaSim Ltd

We just don't want to make any military models any more, the market is small and shrinking. The only place where effort is well spent now is the civilian aircraft market.

Best regards,

Phil,
AlphaSim Ltd

[war.ace]

military planes are the best!! what are they talking about?

[lukecrowley571]

This is indeed disappointing. Alphasim pretty much had the market to themselves for classic military jets, but if they switch to the civillian sector, they'll be going up against Dreamfleet, Carenado, Aerosoft and others. I for one think this would ultimately be more damaging to the company in the long run than continuing with the military jets. It would be like Maserati deciding to stop making sportscars so that they could concentrate on family hatchbacks, because that's where the bulk of the market lies.

[MCDesigns]

While it is indeed Phil's right to decide what they will design, it is just as much our right to vote with our wallets. Personally, there are already way to many non military designers out there and that is one of the reasons I even considered aircraft from AS, the military factor.

I wonder if enough don't support the civilian future at AS if they will reconsider their decision

[Pultacatt]

It would leave the door open for other designers to have a crack at the military market... But... Yes it would be a shame to see AS go civil.

[tigisfat]

Where did those quotes form Phil come from? They aren't from that German page, are they?

I find it very unlikely that Phil would give up on military completely. If that's true, then now I understand what happened to the C-17.

While I do like Alphasim's willingness to produce anything military so that we all have our obscure fantasies fulfilled, you can't knock producing anything military if the wierd oness don't work out. Captainsim certainly hasn't had a problem turning an extreme profit wiht it's C-130.

[Antoninus]

Post 17 and 18 on the first page. One Typhoon fan had contacted Alphasim and asked for the status of their Eurofighter.

[tigisfat]

it says that it's been completed though, right? I wish I spoke German at this point. Is Phil saying that he wo'nt release it because he doesn't want to do any more military or are they talking about a different developer's Typhoon?

[michael davies]

Where did those quotes form Phil come from? They aren't from that German page, are they?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I find it very unlikely that Phil would give up on military completely. If that's true, then now I understand what happened to the C-17. <o:p></o:p>
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While I do like Alphasim's willingness to produce anything military so that we all have our obscure fantasies fulfilled, you can't knock producing anything military if the weird ones don't work out. Captainsim certainly hasn't had a problem turning an extreme profit with it's C-130.<o:p></o:p>
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One of the primary delays on the C-17 was down to the panel and gauge man walking off, necessitating a lot of reworking to get new ones, additionally new ( sim/modeling) techniques were being implemented all the time and the model was getting nowhere except constant updating to keep up.<o:p></o:p>
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I personally, deep down, don’t think the C-17 will arrive, I'm not happy about that as I've sunk an inordinate amount of time into the project, as have many many others, but its a reality we all might have to live with.<o:p></o:p>
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Regarding the Typhoon, my gut reaction is that the panel and gauges might also be effected by the C-17 guy, that’s just a hunch on my behalf, nothing official, but seeing an almost perfect and ready to go screenshots and no release means something somewhere stalled it, and or some significant amount of rework or effort is required to finish it.<o:p></o:p>
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Remember also that Alphasim is a much reduced team these days, much work being done in house, meshes or external models your falling over, but gauges and sim integration, materials and modelling is still very very hard to come by, most external meshes I've seen will still hold up well in a good few years, I doubt you'll see much advancement in that area from Alphasim and probably many other developers too, what you will see is advancements in the VC area and new features specifc to FSx, and most of that has to be done in house.<o:p></o:p>
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Given also the new tack Alphasim is taking I think they are probably right to shelve it and use that time and effort on projects that will bring returns. I do know of one quite advanced project that has been terminated, it was never aired so no one looses, you cant miss what you didn’t know about :), so cutting back to essential projects is a reality. I suspect models like the Jaguar, Typhoon and C-17 will not be scrapped but put into storage, maybe for times when business picks back up.<o:p></o:p>
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Sad to say, much as everyone here loves military stuff and even the fringe stuff, we're not buying enough to support the continuation of supply, others do seem to be making an effort to plug the gap but production is slow compared to Alphasims recent 2, 3 or even 4 releases a month.<o:p></o:p>
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What does appear to be selling well these days is GA, light A/C, sports or trainers etc, they are quicker to build, easier too from a mesh point of view and probably from an FDE point too, gauges and systems are less complex allowing a developer to make a better product in less time and cheaper and thus....technically more sales. Complex systems are a drain on resources, not only CPU/GPU but actually modelling them, there’s two ways round that, don’t model them and get flamed for poor functionality, or two, just pick models that don’t require that sort of system, a business man will ( should ) always pick the later !.<o:p></o:p>
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Captsim is a little obscure to compare with, it is only one military aircraft in their inventory, it is significantly more detailed in systems than current Alphasim offerings of the same genre and they do have a larger clientele base who adore systems modelling, truth is, I suspect the C-130 sold significantly less than their B727 or B757.<o:p></o:p>
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One final point and probably quite important, Alphasim 'has' to make money, if they don’t they starve or loose their house / livelihood, almost all other developers I've spoken too use FS funds as an 'additional' income, in which case you can accept lower returns or poor sellers. The only looser there is the modeller who lost his time and being as most do it for the love of modelling or flight sims then in reality its not much of a loss, they'd probably still do it regardless of the returns.<o:p></o:p>
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So, I think your going to see more and more models like the Long Ez, T-34 genre, and at a lesser pace, but more detailed, to be fair that is what everyone has been hammering Alphasim to do, ie pick their game up, they appear to be doing just that, but ironically in areas that people don’t want....not here anyway, just proves the old adage, beware what you wish for LOL.<o:p></o:p>
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Michael

[IanP]

This ties in nicely with the point I was making on another thread yesterday about the complexity of models that people want.

You see I'd still be quite happy with models that are flyable from the VC, but without every switch and gauge modelled, but compiled for FSX - provided they were at a price that recognised that. I can't afford to spend $50 on an only fractionally complete model, but if it was a less-mass-market WW2 model than, say, a Spitfire, a Mustang or a B-17, particularly British right now, I'd get it at $30 or even pushing up to $40 - £20 is about my limit.

This is where Alphasim, in the past, had the market sewn up. They did cheap, non-mass-market impulse buys. Even if you weren't going to use them very often and knew that would be the case in advance, you were still more than willing to throw a few quid at them to be able to have a Douglas Boston, a Vickers Wellington or a Bristol Beaufort in our sims... I mention those three specifically because they are all old models that Alpha have released as freeware which I am now using as AI for screenshots. One of them might appear at the end of this month, if FCS are feeling nice. The other two I doubt we'll ever see for FSX or, for that matter, ever again. The return on investment for developers isn't sufficient to warrant the work.

Ian P.

[calypsos]

What I think we need is a company like the 'old' AS was, someone who can produce interesting military (or civil) models WITHOUT all the latest 'bells and whistles' but that can be downloaded cheaply (about 10 dollars US for example) and simply. With default sounds and gauges that may not be 100% perfect, but look the part. These models could be released on a regular basis, piracy would be less of a problem if the price is low too.

Think of the stuff that Phil has just made freeware, if the models were of stuff that had not been covered (think Meteor NF's, F-102's and Globemasters for example) and they were of this quality, would you guys here by them?

Maybe the quest for 'ultimate realism' in payware has helped kill it, we will always be more leniant with freeware, so how about a halfway house?

EDIT Sorry Ian, whilst typing (I was busy elsewhere and the posts crossed) this, your post above seems to be of the same theme! At least two of us is singing from the same songsheet!

[Tweek]

This ties in nicely with the point I was making on another thread yesterday about the complexity of models that people want.

You see I'd still be quite happy with models that are flyable from the VC, but without every switch and gauge modelled, but compiled for FSX - provided they were at a price that recognised that. I can't afford to spend $50 on an only fractionally complete model, but if it was a less-mass-market WW2 model than, say, a Spitfire, a Mustang or a B-17, particularly British right now, I'd get it at $30 or even pushing up to $40 - £20 is about my limit.

This is where Alphasim, in the past, had the market sewn up. They did cheap, non-mass-market impulse buys. Even if you weren't going to use them very often and knew that would be the case in advance, you were still more than willing to throw a few quid at them to be able to have a Douglas Boston, a Vickers Wellington or a Bristol Beaufort in our sims... I mention those three specifically because they are all old models that Alpha have released as freeware which I am now using as AI for screenshots. One of them might appear at the end of this month, if FCS are feeling nice. The other two I doubt we'll ever see for FSX or, for that matter, ever again. The return on investment for developers isn't sufficient to warrant the work.

Ian P.

Couldn't agree more. I've already used the scenario where if they still priced their models in the £10-12 range, as opposed to £20-30, they'd probably have a good £70-80 of my money, as opposed to the £25 I spent on one addon. I feel that if I'm having to break into the 20s, it has to be an aircraft I really do want. I can't afford to pay that much for an aircraft that I haven't had my sights set on for a while. The whole point of AlphaSim was to provide those aircraft at a cheap price so lots of people would buy them on impulse. It also made you want to support the actual company, as they stood out from the rest, creating aircraft that no other companies dared touch. You saw many people repeatedly buying from AlphaSim, addon after addon after addon, but nowadays there simply are very few people who can, or are willing do that. By the time you've bought 4 models, you've gone and spent £100!

Now with the likes of the T-34C, which is recieving rave reviews, perhaps AlphaSim's aircraft are going to start living up to those high price tags, although it's still disappointing that, with the odd exceptions, they're just going to become like every other company on the market.

[michael davies]

Alphasim will never go back to the free and easy cheap and quick market, chances are no one else will fill in behind either, its easy to write use default gauges or sounds but you look at models that do that, especially payware and then look at the criticism and scorn heaped apon them.

Sadly as a community we have driven the market to these new heights and made cheap and cheerfull models to be something to be looked down apon. People want, demand and expect fully integrated and maximum functionality at cheaper prices I'm afraid.

I dont think cheap, cheerful and quick is the way to go, that was Alphasim biggest mistake IMHO, not pirates, not FSx, not 3rd party models or even bad press and forum upsets, but sheer quantity shipped. They simply swamped the market place, there is only so much fish in the pond, more hooks or more bate doesnt equate to more bites, it just makes the fish fat, lazy and ultimately turns them off. I'm convinced a steady flow of reasonably priced mid range models will reap more returns than mass dumping of models each month onto the market, but hey, talk is easy :).

Best

Michael

[lukecrowley571]

I agree with Michael, quality over quantity.

Getting back to the Eurofighter itself for a minute though; apart from the fact that I want it, I honestly think it would make good business sense to finish it off and get it out there.

I can understand how the team would have reservations about upgrading some of the less popular models, but it's not as if the Eurofighter is some obscure Cold War jet that only diehard fans (like me :mixedsmi:) have ever heard of. Most people have at least heard of it, it has had quite a few TV appearances recently (Top Gear, to name but one), and it is set to become one of the most important next-generation fighters, alongside the F-22 and F-35.

If a publishing deal with Flight 1 (or even Just Flight) could be negotiated, and yes, I know this all costs money, I reckon it would be a pretty hot seller. If it was actually out on the shelves, I'd say it would have a fairly big draw for 'casual' simmers ("P-38, what's that? Wow, Eurofighter! Cool!"), which all translates into more sales.:greenbo:

[michael davies]

I agree with Michael, quality over quantity.

Getting back to the Eurofighter itself for a minute though; apart from the fact that I want it, I honestly think it would make good business sense to finish it off and get it out there.

I can understand how the team would have reservations about upgrading some of the less popular models, but it's not as if the Eurofighter is some obscure Cold War jet that only diehard fans (like me :mixedsmi:) have ever heard of. Most people have at least heard of it, it has had quite a few TV appearances recently (Top Gear, to name but one), and it is set to become one of the most important next-generation fighters, alongside the F-22 and F-35.

If a publishing deal with Flight 1 (or even Just Flight) could be negotiated, and yes, I know this all costs money, I reckon it would be a pretty hot seller. If it was actually out on the shelves, I'd say it would have a fairly big draw for 'casual' simmers ("P-38, what's that? Wow, Eurofighter! Cool!"), which all translates into more sales.:greenbo:

Technically your reasoning is sound....if the Typhoon is as popular as you say it is, sadly whilst it is reasonably popular it will never sell as much as say a A-4 Skyhawk, Seaking, Phantom or pretty much anything fast and US, some people find this hard to understand or stomach but after nine years in payware and wanting to make a return, then US is the 'top' market, end of :).

Summising further, lets consider the Typhoon to be a good seller in the secondary market ( Europe ), lets also summise that the reason its not finished is the gauges and cockpit fidelity, this sort of work does not come cheap, no sir, that aspect of modern complex planes can cost almost as much as the whole model mesh its self these days. Lets assume that it costs £1500 to finish off the model, sell the model for £30, deduct web fees, payments to others and sundries and your looking at maybe a profit of £5-7 per sale. Using those very broad figures you would have to sell between 200-300 to even begin to make a profit after paying the gauge specialist. Whilst the figures are neither wholly accurate and are used broadly, they are used to try and explain that sometimes, putting more money in does not get the returns expected / required.

Now I do know what all this costs, I do have a good idea of what sells and how well, based on that and based on a summation that its the gauges that need finishing ( thinking laterally, note how all recent releases use 'real gauge' technology...ie in house and not bought in XML ), then Phil has made exactly the right business decision, if the model was the C-17, or a new B-1, F-14 or some such other high yield model then its the wrong decision, however, sad fact as it may be to many, the Typhoon is not a top seller, an F-15 or F-111 would out sell it four or five times over.

No amount of vocal wails and forum posts alter the basic fact, some stuff just does not sell, reality is that the stuff you hear about most on fourms doesnt sell as well as the quiet stuff. when you run a business you cant run it on forum vocality, you have to react and run it on sales and profits.

Regarding UK stuff, theres only a hand full of stuff that will definately sell well, Spitfire, Lancaster, Concorde and Red Arrows, if Skysim had opted for a Hawk pack with a Red Arrow repaint it would not have sold as well as a Red Arrow with a RAF repaint. Even the US Seaking pack out sold the European one, essentially the same models but a vastly different interest in each pack.

Best

Michael

[jdhaenens]

Fascinating stuff, Michael. So I should stick to American Bases? LOL

[spotlope]

Damn, this torpedoes my plans to model every small GA field in Lithuania, too. :banghead:

[UKMIL]

there are other orgs, such as ours that are happy to do UK based mil stuff. However, we do not have the scale of team that AS had, and cannot produce them as quick, so the market just has to wait. We are always looking to recruit more skilled members, to keep this market of UK mil planes going, but everyone wants to go payware now, and few developers will work for freeware. Now having said that, if a design team, of good strength were to come knocking we could produce some low priced good quality payware. But there just are not the talents there to keep it going

[michael davies]

Woah guys LOL, I'm talking specifically payware and even more specifically Alphasim, in many ways they are unique in payware but thats a bonus as well as a hindrance. The one thing thats sets Alphasim apart is that it has 'staff', as I said above, no or very few other payware outfits rely solely on FS income to survive. What Alphasim consider to be low yield may well be perfectly suitable for another payware company who is not forced to look at the balance books when deciding on a new project.

Take Skysim for example, the Hawk whilst very popular ( Red Arrows notes apply above ) would probably not be a factor at Alphasim, neither would the new Mirage pack thats coming through the ranks.

Alphasim has evolved from a cottage industry to a full business...or is trying to, that changes everything, they cant run the risk of just one dud seller these days, in the old days you could use your top flyer's to prop up the odd balls that were sporadically released, they just cant do that anymore, it has to be at least in the top 30% demand market to be viable.

Now how you define the top 30% is personally subjective, but one factor that you cannot ignore is the balance book, in a business that defines your top 30%, not forums or personal desires. It means that Alphasim is making models it has too, not models it necessarily wants too, I know Phil is a devote and avid fan of obscure UK aircraft, all those funnies you saw in the old days were driven by Phil, thats his passion....but its no good for the balance book, therefore you have a CEO making models that probably really do not interest him. Despite my many ups and downs, private and public and disagreements, I still give the man credit for stomaching that hard choice in business matters, I doubt theres many developers here who dont model subject matter through choice, I certainly refuse to do it any more and I think you'll find that all of the staff that have left Alphasim have the same view, we do it as a paying hobby.

How or what others do in their own circumstances is down to them, but my gut tells me that 80% of the rest do this for a passion and in that case....make what you want and not what you 'think' others want, so, Jim, make what ever base takes your fancy, Spotlope, make all the GA bases in Lithuania....its your sim, make your sim work for you. I've got a load of models planned that in reality will probably not interest one single person here, but that will not change my passion or interest one bit.

There is a chance others will have an interest, but if they don't ?, who cares, your happy, you did the work, your sim works for you, if others are not happy then they know full well where to get the tools to do something about it :).

I'm trying hard not to defend Alphasim, but realise it might appear so LOL, I think they have done some terrible things in the past, I hope they have learnt from it, but I have and always will give them credit where credit is due and in business matters Phil has done exactly what 'he' needs to do to survive and I'm sure some of the decisions have not been pretty or easy.

So for those that dissent toward Alphasims choice of subject matter, please remember this, its not the bread on your table, the gas in your boiler, the bed your babe sleeps in, and most important of all, be thankful that you do have the choice and ability to walk away, some don't, granted their shackles might be by choice, but sometimes some people cant walk away that easily.

Best

Michael

[jdhaenens]

OK, Bill...tell you what, we'll settle on Outer Mongolia, an airport that is GA on one side of the runway and Military on the other. We'll swap sides in the middle of the development and see what happens. I'll start looking for a likely candidate. :jump: But wait, no. What are you doing waisting time on posting when you should be working on Emma Field?:costumes:

[tigisfat]

I think that you summed it up the best here. We can say whatever bad or good we have to say about Phil and Alphasim, but we all hoped this would happen, and it bit us in the butt. Every single guy that was nuts about an obscure and rare aircraft was lucky enough to have it made by Alphasim, albeit in low fidelity. Those people went so crazy about it they just had to openly wish for more in-depth modelling of said aircraft. I guess that coupled with reduced sales was bound to change Alphasim forever. I am glad, however, the direction they've taken in quality.

As for the Typhoon, it makes sense to release if it's this close. To not release it would be the way to lose the most time/money. If they wait to long, the day will pass when it's quality is on the cutting edge. I feel the exact same about the C-17. I'm pretty sure that the C-17 would make a good boxed set too.

I'm trying to be realistic about this, and take a common sense neutral stance. There are great and talented people from Alphasim, and there are jerks. The jerks shouldn't mean that every time something happens we don't like, we attribute it to that.


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One of the primary delays on the C-17 was down to the panel and gauge man walking off, necessitating a lot of reworking to get new ones, additionally new ( sim/modeling) techniques were being implemented all the time and the model was getting nowhere except constant updating to keep up.<o:p></o:p>
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I personally, deep down, don’t think the C-17 will arrive, I'm not happy about that as I've sunk an inordinate amount of time into the project, as have many many others, but its a reality we all might have to live with.<o:p></o:p>
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Regarding the Typhoon, my gut reaction is that the panel and gauges might also be effected by the C-17 guy, that’s just a hunch on my behalf, nothing official, but seeing an almost perfect and ready to go screenshots and no release means something somewhere stalled it, and or some significant amount of rework or effort is required to finish it.<o:p></o:p>
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Remember also that Alphasim is a much reduced team these days, much work being done in house, meshes or external models your falling over, but gauges and sim integration, materials and modelling is still very very hard to come by, most external meshes I've seen will still hold up well in a good few years, I doubt you'll see much advancement in that area from Alphasim and probably many other developers too, what you will see is advancements in the VC area and new features specifc to FSx, and most of that has to be done in house.<o:p></o:p>
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Given also the new tack Alphasim is taking I think they are probably right to shelve it and use that time and effort on projects that will bring returns. I do know of one quite advanced project that has been terminated, it was never aired so no one looses, you cant miss what you didn’t know about :), so cutting back to essential projects is a reality. I suspect models like the Jaguar, Typhoon and C-17 will not be scrapped but put into storage, maybe for times when business picks back up.<o:p></o:p>
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Sad to say, much as everyone here loves military stuff and even the fringe stuff, we're not buying enough to support the continuation of supply, others do seem to be making an effort to plug the gap but production is slow compared to Alphasims recent 2, 3 or even 4 releases a month.<o:p></o:p>
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What does appear to be selling well these days is GA, light A/C, sports or trainers etc, they are quicker to build, easier too from a mesh point of view and probably from an FDE point too, gauges and systems are less complex allowing a developer to make a better product in less time and cheaper and thus....technically more sales. Complex systems are a drain on resources, not only CPU/GPU but actually modelling them, there’s two ways round that, don’t model them and get flamed for poor functionality, or two, just pick models that don’t require that sort of system, a business man will ( should ) always pick the later !.<o:p></o:p>
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Captsim is a little obscure to compare with, it is only one military aircraft in their inventory, it is significantly more detailed in systems than current Alphasim offerings of the same genre and they do have a larger clientele base who adore systems modelling, truth is, I suspect the C-130 sold significantly less than their B727 or B757.<o:p></o:p>
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One final point and probably quite important, Alphasim 'has' to make money, if they don’t they starve or loose their house / livelihood, almost all other developers I've spoken too use FS funds as an 'additional' income, in which case you can accept lower returns or poor sellers. The only looser there is the modeller who lost his time and being as most do it for the love of modelling or flight sims then in reality its not much of a loss, they'd probably still do it regardless of the returns.<o:p></o:p>
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So, I think your going to see more and more models like the Long Ez, T-34 genre, and at a lesser pace, but more detailed, to be fair that is what everyone has been hammering Alphasim to do, ie pick their game up, they appear to be doing just that, but ironically in areas that people don’t want....not here anyway, just proves the old adage, beware what you wish for LOL.<o:p></o:p>
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Michael

[IanP]

The Eurofighter may not be US mass-market, but it will sell. It's modern, it's in the news and on adverts. So will the C-17 for the same reasons. The sad fact is that high-fidelity, full cost, versions of the niche products that Alphasim have always done before won't sell sufficiently well to cover the production costs.

Regarding your comments, tigisfat, I agree to a point, but I wouldn't say that people "asked" for more detail in the products. "Demanded" would be a better term. The occupancy of this hobby has gone from being glad for what it can get to being demanding to the point of being often downright obnoxious and constantly expecting more for less cost and in shorter timescales.

Unfortunately Alphasim gave in to this. They not only increased the depth (and the cost), but they tried to keep going at the same unsustainable release rate. The market squeezed, and Alpha couldn't cover their costs. Something had to give and it has. The people demanding more and more have cost themselves their only source of what they wanted. Unfortunately, they've also killed off the only realistic source of add-ons for those with their feet more flat on firm ground as well. We all lose.

Freeware is never going to be able to cover much for FSX, because individuals are not very often capable, these days, of creating everything that makes up a model to the depth that "the market" will accept. Even those that can - either because they're just too clever for their hats, or because they team up - can't release that quickly because things take so long to develop. The result is fewer niche products.

Welcome to the price of "progress".

Ian P.

[Panther_99FS]

Freeware is never going to be able to cover much for FSX,
Ian P.

And speaking of freeware aircraft....
Just imagine where we'd be in FSX if Piglet had chosen to stay with FS2004....:kilroy:

[N2056]

Man! You got that one right...I really had to make a tough choice personally regarding my work, and it helps me to appreciate the work Tim does that much more.

A toast to Piglet! :ernae:

[deathfromafar]

And speaking of freeware aircraft....
Just imagine where we'd be in FSX if Piglet had chosen to stay with FS2004....:kilroy:


I fully agree. In fact, I think before it's over, freeware FSX development will spread it's wings quite well. The window of opportunity is still wide open.:running:

[IanP]

Piglet comes under the heading off being too clever for his own good... It means we'll keep badgering him for more and more models! :d

Ian P.