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hubbabubba
July 18th, 2010, 22:11
Hi guys!:wavey:

This is a very preliminary work on a soft top jeep;
13072

It was done more than a month ago and I hope that, by publicly showing where I am, it will give me the proverbial kick in the a$$ I need to restart the "flow of creativity".:icon_lol:

My efforts were stopped by a stupid accident that could have killed me, but (unfortunately some will say...:kilroy:) didn't. Ask Ivan for details.

The wound is mostly healed and only lazyness keeps me from getting back on the saddle.

mariereid
July 20th, 2010, 01:14
Hi H; I am using your jeeps in cfs2, they put the stock jeep to shame! A rag top would be nice. Thanks for the great model.:salute:

Ivan
July 20th, 2010, 12:10
I take it you will have some provision for putting textures on the canvas top? Will it be doing anything that isn't obvious?

Looks Good!
- Ivan.

BTW, That sure was a fancy way of stabbing yourself in the back!

hubbabubba
July 20th, 2010, 20:16
Since the windshield can no longer fold, I'm thinking of having the window lift upward. But apart from that possible "movement", nothing special.

The jeep was, after all, designed first with the idea of creating a "follow-me" vehicle, so the top was always in the back of my mind. The .50 cal model was a "en passant" construction.

And, yes, the top will be painted...:mixedsmi:

smilo
July 21st, 2010, 14:16
it's coming along rather very nicely...

now, quit :sheep:

and get 'er done... :a1089:

all joking aside,
the jeep is a fantastic piece of work. :salute:
well done!!!
I am also very pleased to see
that it has been noticed
and used over at CFS2.

hubbabubba
November 24th, 2010, 12:33
Today, I worked for about three hours on the project, but nothing worth showing.:redf:

The folding windshield it took me days, weeks, to build and tweak is gone. The headache for the removal is not as strong as the one for building it, but it is there :crybaby:!

Now that I'm back on the saddle, let's hope the horse won't buck!

Tonight, we're going to see the last Harry Potter movie. I just hope I won't be thinking of my next move while watching Hermione, Ron and Harry chasing the hoxcruxes.

Ivan
November 26th, 2010, 05:54
Hey Hubbabubba,

Over the last few days, I have spent many hours working on drawings and templates and such and not created more than about 4 polygons for a project. Plenty of work, but not much to show yet....

I know the feeling.
- Ivan.

hubbabubba
November 26th, 2010, 08:22
Yesterday evening, I made polygons to "extend" the top on the sides. Although it will be textured-over, it must give the impression of cloth stretching near the supporting arches poles and sagging in-between. Well... let's just say that it needs to be redone.

But this is part of the "fun"; experimentation -> failure -> re-experimentation -> re-failure -> headaches -> re-re-experimentation -> re-re-failure -> bigger headaches (put as many iterations as you want HERE) -> solution -> elation.

The "elation" is the fun part btw...:kilroy:

hubbabubba
December 9th, 2010, 21:28
:salute:Hello!

Sides are done to my satisfaction. The stretching-draping effect along the poles is looking okay. The stretching between the center and aft main pole is pretty straight but, after examining all the pictures I could find, thats the way it is. Sagging was only evident between the windshield and middle pole. Texturing should, I hope, do the rest.

25221 The idea here is to give the basic polygons a "textile look" as much as possible before applying the painted texture. No so easy with triangles...

Ivan
December 12th, 2010, 06:30
Hi Hubbabubba,

The top looks pretty good. Texturing this thing I am sure will be fun. If you were doing this in AF99, I would ask how, but with SCASM, there probably aren't the same silly issues.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
December 17th, 2010, 14:23
Hi Hubbabubba,

The top looks pretty good. Texturing this thing I am sure will be fun. If you were doing this in AF99, I would ask how, but with SCASM, there probably aren't the same silly issues.

- Ivan.

Hi Ivan,

I had to think really way back to remember how painful AF99 texturing was... yeah:isadizzy:!

Not that texturing in SCASM is a "walk in the park" but, if you look at my textures for the jeep as an example, you are not limited at up/down - front/aft - right/left for one element. The same "component" (I use the term loosely as it makes little sense in SCASMing) can be textured in many different ways. I don't only mean the direction of the texture projection, but also the rendering (smooth/hard), the color (FS or CFS style), even the transparencies or luminosity.

Yeah... AF99 was very restrictive and was not taking advantage of the improvements made between FS5 and CFS1 texture-wise.

Ivan
December 20th, 2010, 19:42
I don't know that I find AF99 texturing particularly difficult. It is tedious, but not really all that difficult. The 256 x 128 pixel limitation is a pain but you have the same even within SCASM. Yes, there are more limitations such as the constant scale which you don't have in SCASM.....

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
March 7th, 2011, 23:29
Something worth showing;
32887 The folded poles are gone. The rear of the canvas is in place. The new extended poles are in the making. I had to research a bit before going further; there are four or five different ways summer top were made. I've chosen a "classical" style; top and rear are sewed together permanently. Contrary to what Ivan has accustomed us to, the exterior is one color only. The reason is simple; different colors are useful to find bleeds - which was done before - but stands in the way of judging if light reflections are OK. As I will be using transparencies, shaded polys have to be restricted (transparency doesn't work on them), so simple polys "well draped" must do their best to look like fabric.

Another important step was made;
32888 In previous pictures, the top was a one big component showing last. Now it is a series of smaller components attached from front to rear as shown by the yellow lines. The red line shows the "frontier" between the main jeep and the top, where the "glue-like" command changes showing order. They're still a few bleeds, but nothing I can't get rid of.

I also have to think how I will implement the windshield movement.

Ivan
March 9th, 2011, 03:58
Hi Hubbabubba,

I see you have the top in the "Canopy / High Wing" section of AF99.
:173go1:

Just kidding.
It does look pretty good. Now since you mentioned the windshield movement, what will THAT do?

For folks who don't do this kind of work, I can tell you that in AF99, adjusting shapes, flipping the craft around in the sim and going back to adjust some more is a serious amount of labour to really get things right. I would imagine that doing this in SCASM is much MORE work!
:salute:
- Ivan.

hubbabubba
March 11th, 2011, 15:24
I see you have the top in the "Canopy / High Wing" section of AF99.
You had me with that one Ivan, for an instant, I thought "He's he gone mad???".:mixedsmi:


Now since you mentioned the windshield movement, what will THAT do?
When the top was on, the only way to fold the windshield was up. But you won't find many picture of that;

33042The reasons why are quite obvious. In a summer top configuration, you had plenty of air coming from the sides. In a winter configuration with side panels, you could "roll" the doors' panels. If, like in this picture, you just opened slightly the inner frame, the two "slider-like" fixations were acting like steel daggers pointing to your face or the face of the front seat passenger. So, why not take the five minutes to remove the top and fold the entire windshield on the hood?

In "my" jeep, I will have the inner frame go all the way up in a one shot motion using the spoiler key... or not at all.

Anyone's takes on that will be appreciated while I'm working on that :a1451:windshield...

No Dice
March 11th, 2011, 15:40
Hubba, I will take it now, no need to finish it!

Looks great, but what else would you expect from the " Barbarian"

Gunna have to get our " Wizard" to make you some scrape sounds as that sucker bottoms out going over a hill at 65 mph.

Great Work

Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com (http://www.thefreeflightsite.com)

hubbabubba
March 11th, 2011, 16:12
Now, the top and rear parts are done, poles included;

33048You will notice some red from the inner section. I did that to verify for bleeds. What is less obvious is the work on the joint between top and rear panel;

33049There was a dent at the internal junction and a slight bleed of the front sides panels through the lower rear. So I added parts to the junction to "stretch" it over the back pole and added a back panel associated with top section. But there is still one place that needs work;

33050The internal back and sides are bleeding through the windshield and wipers. Here comes the decision; moving or not moving windshield?

smilo
March 11th, 2011, 16:42
You had me with that one Ivan, for an instant, I thought "He's he gone mad???".:mixedsmi:


When the top was on, the only way to fold the windshield was up. But you won't find many picture of that;

33042The reasons why are quite obvious. In a summer top configuration, you had plenty of air coming from the sides. In a winter configuration with side panels, you could "roll" the doors' panels. If, like in this picture, you just opened slightly the inner frame, the two "slider-like" fixations were acting like steel daggers pointing to your face or the face of the front seat passenger. So, why not take the five minutes to remove the top and fold the entire windshield on the hood?

In "my" jeep, I will have the inner frame go all the way up in a one shot motion using the spoiler key... or not at all.

Anyone's takes on that will be appreciated while I'm working on that :a1451:windshield...

here's my "takes";
as usual, you workmanship is incredible
and your attention to detail is superb. :salute:

please do not be offended,
but i have to say,
that you and Ivan take
anal retentive to a whole new level.
far be it for me to say,
that the minute details that you
both tear your hair out over,
would, most likely, not be noticed
by most of us.

the point is,
you spend your time fretting over and redoing minuscule discrepancies
that are unnoticeable, except when you point them out.
i completely understand the whys and wherefore's,
and that this is your hobby.
if you could only see the tedious switch parts
i am building from scratch,
you would see that i do understand.
but jeez, from a purely selfish point of view,
how long have i been waiting for a decent A-20?
heck, i even tried to build one myself,
to no avail.
patience may be a virtue,
but i will probably be dead
before i see one,
let alone, fly the damn thing.

there you have it,
that's my takes.

she is fantastic,
i commend you for a job well done.
or should i say,
almost done.

Ivan
March 11th, 2011, 18:27
Hey Smilo,
The A-20 is a VERY easy aircraft compared to the Dornier 17Z I am also working on. I haven't given up on the Dornier, but it is one seriously TEDIOUS plane to work on. That is why I take so many breaks from it.

I won't try to speak for Hubbabubba, but here is what generally drives me:

This is a hobby for me. I have never made any money from it and I doubt I ever will. I do this for enjoyment and to work on moderately challenging tasks as a change of pace from what I do for a living. When working on one problem becomes too draining, I switch topics. I don't work very efficiently because the only times I have to work are those left over when everything else is done. Generally it is between 11:00 PM and 3:00 AM. I don't do this for recognition or to see my work distributed widely. If I were concerned about that, I would probably release a lot more stuff and upload my projects to many different sites but this is the only place I have ever uploaded anything.

At one point, I was very interested in releasing my designs for everyone to play with. I don't consider that very important any more because of the many times I have seen stuff I have built end up pirated and uploaded as part of someone else's package. That can be really discouraging.

I still build stuff, but I work on whatever I feel like and if something gets completed to the point where I don't see any significant problems, I will release a new airplane. Hubbabubba once asked me as a joke what my motto was. I told him it was, "As Real as I can make it." and this is what really determines when something is finished. I don't release anything unless I am satisfied. Because of this, even though YOU can't see that little bump or dent in the contours, *I* know it is there and have to make an effort to remove it. If I don't, then I can't say I have done my best work.

I also work on CFS planes as a learning experience. There are a lot of times I will read through old NACA reports so that I can understand how things work. For someone who is aware of what I am working on or is interested in the results of a project, this can be aggravating. (Isn't that right, Smilo?) Basically, I am generally working on whatever interests me the most at the time.

Pardon me for being so long winded.
- Ivan.

hubbabubba
March 11th, 2011, 19:43
I could almost say ditto.

Like Ivan, I'm not building for others. This is, in fact, a very selfish enterprise. Some like flying and killing each others, virtually I mean, with the game. I like building for it.

But you know, smilo, that, unlike Ivan, I decided to join the "on-line" community and took the Joint-Ops course and then went to AAC, and then... you know pretty much the rest.

The reason was, again, very selfish; I wanted to know what people flying the game actually were looking for. But as I was almost forced to get back to the AAC as it was in danger of sinking, I found myself in the company of gentlemen I came to be attached to; Minuteman and you, OB!

You were, and still are, one of the best guy I ever met. Your no-nonsense approach to the game gave me a fresh perspective and, because of it, I started doing things for the multiplayer community. I don't complain as, as I see it, the future of CFS1, if there is one, is in MP games.

But, probably without knowing it, you are one of the main reason that kept me away from aircraft-making! The time I spent creating land and sea "targets" was time away from a/c, so was AAC Ripe.

So, I will make you a promise, smilo; keep in good health and you will fly a British Boston III over the Low-Countries before long.

But patience, my old friend, patience.

smilo
March 11th, 2011, 20:35
thank you gentlemen for the confirmation
and especially for not getting irritated with my comments.
i have the utmost respect for both of you
and take great delight in watching the progress of your projects.
as far as i'm concerned, you are both masters of the craft
and stand on par with the best developers CFS1 has seen.

it is true that i do get frustrated,
but to be honest, it is more with myself.
i feel that i could create a quality aircraft,
if only i could keep focused on the task at hand.
i always seem to somehow get sidetracked
and never finish anything.
my life is filled with projects in various stages of completion.
many haven't even made it past the thought process,
many others past the drawing board.
and then there are those laying around
that will never be finished.

now, as i've said before, i am working on physical controllers.
i already have a flaps, gear and spoiler levers,
and a separate teamspeak push to talk button.
my current project is an auto-pilot array
with 4 knobs that push to toggle ALT, HDG, VS and AS on/off.
these knobs will also increase when twisted clockwise
and decrease when twisted counterclockwise.

i could go out and buy these knobs,
but they are about $20US each.
way to much for an old tight wad like me.

then, there will be the push buttons for MASTER, APR, NAV and BC.
after that is finished, it will be COM1, NAV1 and ADF radios.

small wonder i'm only slightly crazy.

oops...sorry Hubba,
i've hijacked your thread...again. :redf:

hubbabubba
March 12th, 2011, 13:19
it is true that i do get frustrated,
but to be honest, it is more with myself.
i feel that i could create a quality aircraft,
if only i could keep focused on the task at hand.
i always seem to somehow get sidetracked
and never finish anything.
my life is filled with projects in various stages of completion.
many haven't even made it past the thought process,
many others past the drawing board.
and then there are those laying around
that will never be finished.
I call it the "mental cramp". Simply not feeling up to it. A bit like the writer's "blank page" syndrome.

Others are (the list is by no means complete btw...);
The "snag"; technical difficulty that needs some thinking before tinkering.
The "dead end"; doing something, sometimes for months, realizing it won't work.
The "what's next"; as many avenues to go on are open, trying to figure out those that are potentially "dead ends".
The "you have reach maximum possible size", only happened to me once since I switched to SCASM with St-Leu d'Esserent monastic church;

33084And only a handful of AAC players, and Ivan, have seen it. The orchard on the right is in need of apple trees and the hole thing should be elevated. Loss of time? Not in my book! This was a learning experience that has been useful for the jeep and will serve me with the Harvard MkII and, eventually, a Boston MkIII.

The "research phase"; the Taifun came to live after two years of intensive research. The jeep took me about three months. It is always an ongoing process.

And this list does not include "real life" things that keeps you away from the PC like illnesses, death of a relative, household chores, ....


oops...sorry Hubba,
i've hijacked your thread...again. :redf:
Not at all smilo. In fact, I appreciate any comments you have to make. Same thing for others; I would appreciate any inputs you may have (just stay polite!:violent:).

No Dice
March 12th, 2011, 19:49
Sorry, Hubba ( the Barbarian) the" members of the round table" have no available seats left for a member called "frusrated". I will be happy to take that project off your hands.( the Castle) I know what You and Ivan , and others work on. All the while attemptng to make everthing perfect...that will drive most people to drinking.

So I say to you, Grab a Beer or drink of your choice and "les bon temp rouler"

Ya'll stay safe and have a great weekend ( whats left of it )

Dave

hubbabubba
March 14th, 2011, 21:25
Hello:wavey:

Since my last post, a few things have changed...33245... the back and internal sides of the jeep no longer bleed through the windshield. I copied/pasted the upper part of it (from under the windows to the top) in the top section. Ivan uses this method quite frequently in his models. If I don't make the "openable" windshield, it may well stay that way. The top colors have changed too; they are more in tune with actual canvas that were in the sand/khaki tones. I did that simply to reduce the weird looks of models when, for a second, they're loading textures in a sudden change of perspective.

The poles are now textured...33246... recycling the old ones. This is a case of "thinking before tinkering"; poles, if you have followed this thread from the start, were integrated from the start, at first simply to "hang" the canvas on them. Using a special texturing command, I was able to stretch the horizontal poles of the texture BMP along the narrow poles canted right and left at angles. The joints between the different sections of the poles are seamless (5). For your benefit, I have left the back section attached to the rear box in green (4). The poles are textured inside and out, except for the external sections under the canvas (1 & 3). One of the toughest part was the junction of the main back and front poles (2). These are made by 5 layers of textures arranged in sequence. An 8 vertices part that was inflated to 24 on both sides! But the end result is quite satisfactory; not a perfect match to the real thing, but close enough. The internal poles are textured...33247... with the same piece of BMP and, being close to the gamer, they had to be perfect. The same technique as for outside poles was used. The bitmap sections used were "cut" approximately to maintain the density (I discovered that long sections covered by short bitmaps were thinning to the point of showing transparencies!). It doesn't have to be to the pixel. As far as I can remember, AF99 paint tool only does rectangular application, so to get a canted pole like mine, you had to draw it canted. With a 256x256 pixel texture, the poles would look jagged with the pixel constraint.

While I'm still juggling with the "windshield question", I will try texturing the rest of the top.

Ivan
March 16th, 2011, 03:54
Hello Hubbabubba,
As expected, the Jeep looks great. I had to read your post over and over again to figure out exactly what you did, but it does make sense in a way. (I don't do my final assembly in SCASM, so I don't hit the same issues.) No argument about SCASM offering lots more possibilities. Personally, I am just not ready to go there yet.

There are a couple things I see and these really qualify as nit-picking:
In your second screenshot, I see just above the number 3 what looks like a mismatch of vertices of all the polygons that come together at that point.
Also in the second screenshot, I see (and I don't know if this is intentional) above the back of the driver's seat and just below the serial number on the windshield frame what looks like a small gap between the windshield frame and the dash.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
March 16th, 2011, 13:05
Hello Ivan,

If you had to reread my post, it must be a bit confusing for the others. Sorry about that. I'm trying to stay as simple as I can. That's why I put pictures in. Vocabulary is somewhat confusing, even for me!:redf: For example; "parts" are polygons in AF99, they're normally all in the same plan, for me "parts" are simple construction not necessarily planar and may have two or three (or much more) polygons in them, which would make them "components" in AF99. For more complex parts attached by glue-like commands, I use the word "section". Here, the top itself, part of the back, upper poles and upper windshield and wipers are forming a section.


I see just above the number 3 what looks like a mismatch of vertices of all the polygons that come together at that point. Optical illusion. The "mismatch" is the left corner of the front pole.


I see (and I don't know if this is intentional) above the back of the driver's seat and just below the serial number on the windshield frame what looks like a small gap between the windshield frame and the dash.This is in the original jeep as well. Not really intentional, but left there because it fits what research told me; rubberized felt used for junctions of windshield to dash tended to worn rapidly and loose its tight fit. In winter condition, it would soak-in water, freeze and crumble or be torn off when lowering the windshield. In summer, it would melt and sag. Many jeeps had lost their felt within a month or two of hard service. The same thing would happen with the rubberized felt between the internal "fold-up" window frame and the external "fold-down" windshield. One more reason not to open it that way.

P.S.- The "serial number" is in fact reading TP 35, which means "tire pressure is 35 lbs per square inch". This reminder appears on the low part of the windshield facing the front passenger (as in the picture), on the sides of both front fenders and just over the rear tires on the external box. The War Department was apparently very preoccupied with tires longevity!

Ivan
March 17th, 2011, 04:14
Hi Hubbabubba,
I guess the difference here is that since I also build stuff, I am actually trying to understand exactly what you did. I don't believe everyone is actually reading your message for content. The terminology gets a bit confusing which is why I try to avoid using the words "Part" and "Component" unless I am specifically referring to AF99 meanings. I call other things "Pieces" to make the distinction.

When I want to show a gap in panels, I do something similar to what you do here, I move the vertices of a canopy frame 0.01 foot so that there is a barely noticeable gap. I can't do that with a texture because each pixel is generally at least three times wider than that and with the smoothing, the edges look a bit fuzzy.

Very Cool Jeep!
- Ivan.

P.S. Is the next Jeep going to carry a Recoilless Rifle?

Ivan
March 18th, 2011, 11:59
Here is a pretty good profile shot of a Soft Top Jeep. I found this when looking through photographs from the 320th Bomb Group (flying Marauders). My neighbour was a pilot in this unit.

http://320thbg.org/phpersonnel_84.html

Hubbabubba's Jeep looks pretty close....

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
March 18th, 2011, 13:09
Here is a pretty good profile shot of a Soft Top Jeep. I found this when looking through photographs from the 320th Bomb Group (flying Marauders). My neighbour was a pilot in this unit.

http://320thbg.org/phpersonnel_84.html

Hubbabubba's Jeep looks pretty close....

- Ivan.

Note the front pole; it is independent from the rear pole! First time I see this configuration. Usually, the front pole was attached to rear-main pole, forming a "Y" from the sides. Firsts jeeps had no front poles; the top would literally hang on the driver and front passenger's heads! When it was raining, the top would sag even more and fill with water. Not very practical. Maybe this jeep had a single rear pole and was "field modified"?

Concerning the recoilless rifle; I knew about a 75mm recoilless gun. Is it the same?

I've been pretty much away from the keyboard the past two days. With her retirement severance pay, my wife decided to replace all Televisions with HDTV. Transporting three HDTVs (37", 26" and 22") for a mile and a half on a little two-wheels hand cart (we no longer have a car) was tough enough, but removing the old ones was excruciating, especially the 26" on top of the fridge!

My work had reached a dead-end from which I had to "back-track" anyway. I had made a "tentative" bitmap for the top and, thinking I could go faster, I started applying that texture without the intermediate grid placement. Bad idea. Some of my polygons were inverted right-left, some were inverted top-bottom, some were both.

So I went back to using a grid for placement. For now, only the large squares on the top of the top are placed;

33451

The sides are all made of triangles, with the exceptions of the corner poles and lower covered poles. The panels between row 6 and 5 are showing some distortion, probably caused by a mixture of the concavity and the irregular trapezoidal form of the panels. I will advise if it shows upon texturing for good.

hubbabubba
March 26th, 2011, 08:40
With everyday life in the way, and a bit of R&R on top :sleep:, I haven't done much on the jeep. But, checking for texture application, I discovered a bleed;

33964 This appears on both sides. It is due to the fact that glue-like plan between front seats section and rear box section is canted. I missed it on first inspection because it is only there from this very particular elevation and azimuth angles, give and take a couple of degrees. The "repair" will probably consist of a simple elongation of the external upper poles. No need to change the internal view, which is lucky; otherwise, I would have had to redo upper and lower poles to make a "middle pole" associated with front seats section, as internal poles would have bled through the back of the top.

Ivan
March 26th, 2011, 17:31
Hello Hubbabubba,

Only YOU would have noticed this in your own creation, but now that you do, you NEED to fix it for your own sanity! Did you ever figure out why the textures were skewed a bit? I would venture to guess that when you adjusted the pixel locations of the vertices for texturing in SCASM that you picked the wrong vertices to move around. I have no idea what your code looks like, but that is the only thing that makes sense to me from what little I can see.

I make this comment about sanity because for the last couple of nights, I have been rebuilding the canopy on my A6M2 Zero and at 1156 polygons, I am bumping up against AF99 limits. I have just done a serious amount of rebuilding and my guess is that no one out there would have ever noticed the difference.

Awaiting the next screenshot.
- UBAH

hubbabubba
July 11th, 2011, 07:13
Just a few words to tell you that the upper poles bleeds are gone, but not the distortion issue. I've tried many things, but none would work. If it was anything else than a canvas, this would be embarrassing, but, at least for now, I will go on with applying textures and get back to that annoyance later.

Ivan
July 13th, 2011, 08:13
Hello Hubbabubba,

Glad you are making progress. I am having loads of fun also.

BTW, This isn't very far off topic, but in your "AIR" file for the Jeep, do you have a means for making the vehicle back up? That is a problem that I never actually addressed in my version of the AIR file. I am thinking this might be done with Propeller efficiencies, but haven't tried yet.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
July 13th, 2011, 13:10
Hello Hubbabubba,

Glad you are making progress. I am having loads of fun also.

BTW, This isn't very far off topic, but in your "AIR" file for the Jeep, do you have a means for making the vehicle back up? That is a problem that I never actually addressed in my version of the AIR file. I am thinking this might be done with Propeller efficiencies, but haven't tried yet.

- Ivan.

Hi Ivan,

Nope, the jeep is going forward only. Maybe it can be done and, if someone can do it, it's probably you. For myself, I have abandoned any hope of making it work.:isadizzy:

Ivan
July 13th, 2011, 13:19
Hi Hubbabubba,

I may try out some stuff with Propeller Efficiencies later. That is what I was using to boost the acceleration from a very low torque engine in the Jeep. The numbers I picked were directly from the Gear Ratios of the Transmission and Differential. The problem is that I need also to figure out how to run Manual Pitch (Not RPM) Control to make this happen.

A thought occurred to me a little while ago: I am guessing that your location of the vertices of your Jeep's Top are all EXACTLY mirrored from Left to Right. Do you suppose that they need to be offset somewhat because of the smoothing / rendering of the actual simulator? I know that I need generally to move textures off center by around 1/2 pixel width to 1 pixel width to get things to look correct.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
July 14th, 2011, 13:45
A thought occurred to me a little while ago: I am guessing that your location of the vertices of your Jeep's Top are all EXACTLY mirrored from Left to Right. Do you suppose that they need to be offset somewhat because of the smoothing / rendering of the actual simulator? I know that I need generally to move textures off center by around 1/2 pixel width to 1 pixel width to get things to look correct.

I had the same suspicion. After verification, this is not what's happening; distortion is even worst when smoothing is removed. The problem is with the rendering engine that has trouble in stretching a slightly canted trapezoid. The same effect appears in other panels, but is less apparent. I will probably end-up subdividing surfaces in smaller triangles where needed.

Ivan
July 26th, 2011, 04:34
I don't see the canted trapezoid, or rather the specific canted trapezoid you discuss. With the method that is used to locate textures, do you suppose that smaller polygons would actually make the thing look worse because each vertex needs to be located on a pixel even if it doesn't quite match?

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
July 26th, 2011, 23:23
I don't see the canted trapezoid, or rather the specific canted trapezoid you discuss. With the method that is used to locate textures, do you suppose that smaller polygons would actually make the thing look worse because each vertex needs to be located on a pixel even if it doesn't quite match?

- Ivan.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33451&d=1300482109

The troublesome polygon is the one containing the lower G6 to J6 squares. If I can stop sitting on my hands and move along, I will try some others tricks I still have in my bag. For the moment, that trapezoid (the front is slightly narrower than the rear) is made of four vertices that are only referenced in a Point declaration. It is also slightly canted as the two forward vertices are lower than the two rear ones. Note that other polygons have, in some cases, slight distortions.

I think that, for now, I will simply go on mapping all surfaces and return back later to that annoyance if it shows badly when the "real" texture is applied. It is, after all, a piece of fabric and it would not be so bad to see it flutter a bit.

If I ever resort to sub-dividing that polygon into many, I expect the distortion to be reduced accordingly. Of course, all is in the way division is made.

Ivan
July 27th, 2011, 04:21
Do you notice the same issue happening with the G7-J7 line? I am guessing that your intent was to texture in a manner that the lines are all straight. Notie that the fore-aft lines are wider at the front and not just on the trapezoid you mentioned? I believe the front vertices of your polygon need to be moved out one pixel on each side....

Restated a bit better: The vertices are overlayed onto a particular pixel. I believe they need to be overlayed on the next pixel further out on each side of the texture.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
August 8th, 2011, 09:36
These two screen capture should help you understand what I'm doing, why I'm doing it and, most of all, why I can't do it another way.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4964/progressvm.jpg

Above, you can see the three triangular polygons forming the left side of the forward top panel at he rear. Vertices 0, 1 and 2 are sharing the same texture positions as the rear central trapezoid polygon (0 and 1) and one of the triangular polygon of the mid section (2). Vertices 3 and 4 positions have to be determined, usually with EOD texturing tool and a bit of fiddling around for adjustment.

The texturing technique I'm using can be described as extending a texture like a piece of stretchy fabric, pinning it to the corresponding vertices. The code line in SCASM reads like this;

TexPoly( a pnum1 bx1 by1 ... pnumn bxn byn )

Where "a" stands for "automatic", "pnum" for the number of that vertex in the preceding points' declaration, and "bx" and "by" for the bitmap coordinates. In our example, it could read;

TexPoly( a 0 159 153 1 163 163 3 165 153 )

Where vertex 0 would correspond to x= 159 and y= 153, (that line is fictitious btw...), vertex 1 to x= 163 and y= 163, and finally, vertex 3 to x= 165 and y= 153. You also have to remember that SCASM reads bitmaps with the top at the bottom and the bottom at the top. Simple, isn't?

Unfortunately, this method also, sometimes, introduces distortion. A simple way to correct that would be to use another method that can be best described as cutting a rectangular piece of texture as wide and large as the widest and largest dimensions of the polygon to be covered, letting the rendering engine "snip" the extra texture. The code line would look like this;

TexPoly( abL xmin ymin xmax ymax pnum1 pnumn )

Where "abL" stands for "automatic, ratio-less, even", followed by the two opposite corner coordinates and the list of points to be covered. If the rectangle is a square, ratio is preserved. But otherwise, it adapts to the ratio created by the rectangle, using the texture to the fullest. For the same polygon as above, it would look like this;

TexPoly( abL 159 153 165 163 0 1 3 )

If I need to, this is probably what I will do with the distorted trapezoids, but only after having placed all my textures. For now, I must keep these textured polygons because they're also being used as "markers" for the contiguous-ones.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4486/progress1p.jpg

As I had to suspend activities for a while (read; I procrastinated a lot...), finding where I was when I stopped isn't that easy. To that effect, I simply colored polygons until I get the one I want to work with. Above, you see the right side upper polygon of the same left section I've been working on in the precedent screen capture. Again, vertices 0 and 1 are already at known positions since they are sharing the same coordinates as the right side central trapezoid. Only vertex 3 needs to be found. I can use again EOD but, since I have the left side done, I could transpose since polygons are symmetrical. A bit of fiddling around will probably be necessary, but this is part of the "fun". Grid and lines come handy for that.

Ivan
August 10th, 2011, 16:54
How about building the top in AF99 and seeing how IT textures the component? I know it won't work for the sides but that does not appear to be where you are having the distortion.

- Ivan.

No Dice
August 10th, 2011, 17:08
You guys are the best and funniest, The jeep is going to be great...and the Free Flight Site would luv first dibs for it's all new (coming soon) Hubba collection. But Hubba, please finish it or I will never be able to get you to create add ons for Corsica and Italy 1941.

I salute the two of you, ya"ll are the best :salute:

Dave

hubbabubba
August 10th, 2011, 21:47
How about building the top in AF99 and seeing how IT textures the component? (...)

- Ivan.

Mmmmm... why didn't I think of that?!:redf:

It's worth a try. I will only do it with top panels, mostly out of curiosity. I've already tried the "definitive" texture on it and it looks great. Back panels, where I'm at right now, are giving me the same distortion... and they're almost vertical.


(...)
The jeep is going to be great...
(...)


The jeep already exist in two versions and is great indeed... if I may say so myself:icon_lol:!

Cuttles
August 11th, 2011, 04:23
Hi!
Am new to cfs1, have a new copy but haven'y installed yet (CFS3 mad! at momemnt).

But am fascinated in what youve done, will use it in future and enjoy. I plan to run all CFS1,2, and ! Am super keen on the whole genre. CFS1 has a special 'something'. Yet to try the fs98 g
un 'port over'.

keep on trucking! hope recover well.:guinness:

Ivan
August 12th, 2011, 12:42
Hi icutler,

Hubbabubba's Jeep is about as good as it gets for CFS. You should install your game and try out his Jeep in the earlier versions. There already is a "Just Plain" Jeep and one that has a .50 Cal Ma Deuce on a pintle mount.

This ground vehicle gives a different perspective on scenery and touring.

BTW, Welcome!
- Ivan.

No Dice
August 12th, 2011, 14:29
Welcome to CFS1 icutler,
Please see some of Hubbas and Ivans great works at the Free Flight Site
They are the best of artists and pretty good people to boot.

Dave http://www.thefreeflightsite.com :salute:

hubbabubba
August 15th, 2011, 08:52
Hi Ivan.
I was going to try letting AF99 texture the top when I realized that my texture bitmaps are not compatible with AF99. I use the whole 256x256 surface rather than only half of it like AF99 does and, in this specific case, the top split that middle line, leaving left and right for eventual side panels of the "winter top" version.

But I did look into my Taifun wings' textures and found nothing that could help me here as it does exactly what I'm already doing. The only difference was in the use of an "old" bitmap command (Bitmap instead of Loadbitmap). AF99 also uses profusely the commands POverride and Smoothing( 0 ) in what SCASM author, Manfred Moldenhauer, describe as way to reduce distortion from close observation. But I can't honestly say that it makes much of a difference. I also took the occasion to transform all the points' declaration tables (Point commands into vectored tables VecPoints and to "smooth" surfaces (from TexPoly to ShadedTexPoly), which gave me this;

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2003/progressbefore.jpg

The smoothing effect already gives more "rounded" looks, which is especially noticeable at the rear. But the switching to the "real" texture is the "proof in the Pudding" I was looking for;

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4777/progressafter.jpg

To say that I was pleased would be quite an understatement. I'm now working on the back panel which, incidentally, could not benefit of the smoothing technique as it involves transparencies.

Welcome icutler:ernae:! If you install CFS1, you will note that my jeep is at its best. After all, this is the flight sim for which it was designed!

Hello No Dice,

So, you want to "boot" Ivan and me? This one needs explaining...:kilroy:

smilo
August 15th, 2011, 18:05
"So, you want to "boot" Ivan and me? This one needs explaining...:kilroy:"

it's okay, H. it was a compliment.
it is an old americanizm....i think.
i don't know where it came from,
but "to boot" used at the end of a sentence
is like saying, "also", "plus", or "on top of that".
it has nothing to do with a kick in the pants,
starting up a computer or ejecting someone.

hubbabubba
August 15th, 2011, 23:26
"So, you want to "boot" Ivan and me? This one needs explaining...:kilroy:"

it's okay, H. it was a compliment.
it is an old americanizm....i think.
i don't know where it came from,
but "to boot" used at the end of a sentence
is like saying, "also", "plus", or "on top of that".
it has nothing to do with a kick in the pants,
starting up a computer or ejecting someone.

Thank you for the precision, smilo. I thought it was something like that but, for a non-native like me, it sounded a bit funny, you will admit.:jump:

I prefer that to a kick in the teeth :isadizzy:!

Ivan
August 16th, 2011, 12:45
Hey Hubbabubba,

I thot you Canadiens always said "a boot"....

Glad you got some kind of solution to that fabric top. I don't really mess around much with SCASM, so I am not quite sure what the code difference implies. Glad it worked though.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
August 20th, 2011, 08:57
Hey Hubbabubba,

I thot you Canadiens always said "a boot"....
(...)
I've been trying for days to make sense of that sentence. When do we say "a boot"?

_________________


Now that the back is done, I'm almost tempted to play the 7 differences game with you. First, the back as I made it first;

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/281/progressback.jpg

Then, the back a few days later;

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7695/progressback1.jpg

Actually a lot was changed! This comes to prove that efforts and hard work are no necessarily evident.

The first back was made "from the hip" so to speak. I made a very squared texture and simply applied it by eyeballing the end results after each attempts. It gave me a rough idea of what had to be done. But a test made by applying a texture with horizontal black lines at one pixel intervals revealed that the "stretching" up-down was unequal. After "painting" each polygons of the back red and white alternately, I took a screen capture, resized it to fit my "grid BMP" and used it to place the texture, this time bending the sides to fit the back. In other words, I made the texture to fit the polygons rather than made the polygons fit the texture.

It was also the occasion to stretch the back over the rear box. In doing so, I also had to extend the strap retaining it over that "new" piece. This was done with two polygons;

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7393/progressbacka.jpg

The first (maroon) represent the lower overlapping portion, the other (yellowish) is the strap. Straps has to be done independently because they come from another bitmap (actually, the same bitmap formerly used to "strap" the folded poles!). I say "they" because the right-side one is also made, even if it is behind the spare tire. This was all done by hand without using AF99 btw...

The blue triangle shows where two small polygons forming the folded sides were made, again by hand. They're barely visible, but they're there!

Before switching to the interior, I need to apply the stencils CAUTION: LEFT HAND DRIVE NO SIGNAL on the right and MAX SPEED 40 M.P.H. on the left.

But I also need to mow the lawn... so this will have to wait!

smilo
August 20th, 2011, 09:10
46387http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Ivan http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=617258#post617258)

Hey Hubbabubba,

I thot you Canadiens always said "a boot"....
(...)
I've been trying for days to make sense of that sentence. When do we say "a boot"?

oh my gaud,
i wish there was a rolling on the ground,
laughing my a$$ off icon!
(edit: found one)
that exchange is hilarious

Ivan, i don't think French Canadians,
like Hubba, say aboot, aye?

smilo
August 20th, 2011, 09:28
seriously, on one hand,
one can't help but wonder,
why bother spending so much time
on such intricate details?

but then, one remembers,
this is who you are,
that this is your hobby,
and this is fun for you.

this is a prime example
of your fantastic workmanship
and meticulous attention to detail.

my hat if off to you Sir. :salute:

----------:kilroy:------------
it's all aboot the passion.

Ivan
August 21st, 2011, 03:48
Hi Smilo,

I can understand what Hubbabubba is doing. There is stuff in all of the models that the author sees is wrong and needs fixed but no one else would see it. Although I understand it though, I don't actually see much of what he is describing even with the specific issues highlighted. I don't see the alternative. That happened a lot with the tutorial I just finished. I would cut a couple polygons because I needed to and see that the outline of the part was "Ruined". When viewing it in the simulator rather than AF99, I simply could not see any significant differences even when looking for the issues. Hubbabubba knows the fix is here and is an improvement. That is all that counts here.

Hi Hubbabubba,

One of the things about Canadians that we Americans make fun of is that typically y'all mispronounce the word "About". We pronounce it "ABOWT", and y'all often pronounce it "ABOOT". This was just a target of opportunity.

- Ivan.

hubbabubba
August 21st, 2011, 07:19
Hello Ivan,

Funny to see how perception is a cultural thing. French-Canadians do not say "aboot", as far as I know. Ask smilo if you don't believe me, he had the "pleasure" of listening to my mellow voice quite often. I'm not saying that I don't have an accent, but "aboot" is not part of it. Maybe the French do say "aboot"...?

The only person I ever heard say "aboot" was, God is my witness, Scottish! What aboot that, lad?

smilo
August 21st, 2011, 09:40
"Ask smilo if you don't believe me, he had the "pleasure" of listening to my mellow voice quite often."

hell yeah, i'm a flippin' expert!!!
...and this from a guy
that failed 9th grade french!
miss goodowitz would be proud :icon32:

i maybe mistaken,
but i think the dialect may be
more from the scandinavian
and northern european influence.
definitely not french.
the accent seems very prevalent
out here on the west coast.
another biggie is the addition
of aye? to a sentence.

you gotta love it, i sure do.

~~~~~~:engel016:~~~~
i'm awfull thankful us 'mercans are so damn perfect

smilo
August 26th, 2011, 08:35
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2003/progressbefore.jpg


...:kilroy:
hello Hubba,
sorry for being way off topic,
but could you please direct me to the file
you used to help lay out the top above?
i have seen something like it before,
but can't recall where.
thanks in advance

hubbabubba
August 26th, 2011, 18:41
hello Hubba,
sorry for being way off topic,
but could you please direct me to the file
you used to help lay out the top above?
i have seen something like it before,
but can't recall where.
thanks in advance

I used EOD (Easy Object Designer), which you can find at http://www.thefreeflightsite.com/Eod.zip at No Dice site.

Eventually, I will show how to use it in my thread "New ways to have fun with CFS1", but the basic idea is to "paint" a wall or a floor (or an irregular surface) and copy n' paste the code in my own SCX file.

smilo
August 26th, 2011, 19:26
i'm talking about the
1A 2A 3A 4A...
1B 2B 3B 4B...
1C 2C 3C 4C...
1D 2D 3D 2D...
...and so on
grid layout bmp in the screen shot.
i didn't see it in ECO.

hubbabubba
August 27th, 2011, 07:52
i'm talking about the
1A 2A 3A 4A...
1B 2B 3B 4B...
1C 2C 3C 4C...
1D 2D 3D 2D...
...and so on
grid layout bmp in the screen shot.
i didn't see it in ECO.

Oooops!:confused:

Here you go...:kilroy:

smilo
August 27th, 2011, 09:03
that's what i'm talking about...thank you. :salute:
where did you get it?
or did you make it?

edit; 4:45pdt,
dropped the vertical bmp into a project
and it does exactly what i had hoped.
once again, many thanks.

----------:kilroy:----------
now, back to the jeep

hubbabubba
August 27th, 2011, 16:41
that's what i'm talking about...thank you. :salute:
where did you get it?
or did you make it?

edit; 4:45pdt,
dropped the vertical bmp into a project
and it does exactly what i had hoped.
once again, many thanks.

----------:kilroy:----------
now, back to the jeep

I made them way back then when I was working with AF99. The originals were PCX files btw. I've found them useful over time to get textures aligned and proportional to each others.

If they can help others... so be it!:applause:

Have fun smilo and let the creative juices flow!:ernae: