From Russia With(out) Love

[kilo delta]

I've always been fascinated by the huge quantities of ex-Soviet Cold War equipment that has been abandoned in Russia....

Abandoned Tank Base (http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2008/05/09/an-abandoned-tank-base/#more-1910)

Abandoned Antonov transport (http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2008/10/24/the-crash-site/#more-2115)

Abandoned Aircraft (http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2006/12/20/abandoned-russian-planes/)

[brad kaste]

....It always amazes me how the Russkies just seem let their broken military equipment to be discarded wherever it needs to be abandoned.....

[Bjoern]

The russian military isn't the most orderly when it comes to handling scrap parts. Their abandoned bases here looked...well, messy...

[Toastmaker]

This was tremendously expensive stuff for the Soviet economy to produce - just to keep up with the West in the cold war arms races. There is much truth to the idea that we literally forced the Soviets to spend themselves into oblivion. The trashed Backfire bombers is a testament to the waste of very expensive planes.

Good find !

:running:

[Bone]

This was tremendously expensive stuff for the Soviet economy to produce - just to keep up with the West in the cold war arms races. There is much truth to the idea that we literally forced the Soviets to spend themselves into oblivion. The trashed Backfire bombers is a testament to the waste of very expensive planes.

Good find !

:running:

Yeah, we cleaned their clocks with that strategy, so to speak.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

This was tremendously expensive stuff for the Soviet economy to produce - just to keep up with the West in the cold war arms races.

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

[jhefner]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

Whatever...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Those Backfire bombers may have been destroyed as part of the SALT II treaty; we sent a lot of B-52s to the guillotine for the same reason.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
-James

[Toastmaker]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

Naus, it may be a bit of a myth - or more accurately an educated guess, but it is one of the multiple components that drained the Soviet Union. I did not mean this to be a singular reason for that event.

[Bjoern]

Anyways, what about a SOH expedition to rescue that An-8?

Just imagine....our own transport aircraft. We could hop from airport to airport and have a huge party right in the freight compartment! :d

[Bone]

Anyways, what about a SOH expedition to rescue that An-8?

Just imagine....our own transport aircraft. We could hop from airport to airport and have a huge party right in the freight compartment! :d

I dunno, Bjoern. I don't think that thing would even make good beer cans.

[kilo delta]

Anyways, what about a SOH expedition to rescue that An-8?

Just imagine....our own transport aircraft. We could hop from airport to airport and have a huge party right in the freight compartment! :d

I'm surprised that the MiG-23 is so intact...if that resided round these parts it'd be a burnt out shell long ago. Might stick a trailer on the car and go "rescue" the cockpit section for a future sim pit. :d

[jmig]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.


We WON! :d

[Bone]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

I'd bet there's so many historical studies on this topic that it would take someone eons to read them all, if they could even find them all...and there's probably at least a handfull that are still classified, and therefore unattainable to be read. Besides, I do believe that I've read that the Soviet Union did for all practical purposes bankrupt themselves trying to keep up with the arms race. The ruble was virtually useless, and there was a huge blackmarket in U.S. Dollars for many years in the Soviet Union before it fell.

[TeaSea]

Whatever...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Those Backfire bombers may have been destroyed as part of the SALT II treaty; we sent a lot of B-52s to the guillotine for the same reason.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
-James


Yes, and all that stuff has to be left out in the open so that it can be seen with satellite imagery and counted. It's part of the agreement. I suspect a lot of what you see here fall under those terms.

[Ken Stallings]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

Sorry, Naus, I have to disagree with you on that statement. The cost of the Cold War contributed mightily to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I specialized in studying their country and so I think I have a pretty signficant background of research to support that conclusion.

Cheers,

Ken

[KOM.Nausicaa]

Sorry, Naus, I have to disagree with you on that statement. The cost of the Cold War contributed mightily to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I specialized in studying their country and so I think I have a pretty signficant background of research to support that conclusion.

Cheers,

Ken

Me too. And what bothers me, is the simplification of the thesis, not the thesis itself - the simplification is twofold, so to say and ends up being somewhat revisionist if it's used with an ideological background -- especially in America. The cost of the cold war, as you put it, is no doubt a factor in the fall of the Soviet Union. However, this has to be put into context of many other factors: the Soviet Union economy in general, the rise of oil import cost, the Afghanistan war, the increasing dissatisfaction in the Baltic states, Poland, etc, Tchernobyl, the rise of a younger political elite with a different view (Gorbachev), and much more. And moreover, the "cold war" as you put it, spans many decades, not the first term of Reagans presidency. I can accept that view, but not the one which tries to bring that down to the 80's. This is a very different view from the one which somehow gives solely Reagan the credit. The rise of the military budget as reaction to Reagans cold war politics and his rise in military spending happened no doubt -- however the numbers are disputed and there is no consensus amongst historians that this was the final straw for the Soviet Union. This is very questionable, to say at least. It bothers me also very much on a personal level that the German "Ostpolitik" which started under Brandt, is never mentioned in the American history writing. Without the "ostpolitik" which aimed to weaken and undermine the grip of the Soviet Union on it's satellite states, we can ask ourselves if the dislocation of those states would have happened the way we have seen it. That political doctrine started as early as the early 70's and the USA was virtually absent in it. I am also bothered that it is not mentioned that Gorbachev's perestroika would have very likely fallen or/and himself being removed in some violent putsch if Germany would not have massively pumped money by the hundreds of billions into the reforms -- a financial aid in which the USA was also virtually absent, at least to my knowledge. The fall of the Soviet Unions is a complex matter, to simplify it down to "military spending" is something I cannot accept. It's just more complicated than that.

To end the post, from Wikipedia:


East-West tensions increased during the first term of U.S. President Ronald Reagan (1981–1985), reaching levels not seen since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis as Reagan increased US military spending to 7% of the GDP.[citation needed] To match the USA's military buildup, the Soviet Union increased its own military spending to 27% of its GDP and froze production of civilian goods at 1980 levels, causing a sharp economic decline in the already failing Soviet economy. However, it is not clear where the number 27% of the GDP came from. This thesis is not confirmed by the extensive study on the causes of the collapse of the Soviet Union by two prominent economists from the World Bank- William Easterly and Stanley Fisher from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “… the study concludes that the increased Soviet defense spending provoked by Mr. Reagan's policies was not the straw that broke the back of the Evil Empire. The Afghan war and the Soviet response to Mr. Reagan's Star Wars program caused only a relatively small rise in defense costs.

[Willy]

OK guys. Let's be sure and leave the politics elsewhere.

[Panther_99FS]

So to get back on topic....
What an eerily historic set of captures - almost museum-like! Thanks! :wavey:

[demorier]

I'm still puzzled about that An-8 got into the bush. The trees look to big to have grow up all around it ???

[kilo delta]

I'm still puzzled about that An-8 got into the bush. The trees look to big to have grow up all around it ???

That has me puzzled too....there's a small clearing in front of where it now stands but not enough room to attempt a landing, or even to turn around! Maybe the An-8 is more VTOL than STOL! :d

[b52bob]

It was my understanding that the USSR never junked old aircraft but kept them in storage in case a war started. This may also be "the reserve" that is no longer needed and ready to be scrapped.

In any case, it is sad to see so many beautiful airplanes being scrapped. Whenever I go to AMARC I feel the same way about ours.

[grumpos]

As was noted above, these aircraft were being scrapped to meet treaty obligations.

I've spent many hours looking at the cold war soviet air bases on google earth, and most of them don't have much in the way of hardware lying around unless the base is in the middle of nowhere. The Russian navy, on the other hand is a completely different story.

[wombat666]

As was noted above, these aircraft were being scrapped to meet treaty obligations.

I've spent many hours looking at the cold war soviet air bases on google earth, and most of them don't have much in the way of hardware lying around unless the base is in the middle of nowhere. The Russian navy, on the other hand is a completely different story.

Some of the Naval ports like Severomorsk (Murmanskaya oblast) make you take a step away!
Actually more like high speed sprint.
In particular the number of Frigates, Destroyers and Submarines (some Nuclear powered) sitting on their keels and rusting away is an interesting display of Nuclear powered ecological destruction waiting to happen.
:toilet:

[Tom Clayton]

I'm still puzzled about that An-8 got into the bush. The trees look to big to have grow up all around it ???
I think the first pic of the trees from behind the tail shows a bit of unententional perspective trickery. The second one from a closer vantage point shows only a few rather thin trees - barely beyond saplings. Depending on what kind of trees they are, they could easily be less than ten years old. A local demolition and salvage outfit bought a piece of land near my home just a few years ago with the intention of starting a construction material landfill (scrap concrete and such). They started clearing the land before getting the land rezoned, and ended up losing their bid to get the rezoning. It's been less than ten years now, and nature has reclaimed the land to the extent that you can't tell it was cleared unless you know about the tall pines that used to be there. Other trees have grown in their place and are nearly as tall as the pines were. So what all of this long-winded post is trying to say is "Don't underestimate Mother Nature!" :jump:

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I'll do a general statement now. I am frankly sick and tired to have the forum police squad break through the house door as soon as we are having some discussions which go a little deeper. Nobody here went personal on anyone. Every post is extremely polite and well mannered. Yet we are treated as if we are kids in a kindergarden. But Ken and I, and others, are grown ups. This is not the Disney channel, this is a flight sim forum, and a military flight sim forum as well. Military aviation and politics and history will always share common grounds and therefor discussions. As long as it is polite and friendly it is absurd and childish to ban this part of the discussion, and this was the case here.
My two cents -- do what you like with it.

[Cratermaker]

Sigh. ANYHOO....

Did anyone else click on the other links off of those pages for other interesting ruins in Russia? Old coastal defenses, castles... lots of cool stuff.

[MudMarine]

But no historical study of the fall of the Soviet Union supports that thesis. A myth, I am afraid.

Really. Where is your historical evidence to support your thesis? Just curious, I'm a student of Russian history and the cold war, I lived it also. I'm always looking for good books on the subject, not wiki-whatever.

[Henry]

I'll do a general statement now. I am frankly sick and tired to have the forum police squad break through the house door as soon as we are having some discussions which go a little deeper. Nobody here went personal on anyone. Every post is extremely polite and well mannered. Yet we are treated as if we are kids in a kindergarden. But Ken and I, and others, are grown ups. This is not the Disney channel, this is a flight sim forum, and a military flight sim forum as well. Military aviation and politics and history will always share common grounds and therefor discussions. As long as it is polite and friendly it is absurd and childish to ban this part of the discussion, and this was the case here.
My two cents -- do what you like with it.
ok thanks i will
chief forum Police
i would never cross staff
H

[txnetcop]

I'll do a general statement now. I am frankly sick and tired to have the forum police squad break through the house door as soon as we are having some discussions which go a little deeper. Nobody here went personal on anyone. Every post is extremely polite and well mannered. Yet we are treated as if we are kids in a kindergarden. But Ken and I, and others, are grown ups. This is not the Disney channel, this is a flight sim forum, and a military flight sim forum as well. Military aviation and politics and history will always share common grounds and therefor discussions. As long as it is polite and friendly it is absurd and childish to ban this part of the discussion, and this was the case here.
My two cents -- do what you like with it.

There are other forums if you are not happy with this one.

[CWOJackson]

Here are some tanks many people probably didn't know were in the Russian inventory. They were probably skipped in arms talks.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2009/10/02/the-refurbished-tanks/

[safn1949]

The Russians recently scrapped some thousands of armored vehicles they had in "storage",translation rotting quietly away.So their tank force is a shadow of what it used to be,later today if I get time I will post a link with the figures.:d

[Bjoern]

Eglish Russia is a great site, by the way. I now know why the Red Army won WW2...

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2009/06/21/russian-terminator/

:d






Here are some tanks many people probably didn't know were in the Russian inventory. They were probably skipped in arms talks.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2009/10/02/the-refurbished-tanks/


http://media.englishrussia.com/refurbished_tanks/28.jpg

Hel-lo! :eek:

[Toastmaker]

The Red Army won WWII. . . ? I guess it did if you only look to the East. . .

:running:

[kilo delta]

Eglish Russia is a great site, by the way. I now know why the Red Army won WW2...

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2009/06/21/russian-terminator/

:d
:

Wow! If it cost the US military 6 million dollars for a leg,arm and an eye for Lee Majors in the 70's.........think how much it must have cost the Russians for a complete cyborg during the 40's!!!!!

:d

[Bjoern]

The Red Army won WWII. . . ? I guess it did if you only look to the East. . .

:running:

They at least bound enough manpower of the Heer for the western allies to cakewalk through France and Italy.

[Toastmaker]

Really, "cakewalk through France and Italy" ?? I guess you were absent lots during history class or you're intentionally being provocative. Either way, that's a bit disrespectful don't you think?

[Bjoern]

Either way, that's a bit disrespectful don't you think?

Cut the Red Army some slack, they suffered worst from all participants.

[Toastmaker]

Oh, sure. . . why not. Their performance with civilians in Berlin and other German cities was certainly commendable.

[HundertzehnGustav]

booooooooo lame thread.
we wanna see more rotting away migs...
not dudes and dudettes slapping each other, throwing around buckets of acid comments.
*bored*:wavey:

[Allen]

http://www.jontanis.com/gallery/d/4048-1/like-where-this-thread-is-going_jpg.jpg

Seriously. Can we all get a long?

[kilo delta]

Abandoned underground Russian Sub base (http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2008/02/29/russian-underground-submarine-base/)... Can't help but think that this looks like something the SPECTRE organisation would have in a 007 movie

More abandoned Russian military aircraft (http://retardzone.com/2007/07/25/abandoned-russian-aircraft/) and here too (http://community.livejournal.com/abandonedplaces/1476594.html)

[Bjoern]

Oh, sure. . . why not. Their performance with civilians in Berlin and other German cities was certainly commendable.

That's an entirely different issue.




Seriously. Can we all get a long?

I for myself can.




Abandoned underground Russian Sub base (http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2008/02/29/russian-underground-submarine-base/)... Can't help but think that this looks like something the SPECTRE organisation would have in a 007 movie

Nah. It's just another secret HARM installation.

In fact, the pics of discarded lipstick-lookalike grenades and the director's office with all those "Never ever give mom my office phone number again" notes were intentionally withheld. ;)

[HundertzehnGustav]

Seriously. Can we all get a long?


nice one! i hope he had sand filters installed...

[Toastmaker]

Get a grip on yourselves - just because two people disagree on a subject matter doesn't mean the site is going to implode.

:running:

[safn1949]

Hey toast,lets grab the MI-24 and do some woodchuck hunting.Everyone ignore the prattling of the youngsters.:jump:

Ok here is one link,I am really short on time but I will find the other soon. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20100228.aspx

[Toastmaker]

Hey toast,lets grab the MI-24 and do some woodchuck hunting.Everyone ignore the prattling of the youngsters.:jump:

Ok here is one link,I am really short on time but I will find the other soon. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20100228.aspx


I GET THE GUN SEAT first time out. . .! Ok, I'll flip you for it. . .

:running:

[dswo]

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