SHERIFF JOE is at it AGAIN!

[hey_moe]

You all remember Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona , who painted the jail cells pink and made the inmates wear pink prison garb. Well . . .
Oh, there's MUCH more to know about Sheriff Joe!

Maricopa County was spending approximately $18 million a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to take the department over, and the County Supervisors approved.

The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily. He now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and behavior. They give great classes for anyone who would like to adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs off the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had them place in dog shows.

The best part? His budget for the entire department is now under $3 million. Teresa and I adopted a Weimaraner from a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered, and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.

The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day. Most of his budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners out of the fees collected for adopted animals.

I have long wondered when the rest of the country would take a look at the way he runs his jail system, and copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work and harvesting by hand.

He has a pretty good-sized hog farm, which provides meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6-$8 for the Holidays, and plant it later.

Yup, he was re-elected last year with 83% of the vote. Now he's in trouble with the ACLU again. He painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline phone number painted on it, where you can call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement wasn't doing enough in his eyes, so he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought four new buses just for hauling folks back to the border. He's kind of a 'Git-R Dun' kind of Sheriff.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who created the 'Tent City Jail', has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails, took away their weights, and cut off all but 'G' movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then he started Chain Gangs For Women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a Federal Court Order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again, only let In The Disney Channel and The Weather Channel.

When asked why the weather channel, he replied, 'So they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.'

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This isn't the Ritz-Carlton . . . If you don't like it, don't come back.'

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press Reports: about 2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before.

Many were also swathed in set, pink towels as sweat collected on their chests and dripped down to their PINK SOCKS.

'It feels like we are in a furnace,' said James Zanzot, an inmate who has lived in the tents for 1 year, saying 'it's inhumane.'

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: 'It's 120 Degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes,so shut your mouths!'

Way To Go, Sheriff!

Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes--not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things some citizens cannot afford to have for themselves.

[Dain Arns]

I see that e-mail is still making the rounds.
Seems to keep getting longer and longer every year.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/arpaio.asp

Except in this case it's Sheriff Joe, so it is True. :icon_lol:

[Terry]

Yes Moe, there are a few good public servents left. But he is getting old so this is probably his last term. I hope he hand picks his successor, the public will back him.

[Toastmaker]

Quite a sharp guy. Worthy of his multiple re-elections. When he's done, there are others of his kind waiting. We (the people) just have to get off our collective asses and find them.

:running:

[CybrSlydr]

I see that e-mail is still making the rounds.
Seems to keep getting longer and longer every year.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/arpaio.asp

Except in this case it's Sheriff Joe, so it is True. :icon_lol:

Parts of it are true - no confirmation on the opening bit about the animal shelter.

[Dain Arns]

Parts of it are true - no confirmation on the opening bit about the animal shelter.


Oh how correct. I'm silly.

Maybe not all staffed by prisoners, there are volunteers as well, but Maricopa County's Adult Inmate Program has the MASH program:


MASH

The MCSO Animal Safe Hospice offers inmates the opportunity to heal themselves by giving compassionate care and shelter to abused animals from the community. The animal/human bond improves morale, communication skills, goal setting and responsibility. Inmates perform grooming, exercise, training, animal nursing techniques, feeding and facility maintenance in the MASH shelter.http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Inmate_Programs&page=Adult

http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Mash

[Navy Chief]

Joe for U.S. President in 2012!!!!!!!!

[Dain Arns]

Thought I'd include this...



The MASH location in the First Avenue Jail is air-conditioned, and the cells have been reconditioned to comfortably house animals.
Some critics have said that it's inhumane to put dogs and cats in air-conditioned quarters when inmates don't have air conditioning.
A good answer came from one of the inmates assigned to care for the dogs.
When asked if she was resentful about not having air conditioning, she gestured to some of the dogs and said, "They didn't do anything wrong. I did."

[stansdds]

I think Sheriff Arpaio is top notch in his field. There have been other sheriffs who have instituted programs to get the prisoners out of their cells and into public service work. I remember years ago Virginia Beach, VA had "chain gangs" cleaning up the sides of the roads. I don't know if they still do that, but it was a good idea and I think a lot of the public liked it as well.

[CybrSlydr]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's anything that Sheriff can't do.

[Terry]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's anything that Sheriff can't do.

There is, he wanted to run for Gov. this year but decided it wasen't going to happen so he never entered the race.

[stansdds]

Yeah, I think it would be difficult for him to win anything beyond the local level as there are plenty of people who think he is some sort of sadist for actually trying to reform criminals. He is most effective as a sheriff.

[Terry]

Yeah, I think it would be difficult for him to win anything beyond the local level as there are plenty of people who think he is some sort of sadist for actually trying to reform criminals. He is most effective as a sheriff.

One can only daydream about all the logical reforms that might have happened had he become governor. Perhaps even a balanced budget!

[Lionheart]

no comment.

[txnetcop]

Sheriff Joe for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ted

[cheezyflier]

Joe for U.S. President in 2012!!!!!!!!

seems like somebody who would be good to vote for. but the rest of the politicians would never allow it.



no comment.

i know you have a low opinion of him, and live alot closer to his area than the rest of us. but i am curious if you think he's worse than who we already have

[Navy Chief]

i know you have a low opinion of him, and live alot closer to his area than the rest of us. but i am curious if you think he's worse than who we already have


Good question. Joe's policies/rules may be considered radical. But the man apparently gets results. And in this day and age, that is not the norm. I personally believe more states should adopt such programs.

NC

[djscoo]

He gets results in terms of lowering the cost of housing prisoners, but I wouldn't call him the best in his field. His focus is on punishment rather than reformation. His policies have done nothing to lower crime or recidivism rates. If he could back his policies up with lower crime rates, and learn when to keep his mouth shut, then I might have a higher opinion of the guy.

[cheezyflier]

He gets results in terms of lowering the cost of housing prisoners, but I wouldn't call him the best in his field. His focus is on punishment rather than reformation. His policies have done nothing to lower crime or recidivism rates. If he could back his policies up with lower crime rates, and learn when to keep his mouth shut, then I might have a higher opinion of the guy.

i wonder (i don't actually know) how much of the crime rate and recidivism is from the fact that his state has the highest population of illegals in the country? i would think that's got to be an important factor. if my instinct is right, then both the crime rate and the recidivism would be a poor yardstick to measure success.

also, i don't really believe in rehabilitation anyway. i think it's a myth. every single criminal i know (including myself) who has abandoned crime, did so because they did not want to return to jail. i cannot point to a single individual that i know personally who's rehabilitation is due to some social program.

[djscoo]

i wonder (i don't actually know) how much of the crime rate and recidivism is from the fact that his state has the highest population of illegals in the country? i would think that's got to be an important factor. if my instinct is right, then both the crime rate and the recidivism would be a poor yardstick to measure success.

also, i don't really believe in rehabilitation anyway. i think it's a myth. every single criminal i know (including myself) who has abandoned crime, did so because they did not want to return to jail. i cannot point to a single individual that i know personally who's rehabilitation is due to some social program.

It is quite obvious that you actually don't know. Arizona actually has the 6th highest population of illegal immigrants in the country. I assure you that the presence of illegal immigrants has much less of an effect on the economy, crime rates, and general well being of citizens than most news sources/prejudiced individuals/politicians would have you believe.
If crime rates are a poor yardstick, then what would be a more proper gauge of his success?

[txnetcop]

It is quite obvious that you actually don't know. Arizona actually has the 6th highest population of illegal immigrants in the country. I assure you that the presence of illegal immigrants has much less of an effect on the economy, crime rates, and general well being of citizens than most news sources/prejudiced individuals/politicians would have you believe.
If crime rates are a poor yardstick, then what would be a more proper gauge of his success?

I was in law enforcement when I came out of the military for a number of years before returning to college. Isn't it strange that now just as then the same youthful punks you put into a "PROGRAM" become career criminals later? The stats are there look it up! Almost without exception every juvenile offender I tried to help with a rehab program actually ended up going to prison as an adult later. I believe in punishment for the unregenerate who consistently offend...Sheriff Joe gets results!

Sorry I was interrupted, most of the kids I caught in crimes were kids of illegals down in Brownsville, Texas. A lot of their parents were already in jail for gang related crime. Now we have gang wars spilling over the border in Brownsville, Laredo and El Paso. Texas will be the next state to get serious about punishment...it's coming!

[Ken Stallings]

In my view, Sheriff Joe Arpaio is not controversial. He's the epitome of common sense and reason!

The problem is that his common sense approach is uncommon in today's environment.

He isn't cruel. He's frugal and understanding of the point that prison is not supposed to be pleasant.

When a select vocal minority of people complained about inmates in tents in the hot summer weather, Arpaio famously retorted that the US military sheltered troops in similar conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan and these troops did nothing wrong against the law at all to be treated that way!

I have yet to meet anyone who had a cogent thought with which to disagree with the searing logic of that reply!

He runs an efficient jail system that almost pays for itself.

When a law requires him to do something, he finds the most frugal and spartan means to meet the requirements of the law.

In terms of immigation, he merely wants to enforce the federal laws within his county precisely as they are written! Beyond being legal, it is the only ethical thing he can do. He took an solemn oath to support, uphold, and enforce the laws. It is the "sanctuary city" advocates who advocate violating federal law -- not Joe Arpaio.

I had heard about him stepping forward to run the animal shelters. Funny, you won't find many who bestow upon him kudos for finding a more affordable way to not only protect these animals, provide them options for adoption, but also provide meaningful social training and outlets for the select inmates.

I intend never to violate a law and get into one of Sheriff Joe's prisons, but if I did I would love the opportunity to get out and take care of dogs in the shelter. It would be welcome mental therapy. And I think Joe Arpaio knew this benefit, which likely factored into his decision to do it.

Joe Arpaio wants to see his inmates regain their self-respect and respect for the law when they leave his prison. His edict to never return is frankly the only logical attitude for a sherrif to have!

Ken

[txnetcop]

It was frustrating as an officer of the law to see the same illegals you busted for crimes that instead of being punished were simply deported and then see them return to the same streets they committed crimes on before! You feel like looking the other way after a while, but you can't!

[Toastmaker]

It is quite obvious that you actually don't know. Arizona actually has the 6th highest population of illegal immigrants in the country. I assure you that the presence of illegal immigrants has much less of an effect on the economy, crime rates, and general well being of citizens than most news sources/prejudiced individuals/politicians would have you believe.
If crime rates are a poor yardstick, then what would be a more proper gauge of his success?


Sorry, but this is nothing more than someone's guess, as illegal aliens don't exactly keep any statistic collectors informed of their location.

With regard to the economy - just take a look at Arizona area hospital's uncollectable, outstanding billings !

I think repeatedly being re-elected with an excess of 80% of the votes is a pretty fair yardstick of his - or anyone's - success !

[Ken Stallings]

It was frustrating as an officer of the law to see the same illegals you busted for crimes that instead of being punished were simply deported and then see them return to the same streets they committed crimes on before! You feel like looking the other way after a while, but you can't!

Bad enough and demoralizing enough when that is the sole problem. Now add in the many vociferous people who openly call people racists and bigots when they simply advocate application of existing laws.

If people don't like the laws, then summon the moral courage and powers of persuasion to lobby a democratic nation to change the laws through the elected legislature.

But, don't call people who want to enforce the laws as they are written anything of a sullying nature. They are simply fulfilling the precise obligations specified under their oaths of office.

Ken

[CybrSlydr]

Two great posts, Ken!

[txnetcop]

This is why we must get tougher...no more deportation for crimes but tough prisons instead:

This is still unfolding
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10317-San-Diego-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2010m7d24-Los-Zetas-drug-cartel-takes-control-2-US-ranches-in-Texas

[Henry]

Bad enough and demoralizing enough when that is the sole problem. Now add in the many vociferous people who openly call people racists and bigots when they simply advocate application of existing laws.

If people don't like the laws, then summon the moral courage and powers of persuasion to lobby a democratic nation to change the laws through the elected legislature.

But, don't call people who want to enforce the laws as they are written anything of a sullying nature. They are simply fulfilling the precise obligations specified under their oaths of office.

Ken
hear hear!
H

[andersel]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's anything that Sheriff can't do.

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!

[TARPSBird]

As they say in the Bud Light commercials, here we go...

[wombat666]

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!

Results count.
:173go1:

[txnetcop]

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!


Apparently you haven't read either The United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Those prisoners gave most of those up the day they committed their crimes. If punishment is what it takes to keep these low-life scum off the streets then punishment is what is called for! Be a cop for a week in the DANGER ZONE and see if you still have your lofty pie in the sky ideas!
Ted

[jmig]

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!

Andersel, I have read all the above, more than once. Can you be more specific as to where you think the sheriff is violating or abusing the Constitution or Bill of Rights? The Declaration of Independence, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with the sheriff's actions.

You have made some rather strong declarative statements. While you are just as entitled to your opinion as txnetcop is to his, I would be interested in how you came to your opinions.

[stansdds]

As would I. All of his prisoners have been afforded due process, found guilty beyond reasonable doubt and are serving their sentence. Their punishment is harsh, but it is neither cruel nor unusual.

[Terry]

The sheriff has many enemies, namely those who do not want certain laws enforced which they find inconvenient to their agendas. Joe enforces whatever is on the books! A large percentage of those public officials that swore to uphold the constitution upon taking office have since ignored, undermined, and demeaned it. That's where our wrath ought to me aimed. Yes Joe sometimes brags and boasts about his accomplishments, who hasen't at one time or another. It's human nature.

[Roadburner440]

I must say that Sheriff Arpaio has made a lot of progress as far as how prisons should be run, and the use of people being housed on the tax payers dime. As far as the rate of re-offenders in his area go that is really beyond his control. I think there are enough cush jails out there with all kinds of schools, programs, and other junk to prove that either way you treat them it doesn't work. It is really down to the individual whether they are going to stop commiting these crimes or not. You can give them all the free college, cable tv, and whatever else they want (or in Sheriff Arpaio's case lack there of). Ultimately people make that individual choice that they would rather commit crime, and the benefits of that outweigh the effects of being put back in prison. To me I don't think it really matters what a person is offered while they are incarcerated, because only a small % are going to change. All it took for me was one time and I am determined to never go back again. Don't see why anyone would purposely keep doing stuff knowing that they will go back. Especially if it was as bad as he has made it in AZ. Ah well though. All we can do is keep watching. At least he is trying to keep the burden on the taxpayers down instead of looking at it as a never ending money pit for him to bilk cash from for his system.

[Toastmaker]

With regard to his jail policies - please remember he runs the Maricopa County Jail, not a state prison. The difference between the two and their missions is HUGE !

A county jail is generally a temporary facility for those awaiting trial, awaiting transfer to state custody (prison) or sentenced to very short terms, usually for misdemeanor offenses.

It's prison science that gets involved with the concept of rehabilitation and re-integration into society after long-term incarceration, not county/city jails.

His county jail mission is very different, therefore his tactics and policies will be too.

:running:

[Dain Arns]

With regard to his jail policies - please remember he runs the Maricopa County Jail, not a state prison. The difference between the two and their missions is HUGE !

A county jail is generally a temporary facility for those awaiting trial, awaiting transfer to state custody (prison) or sentenced to very short terms, usually for misdemeanor offenses.

It's prison science that gets involved with the concept of rehabilitation and re-integration into society after long-term incarceration, not county/city jails.

His county jail mission is very different, therefore his tactics and policies will be too.

:running:

That's generally true of most County Detention Facilities, Toast...

However....

Maricopa County actually goes above and beyond what most county jails do as well, and does work on rehabilitation.
There are many inmate programs offered, from Anger Management, learning English, to getting GED's and job skills, Substance Abuse, even religious services.

http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Inmate_Programs&page=Adult

[n4gix]

With regard to his jail policies - please remember he runs the Maricopa County Jail, not a state prison. The difference between the two and their missions is HUGE !

A county jail is generally a temporary facility for those awaiting trial, awaiting transfer to state custody (prison) or sentenced to very short terms, usually for misdemeanor offenses.

The real key to my concern about the situation is highlighted in red in the quote above.

It is grossly unfair to treat those awaiting trial as though they had already been convicted.

[CybrSlydr]

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!

You mind being specific as to what he's done that violates any of those 3 documents (one not even being a legal document, first guess is free as to which one that is).

I agree with txnet - put your money where your piehole is.

[CybrSlydr]

The real key to my concern about the situation is highlighted in red in the quote above.

It is grossly unfair to treat those awaiting trial as though they had already been convicted.

Remind me again what burden of proof must be met for someone to be arrested and sent to jail to await trial?

It's not like people can just accuse you and off you go - I'm fine with the idea that pre-trial folks are treated this way.

[djscoo]

Remind me again what burden of proof must be met for someone to be arrested and sent to jail to await trial?

It's not like people can just accuse you and off you go - I'm fine with the idea that pre-trial folks are treated this way.

You could be arrested based solely on an officer's belief that you committed a serious crime. The burden of proof therefore, in theory lies on the accused (pre-trial, that is). If charges are filed against you, theoretically one could sit in jail awaiting a trial forever. Of course Habeas Corpus would be your friend at that point, but nonetheless many innocent people sit in jail for extended periods of time just to have their cases thrown out.

[Panther_99FS]

You could be arrested based solely on an officer's belief that you committed a serious crime.

This statement by you proves without a doubt that you haven't actually read the law...

[djscoo]

This statement by you proves without a doubt that you haven't actually read the law...

Probable cause is based purely on an officer's own discretion. If it helps, then I'll quote "the law"...Probable cause is: "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".

To make an arrest, there is no need for tangible evidence, only a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime.

[Toastmaker]

Djscoo, although I think I understand your concerns about pre-trial detainees, look up the legal precept of "probable cause" as it applies to criminal procedures and police activity. You may get a better view of when the police can make a presumptive arrest - and when they cannot.

:running:


SORRY- I posted this just as you posted yours. . .

[safn1949]

In Virginia and I would assume most states,when you are arrested you get a bond hearing and bail is set.If you can't make bail then you are locked up,you can post your bail at anytime from there on and get out.

Now listen closely here,the state has a set period of time to try you or they have to dismiss the charge.So your inane assumption that they can keep you there for as long as they like is nonsense.And if found guilty you get credit for the time served waiting for trial.

That's personal experience dude,not speculation.I served 8 months in jail and prison in one stretch and a number of other shorter vacations.These people as a general rule are scum,the worst of humanity.I have been there and seen it first hand.

So you know I have been in jail in VA,WV,SC much to my despair,I deserved to be there and my choice was pull my head out of my rear end or keep going there,I chose the former some years ago.Most do not.

[paiken]

Around here it is a well documented fact that Sheriff Joe is a publicity hound, prompting such things as chain gangs, pink underwear/handcuffs and "immigration sweeps". Although he initially saved Maricopa county millions of dollars by creating "tent city", his department has now cost the taxpayers of the county many millions of dollars more than he has saved. There have been several cases of "unexplained" deaths while in the care of the Sheriff's dept ( e.g. overly agressive deputies choking handcuffed inmates while seated in chairs). Although I agree that most of the rank and file members of the department are hard working dedicated peace officers, the upper echelons of the department are a PR nightmare for the county.

[Ken Stallings]

Yeah, except maybe give a damn about other human beings and the U.S. Constitution. He seems to me to be nothing but a self-involved, self-absorbed megalomaniac that has kept the voters of Phoenix fooled for years. I guess that that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

PLEASE! Read and remember the Declaration of Independece, The United States Constitution and ALL the articles of the Bill of Rights!

Living in Alaska, and I therefore must presume by your post that you think over 80% of the citizens living in Maricopa County, Arizona would vote for a person of such character for many years and elections in a row.

Of course, if the people who share the same county with him can be fooled, and you living in Alaska can see the reality, then I also presume you must be a mighty fine judge of human character from a thousand miles away.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

You could be arrested based solely on an officer's belief that you committed a serious crime. The burden of proof therefore, in theory lies on the accused (pre-trial, that is). If charges are filed against you, theoretically one could sit in jail awaiting a trial forever. Of course Habeas Corpus would be your friend at that point, but nonetheless many innocent people sit in jail for extended periods of time just to have their cases thrown out.

I believe they still have bail and bail-bondsmen in Maricopa County, Arizona. I do not believe they have been outlawed.

So, even if arrested, normally bail is set within a few days at a pre-trial hearing.

In terms of the supposed "cruel and unusual" treatment. Precisely what would that be?

Wearing pink clothes?

Living in a tent in summer in Phoenix?

Well, like I wrote already, our troops get housed that way sometimes and I haven't heard many claim that is cruel and unusual.

Ken

[hubbabubba]

Forum: The NewsHawks

Forum for Community news and announcements.

I thought this was an a-politic, a-religious forum. This is turning into a right-wing law-n-order-get-tough-with-scumbag vs. left-wing anti-organized-slavery-racial profiling debate.

Yesterday, I wanted to post before it gets ugly.

Now, I'm posting because it does.

[hey_moe]

If our jails were more like those third world jails...our jails wouldn't be at the full capacity they are today. Our jails are more like a hotel with full medical,free cable and internet, three squares a day. As a matter of fact free everything. Everything you eat, all utility bill,ect..ect..ect you have to pay for. The prisoner get all that plus some for free. So next time you are writing a check for food, or pay high utilities bill...you are also paying for all there luxuries too while you are busting your a$$ at work. I could careless for any of them. They gave up everything when they broke our laws that we have to abide by. To get put in jail in this day and time you really have to have done a serious crime.

[NoNewMessages]

... To get put in jail in this day and time you really have to have done a serious crime.

Precisely! FREE LINDSAY LOHAN!!! :ernae:

[Ken Stallings]

Precisely! FREE LINDSAY LOHAN!!! :ernae:

Really?

She made a lot of mistakes with respect to DUI and subsequent violations of probation under a previous court ruling to wind up in jail.

Do you really think she deserves martyr status?

Her behavior could have just as easily gotten an innocent person injured or killed. I just hope this brief jail time finally sobers her up. That judge who put her in jail might well have saved her life.

Cheers,

Ken

[hey_moe]

If you really wanna see what it cost tax payers a day look at what it cost and house and take care of a prisoner, Goggle the cost. It makes me sick. 25,000.00 to 45,000.00 is more than some make in a year and that is just for one prisoner. Look what it also cost to get them a lawyer, court cost, appeals..ect..ect. Like I said in my earlier statement. Make our jails like third world jails...I bet cha the crime will slow down.

[txnetcop]

Precisely! FREE LINDSAY LOHAN!!! :ernae:

Give me break...how many people DIE DAILY because of people like Lindsay Lohan who never met a alcoholic drink she didn't like while she was driving. She should of been put under the jail! That goes for anyone else who drinks and drives.

[wombat666]

I thought this was an a-politic, a-religious forum. This is turning into a right-wing law-n-order-get-tough-with-scumbag vs. left-wing anti-organized-slavery-racial profiling debate.
Yesterday, I wanted to post before it gets ugly.
Now, I'm posting because it does.

Consider it ugly and about to be closed.
:cool:

[brad kaste]

If you really wanna see what it cost tax payers a day yo house and take care of a prisoner, Goggle the cost. It makes me sick. 25,000.00 to 45,000.00 is more than some make in a year and that is just for one prisoner. Look what it also cost to get them a lawyer, court cost, appeals..ect..ect. Like I said in my earlier statement. Make our jails like third world jails...I bet cha the crime will slow down.

Mike,....I couldn't agree with you more. Remove the amenities, the weight lifting equipment, the TV's, etc. and run the prisons like they do in Mexico or Bolivia. I'm sure the word would get that various US prisons aren't places you would want to wind up in. It just might make that potential law breaker think a 2nd time before he commits a crime of some sort.

[cheezyflier]

in before the lock....:icon_lol:

in my mind it makes more sense to steer someone away from crime in the first place. deterrents aren't really any more effective than rehabilitation. in my mind, the best approach would be to combine several different strategies.
education would be part of that, along with a minimum 3 years military or civil service for every citizen when they turn 18. at that point i would expect that most people would have enough education and life experience to support themselves without turning to crime, and at the same time more people would feel a part of their society.

[Toastmaker]

in before the lock....:icon_lol:

in my mind it makes more sense to steer someone away from crime in the first place. deterrents aren't really any more effective than rehabilitation. in my mind, the best approach would be to combine several different strategies.
education would be part of that, along with a minimum 3 years military or civil service for every citizen when they turn 18. at that point i would expect that most people would have enough education and life experience to support themselves without turning to crime, and at the same time more people would feel a part of their society.


Cheeze has a good point - when young people feel a sense of attachment to their society, it is much more difficult to justify becomming a predator within that same society.

[Navy Chief]

I've always thought they needed to reinstate the draft. Just my opinion.

NC

[sky pilot]

I know he would be better than what we got !
sky pilot

[sky pilot]

Apparently you haven't read either The United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Those prisoners gave most of those up the day they committed their crimes. If punishment is what it takes to keep these low-life scum off the streets then punishment is what is called for! Be a cop for a week in the DANGER ZONE and see if you still have your lofty pie in the sky ideas!
Ted
I moved to Wash. to save my but from going to jail for shoting one of those good gang members when they used to shot at our houses just for FUN!
the only thing IS WHEN I SHOT AT something I only did it once and what I shoot at is no more so it was best for me and the gang member to have me leav the state but I am not moveing again,
sky pilot

[sky pilot]

no just send over where our boys are and bring our boys home !
sky pilot:jump:

[jmig]

The two biggest contributors to criminal activity are poverty and drugs. When you are better off in prison, as some people are, prison becomes a step up. Add to that the prestige factor in many Black communities toward ex-cons and you have a large segment of society who don't see prison as a deterrent to crime.

Then there are "Illegal drugs". People will often do anything to get drugs and, a kid from the ghetto can make much more money selling drugs than working at a honest job. Going "to the state house" for a while is no big deal to him. Especially, with the over-crowding and lenient paroles.

While, I agree prison shouldn't be an air conditioned country club I don't think a hard time will be any more deterrent than today's sentences are. In fact there is evidence that treating a prisoner in a less than human way only makes him a harder man once he returns to the outside.

While I may sound like a sappy liberal, I am not. Emotionally, I feel like we should throw them under the jail and then throw away the key. The reality is that I won't do much, if any, good. Until the society from which most of these men come from changes into a, "I am going to pull my own weight" and not, "the man screwed me so I will screw him back" society, we will see little progress in lowering our prison population.

[HouseHobbit]

The two biggest contributors to criminal activity are poverty and drugs. When you are better off in prison, as some people are, prison becomes a step up. Add to that the prestige factor in many Black communities toward ex-cons and you have a large segment of society who don't see prison as a deterrent to crime.

Then there are "Illegal drugs". People will often do anything to get drugs and, a kid from the ghetto can make much more money selling drugs than working at a honest job. Going "to the state house" for a while is no big deal to him. Especially, with the over-crowding and lenient paroles.

While, I agree prison shouldn't be an air conditioned country club I don't think a hard time will be any more deterrent than today's sentences are. In fact there is evidence that treating a prisoner in a less than human way only makes him a harder man once he returns to the outside.

While I may sound like a sappy liberal, I am not. Emotionally, I feel like we should throw them under the jail and then throw away the key. The reality is that I won't do much, if any, good. Until the society from which most of these men come from changes into a, "I am going to pull my own weight" and not, "the man screwed me so I will screw him back" society, we will see little progress in lowering our prison population.

BRAVO this is a good start..BRAVO..

Unlike most here, I have been inside of the prisons in Ohio, as a Minister..
Worked for a bit with the Fellowship Prison Ministry..
As Much as most don't like to admit it..It is our society that does need a bit of help..
No matter How hard you treat something, a dog or a man... All you usually get in return, is either a meaner Dog or man..

And a for lack of forgiveness you end up with..
Or a poor soul who has No reason to change, for no matter what He or it May do. They will only be seen as their worst.. Never given the chance to be anything else..

As A Minister, I find it Very Sinful to brand anyone for life.. ST. Paul, Played a Big role
in the murder of early followers of Christ, yet even he changed.. Just one of many examples of the truth people can and do change from scripture....

Is anyone here the same person you were say 10 years ago, or 20.. NO you aren't, But you will not allow others the same right.. SHAME ON YOU..

The idea that someone is unchangeable, comes from a very unforgiving, Uncaring society..
Perhaps if we all admitted we in one way or another, are also part of the problem,
perhaps our Society may yet have the chance to heal..

And the self righteous help no one, not even themself's..
Being mean only begets mean..

To those with ears may you yet hear..
i'll keep all of this in my prayers as always.. And everyone here also..

Remember as many here pray, Forgive My tresspasses As I forgive those who, tresspasses against me..
It is conditional..

[flyer01]

Good post HH.

flyer01

[Gdavis101]

I love reading about what this guy has done and I can't understand why the rest of the country can't fallow suit. :salute::salute:

[MudMarine]

I worked at USP Lewisburg in PA for a while, too long. I can tell you all you need to know about dirtbag criminals. They're almost to a man, lazy, worthless members of society who see you/us "civilians" as targets. The people they took advantage of the most are the bleeding heart liberals that used to come in and try save their souls. I've seen them committ unspeakable crimes, ask me if there is evil in the world and I'll say yes, no question, I've seen it first hand at USP Lewisburg. JMO

Go Sheriff Joe give them what they've got coming......NOTHING!

[Ken Stallings]

Good points, MudMarine!

Reminds me of a simple, yet eloquent, concept.

When you go to prison, you are paying a debt to society.

Last I checked, a debt isn't supposed to be about society giving you something, but you giving something to society.

To me, raising your own vegetables, and performing work of social value, as part of your prison sentence seems to square quite tightly with that concept.

Cheers,

Ken

[sky pilot]

I think it is a great plan myself ,
sky pilot:salute:

[safn1949]

I have to tell you,prison is the most stupefyingly boring existence.A job would have been wonderful to have.I know that sounds silly to some but sitting for months at a time warehoused in a cell is no kinda fun.Of course it's also not meant to be.

I understand where some are coming from,saying poverty and what not drives crime.But I have been homeless and hitchhiked around the country in my younger days and I always managed to find enough work to get by.

So again,from personal experience those who say they can't find a job and they have to turn to crime are full of crap.It's a choice like everything else,anyone can make something out of themselves in this country if they are willing to start at the bottom and work hard.

In 2006 I made less then $6000,in 2009 I made $45,000.How? I worked my butt off,that's how with only a high school education and a record.(a pretty bad one also,I'm embarrassed to say) so anyone can.:d

[sky pilot]

right on my frend isounds like you have had the kind of life I have had and I am NOT IN ANYBODY"S JAIL,
sky pilot:salute:

[Sandydog]

...(Paragraph removed by jmig because it was considered a personal attack.)

I cannot imagine anything more humane and caring than to try to prevent recidivism. There is nothing more kind and caring than to try to prevent a former prisoner from becoming a current one. There is little in life more noble than to allow prisoners to care for animals in need, a calling higher than many so-called noble causes, such as saving undocumented gay whales from nuclear powerplants. And there is certainly nothing uncaring in enforcing laws already on the books and proven Constitutional that are designed to protect the decent, law-abiding legal citizen from criminal predation.

I defy my alleged 'fellow Alaskan' to state with specificity ANY violation of the US Constitution committed by Sheriff Arpaio or his agents (with his knowledge, consent, or approval). Without specificity, the statement is merely emitting gaseous, suspended-particulate partially-consumed fuel from one's rectal sphincter. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Hi, Ken!

[Sandydog]

I give up. Speculating on someone's voting history and political inclinations and whether or not they are a 'native' of a state in which they claim residency with humourous intent is no more a 'personal attack' than I'm your grandmother.

Enjoy your political correctness. I'm done here.

[n4gix]

Remind me again what burden of proof must be met for someone to be arrested and sent to jail to await trial?

It's not like people can just accuse you and off you go - I'm fine with the idea that pre-trial folks are treated this way.

"Innocent until proven guilty..." What a sick joke!

I could only wish that were true! Having been the victim* of a false allegation several years ago made by someone I both knew well and trusted, I speak from personal experience. The expense of bail (non-refundable 10% (if you even have that amount available!), attorney fees, embarrasment, et cetera aren't even the beginning...

...it's the unintended consequences that take the greatest toll, such as losing one's job, having your mortgage foreclosed because monthly payments have fallen in arrears, losing many of one's possessions due to multiple robberies while your home remains vacant, are some of the most egregious things that can occur.

In today's society, it would be extremely easy to have anyone arrested by simply paying some poor kid to lodge a complaint...

* In this instance the charge was that I had "stolen" a rent check and deposited it to my personal account, nevermind the fact that the Board of Directors had given me written permission to do so in lieu of paying my salary one month, because our non-profit's funding was late, and the checking account was low at the time.

Granted, six months later when the case finally went to trial the judge dismissed the case when he finally saw the document himself, and made profound apologies that the system had failed so miserably, but that didn't get my job reinstated, nor my mortgage mess straightened out, nor my stolen property replaced...

...never mind the intense pain and humiliation I endured at the hands of the "media." For three days the local papers reported in SCREAMING HEADLINES!!! "Local Priest Arrested for Stolen Check" on page A1, but six months later...

...printed a tiny, one sentence paragraph about the charge being dismissed buried on page G18...

[CybrSlydr]

"Innocent until proven guilty..." What a sick joke!

I could only wish that were true! Having been the victim* of a false allegation several years ago made by someone I both knew well and trusted, I speak from personal experience. The expense of bail (non-refundable 10% (if you even have that amount available!), attorney fees, embarrasment, et cetera aren't even the beginning...

...it's the unintended consequences that take the greatest toll, such as losing one's job, having your mortgage foreclosed because monthly payments have fallen in arrears, losing many of one's possessions due to multiple robberies while your home remains vacant, are some of the most egregious things that can occur.

In today's society, it would be extremely easy to have anyone arrested by simply paying some poor kid to lodge a complaint...

* In this instance the charge was that I had "stolen" a rent check and deposited it to my personal account, nevermind the fact that the Board of Directors had given me written permission to do so in lieu of paying my salary one month, because our non-profit's funding was late, and the checking account was low at the time.

Granted, six months later when the case finally went to trial the judge dismissed the case when he finally saw the document himself, and made profound apologies that the system had failed so miserably, but that didn't get my job reinstated, nor my mortgage mess straightened out, nor my stolen property replaced...

...never mind the intense pain and humiliation I endured at the hands of the "media." For three days the local papers reported in SCREAMING HEADLINES!!! "Local Priest Arrested for Stolen Check" on page A1, but six months later...

...printed a tiny, one sentence paragraph about the charge being dismissed buried on page G18...

Indeed, the system isn't perfect. It's never been claimed to be perfect and of course, to someone who's been crapped on by that imperfect system, there's nothing to say to fix anything.

Much more often than not, the system works. And it's the best system we have. As such, I'm comfortable with it.

[n4gix]

Do you have any idea how many convicted murderers have been exonerated decades after their convictions when DNA evidence proved them completely innocent?

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Most county jails do have a separate section for those who're kept for "Pre-trial Confinement" where conditions are much less harsh than for those who're ajudicated guilty. My issue with Maricopa County is that they don't. They treat everyone as though they had already been convicted.

This form of "pre-trial punishment" is unwarranted and completly unjustifiable, IMHO.

[sky pilot]

a lot less than the ones that did do it!
sky pilot:bump:

[jmig]

I believe it is accurate to say that until each of us is monitored 24/7, mistakes will happen in our justice system. Innocent people will go to jail and guilty people will walk free. The OJ Simpson murder trail showed clearly how two groups of people could take the same evidence and come to different conclusions.

sky pilot, you are correct in saying that most of the people in jail deserve to be there. However, if you are one of the few who really is innocent of your convicted crime, it is Injustice rather than justice.

Until we can prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of a crime, we will always have innocent people going to jail. Our system isn't perfect. However I believe it is one of the most fair systems of justice around. It needs to be made fairer.

While I feel badly for an innocent man convicted, I understand that mistakes will be made. I also believe that prison should not be easy or comfortable. The innocent will also suffer with the guilty. to remove the innocent's suffering you would also have to remove the guilty person's suffering. That I am against. The needs of society take precedence over the needs of a few innocent people. It is not fair, I know. But life has many occurrences of unfairness. Just ask any parent who has lost a child.

The above wasn't meant to make any imperative statements. It was an early morning stream of conscience rambling. We have wandered far from the OP's original post. We will not solve anything here. But, we can still voice our opinions and share our stories. That is good.

[sky pilot]

true and I have lost one of my kids and she did not have to die but I did not have the money to BUY her a heart and lungs but it she was in the Gov. it would have been done for free and you and I would have paid for it !
I still think Joe has the right way to go for now and it is the same for all,
sky pilot

[Lionheart]

I thought they were going to tar-and-feather old joe today. Tons of people downtown in front of the sheriffs building. Tons.... Street was closed off.

[sky pilot]

were they all from south of the border liike here when they march down the street waveing there mexican flags?
:wiggle:

[stansdds]

I heard that many of the protesters in Phoenix were actually bused in from California.

[Cazzie]

I heard that many of the protesters in Phoenix were actually bused in from California.

Yep and done with taxpayer dollars too I betcha.

If the protesters are from Arizona, they should be allowed peaceful protest, any from out of state have no voice in the matter IMO and should be sent home or arrested.

Caz

[djscoo]

I heard that many of the protesters were Al Qaeda operatives from Mars, flown in by the CIA.

[redriver6]

I heard that many of the protesters were Al Qaeda operatives from Mars, flown in by the CIA.

if you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread don't post.

this thread is about to be closed because of your smartaleck remark.

[djscoo]

if you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread don't post.

this thread is about to be closed because of your smartaleck remark.

I don't think my post was any less constructive than this one:



were they all from south of the border liike here when they march down the street waveing there mexican flags?
:wiggle:

[redriver6]

I don't think my post was any less constructive than this one:

i do.