Fueling the discussion...

[hubbabubba]

As the thread Conspicuous by Their Absence is turning into a buffet, I'm taking upon myself to open a new thread with one of the very off-topic, but quite interesting, subject of fuel, range, tank's capacity and air files style.

To summarized, smilo was complaining about Mosquito aircraft not living up to expectations range-wise. Ivan explored one model and I explored Roger Lowery's nice RAF662 Mosquito FB 6 v. 2.5 to discover that its AIR file was only containing 57.6 gallons in the Main Center tank (section 531), 92 gallons in the main right tank (section 526) and 92 gallons in the main left tank (section 525).

On top of that, it had section 303-1003, normally associated with "FS98 style" AIR files, characterized by the absence of a 505 section. So, it was carrying 546 gallons as "dead weight".

On a parallel topic, Ivan was in search of a fuel switch capable of selecting left auxiliary, right auxiliary, main right, and main left tanks.

For details, go foray in Conspicuous by Their Absence buffet.:isadizzy:

[hubbabubba]

Hello:wavey:!

"My" gauge is from Jay Crawford and, from the look of it, so is smilo's.

I have updated Roger Lowery's Mossie AIR file to include the following;


Fuel Center 1 Tank (section 531) 60.047520 gallons
Fuel Left Main Tank (section 525) 171.735900 gallons
Fuel Right Main Tank (section 526) 171.735900 gallons
Fuel Left Aux Tank (section 527) 69.655130 gallons
Fuel Right Aux Tank (section 528) 69.655130 gallons


These odd numbers reflect the translation from Imperial to US gallons for the FB 6 according to Pilot's notes.

Sections 302 and 1003 were removed.

BTW Ivan; according to Pilot's notes, the FB 6 long range center tank of 63 Imp gal is in addition to the 2x25 Imp gal of the center tanks.

When left to work on their own, auxiliary R-L and central tank are being emptied first, the main R-L tanks in "waiting pattern".

In stock a/c, all are using central main tanks. The Fw 90 is using 1-2-3 tanks and is emptying tank 3 first, then tank 2, then tank 1.

I will have to check emptying priorities before trying to see if "my" gauge is working on them.

It may take a while as family obligations will keep me away from the PC for the day.

[Ivan]

Hello Hubbabubba,

I am not quite sure what you mean about stock aircraft using central main tanks. The P-51D uses two 92 gallon wing tanks as main tanks. The Stock Hurricane also uses two large wing tanks as main tanks. Perhaps I just don't understand what you are stating here.

BTW, FWIW, just about every day priorities keep me away from my PC for most of the day.

- Ivan.

[smilo]

smilo was complaining about Mosquito aircraft not living up to expectations range-wise
really? I thought I was just pointing out a discrepancy.
okay, whatever

------------:kilroy:--------------

attached is the switch I found.
the read me is by Chuck Dome.

[hubbabubba]

Hello Ivan,:wavey:

You're right. In AirEd, sections do not appear in order, unless you make them, and those two slipped by.

Hello smilo,:wavey:

I thought I was just pointing out a discrepancy. You say tomatoes...:kilroy:

There is a proverb in French; «Qui résume trahit.» (Who summarize betrays.)

I just downloaded the gauges. I stand corrected; they are indeed from Chuck Dome. Jay Crawford's gauges are very, very, but very similar. I will test them as well with CFS1 tanks.

[Ivan]

The P-40 Series also had three fuselage tanks. I am actually using the FW 190A fuel selector for these planes. Late models of the Spitfire also had three tanks. The funny thing is that in the Pilot's Manual, it is stated that they are NOT to be used on any of the Spitfires with a bubble canopy.

I wonder how the "Default" fuel load is determined. The F4U-1A I built a long time ago has two ferry tanks in the wings which are not to be used on combat missions. The fuel tanks on the Dauntless are not to be filled to capacity except for on non-combat missions. I don't know why yet.

The Birdcage Corsair (F4U-1) only has a single main fuselage tank as does the F4U-1D. The F4U-1D had the wing tanks removed because it used drop tanks for increased range.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hello all,

Yesterday evening, I went for a bomb run in the modified FB 6. Fuel tanks were placed along their CoG using DPEd blueprints as reference. This affected seriously the flying characteristics of the "Wooden Wonder".

Main central tank was placed 3.28' aft and 0.10' of a/c Cog (original was 3' fore and leveled up/down), main wing tanks were placed ±4.69' right/left, 0.95' up and leveled fore/aft (original were ±5.1' right/left and leveled up/down and fore/aft). The "new" auxiliary wing tanks were placed ±18.11' right/left, 0.69' fore, and 1.74' up.

Full ammo and four 500lbs bombs.

I started the flight using "local time", which was around 2230 jours. I crashed twice before succeeding; the aircraft, on the first t/o, was on AP and, upon leaving the ground about ½ of the runway length, the port wing went down. The second time, I took off manually and used the whole runway to pick up speed. Same result; as I left the ground, the port wing went down and I was unable to recuperate.

I knew that the tank's positions was going to be a problem. They are all up the a/c Cog and the wingtip tanks are really far out. I was tempted to "cheat" tank's positioning to facilitate handling but decided to try another time to take off. Going full throttle with the stick full right on the ailerons, I picked up speed and, keeping the ailerons full right, I pulled until the left wing was up,easing off a little to get the right wing leveled.

As I was turning to get to a heading of 85°, ailerons became more responsive and I was able to engage the AP for a power climb to 15,000' at 2,500 fpm VS. Fuel consumption was around 127-130 Gph (gallons per hour). I reached the 15,000' mark about half-way over the Channel and throttled back to 60%, adjusted mixture to lean and prop pitch to fine, getting about 52-53 Gph. I was still able to reach ±240 mph TAS. I then started to climb to 20,000' at 1,000 fpm VS, keeping throttle at 60% and adjusting pitch and mixture to keep fuel consumption as low as possible, between 50 and 55 Gph. I reached 20,000' at the Netherland-Germany border and went for 25,000' in the same manner. Average speed was between 180-185 mph.

I reached 25,000' around 9° east and, after letting the aircraft get to ±240 mph, I started my final climb to 30,000', but had to take a "pause" at 27,500' because the AP had a rough time controlling pitch. Central main tank was almost emptied and wingtip tanks were still carrying about 18 gallons each. I decided to fly level a while to pick up speed. The AP was giving me a bumpy ride; not only was the aircraft nosing up and down, but roll axis was forcing the controls to go in a series of right-left banks. Reaching 225 mph helped a bit, but only a bit.

Approaching 11° east, I went into a very soft climb to 30,000'. Prop pitch was at its finest and mixture at its leanest and fuel consumption was at ±50 Gph. With central and wingtip tanks emptied, I still had 63% fuel. Leveling at 30,000', speed reached an honorable 240 mph.

Approaching Berlin, I went full throttle as I had still 52% fuel in an attempt to stabilize my flight path. I reached a whooping 345 mph and the weaving ceased... but not the bobbing!

My four bombs hit Berlin east side, which is not too bad considering that I was bombing without a bomb sight in an roller coaster. I turned back to home, heading 265°, at full throttle, reaching 360+ mph.

Returning to 60% throttle, I let the aircraft alone and went for a late-snack and a DVD. It kept a constant speed just over 300 mph. I started my descent at the German-Netherlands frontier and got my best fuel consumption around 15,000' (42 Gph). I finally landed at Martlesham with 11% fuel to spare.

So now the Mossie can do its Berlin milk-run. But it still need a lot of tweaking, especially to get a stable flight under AP control.

This is probably why a/c should not engage in combat with heavy loads on the wing tips. It is like having a ballerina do a spin with 50lbs dumbbells in each hands! The only time I felt I could have a dog fight during the flight was when I was around 26% fuel. More than that would have meant fighting with shackles.

O yeah; The flight ended around 3 O'clock, real time. 4 hours +.

[hubbabubba]

Hi!

This is how I intend to proceed to verify fuel switch gauges;

I will modify the already tweaked RAF 662 FB 6 to include all possible tanks (sections 525 to 533 inclusively).

I will let the tanks empty themselves without intervention to verify the emptying sequence (I will reduce capacity of the tanks to a few gallons to expedite matters).

I will install all fuel switches one after another on the same panel (probably my "work in progress" P-47D bomber panel) and test if they interact with "CFS1 style" tanks and, if they do, how they interfere with fuel sequence.

I will probably test some switches all at the same time when correlations may be instructive (for example, how a switch without central position do manage central tanks?).

I made a preliminary test with "smilo's switch" and I can say that it affects the emptying sequence, but not entirely. More on that later.

If you think I'm missing anything, just tell me.

I will report back in 2-3days.

[Ivan]

What are you using for switches to select each tank?

What are you using for a gauge? Is it digital?

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

What are you using for switches to select each tank?

What are you using for a gauge? Is it digital?

- Ivan.

Right now, I'm letting CFS1 do the emptying its own way, each gauges that I've found will be tested and compared to "no switch" results.

To verify tanks emptying, I use one of Sparks gauge called jwb_dtank.gau:

16804 This gauge detects CFS1 or FS98 tanks and lets you verify how much fuel is left on each tanks. If the tank is being emptied, you can see the numbers dropping in the "Level" window. You can also dump all the fuel of a specific tank by clicking on "Dump" button, which accelerates the testing.

[Ivan]

Thanks Hubbabubba,

That is the same gauge in the test panel you showed me.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Thanks Hubbabubba,

That is the same gauge in the test panel you showed me.

- Ivan.Yep!

-----------------

FUEL EMPTYING SEQUENCE


Tanks available;

Tanks being emptied from the start.

All tanks full;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left, Center 3.

Center 3 empty;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left, Center 2.

Center 3 and 2 empty;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left, Center 1.

Center 3, 2 and 1 empty;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left.

Center 1 empty;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left, Center 3.

Center 1 and 2 empty;

Wing Aux right, wing Aux left, Center 3.

Center 1, 2, 3 and wing Aux right an left empty;

Wing main right and left.

Center 1, 2, 3 and wing Aux right empty;

Wing Aux left, wing main right.

Center 1, 2, 3 and wing Aux left empty;

Wing Aux right, wing main left.

Center 1, 3, and wing Aux right and left empty;

Wing main right, wing main left, Center 2.

All tanks but wing tips empty;

No go.


From these tests, we can get the following conclusions;

1- Center tanks group is always being emptied from the highest number available to the lowest. It start emptying from the moment engines are started.

2- Auxiliary wing tanks are connected to their same side main tank, the latter being triggered when the former is emptied. The emptying of center tanks has no triggering effect on main wing tanks.

3- In any case figure, the wing tip tanks are never emptied.

[Ivan]

Hello Hubbabubba,

Perhaps more of an explanation of your results is necessary. I am not sure I understand what you are stating.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hello Hubbabubba,

Perhaps more of an explanation of your results is necessary. I am not sure I understand what you are stating.

- Ivan.

OK Ivan,

The line in italics represent the tanks available (not empty), the line just under that line represent the tanks immediately being used to feed the engines. This test was made without fuel switches.

For example, when center 1 and 2 are empty, the center 3 and wing auxiliary right and left are being used.

Tests with fuel switches will be coming soon. We must know what CFS1 does on its own to see what the fuel switches are capable of.


(...) (from Conspicuous by their Absence thread)
so, I had a thought about mosquito fuel capacities,
what if the air file was changed to reflect
the quantities with the wing slipper tanks?
granted, the tanks would not be visible in the model,
but, the long range mission could be accomplished.
the whole package could be renamed,
Mosquito B Mk IV LR
LR being Long Range
kinda hokey, but what the heck

The test flight described above was to see if I could make it with a full load to Berlin and back while keeping tank capacity of the internal FB 6 "by the book". Not easy, but feasible and with a reasonable reserve. But the Mossie is flying like a truck (no disrespect intended) most of the time.

[Ivan]

If there is more than one tank "being used", does that mean that fuel is drawn from all the tanks being used equally, proportionally or sequentially?

I am guessing probably equally?!?

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

If there is more than one tank "being used", does that mean that fuel is drawn from all the tanks being used equally, proportionally or sequentially?

I am guessing probably equally?!?

- Ivan.

Fuel flow appears to be equal on all tanks being used. In my tweaked air file, all tanks are at 10 gallons and, when started at the same time, they keep the same "in sync" quantities. To be a bit clearer (only a bit...:kilroy:), in an "all tanks full" configuration, center 3, wing Aux left and wing Aux right will all show the same quantity left at a given time and will all be emptied at the same time.

[Ivan]

Next Questions:

Does the tank numbering have any effect? How are you numbering the tanks?
(I wonder what happens if the tanks are numbered the same.)

If the tanks are different capacities, do they get emptied at the same rate?
(The -1A Corsair has fairly small tip tanks but a very large fuselage tank.)

Eventually I was planning to experiment with this, but you beat me to it. My next flight model experiment was with roll rates. I have played with those before, but hit a snag with the FW 190A model.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Next Questions:

Does the tank numbering have any effect? How are you numbering the tanks?
(I wonder what happens if the tanks are numbered the same.)

I wondered about that myself and made some preliminary tests, for example; inverting central tanks numbers, making all tanks number 1, etc...

I could not observe any effect. Maybe they do something in very particular circumstances, for example; leaking when DP file says "tank leak", but I really don't know. So far, these numbers are "useless".



If the tanks are different capacities, do they get emptied at the same rate?
(The -1A Corsair has fairly small tip tanks but a very large fuselage tank.)The flow rate is the same (I think it is set in one parameter in the AIR file). A 10 gallons auxiliary left tank will still have 5 gallons when the 5 gallons auxiliary right tank gets empty. All tanks "in function" are participating equally to the feeding of the engines.

Before testing gauges, I will make a final flight with all tanks and let the a/c go BINGO. I may retry with different capacity to re-verify.

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

FWIW, Bingo Fuel depends on where you happen to be. It is the minimum amount of fuel required for a safe return flight. Depending on your mission, you may have pretty close to half your fuel load left. I am guessing that is not exactly what you meant.

BTW, My Family just got back from a week at the beach last night. Huricane Earl just threw us a bit of rain with some heavy waves and didn't do much else at Bethany Beach, Delaware.
There is a bit of a plumbing problem here at the house, so can't relax yet.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

For me, BINGO simply means going out of fuel.

I did a test with all tanks full (10 gal each) and, according to my observations, central 3 + auxiliary wing right + auxiliary wing left were emptied first, then central 2 + wing main right + wing main left, then central 1.

Next test, I will modify tanks' capacities so that they empty a different pace (so I think) and see how they "take the relay".

Although wing tip tanks appears useless, I will keep them, just in case.

[hubbabubba]

Unbalanced tanks fuel test.

Tanks were changed for the following capacities;

- Central 3 = 10 gal
- Central 2 = 4 gal
- Central 1 = 3 gal

- Wing auxiliary left = 7 gal
- Wing auxiliary right = 8 gal

- Wing main left = 6 gal
- Wing main right = 5 gal

- Wing tips (both) = 1 gal (each)

The same three tanks started emptying first; Central 3, wing auxiliary left and right. When wing auxiliary left was finished, central three still had 3 gallons and wing auxiliary right had one gallon.

Wing main left took the relay of auxiliary left and, when auxiliary right was emptied, wing main right did the same. Worth noting; main right and left were emptied exactly at the same time.

As expected, wing tips never emptied.

Central tanks simply emptied one after the other in the following order; 3 - 2 - 1.

Conclusions.

Central tanks act as an independent group, along the order mentioned above. Tanks "numbering" in the AIR file has no visible effect.

Wing auxiliary and main tanks act as an independent group on both sides. The auxiliary tank empty first and the main tank take the relay, no matter tanks "numbering".

Wing tips tanks are totally useless. I don't know if it is me screwing something in them or else. If anyone knows otherwise, please, post here.

Tanks empty all at the same rate, no matter the size of other tanks participating in the feeding process. The more tanks are emptying at the same time, the slower is the emptying rate. The lesser, the faster.

Now, I will test fuel switches gauges with 10 gallons tanks for all (even the tip ones, we never know).

[Ivan]

Thanks Hubbabubba,

This is very interesting. Which fuel switching gauge are you using for these tests? I found that without a gauge, the tanks I had installed were all emptying at the same time, but WITH a switching gauge, only the selected tank was emptying. I didn't use all the tanks you are using though.

The test I did wasn't intentional. I used a Me 109E panel for the Ki-61 Tony. The problem is that the 109 only has one tank. The Ki-61 has a fuselage tank and two wing tanks, so without the switching gauge, all tanks were used. When I put in a P-51D fuel switch, only the selected tank emptied.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Thanks Hubbabubba,

This is very interesting. Which fuel switching gauge are you using for these tests? I found that without a gauge, the tanks I had installed were all emptying at the same time, but WITH a switching gauge, only the selected tank was emptying. I didn't use all the tanks you are using though.

The test I did wasn't intentional. I used a Me 109E panel for the Ki-61 Tony. The problem is that the 109 only has one tank. The Ki-61 has a fuselage tank and two wing tanks, so without the switching gauge, all tanks were used. When I put in a P-51D fuel switch, only the selected tank emptied.

- Ivan.

These tests were made without fuel switch gauge. Gauge testing follows.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: TANKS.GAU
Internal name: tanks
Organization: Dome Fliteware
Version: 1.0.0
Copyright: none (Chuck Dome presumably)

Size at 1/1 ratio; 150 width, 100 height

18294

Visual: 15 bitmaps, bitmap #1 is the background, 7 bitmaps representing the moving knob-style button, 7 invisible bitmaps for for clickable zones, the background bitmaps has the following inscriptions according to clock positions; 8 O'clock = OFF, 9 O'clock = L.Au, 10 O'clock = L.Mn, 12 O'clock = CTR, 2 O'clock = R.Mn, 3 O'clock = R.Au, and 4 O'clock = ALL. In the upper-left corner, we can read FUEL and, in the upper-right corner, TANK. Inscriptions are all in white (R=247, G=247, B=247) and a one pixel border line of the same color runs around the rectangle. The background color is blue-gray (R=99 ,G=123 , B=156). The four corners have a one pixel dot of black (R=0, G=0, B=0).

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ALL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. Placing the mouse cursor over one of the inscriptions and left-clicking will "turn" the button to that selection. The FUEL TANK inscription has no effect. You don't have to click repeatedly to get to a selection.

Effect: On ALL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On CTR position, center 1 tank is being emptied. Once empty, the engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On L.Au, left auxiliary tank is being emptied. Once empty, the engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On R.Au, right auxiliary tank is being emptied. Once empty, the engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On L.Mn, left auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, left main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On R.Mn, right auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, right main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSIONS

The gauge works, but only to some extent. The center tanks order is starting with center 1 tank but, unfortunately, center 2 and 3 are not used. For that to happen, you must return to ALL configuration. The wing main and auxiliary positions always empty the auxiliary tank first, the only difference between main and auxiliary position being that, if left on auxiliary position, the main tank is not solicited.

The gauge shape may be modifiable, as the black corner dots suggests. The clickable areas could probably be modified with an hex-editor, but this is a job for experts only.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: TANKSB.GAU
Internal name: tanksb
Organization: Dome Fliteware
Version: 1.0.0
Copyright: none (Chuck Dome presumably)

Size at 1/1 ratio; 150 width, 100 height

18303

Visual: 13 bitmaps, bitmap #1 is the background, 6 bitmaps representing the moving knob-style button, 6 invisible bitmaps for clickable zones, the background bitmap has the following inscriptions according to clock positions; 8 O'clock = OFF, 9 O'clock = L.Au, 10 O'clock = L.Mn, 2 O'clock = R.Mn, 3 O'clock = R.Au, and 4 O'clock = ALL. In the 12 O'clock position, we can read FUEL TANK. Inscriptions are all in white (R=247, G=247, B=247) and a one pixel border line of the same color runs around the rectangle. The background color is blue-gray (R=99 ,G=123 , B=156). The four corners have a one pixel dot of black (R=0, G=0, B=0).

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ALL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. Placing the mouse cursor over one of the inscriptions and left-clicking will "turn" the button to that selection. The FUEL TANK inscription has no effect. You don't have to click repeatedly to get to a selection.

Effect: On ALL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On L.Au, left auxiliary tank is being emptied. Once empty, the engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On R.Au, right auxiliary tank is being emptied. Once empty, the engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On L.Mn, left auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, left main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On R.Mn, right auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, right main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSION

The gauge works, but only to some extent. The wing main and auxiliary positions always empty the auxiliary tank first, the only difference between main and auxiliary position being that, if left on auxiliary position, the main tank is not solicited. They're is no provision for central tanks but, if you switch to ALL, they will empty in the "no gauge" order.

The gauge shape may be modifiable, as the black corner dots suggests. The clickable areas could probably be modified with an hex-editor, but this is a job for experts only.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: TANKSC.GAU
Internal name: tanksc
Organization: Dome Fliteware
Version: 1.0.0
Copyright: none (Chuck Dome presumably)

Size at 1/1 ratio; 150 width, 100 height

18307

Visual: 9 bitmaps, bitmap #1 is the background, 4 bitmaps representing the moving knob-style button, 4 invisible bitmaps for for clickable zones, the background bitmap has the following inscriptions according to clock positions; 8 O'clock = OFF, 10 O'clock = LEFT, 2 O'clock = RIGHT, and 4 O'clock = BOTH. In the 12 O'clock position, we can read FUEL TANK. Inscriptions are all in white (R=247, G=247, B=247) and a one pixel border line of the same color runs around the rectangle. The background color is blue-gray (R=99 ,G=123 , B=156). The four corners have a one pixel dot of black (R=0, G=0, B=0).

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the BOTH position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. Placing the mouse cursor over one of the inscriptions and left-clicking will "turn" the button to that selection. The FUEL TANK inscription has no effect. You don't have to click repeatedly to get to a selection.

Effect: On BOTH position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On LEFT, left auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, left main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On RIGHT, right auxiliary tank, if with any fuel in it, is emptied. Once empty, right main tank is being emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSION

The gauge works, but only to some extent. The LEFT and RIGHT positions always empty the auxiliary tank first. They're is no provision for central tanks but, if you switch to BOTH, they will empty in the "no gauge" order.

The gauge shape may be modifiable, as the black corner dots suggests. The clickable areas could probably be modified with an hex-editor, but this is a job for experts only.

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

Seems to me I need to re-think the layout of tanks on the SBD-3 Dauntless yet again. The real aircraft has the equivalent of a Aux and Main tank in each wing. If a selector with only Main tanks will still empty the Aux tanks, then that will work just fine for my plane. I prefer to stick with stock gauges if possible.

It also sounds like this is a way to set up a standpipe reserve if you re-label the tanks so that the Aux is called "Main", and Main is called "Reserve".

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hi Hubbabubba,

Seems to me I need to re-think the layout of tanks on the SBD-3 Dauntless yet again. The real aircraft has the equivalent of a Aux and Main tank in each wing. If a selector with only Main tanks will still empty the Aux tanks, then that will work just fine for my plane. I prefer to stick with stock gauges if possible.

It also sounds like this is a way to set up a standpipe reserve if you re-label the tanks so that the Aux is called "Main", and Main is called "Reserve".

- Ivan.

Hello Ivan,

I haven't finished testing fuel switch gauges but, like you, I'm inclined to rename tanks and position them according to our own requirements rather than to stick to a very arbitrary labeling in AIR files. Thinking "out of the box" is how I see things; a "left tank" doesn't have to be on the left just because it was labeled that way. Functionality should have precedent over names.

So far, I'm a bit disappointed by the fact that central position only works with center 1 tank but, since FS98 style tanks only had one center tank available, I understand why. The wing tips tanks are beyond disappointment. "Disgust" would be more appropriate. What a waste!

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: WJR_CD_R4D.Tanksb.gau
Internal name: tanksb
Organization: Dome Fliteware
Version: 1.0.0
Copyright: none (Chuck Dome presumably)

Size at 1/1 ratio; 150 width, 100 height

18422

This is a mod of TANKSB.GAU. It is interesting in the sense that it confirms my suspicions; background bitmap can be modified in shape with true black #1 color on the palette (R=0, G=0, B=0).

Functuionalities are the same as the original.

[Ivan]

Hello Hubbabubba,

Have you figured out how to program a gauge yet? There are a few that I would like to create that I don't believe have equivalents today.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hello Hubbabubba,

Have you figured out how to program a gauge yet? There are a few that I would like to create that I don't believe have equivalents today.

- Ivan.
Hi Ivan,

Nope; I can do pretty much everything in an aircraft but the gauges. I can change textures, in some cases I can change fonts, in a very few gauges, I can hex-edit them and I can light them, thanks to smilo for that.

I would have to learn C programming and, quite frankly, I'm getting old to learn new tricks.

[Ivan]

I am a pretty experienced C programmer, but don't know the process of creating gauges. Hmmmm....

What I would like to do would be some specific fuel gauges, multi engine gauges and some digital trim gauges.

BTW, have you figured out what the rest of the fuel tank fields do? Warning level, residual fuel level, etc.?
- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

FS98 - FS98 Misc. Creating FS98 Gauges Using CBuilder 3.x
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Creating FS98 Gauges Using CBuilder 3.x. Description and step by step example by Jay Crawford. at FlightSim

This should be a good "primer", although I wouldn't know myself...:kilroy:

[Ivan]

I just printed the instructions. Next step is to acquire the compiler that is described. I do have a compiler installed on even my work machine and at home, but I don't know that Gnu C is compatible.

Thanks, I think.....
:isadizzy:

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

I finished reading the instructions. They don't really say much except how to use a specific compiler or IDE instead of the standard MSVC compiler. Not really all that much content beyond that. Since I don't have the specific compiler mentioned, I don't know that I am any further ahead. Also, this is C++. I program in plain old C though I will learn C++ at some point.

On a different note, I was checking out the stock Hurricane Mk.I this morning. It has a fuel selector for Left, Right, Center and a dummy marking for Reserve. From the Hurricane Mk.II manual, the fuel selector should be able to draw equally from the two main tanks in the wings or use the fuselage tank. This one can't.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hello Ivan:wavey:

C, C+ and C++, this is all Greek to me:icon_lol:!

I have downloaded and installed a free C compiler, which is also doing C++, and "do it yourself" tutorials on the subject but, to do that, I would have to take a long pause from CFS1. In the past, I learned Visual Basic all by myself, and forgot almost everything by now, so it should be feasible. Time will tell...:kilroy:

After having done all fuel switches I can find, I will do CFS1 stock switches. Other matters kept me occupied recently.

Unless tailored-made, I can't see the day when all fuel systems will be accurately depicted for each aircraft. So many of them with so many arrangements are possible that it would take a special library just to sort them out.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: gbyjfuel_sw_aux.gau
Commentary:MSVC++ version Cessna 337 Fuel Switch - (Main/Center)
Internal name: gbyjFuel_sw_Cntr
Organization: GaugesByJay
Version: 2, 0, 0, 1
Copyright: ©1998,1999 Jay Crawford All Rights Reserved

Size at 1/1 ratio; 114 width, 114 height

19624

Visual: 9 bitmaps, bitmap #1 and #2 are backgrounds, as it appears that the same gauge was used to create two fuel switches. 7 bitmaps represent the moving key-style button positions. Inscriptions are as follows; 8 O'clock = OFF, 10 O'clock = AUX LEFT, 11 O'clock = MAIN LEFT, 12 O'clock = ALL, 1 O'Clock = MAIN RIGHT, 2 O'Clock = AUX RIGHT, 3 to 4 O'clock = FUEL TANK SELECT. Inscriptions are all in white-grey from R=250, G=250, B=250 to R=66, G=66, B=66. The background color is mainly black of different RGB (R=9 ,G=8 , B=8 to R=1, G=16, B=0) with a greyish border of RGB going from reddish to brownish. The outer square appears to be pure black (R=0, G=0, B=0) with screw heads at the four corners. The pure black is transparent.

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ALL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. You must click repeatedly right or left to move the key on a selection. So, if you are on AUX LEFT and want to switch to AUX RIGHT, you will have to go through MAIN LEFT - ALL - MAIN RIGHT before getting to it. The FUEL TANK SELECT inscription has no effect.

Effect: On ALL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On AUX LEFT, left auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On AUX RIGHT, right auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On MAIN LEFT, left auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On MAIN RIGHT, right auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSIONS

The gauge works, but only to some extent. It works exactly the same way as TANKSB.GAU as emptying order is concerned, only the clicking method differs.

The gauge shape is modifiable, as the "screws" are surrounded by black pixels (#1 R=0, G=0, B=0) that are invisible on the panel.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: gbyjFuel_sw_Cntr.gau
Commentary:MSVC++ version Cessna 337 Fuel Switch - (Main/Center)
Internal name: gbyjFuel_sw_Cntr
Organization: GaugesByJay
Version: 2, 0, 0, 1
Copyright: ©1998,1999 Jay Crawford All Rights Reserved

Size at 1/1 ratio; 114 width, 114 height

19625

Visual: 9 bitmaps, bitmap #1 and #2 are backgrounds, as it appears that the same gauge was used to create two fuel switches. 7 bitmaps represent the moving key-style button positions. Inscriptions are as follows; 7 O'clock = OFF, 10 O'clock = LEFT, 12 O'clock = CENTER, 2 O'Clock = RIGHT, 5 O'Clock = ALL. FUEL TANK SELECT is written on top. Inscriptions are all in white-grey from R=250, G=250, B=250 to R=66, G=66, B=66. The background color is mainly black of different RGB (R=9 ,G=8 , B=8 to R=1, G=16, B=0) with a greyish border of RGB going from reddish to brownish. The outer square appears to be pure black (R=0, G=0, B=0) with screw heads at the four corners. The pure black is transparent.

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ALL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. You must click repeatedly right or left to move the key on a selection. So, if you are on LEFT and want to switch to RIGHT, you will have to go through CENTER - RIGHT before getting to it. The FUEL TANK SELECT inscription has no effect.

Effect: On ALL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On LEFT, left auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On RIGHT, right auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On CENTER, center #1 is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSIONS

The gauge works, but only to some extent. It works as if it was a mix of TANKS.GAU for #1 center emptying and TANKSC.GAU for the right and left tanks, as far as emptying order is concerned. Only the clicking method differs.

The gauge shape is modifiable, as the "screws" are surrounded by black pixels (#1 R=0, G=0, B=0) that are invisible on the panel.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: rww2-tank-sw.gau
Internal name: BCK.F3M_Fuel_Selector.gau
Organization: unknown, probably BCK
Version: unknown
Copyright: unknown

Size at 1/1 ratio; 140 width, 140 height

20089

Visual: 6 bitmaps, bitmap #1 is the background. Bitmaps #2 to #6 are representing a red pointer knob in different positions. Only ON (8 O'clock) and OFF (4 O'clock) positions are marked. At 6 O'clock position, it is written FUEL VALVE.

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ON position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. You must click repeatedly right or left to move the knob on a selection. So, if you are on ON and want to switch to OFF, you will have to go through three positions before getting to it. The FUEL VALVE inscription has no effect.

Effect: On ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On 10 O'clock position, left auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On 2 O'clock position, right auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On 12 O'clock position, center #1 is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSION

The gauge works, but only to some extent. It works exactly like gbyjFuel_sw_Cntr.gau, excepting that OFF and ON (ALL) positions are inverted.

The gauge shape is modifiable, as the "screws" are surrounded by black pixels (#1 R=0, G=0, B=0) that are invisible on the panel.

[Ivan]

Hello Hubbabubba,

I believe I ran into something strange recently in flight testing: I had noticed that the test panel I use would seem to ignore fractions of a gallon in fuel tank capacity. I thought it was just a rounding issue. I just noticed that the Selector / Dump gauge in your test panel does the same. It reads to 0.1 gallon, but doesn't start except at even values in gallons. When tank capacities are 75 gallons or 300 gallons, a fraction doesn't make much of a difference, but when the total tank capacity is only 5.8 gallons, and fuel consumption is low, it DOES make a difference.

Have you run into the same thing?
- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Bonjour Ivan,

Yes and no.

When I made precise conversion of the Mosquito tanks, I noted the rounding-off. But I did not investigated further.

Any idea on how I could test this?

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

So I am not imagining things and you have seen it too.

To test: Make every tank on the plane under a gallon and see if it can run. That's what I would do.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hi Hubbabubba,

So I am not imagining things and you have seen it too.

To test: Make every tank on the plane under a gallon and see if it can run. That's what I would do.

- Ivan.

Just tried it. I made all tanks, except tip tanks, to 0.9. Engines never started, telling me I was out of fuel! Jerry Beckwith's gauge only registered the presence of tip tanks. The fuel switch I'm testing now (more on that later) showed no fuel.

So this mean that all my precise calculations to convert imperial gallons into US gallons were done for nothing. This also means that capacity should be rounded to the closest full number of gallons if we don't want the AIR file to do it for us and round to the first integer.

A 1.9 gallons would equal one gallon in fact.

[Ivan]

Yup....

Sounds like a pretty cool flight model. The only tanks on the aircraft are the tip tanks and they are not useable.

Now don't WE all feel stupid. I did the same thing with the last few flight models. The conversions were carried out to about 8 decimal places precision and just rounded to the tenth in the AIR file. The 5.8 gallon "Reserve" tank in my Fokker E.III Eindecker just became a 6.0 gallon tank!

Looks like I need to revisit the A6M Zeros, P-40, and just about everything else back to the Hellcat though I don't suppose it makes all that much difference when the tanks are large.

So much for precision.... Sheesh!
- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Yup....

Sounds like a pretty cool flight model. The only tanks on the aircraft are the tip tanks and they are not useable.

Now don't WE all feel stupid. I did the same thing with the last few flight models. The conversions were carried out to about 8 decimal places precision and just rounded to the tenth in the AIR file. The 5.8 gallon "Reserve" tank in my Fokker E.III Eindecker just became a 6.0 gallon tank!

Looks like I need to revisit the A6M Zeros, P-40, and just about everything else back to the Hellcat though I don't suppose it makes all that much difference when the tanks are large.

So much for precision.... Sheesh!
- Ivan.

Actually, your 5.8 gallons were most probably rounded at 5 gallons, not 6. The AIR files are rounding to the integer, disregarding any number after the decimal point!

The gauge I'm testing right now is also showing the remaining fuel in percentage, so it should have shown 100% on all tanks. It did not; all were at 0%. The tip tanks were the only one to show on Jerry's gauge because I left them at 1 gallon (they're not showing on the gauge under test).

In short, if you were to convert a 450 Imp gal to US gal, it would give 540.4277, rounded at 540 gal by the AIR file. But a 457 Imp gal would give 548.8344 US gal, rounded to 548 gal by the AIR file. In the latter case, better enter 549 ourselves. No?:mix-smi:

[Ivan]

Regarding 5.8 gallons as the reserve tank on the Eindecker, what I had meant to say was that I just finished changing the AIR file so it now reads 6.0 gallons. That lost 0.8 gallon was what got me to looking to begin with. I also changed the places for the two tanks so that they act as main and reserve. The Eindecker panel isn't anywhere close to the actual thing. It already has too many instruments. I don't really want to add a fuel selector.

My P-40C loses 0.65, 0.25, and 0.35 gallons from each of three tanks. On THAT AIR file, I may just leave things as they are because those are all reasonable values for trapped or unuseable fuel. On a side note, I just finished taking the plane up for a test of terminal velocity. From 35,000 feet, I never went faster than about 550 mph TAS.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Hello Ivan:wavey:

Just a bit of confusion :redface:; isn't the first time and won't be the last!

Feeling stupid you say? Duh...:isadizzy:

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: TANK5S.GAU
Internal name: none
Organization: none
Version: unknown
Copyright: none, from Chuck Dome

Size at 1/1 ratio; 93 width, 140 height

20716

Visual: 12 bitmaps, bitmap #1 is the background. Bitmaps #2 to #11 are representing vertical green slider indicators and their masks. Bitmap #12 represent the "button".

Audio: none

Functioning: The button is on the ALL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. Position are, from left to right; OFF - A - L - C - R - A - ALL.

Effect: On ALL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts. In OFF position, engines starve and no fuel is spend.

On L position, left auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On R position, right auxiliary tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On A to the left position, left auxiliary is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off.

On A to the right position, right auxiliary is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off.

On C position, center #1 is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

CONCLUSION

I included this tank selector in my review for two reasons;

1- It is a very useful gauge in a test panel. Not only does it switches, but you have a general view of your fuel status in an instant. Too bad it does not cover all CFS1 tanks.

and;

2- Chuck Dome's commentary in an accompanying document entitled UNITANK.TXT are revealing;


You should be aware that FS98 aircraft obey certain rules regarding tank
usage. If ALL tanks are selected, the two aux tanks and the center tank will
all drain together until empty. At that point, FS98 automatically switches
to the left and right main tanks, which then drain together. If there are no
aux tanks, or if they are empty at startup, the left main, right main and
center tanks will all drain together. If the center tank is selected, it
will drain by itself until empty. There is no automatic switch when the
center tank is empty. If either the left or right main tank is selected, its
auxiliary tank will drain first. Like the center tank, the left and right
main tanks do not trigger an automatic switch when empty, if chosen
separately. Because of the way the aux tanks are connected to the main
tanks, I'm not sure if it makes any difference to have separate switch
settings for the aux tanks. I have, however, included them anyway.

This confirms my own deductions. Next time, I will start reviewing CFS1 stock fuel switches gauges.

[Ivan]

I hit a strange situation last night. I was test flying my P-47D-27 to check trim and after about 20 minutes or so noticed that the Aux fuel tank was down to about 75. THEN I noticed that the fuel selector was set to the MAIN tank.... I wonder what happened? The engine didn't cut when I switched tanks, so I believe it was working. This plane is using the stock P-47D panel.

I will be looking at it tonight when I get a chance and will be checking again with a different gauge.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: FW190a.gau
Internal name: none
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Version: 1.0.5020
Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

Size at 1/1 ratio; 20 width, 70 height at low resolution, 30 width, 105 height at high resolution.

20910

Visual: 4 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Numbered 1 - 2 - 3 top to bottom.

Audio: none

Functioning: The "lever" is on the 1 position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the "lever" goes to the next position in a loop following this sequence; 1 > 2 > 3 > 1. You can't click to go backward.

Effect: On initial 1 position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

On 2 position, center #2 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On 3 position, center #3 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On subsequent passage to 1 position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

If you want to "tap" on auxiliary-main wing tanks again, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

CONCLUSION

The Fw190A only has center tanks and this gauge will work perfectly on them. But you have to remember that, if you don't click on it, it will empty the tanks in the "no gauge" order and start with the center #3 or #2, whichever contains fuel, tank despite pointing initially to the number 1 position. You can also use wing tanks as long as you do not click on the gauge or, if you do, by restarting your engines as described above.

You can modify the appearance of the gauge but must remember that, being a "clustered" gauge, it will show on any other aircraft associated to that gauge. I strongly suggest that you rename it before starting modifications. All bitmaps appear to have transparency in them. Also remember to make the change for both resolution.

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

I believe you just described what I confirmed this evening for the stock P47D fuel selector. The standard aircraft checklist should list a check for the fuel selector because it won't work until the switch is used for the first time.

BTW, Why are you trying to describe so many fuel selection gauges?

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

BTW, Why are you trying to describe so many fuel selection gauges?

I'm just doing something that should have been done eons ago. The discoveries we're making are proof of that.

I'm only describing genuinely original switches. They all have their own original solution to fuel management, but they also obey to basic rules. Knowing both should help designer. I know it will help me.

How long ago has this game been released?:kilroy:

[Ivan]

The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges. I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described. BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?

The FW 190A gauge is what I used for the P-40s with a slight cheat for the markings.

The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges. I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described. BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?

The FW 190A gauge is what I used for the P-40s with a slight cheat for the markings.

The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!

- Ivan.

Hello Ivan,

Just to clear things before going on;

The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges.There is no FS98 stock fuel management gauge. All fuel switches gauges ever made for FS98, and often used in CFS1 third party panels, are custom made. This is why I wanted to study them in a "CFS1 style" AIR file. I was the first surprise to see them work, even when sections 302 and 1003 were removed. Apart from ignoring central tanks #2 and #3, which were new additions for CFS1, they worked quite well.

I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described.All the gauges I described, minus one, are original. They all act differently and give different results. But "trends" could be observed that are constant in each gauge. More on that in my final conclusion.

BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?Why? I'm only preoccupied with fuel switches within these cluster. I thought it was obvious. The bitmaps used are subsets of the .GAU file, the programming of the gauge is, likewise, a subset of instructions. If there is one thing these "monster" gauges are lacking, it is flexibility.

The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!I was working on that one when you posted. We may have different perspectives on what constitute "fun", we'll see...

[Ivan]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about there being no stock FS98 fuel gauges. I figure that some of the stock aircraft that came with FS98 must have fuel switches. Are you saying that none of them do? I will go check tonight with my FS98 installation.

BTW, do you fly with Auto Mixture?

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about there being no stock FS98 fuel gauges. I figure that some of the stock aircraft that came with FS98 must have fuel switches. Are you saying that none of them do?
Yep! That's exactly what I meant. I had to look into my FS98 CD to make sure before answering your post.


BTW, do you fly with Auto Mixture?
Again, yep!

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: Hurricane_1.gau
Internal name: none
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Version: 1.0.5020
Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

Size at 1/1 ratio; 62 width, 65 height at low resolution, 98 width, 102 height at high resolution.

21383

Visual: 4 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; PORT (9 O'clock); CENTER (12 O'clock); STBO (3 O'clock); RESERVE (6 O'clock, non-operable). Underneath, we can read FUEL TANK SELECTOR.

Audio: none

Functioning: The switch button is on the CENTER position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the button goes to the next position in a loop following this sequence; CENTER > STBO > PORT > CENTER. You can't click to go backward.

Effect: On initial CENTER position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

On STBO position, auxiliary right tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On PORT position, auxiliary left tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On subsequent passage to CENTER position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

If you want to "tap" on auxiliary-main wing tanks again, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

CONCLUSION

I was a bit surprised to see the CENTER position only tapping the center #1 tank. Again, you have to remember that, if you don't click on it, it will empty the tanks in the "no gauge" order and start with the center #3 or #2, whichever contains fuel, and wings tanks despite pointing initially to the CENTER position. If center tank #1 is empty, you can still tap on center #2 and #3 by restarting the engines.

I wonder what would happen if I placed the FW190A fuel switch and this one on the same panel...:kilroy:

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: P47d.gau
Internal name: none
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Version: 1.0.5020
Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

Size at 1/1 ratio; 61 width, 61 height at low resolution, 97 width, 97 height at high resolution.

21394The dial was uploaded as a transparent GIF to mimic real rendering. The background is actually a black square.

Visual: 3 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; MAIN ON (12 O'clock); AUX ON (3 O'clock).

Audio: none

Functioning: The switch button is on the MAIN ON position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the needle goes to the other position, switching from MAIN ON to AUX ON.

Effect: On initial MAIN ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

On AUX ON position, center #2 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On subsequent passage to MAIN ON position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

If you want to "tap" on auxiliary-main wing tanks and center #3 again, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

CONCLUSION

This switch acts like the FW190A switch, minus the center #3 tank, the "main" tank being #1 center and the "auxiliary" being #2 center.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: P51d.gau
Internal name: none
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Version: 1.0.5020
Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

Size at 1/1 ratio; 42 width, 38 height at low resolution, 68 width, 61 height at high resolution.

21440 Again, the gauge bitmap was treated as a GIF with transparency to show the "shield" shape.

Visual: 4 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; FUEL TANK SELECTOR (12 O'clock, non operable); 92 MAIN tank L (7 to 9 O'clock); FUS. tank 85 GAL (5 to 7 O'clock); 92 MAIN tank R (3 to 5 O'clock).

Audio: none

Functioning: The switch button is on the FUS. tank 85 GAL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the needle goes to the next position, cycling from FUS. tank 85 GAL to 92 MAIN tank R to 92 MAIN tank L to FUS. tank 85 GAL in a loop.

Effect: On initial FUS. tank 85 GAL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

On 92 MAIN tank R position, auxiliary right wing tank is emptied. Once empty, main right wing tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On 92 MAIN tank L position, auxiliary left wing tank is emptied. Once empty, main left wing tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On subsequent passage to FUS. tank 85 GAL position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

If you want to "tap" on center #2 and #3 tanks, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

CONCLUSION

This switch acts exactly like the Hurricane_1 switch. Again, FUS. tank 85 GAL (FUS. for "fuselage"?) only taps on center #1 tank, which means that no CFS1 stock gauge uses all tanks. I will try a "combo" with this gauge and FW190A gauge.

[hubbabubba]

Name of the gauge: Spitfire_MKI.gau
Internal name: none
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Version: 1.0.5020
Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

Size at 1/1 ratio; 32 width, 59 height at low resolution, 45 width, 88 height at high resolution.

23815

Visual: 5 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate is rectangular and has, on top, the inscription FUEL, two "levers" side by side are depicted with up ON and down OFF positions. The right lever is identified by the vertical inscription RESERVE and the left lever by the word MAIN

Audio: none

Functioning: The levers are on the ON positions and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on these positions upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the levers go to the next position, cycling from ON ON to OFF OFF to ON OFF to OFF ON to ON ON in a loop.

Effect: On initial ON ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

On OFF OFF position, no tanks are emptied and engines cut-off.

On ON OFF center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On OFF ON center #2 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

On subsequent passage to ON ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

This is the only CFS1-specific gauge that covers all tanks (minus tip tanks) in a loop. It is probably due to the fact that it is the only CFS1 fuel switch with an all off position.

CONCLUSION

This is the "best" CFS1 fuel switch available because, no matter the combination, you can empty all tanks in a normal cycle of clicks.

[hubbabubba]

FINAL OBSERVATIONS

As mentioned, I tried Hurricane and FW fuel switches together. The result was that I had almost entire control on central tanks and on lateral tanks groups, I could choose center #1-2-3 and right or left tanks, but always emptying auxiliary before main tanks. This method can have its drawbacks though. One of them is that, while clicking on one gauge, the other will visually switch too, giving false information. For example, if I switch the FW gauge to center #2, the Hurricane gauge will point to starboard tanks. This may be confusing, especially in the heat of the action. You must always remember that only the gauge you actually clicked on is showing the real tank(s) being emptied.

If you have observed carefully, you will note that no gauges, FS98 or CFS1 style, is capable of tapping both right and left tanks at the same time. This is quite unfortunate as many a/c would manage fuel that way, if only to keep proper balance. Only at start-up do both sides are being emptied simultaneously. I don't know if such a gauge is feasible, but why not? After all, it is doing it on start.

Curious to know what was done in FS2000 Pro, I installed mine just to have a look at the "pristine" gauge folder. The only fuel switches I found there are the CFS1 "cluster gauges"! There is not even one FS2000 specific cluster gauge! We can't say that M$ went to great efforts for that release. Only in CFS2 would they create new original fuel switches.

While we are waiting for new CFS1 fuel switches (yeah...:sleep:), modelers will have to "make do" with what's at hand. For example, a "center" gauge doesn't have to be on the center line and a left tank can be dead center. We should think out of the box and not necessarily follow the labeling of the AIR files.

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

Next question that I can see would be: How well do the available fuel gauges cover the possibilities that we see in various aircraft? As you pointed out, it would be cool to have a switch setting that would use both Left and Right Main tanks at the same time, but is there an aircraft that has this arrangement?

I can tell you that for the P-40 series of aircraft, the FW 190 gauge works well enough to properly control a similar arrangement of tanks. The markings are not useful, but I had a workaround for that as I will show in a screenshot later. It may not be elegant, but it isn't bad IMHO.

For the F4U-1D Corsair, there is only a single internal tank with drop tanks that we do not represent, so NO gauge is sufficient. BTW, To represent Drop Tanks, can we have left and right tanks with fuel dump switch to represent salvoing the tanks before combat?

For the F4U-1A Corsair which has no drop tanks but has a couple unarmoured outboard wing tanks, I just used the P-51D fuel switch. Seems to work though I would like to be able to choose NOT to fill those tanks for combat missions because they were only intended for ferry flights.

For a Me 109 with a drop tank, we could use the Fuselage Auxiliary tank as the drop tank and a fuel dump switch for the aux tank. This plane didn't have a fuel switch to select drop tanks because air pressure was used to push fuel into the main (and only) tank which the engine used as its only supply.

For the SBD Dauntless, the outboard wing tanks can be set as aux tanks and do not need a separate selection because they will empty as the left and right mains are selected.

For the Ki-61 Hien, A6M Reisen and J2M Raiden, the P-51D fuel selector works to select Left, Right, and Fuselage tanks.

For the Fokker Eindecker, no switch is necessary because although the pilot has to pump fuel from the "Main" tank to the one that the engine uses, we can just call the engine's tank as the Main tank and the real "Main" tank becomes the Auxiliary tank. Fuel use will be in the proper order.

I was reading that the Hawker Sea Fury had a peculiar arrangement of tanks similar to the Germans in which some tanks only acted to supply others. Need to go back and read that again.

What is the next step? Perhaps reviewing the fuel quantity gauges to figure out which to use?

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

Hello Hubbabubba, et al.

Years and years after the last post, I am about to revive another old thread, but I believe it makes sense to do so rather than start another thread on the same subject when Hubbabubba has presented a great amount of information on the subject.

First I would like to answer my question about whether or not any real aeroplane actually draws from both Wing Tanks at the same time.
Note that since the prior post in this thread, I have completed and released a Macchi C.202 Folgore.
It actually does have two small Wing Tanks that are not individually selected.
Another aeroplane that has been the subject of a little research during this time is the Nakajima Ki 43 Hayabusa.
It, in fact has two pairs of Wing Tanks and ONLY draws from them in matched pairs.

There is a minor factor that seems to have been hidden by the testing protocol used for the Fuel Switching Gauges:
This is one I should have noticed years ago, but only noticed when I found this thread in a Web Search a couple months ago and re-read it from the start.
In the Check Lists for my P-40 series, the instructions call for switching to the Fuselage Tank before starting the engine.
Now this would make absolutely no sense if the fuel switch setting were over-ridden by the engine start process, but it is not.
The selection remains even after engine start.
This in itself is no proof because even without a selector, the Fuselage Tank would be drawn from first until it is done, but one can confirm with stock aircraft that the selector setting is NOT over-ridden at engine start.

To confirm this, I used the stock P-51D which has Left Main, Right Main, and Center 1 Fuel tanks.
If the selector is not used, the default is to draw from all three tanks as stated.
If the 'E' key is used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector is set to the Center position and all three tanks are used.
However....
If the Magneto, and Starter switches are used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector setting does not change and fuel is drawn ONLY from whichever tank is selected.

The obvious question would be: Why am I resurrecting this old thread and why was I searching on the Internet for Fuel Switching?
The reason is simple: I have been working on Gauges for Multi Engine projects and have finally had some minor successes.
With the basic gauges out of the way, I am now looking toward programming some of the other gauges (such as Fuel Selectors) that are not to be found among the available stock gauges.

For both the P-38 Lightning and the B-25 Mitchell, the default Fuel use can be used to mimic the recommended fuel selection order even without gauges.
Note that with Fuel Selector Gauges for a Twin Engine Aeroplane, not only should there be a tank selector for each engine (two or three per side) but a Cross Feed Switch should also be present to use the remaining fuel for a non functioning engine.

So even if the Lightning and Mitchell do not need these gauges, perhaps I can address issues to be found in some of my other projects.

- Ivan.

[papingo]

Hubba's idea of filling up all tanks with ten galls. of
fuel and observing the results.....good thinking!
anyone else doing interesting stuff like this

>>papingo

[Ivan]

Hello Papingo,

Glad to see you here.

I think there are a couple interesting subjects being discussed at the moment, just not in this particular thread.
I bumped it for a reason. There will be some work done in this area soon, but first I just need to figure out how to access all the fuel tanks that are available in CFS. The information I have available does not make it very clear how to do it.
The default non-selected order that fuel tanks are expended is nice to know, but wouldn't it be even better if we could build a fuel selector to affect that order and not just know how it behaves if we CAN'T affect it?

That was where I was headed before the recent diversion to a much older subject which I am still working on for now.

Take Care.
- Ivan.

[Ivan]

There is a minor factor that seems to have been hidden by the testing protocol used for the Fuel Switching Gauges:
This is one I should have noticed years ago, but only noticed when I found this thread in a Web Search a couple months ago and re-read it from the start.
In the Check Lists for my P-40 series, the instructions call for switching to the Fuselage Tank before starting the engine.
Now this would make absolutely no sense if the fuel switch setting were over-ridden by the engine start process, but it is not.
The selection remains even after engine start.
This in itself is no proof because even without a selector, the Fuselage Tank would be drawn from first until it is done, but one can confirm with stock aircraft that the selector setting is NOT over-ridden at engine start.

To confirm this, I used the stock P-51D which has Left Main, Right Main, and Center 1 Fuel tanks.
If the selector is not used, the default is to draw from all three tanks as stated.
If the 'E' key is used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector is set to the Center position and all three tanks are used.
However....
If the Magneto, and Starter switches are used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector setting does not change and fuel is drawn ONLY from whichever tank is selected.



Yet another update:
The 'E' key does selects all available tank groups, resets mixture, and turns on both magnetos before starting the engine.....
....on a CFS AIR File.

With the current Kawasaki Ki 61 project, I have also been looking around and experimenting with other related aeroplanes on my game machine.
One of them is a very nice Kawasaki Ki-100 model that happens to have a FS98 AIR File.
On this aeroplane, the 'E' key does NOT select all available fuel tank groups from what I can tell so apparently this process does not work the same with a FS98 Flight Model used in Combat Flight Simulator....

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

About a year and a half after the last post, and with the release of my rework of Eric Johnson's P-39D Airacobra, I have finally finished my first custom Fuel Selector.

The P-39 Airacobra only has a single fuel tank in each Wing Root.
There is no CFS stock Fuel Selector which only has Left and Right Fuel Tanks.
While it is possible to arrange the Fuel Tanks in the AIR file so that the fuel selector from the stock P47D can be used, the appearance with "Main" and "Aux" markings does not look appropriate with the arrangement on the Airacobra.

Fortunately, programming a new Left-Right Fuel Selector was not terribly difficult.
Creating new bitmaps for the gauge was the most difficult part.

On this Gauge, there are three status positions:
Left - Left Tank selected
Right - Right Tank selected
Center - Something other than Left or Right Tank is selected.

Note that ONLY the Left or Right Tank can be manually selected using this gauge.
The Center position is just an indicator that the current selection is something the gauge does not understand.

From this gauge it was pretty easy to create a Left-Right-Center Selector.
One might wonder why such a gauge would be useful considering that the options are the same as on the stock P51D or Hurricane_1 Fuel Selectors.
The difference is that there are two mouse areas and it is not necessary to cycle through all three positions though it may be necessary to pass through the center position to get from one side to the other as one might expect with an actual Fuel Selector.

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

So where do we go from here?

My goal in regards to Fuel Selectors is to create specific gauges that are useful for my own projects and to learn enough to be able to write the code needed for any other gauges that are useful.

These are the steps I intend to take in working with new gauges (but with an occasional diversion to keep things interesting):

1. Figure out the coding needed to access every Fuel Tank that may be specified in a CFS AIR file.
Tanks are the following
Record - Description
525 Left Tank
526 Right Tank
527 Left Aux Tank
528 Right Aux Tank
529 Left Tip Tank
530 Right Tip Tank
531 Center Tank 1
532 Center Tank 2
533 Center Tank 3

Note that all of these tanks may be accessed by some combination of the stock fuel selectors except for the Left and Right Tip Tanks (Records 529, 530) as Hubbabubba has already pointed out earlier. Unfortunately, these tanks are also the most reasonable representation of the fuel system in two of my projects.

2. Build a gauge set that allows for separate control of the fuel tanks used by Port and Starboard engines.
This is the typical arrangement of control for a twin engine aircraft.

3. Attempt to create a gauge that would be able to draw "simultaneously" from more than one fuel tank.
In theory this should be possible with a few coding tricks.

Further description of development will be in the Gauge Creation thread

- Ivan.